Medical schools with condensed preclinical curriculums

[golong18839]

Does anyone have a list of the medical schools currently offering condensed preclinical curriculums? Preferably only 1 year preclinical curriculums? And does anyone know how long these schools have had these types of curriculums? Were they established recently or further back? Are they reliable? Thanks.

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[Icebird]

NovaMD, NYULI, and UM MD/MPH all discussed curriculum changes for next year that involved shorter pre-clinical periods than what would be considered traditional.

 

[Ultimax]

Dell medical school has condensed curriculum in 1 year

 

[Engrailed]

Colorado also moving to a 1.5 starting next year.

 

[catnip12]

UW SMPH is 1.5 years. Pretty sure U Iowa - Carver is too

 

[Dr. Vinnie Boombatz]

Drexel and Downstate are 18 months preclinical

 

[907914]

Umich, Duke, Harvard, and Vandy are currently the only ones that have a 1 year preclinical. And oh my gosh is it a game changer and is it hopefully the way everyone goes. Because it is NICE:

 

[ihoop24]

Colorado also moving to a 1.5 starting next year.

I thought they were changing it to 1 year?

 

[Engrailed]

I thought they were changing it to 1 year?

You may be right. I just know they were moving it to a shorter curriculum. Now that I think about it, 1 yr sounds right to me

 

[BorderlineQueen]

You may be right. I just know they were moving it to a shorter curriculum. Now that I think about it, 1 yr sounds right to me

So I have a question about these 1 yr pre-clinical years. Do they jam two years into one? Or do they only teach relevant information in the 1 year pre-clinical year?

 

[TheDataKing]

Wake Forest is 18 months

 

[TheDataKing]

I am wondering this too

I've heard they cut out the repeated material + you take step after clerkships so you have a broader knowledge base

 

[Dr. Anonymouss]

Umich, Duke, Harvard, and Vandy are currently the only ones that have a 1 year preclinical. And oh my gosh is it a game changer and is it hopefully the way everyone goes. Because it is NICE:

Doesn’t this worry you in terms of boards?

 

[ChicagoBear]

UW SMPH is 1.5 years. Pretty sure U Iowa - Carver is too

I can confirm Carver is 1.5 years.

 

[theKingLT]

Doesn’t this worry you in terms of boards?

I believe they do step 1 after core clerkships. Idk about the schools specifically with 1 year preclinicals, but other schools that have switched to taking step 1 after clerkships have seen an increase in scores

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[907914]

Doesn’t this worry you in terms of boards?

Based on Harvard, Duke, Vandy, and UMich all scoring almost an SD above the National average, no it does not worry me in the slightest.

 

[DNAJB6]

Based on Harvard, Duke, Vandy, and UMich all scoring almost an SD above the National average, no it does not worry me in the slightest.

Board scores obviously matter, but it is impossible for any ONE exam to measure everything you need to know as a physician. As a result, I am curious whether it affects students' performance in residency and as future physicians above and beyond their board scores. On another note, those schools are among the "higher" ranked schools that have higher incoming stats. You would expect the applicant pool to do better than average. The highest scoring students on standardized tests coming in tend to be the highest scoring students going out. Learning to take and "game" a standardized test is an acquired skill that may not correlate perfectly with attainment of knowledge.

Does anyone know what if anything (other than redundant material) is being removed from the curriculum? I would worry about trying to cram everything into a single pre-clinical year.

 

[907914]

Board scores obviously matter, but it is impossible for any ONE exam to measure everything you need to know as a physician. As a result, I am curious whether it affects students' performance in residency and as future physicians above and beyond their board scores. On another note, those schools are among the "higher" ranked schools that have higher incoming stats. You would expect the applicant pool to do better than average. The highest scoring students on standardized tests coming in tend to be the highest scoring students going out. Learning to take and "game" a standardized test is an acquired skill that may not correlate perfectly with attainment of knowledge.

Does anyone know what if anything (other than redundant material) is being removed from the curriculum? I would worry about trying to cram everything into a single pre-clinical year.

Redundant and professor specific information as well as excessively clinical related stuff as you get to see that in M2. Basically learn normal and pathological at the same time so you don’t have to relearn the normal. Also getting rid of a lot of minutiae (such as not memorizing the enzymes in the Krebs cycle).

However, you make a great point that the ‘top schools’ already have the highest scoring test takers and are predisposed to doing well. So genuinely, curriculum literally may not even matter. I don’t know, I would need to see some literature because I feel like curriculum SHOULD matter, but maybe not?

 

[DNAJB6]

@LizzyM @Goro @gonnif @Catalystik @gyngyn @Moko - Any insights on curriculum changes and what is cut? What can a prospective student concerned about omissions do? Is there a general pattern as to what may be omitted or is it merely restructuring all of the existing 18 month curriculum?

So genuinely, curriculum literally may not even matter. I don’t know, I would need to see some literature because I feel like curriculum SHOULD matter, but maybe not?

I wish there was some longitudinal data on this. I like the idea of stream lining things and having clerk ships before Step I, but I feel like a little redundancy can be good to reinforce things. I also don't like the idea of completely removing topics. I am a non-traditional student who put off applying to medical school for personal/medical reasons, and I remember well when the schools were first moving to a 1.5 year curriculum from 2 years. I remember that one school remarked on its website at one point that it did cut some topics like some neck anatomy topics and reserved it as a fourth year elective for students that would need it (e.g. head and neck surgeons, etc.). Imagine what may be cut going from 18 months down to one year. To me the idea of omitting information is terrifying regardless of your ultimate specialty. Some schools apparently shared my concern. I think Wash U in St. Louis is finally transitioning to an 18 month curriculum just now.

All I can say is that the length of the pre-clinical curriculum will be a factor for me if I am fortunate enough to have multiple acceptances. I don't know that a one year curriculum is necessarily superior. The thought of cramming everything into one year makes the idea of "pre-studying" for medical school by reading textbooks ahead of time sound less crazy to me (once MCAT and apps are all in order of course).

 

[907914]

@LizzyM @Goro @gonnif @Catalystik @gyngyn @Moko - Any insights on curriculum changes and what is cut? What can a prospective student concerned about omissions do? Is there a general pattern as to what may be omitted or is it merely restructuring all of the existing 18 month curriculum?



I wish there was some longitudinal data on this. I like the idea of stream lining things and having clerk ships before Step I, but I feel like a little redundancy can be good to reinforce things. I also don't like the idea of completely removing topics. I am a non-traditional student who put off applying to medical school for personal/medical reasons, and I remember well when the schools were first moving to a 1.5 year curriculum from 2 years. I remember that one school remarked on its website at one point that it did cut some topics like some neck anatomy topics and reserved it as a fourth year elective for students that would need it (e.g. head and neck surgeons, etc.). Imagine what may be cut going from 18 months down to one year. To me the idea of omitting information is terrifying regardless of your ultimate specialty. Some schools apparently shared my concern. I think Wash U in St. Louis is finally transitioning to an 18 month curriculum just now.

All I can say is that the length of the pre-clinical curriculum will be a factor for me if I am fortunate enough to have multiple acceptances. I don't know that a one year curriculum is necessarily superior. The thought of cramming everything into one year makes the idea of "pre-studying" for medical school by reading textbooks ahead of time sound less crazy to me (once MCAT and apps are all in order of course).

I don’t think prestudying would be necessary. Almost a thousand students a year are doing just fine on the one year preclinical and from my observations the students at 1 year preclinical schools seemed about as stressed or less stressed than those at traditional 2 year institutions....It all seems to boil down to everyone only knows what they experience.

 

[xkcd6330]

@LizzyM @Goro @gonnif @Catalystik @gyngyn @Moko - Any insights on curriculum changes and what is cut? What can a prospective student concerned about omissions do? Is there a general pattern as to what may be omitted or is it merely restructuring all of the existing 18 month curriculum?



I wish there was some longitudinal data on this. I like the idea of stream lining things and having clerk ships before Step I, but I feel like a little redundancy can be good to reinforce things. I also don't like the idea of completely removing topics. I am a non-traditional student who put off applying to medical school for personal/medical reasons, and I remember well when the schools were first moving to a 1.5 year curriculum from 2 years. I remember that one school remarked on its website at one point that it did cut some topics like some neck anatomy topics and reserved it as a fourth year elective for students that would need it (e.g. head and neck surgeons, etc.). Imagine what may be cut going from 18 months down to one year. To me the idea of omitting information is terrifying regardless of your ultimate specialty. Some schools apparently shared my concern. I think Wash U in St. Louis is finally transitioning to an 18 month curriculum just now.

All I can say is that the length of the pre-clinical curriculum will be a factor for me if I am fortunate enough to have multiple acceptances. I don't know that a one year curriculum is necessarily superior. The thought of cramming everything into one year makes the idea of "pre-studying" for medical school by reading textbooks ahead of time sound less crazy to me (once MCAT and apps are all in order of course).

A super common complaint from med students is that lectures contain way too much info about niche basic science research that isn’t clinically relevant (e.g. professors talking about their own specific research interests). At least one of the 1-year preclinical schools assured us on interview day that that’s primarily the stuff they’ve tried to get rid of.

 

[907914]

A super common complaint from med students is that lectures contain way too much info about niche basic science research that isn’t clinically relevant (e.g. professors talking about their own specific research interests). At least one of the 1-year preclinical schools assured us on interview day that that’s primarily the stuff they’ve tried to get rid of.

I know at Harvard it is 100% CBCL so there is no professor specific basic science stuff, and at UMich they may have some professors like that but the tests are written by their testing center not the profs so the testable material is all NBME style. Maybe someone can speak to the format of Vandy and Duke? Because they too would almost certainly HAVE to get around that.

 

[Deecee2DO]

RowanSOM (DO) just went preclinical condensed for class of ‘23

edit: they dropped Histo completely and condensed biochem significantly where it is only 4 weeks long. Makes sense since biochem is one of the lower yield Step 1 subjects and histo is the single lowest yield by far honestly dont even know why I learned it lol step in the right direction for Rowan

 

[jamaica jan sun princess]

Emory's curriculum is somewhat condensed. 16 month preclinical curriculum and 2 months for step 1. No Summer break but core clerkships end a little earlier and they give students a 5 month block for "Discovery"(research).

 

[Goro]

@LizzyM @Goro @gonnif @Catalystik @gyngyn @Moko - Any insights on curriculum changes and what is cut? What can a prospective student concerned about omissions do? Is there a general pattern as to what may be omitted or is it merely restructuring all of the existing 18 month curriculum?



I wish there was some longitudinal data on this. I like the idea of stream lining things and having clerk ships before Step I, but I feel like a little redundancy can be good to reinforce things. I also don't like the idea of completely removing topics. I am a non-traditional student who put off applying to medical school for personal/medical reasons, and I remember well when the schools were first moving to a 1.5 year curriculum from 2 years. I remember that one school remarked on its website at one point that it did cut some topics like some neck anatomy topics and reserved it as a fourth year elective for students that would need it (e.g. head and neck surgeons, etc.). Imagine what may be cut going from 18 months down to one year. To me the idea of omitting information is terrifying regardless of your ultimate specialty. Some schools apparently shared my concern. I think Wash U in St. Louis is finally transitioning to an 18 month curriculum just now.

All I can say is that the length of the pre-clinical curriculum will be a factor for me if I am fortunate enough to have multiple acceptances. I don't know that a one year curriculum is necessarily superior. The thought of cramming everything into one year makes the idea of "pre-studying" for medical school by reading textbooks ahead of time sound less crazy to me (once MCAT and apps are all in order of course).

Have no idea.

 

[DNAJB6]

RowanSOM (DO) just went preclinical condensed for class of ‘23

edit: they dropped Histo completely and condensed biochem significantly where it is only 4 weeks long. Makes sense since biochem is one of the lower yield Step 1 subjects and histo is the single lowest yield by far honestly dont even know why I learned it lol step in the right direction for Rowan

I was under the impression that biochem was high yield for Step 1. I guess the exam has less basic science than I thought.

 

[DNAJB6]

I think the fear about these three year curriculum that some have expressed here is unjustified

The LCME requires medical schools have at least 130 weeks of curriculum instruction. I am speculating this was originally designed to follow overall academic calendar which has about 30 weeks of curriculum a year or 120 over all.

A traditional four year school starting M1 in August and ending M4 May has roughly 195 calendar weeks to do this. A three year school starting M1 in June and ending M3 in June has 155 calendar weeks to do this. Either curriculum has sufficient time to cover material as. It should also be noted that some top medical schools effectively have had three year curriculum:

The Merits and Challenges of Three-Year Medical School... : Academic Medicine
More contemporary evidence suggests that students can master the medical school curriculum in three years. Several U.S. medical schools have successfully delivered a three-year core curriculum in four years, with the extra year devoted to research or other enrichment activities. At Duke University School of Medicine, for example, students focus on the basic sciences in the first year, complete their core clerkships in the second year, and devote the third and fourth years to electives and research.31 At the Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania, the fourth year includes 36 weeks of flexible time and scholarly training.32 Harvard Medical School’s New Integrated Curriculum carves out nearly a year for advanced experiences in clinical medicine and basic science, a scholarly capstone project, electives, and a subinternship.33 These programs reinforce the idea that the traditional core components of medical school can be delivered effectively in three years in the right setting to highly motivated and capable students.

The issue here is first, minor, reduced time off, and second, "major" STEP exam prep time. Since there are still many medical schools that have never had a dedicated block solely to allow students to study for STEP and who's graduates apparently do fine, I think this is unfounded fear. Besides, nearly half of those who will matriculate as M1 this year will have a single acceptance. Even those with two or three acceptance, location, COA, and other factors are more important. In the end, every LCME medical school produces educated, competent, graduates who perform well on STEP else they would be under LCME scrutiny. So I suggest chill.

BTW, I have a very close friend who graduated from the "last" three year program back in the 1970s, and is a professor at a med school where most students call them by their "first" name: Dean.

This was very helpful. Thank you!

 

[theKingLT]

I think the fear about these three year curriculum that some have expressed here is unjustified

The LCME requires medical schools have at least 130 weeks of curriculum instruction. I am speculating this was originally designed to follow overall academic calendar which has about 30 weeks of curriculum a year or 120 over all.

A traditional four year school starting M1 in August and ending M4 May has roughly 195 calendar weeks to do this. A three year school starting M1 in June and ending M3 in June has 155 calendar weeks to do this. Either curriculum has sufficient time to cover material as. It should also be noted that some top medical schools effectively have had three year curriculum:

The Merits and Challenges of Three-Year Medical School... : Academic Medicine
More contemporary evidence suggests that students can master the medical school curriculum in three years. Several U.S. medical schools have successfully delivered a three-year core curriculum in four years, with the extra year devoted to research or other enrichment activities. At Duke University School of Medicine, for example, students focus on the basic sciences in the first year, complete their core clerkships in the second year, and devote the third and fourth years to electives and research.31 At the Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania, the fourth year includes 36 weeks of flexible time and scholarly training.32 Harvard Medical School’s New Integrated Curriculum carves out nearly a year for advanced experiences in clinical medicine and basic science, a scholarly capstone project, electives, and a subinternship.33 These programs reinforce the idea that the traditional core components of medical school can be delivered effectively in three years in the right setting to highly motivated and capable students.

The issue here is first, minor, reduced time off, and second, "major" STEP exam prep time. Since there are still many medical schools that have never had a dedicated block solely to allow students to study for STEP and who's graduates apparently do fine, I think this is unfounded fear. Besides, nearly half of those who will matriculate as M1 this year will have a single acceptance. Even those with two or three acceptance, location, COA, and other factors are more important. In the end, every LCME medical school produces educated, competent, graduates who perform well on STEP else they would be under LCME scrutiny. So I suggest chill.

BTW, I have a very close friend who graduated from the "last" three year program back in the 1970s, and is a professor at a med school where most students call them by their "first" name: Dean.

So you would support the switch at your school if it were proposed?

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