MD & DO Medical Student Notes Now Billable

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Stagg737

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Wait this seems like a good thing to me. Shouldn't it make it more likely that medstudents get to do real work instead of fake notes that don't really matter?
 
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Shouldn't my tuition go down then?
 
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Wait this seems like a good thing to me. Shouldn't it make it more likely that medstudents get to do real work instead of fake notes that don't really matter?

Didn't say it was necessarily a bad thing overall, just curious about other people's opinions. Though there are some obvious negatives I can think of like med students becoming liable/being named in lawsuits since their notes will now officially be part of the medical record or the potential for billing fraud.
 
Shouldn't my tuition go down then?

Of course not, it just means schools won't feel the need to pay attendings to take on students and will say that med student notes are billable, so students will make them money and they should actually supervise more students. It'll be another excuse for institutions to pay less and shift more responsibility onto academic faculty.
 
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Didn't say it was necessarily a bad thing overall, just curious about other people's opinions. Though there are some obvious negatives I can think of like med students becoming liable/being named in lawsuits since their notes will now officially be part of the medical record or the potential for billing fraud.
no body is coming after negative net worth nelly m3.
 
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Didn't say it was necessarily a bad thing overall, just curious about other people's opinions. Though there are some obvious negatives I can think of like med students becoming liable/being named in lawsuits since their notes will now officially be part of the medical record or the potential for billing fraud.
I honestly think they should be handled like scribes. When I scribed, I was able to start a note on the patient and document everything except for the physician's decision making section (med students should probably be allowed to take a stab at this, though). The physician would then open a new 'physician + scribe" note, which would automatically look for the scribe note and import all information from it. The physician was then able to go through, change what they wanted, document their decision making, and sign it for billing. The fact that mine was specifically noted as a scribe note made it non-billable, but also I think mattered for liability purposes...I'm not sure what all the rules were, but I know there were specific ways scribe notes were handled.
 
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Hahaha f*ck that. Maybe it's because it's second semester of 4th year but I'm just here so I don't get fined and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay to do your actual work.
 
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I honestly think they should be handled like scribes. When I scribed, I was able to start a note on the patient and document everything except for the physician's decision making section (med students should probably be allowed to take a stab at this, though). The physician would then open a new 'physician + scribe" note, which would automatically look for the scribe note and import all information from it. The physician was then able to go through, change what they wanted, document their decision making, and sign it for billing. The fact that mine was specifically noted as a scribe note made it non-billable, but also I think mattered for liability purposes...I'm not sure what all the rules were, but I know there were specific ways scribe notes were handled.

As far as I know, this already occurs. The difference is now the actual med student note can be used as their documentation and billed as opposed to the physician having to write their own separate note. I've had attendings say it's unethical to use a med student note as a physician note due to inadequate quality, which is what this policy seems to be allowing.

no body is coming after negative net worth nelly m3.

Not financially, but they can go after the medical schools who are required to hold liability/malpractice insurance for their students. The issue I see with the student being named as a party in the lawsuit is that it can go on their professional record and having it used against them in future lawsuits or with employment.
 
As far as I know, this already occurs. The difference is now the actual med student note can be used as their documentation and billed as opposed to the physician having to write their own separate note. I've had attendings say it's unethical to use a med student note as a physician note due to inadequate quality, which is what this policy seems to be allowing.



Not financially, but they can go after the medical schools who are required to hold liability/malpractice insurance for their students. The issue I see with the student being named as a party in the lawsuit is that it can go on their professional record and having it used against them in future lawsuits or with employment.
Thats not how liability works in the real world. They go after deep pockets, namely the hospital system and the physican. The kid's name is going to get dropped in the after the first intent to file notice.
 
As far as I know, this already occurs. The difference is now the actual med student note can be used as their documentation and billed as opposed to the physician having to write their own separate note. I've had attendings say it's unethical to use a med student note as a physician note due to inadequate quality, which is what this policy seems to be allowing.



Not financially, but they can go after the medical schools who are required to hold liability/malpractice insurance for their students. The issue I see with the student being named as a party in the lawsuit is that it can go on their professional record and having it used against them in future lawsuits or with employment.
If untrained college kids can write notes of sufficient quality, surely medical students can. Sounds like incentive for them to actually give solid feedback on what is and isn't sufficient quality to their med students so they don't feel it's unethical.
 
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If untrained college kids can write notes of sufficient quality, surely medical students can. Sounds like incentive for them to actually give solid feedback on what is and isn't sufficient quality to their med students so they don't feel it's unethical.

Orrrr sounds like they don't need to pay scribes anymore. It's Wal-Mart's model. Employees get paid **** and spend their money at Wal-Mart. It's damn near free labor for Wal-Mart. It's better than free for the hospital.
 
Orrrr sounds like they don't need to pay scribes anymore. It's Wal-Mart's model. Employees get paid **** and spend their money at Wal-Mart. It's damn near free labor for Wal-Mart. It's better than free for the hospital.
Same thing. My feedback on note writing was definitely better as a scribe than it has been yet in med school, so if I'm going to be free labor anyway, I'd rather a) be useful and b) learn something. Otherwise I'm just paying 60k a year to be miserable while making someone else's job harder.
 
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Look, somehow, somewhere, people have been able to convince smart, educated doctors and residents that residents don't deserve a fair wage since they're still learning on the job. And yet, there are nursing residencies (yes, you read that right) out there that pay their nurses 35-45 dollars/hr, and they have a mixture of work days and lecture days. Don't even get me started on PA pay vs. resident pay.

There is no coming back from this.
 
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Look, somehow, somewhere, people have been able to convince smart, educated doctors and residents that residents don't deserve a fair wage since they're still learning on the job and they have a mixture of work days and lecture days. Don't even get me started on PA pay vs. resident pay.

There is no coming back from this.
I am not sure they call it residency... But they get paid for the first 2 to 3 months while carry no patient load. And yes they do have lectures.

I also think resident should get paid a little more (75-100k)
 
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More exploitation, or better feedback on med student notes? Both?

Tune in for the next couple years to find out.
 
I am not sure they call it residency... But they get paid for the first 2 to 3 months while carry no patient load. And yes they do have lectures.
They do. Thanks for the reply, but I know enough new grad nurses that I don't really need a clarification, nevermind an incorrect one at that.
 
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Thats not how liability works in the real world. They go after deep pockets, namely the hospital system and the physican. The kid's name is going to get dropped in the after the first intent to file notice.

Is there a grammar error here, because it sounds like you're just repeating what I said with the kids name getting added later? Or are you trying to say the student's name would get dropped from the case if the lawyers felt they couldn't get money from the student or the student's institution?

Also, med schools aren't deep pockets? Not saying the claimant will certainly go after the school, just that they could try. Why else would away rotations require that my school have $1 million+ in liability insurance on me when work at their institutions?

Same thing. My feedback on note writing was definitely better as a scribe than it has been yet in med school, so if I'm going to be free labor anyway, I'd rather a) be useful and b) learn something. Otherwise I'm just paying 60k a year to be miserable while making someone else's job harder.

But you're not free labor as a scribe, at least not at any of the places I worked (you were just cheap labor). As a med student you were and will be free labor. Not only are you free labor with this policy, you're now free labor that brings in money for the hospital. Basically you may become a mid-level that's working for free. Read the policy, you'll notice it has no requirements for actual teaching or feedback to the student. It simply states attendings can now use your notes (which you should already be writing) for billing and that your note will become part of the EMR. I'd hope that attendings and residents already give you feedback on your notes and exam skills, but if they aren't do you really believe they'll start doing that because of this policy? My guess is that if they aren't already doing it, they aren't going to start now.
 
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But you're not free labor as a scribe, at least not at any of the places I worked (you were just cheap labor). As a med student you were and will be free labor. Not only are you free labor with this policy, you're now free labor that brings in money for the hospital. Basically you may become a mid-level that's working for free. Read the policy, you'll notice it has no requirements for actual teaching or feedback to the student. It simply states attendings can now use your notes (which you should already be writing) for billing and that your note will become part of the EMR. I'd hope that attendings and residents already give you feedback on your notes and exam skills, but if they aren't do you really believe they'll start doing that because of this policy? My guess is that if they aren't already doing it, they aren't going to start now.
I was only referring to being a med student as the free labor part.

And yeah, I think that when you are useless, reviewing your note is just extra work. If your note actually counts and officially reflects on them...suddenly they care how sh¡tty it is or isn't. When I was scribing, my notes got picked apart worse than any final paper I ever wrote. They didn't have to spend the time on writing their own, but my work was what they were signing their name to, so they had the time and the inclination to be exacting about the quality.
 
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It may be a positive thing, since feedback from writing notes is a positive thing. At my hospital, students are forbidden from writing notes. Some ghostwrite it under an attendings name or share it so they can sign it, but students usually don't write any notes, or have to write a mock one on paper to show. I've had some 3rd years at other schools said they went through an entire years without any notes written
 
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Is there a grammar error here, because it sounds like you're just repeating what I said with the kids name getting added later? Or are you trying to say the student's name would get dropped from the case if the lawyers felt they couldn't get money from the student or the student's institution?

Also, med schools aren't deep pockets? Not saying the claimant will certainly go after the school, just that they could try. Why else would away rotations require that my school have $1 million+ in liability insurance on me when work at their institutions?



But you're not free labor as a scribe, at least not at any of the places I worked (you were just cheap labor). As a med student you were and will be free labor. Not only are you free labor with this policy, you're now free labor that brings in money for the hospital. Basically you may become a mid-level that's working for free. Read the policy, you'll notice it has no requirements for actual teaching or feedback to the student. It simply states attendings can now use your notes (which you should already be writing) for billing and that your note will become part of the EMR. I'd hope that attendings and residents already give you feedback on your notes and exam skills, but if they aren't do you really believe they'll start doing that because of this policy? My guess is that if they aren't already doing it, they aren't going to start now.
Is there a grammar error here, because it sounds like you're just repeating what I said with the kids name getting added later? Or are you trying to say the student's name would get dropped from the case if the lawyers felt they couldn't get money from the student or the student's institution?

Also, med schools aren't deep pockets? Not saying the claimant will certainly go after the school, just that they could try. Why else would away rotations require that my school have $1 million+ in liability insurance on me when work at their institutions?



But you're not free labor as a scribe, at least not at any of the places I worked (you were just cheap labor). As a med student you were and will be free labor. Not only are you free labor with this policy, you're now free labor that brings in money for the hospital. Basically you may become a mid-level that's working for free. Read the policy, you'll notice it has no requirements for actual teaching or feedback to the student. It simply states attendings can now use your notes (which you should already be writing) for billing and that your note will become part of the EMR. I'd hope that attendings and residents already give you feedback on your notes and exam skills, but if they aren't do you really believe they'll start doing that because of this policy? My guess is that if they aren't already doing it, they aren't going to start now.
You carry the insurance because you are a liability. You could do something eggregious . But writing bad note is unlikely to get you named.
Should Medical Students be Sued for Malpractice? - Student Doctor Network

The lawyers in that article give real reasons of why you would be named... It's to have better access to your testimony.

True liability rests with the doctor and the hospital, all treatment decisions are based on the doctor. It is not the medical student making the call . Realastically I have seen about 100 cases work through an academic medical center so I am no expert, but I never saw the medical student get taken to court after the initial filing. I can't seem to find any instances of a medical student being held personally liable for roles they played in med mal cases in my precursory look. Plus they don't give a **** who wrote the stupid note ,who made the treatment decisions is what really matters. And the note is still the doctors liability since they approved and supervised it.


On an interesting side note a doctor once got sued because his pa made an error. He claimed to have not seen or assessed the patient and claimed that the past was practicing independently. Took it all the way up to the state supreme Court here he lost and was still held liable. That's another crazy thing that happens as well midlevels /nursing get dropped inin majority of cases as well. But very rarely does a case even make it that far .most of the time it gets settled before it goes anywhere.
 
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Look, somehow, somewhere, people have been able to convince smart, educated doctors and residents that residents don't deserve a fair wage since they're still learning on the job. And yet, there are nursing residencies (yes, you read that right) out there that pay their nurses 35-45 dollars/hr, and they have a mixture of work days and lecture days. Don't even get me started on PA pay vs. resident pay.

There is no coming back from this.

oh, it's this thread again.
 
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Wow, can't believe they finally did this but I think this is a huge boon for medical education and students stand to benefit greatly.

A few thoughts:

1) I wrote WAY better notes when I was a student than I do now as a resident. Maybe now I've come back to the point I was as a student, but I promise you the "notes" I wrote in <30 seconds as an intern were not very good. It's amazing how fast we all went from "Gee, being a student sucks, nobody even reads my notes, why bother!?" to July 1st and "holy crap I hope nobody ever reads this terrible note!"

2) The literature shows that with EMRs, you're doing well if your notes are ~50% accurate. Don't think it makes a difference if students are writing inaccurate notes or residents are copy/forwarding their inaccurate notes. If anything, spreading the work around may actually help a little - hard to say.

3) EMRs have, in my opinion, been one of the most powerful destructive forces on medical education itself. Documentation has always been an issue, but under a paper chart system students could actually pitch in and help with note writing. We transitioned from paper to Epic between my M3 and M4 years and I got to see firsthand how things changed for us. The EMR prevented students from doing much of anything in the chart and the note writing we did was quickly offloaded onto residents and attendings who now had that much less time to teach. From the sheer time saved aspect, both on inpatient and outpatient services, I think this can only help students.

4) Writing notes is actually educational, especially for students. Having attendings attesting them will likely mean they actually get read and may even generate some valuable feedback. We definitely got this under the paper system. Students would pre-write as much of the note as possible and then the resident would edit and sign it, usually in front of us and would point out things we did wrong, better ways to phrase something, etc. There's something powerful about having to write down an H&P that cements things in your mind and also shows you things you don't know.

5) Interns will show up actually knowing how to write a note. Believe it or not, I've seen interns rotate through our service even later in the year who have never actually written a progress note before. They weren't allowed as students and had a bunch of rotations early on that didn't have an inpatient service and suddenly it's halfway through the year and they've never written a note when we hand them a giant service and say "good luck, make sure these are done asap."
 
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And yet, there are nursing residencies (yes, you read that right) out there that pay their nurses 35-45 dollars/hr, and they have a mixture of work days and lecture

Yeah that’s not even close to relevant for multiple reasons... the hourly pay is the entry level pay for the job they were hired for, the “residency” is simply having an experienced nurse watching over what they do because nursing and is more of a “transition to your actual job” instead of a training exercise, and yes they have lectures. They aren’t even kind of the same thing as a medical residency. In addition the numbers you cited are extremely variable depending on the state, many states pay nurses as low as $20/hr.
 
I abhor paper systems, and if there's enough training and effort, in some EHR systems it's not hard for students to pend orders but no one bothers

The VA and CPRS was great because in THAT system the docs can use student notes, and I'm not sure if I was able to put in orders or if there was just an attending that let me do it... my experience was exactly like operaman describes, more useful to team, get more teaching, they have more time to teach

There's a lot I think is wrong with medical training that needs fixed, but I doubt this is going to make that worse, and I'm leaning on the side of it being beneficial, especially agreeing with operaman above (except that paper is mostly evil)

I got papernotes done faster, but it was quasi dangerous to read IMHO, and documentation goes missing, you waste time trying to find the damn chart sometimes....
 
I abhor paper systems, and if there's enough training and effort, in some EHR systems it's not hard for students to pend orders but no one bothers

The VA and CPRS was great because in THAT system the docs can use student notes, and I'm not sure if I was able to put in orders or if there was just an attending that let me do it... my experience was exactly like operaman describes, more useful to team, get more teaching, they have more time to teach

There's a lot I think is wrong with medical training that needs fixed, but I doubt this is going to make that worse, and I'm leaning on the side of it being beneficial, especially agreeing with operaman above (except that paper is mostly evil)

I got papernotes done faster, but it was quasi dangerous to read IMHO, and documentation goes missing, you waste time trying to find the damn chart sometimes....
Yah, I guess that's what I was trying to get at with the scribing stuff earlier...when the supervisors are actually using your work, they start to care about making sure it actually hits their personal standards, rather than just being 'good enough for a med student'. Plus, if you are providing something useful, your time isn't wasted and their time is freed up so that they can teach more. Reading through your note and editing it to standard is, unless you're truly the worst note writer ever, quicker than writing a whole 'nother note from scratch, and more helpful to the student. The student has more skin in the game because what they write actually matters. Etc.
 
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I abhor paper systems, and if there's enough training and effort, in some EHR systems it's not hard for students to pend orders but no one bothers

The VA and CPRS was great because in THAT system the docs can use student notes, and I'm not sure if I was able to put in orders or if there was just an attending that let me do it... my experience was exactly like operaman describes, more useful to team, get more teaching, they have more time to teach

There's a lot I think is wrong with medical training that needs fixed, but I doubt this is going to make that worse, and I'm leaning on the side of it being beneficial, especially agreeing with operaman above (except that paper is mostly evil)

I got papernotes done faster, but it was quasi dangerous to read IMHO, and documentation goes missing, you waste time trying to find the damn chart sometimes....
I know you can enter unsigned orders in CPRS for physicians so that all they have to do is sign it. Seems like a nice middle ground.

Not going to be relevant, unfortunately, because VA is moving to Cerner.
 
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@operaman , thanks for the more though-out response. I was hoping to have more attendings on here giving opinions, as I've heard some very different opinions on the subject from my attendings irl and the extent to which medical student's input should be included in the EMR.

I was only referring to being a med student as the free labor part.

And yeah, I think that when you are useless, reviewing your note is just extra work. If your note actually counts and officially reflects on them...suddenly they care how sh¡tty it is or isn't. When I was scribing, my notes got picked apart worse than any final paper I ever wrote. They didn't have to spend the time on writing their own, but my work was what they were signing their name to, so they had the time and the inclination to be exacting about the quality.

That's the thing about this proposal though, your notes don't necessarily count for anything. The proposal only says medical student notes can be billable and added to the EMR, not that they have to be. So attendings who don't want to be bothered reading med student notes and feel like it's a waste of their time don't have to include those notes.

My question is, do you really think that the incentives are going to be enough that physicians who don't want to be bothered reading med student notes now are suddenly going to start doing this? I don't, so I don't really think this will change that much unless academic institutions implement policies making it mandatory (which they may if it is seen as profitable enough).

The VA and CPRS was great because in THAT system the docs can use student notes, and I'm not sure if I was able to put in orders or if there was just an attending that let me do it... my experience was exactly like operaman describes, more useful to team, get more teaching, they have more time to teach

Pretty sure your attending was letting you do it. On my VA rotation I was able to write notes which could be signed by the attending and viewed in the EMR, but I could not place orders and they could not bill for my notes. That attending was also one of the people vehemently against student notes being billable because he stated medical students did not yet have the knowledge base to be writing what are even "mediocre" notes in his opinion.
 
@operaman , thanks for the more though-out response. I was hoping to have more attendings on here giving opinions, as I've heard some very different opinions on the subject from my attendings irl and the extent to which medical student's input should be included in the EMR.



That's the thing about this proposal though, your notes don't necessarily count for anything. The proposal only says medical student notes can be billable and added to the EMR, not that they have to be. So attendings who don't want to be bothered reading med student notes and feel like it's a waste of their time don't have to include those notes.

My question is, do you really think that the incentives are going to be enough that physicians who don't want to be bothered reading med student notes now are suddenly going to start doing this? I don't, so I don't really think this will change that much unless academic institutions implement policies making it mandatory (which they may if it is seen as profitable enough).

Pretty sure your attending was letting you do it. On my VA rotation I was able to write notes which could be signed by the attending and viewed in the EMR, but I could not place orders and they could not bill for my notes. That attending was also one of the people vehemently against student notes being billable because he stated medical students did not yet have the knowledge base to be writing what are even "mediocre" notes in his opinion.

You'll have to forgive me, it's been some years since I was a medical student at the VA.

When I was on medicine at the main campus, the residents thought they could use some portions of our notes, and they seemed to care about us for like 5 min. They were then told they couldn't use any part of it (I don't know what the rules are, I still don't, programs/hospitals can be stricter about note requirements than Medicare) and they were very crestfallen, resentful, and life moved on.

As far as the notes, I got two distinct memories mixed up. The ob/gyn residents, the same ones I worked with at the main campus (and we know how that can be....) were told they could use our notes at the VA, and they got ridiculously excited and all of a sudden started paying us attention, treating us like we were useful, involving us more in the patient care, and teaching much more. We also finished the day sooner. It was the Golden Age of resident/student relations. We were practically giddy and in love with each other.

Come to think of it, I think they were then told their program would not allow them to do this, even though I guess it was fine for the residents to cosign our notes and have to do very little to them as far as the VA was concerned? I think all they had to do was addend or write a brief a/p at the end. Or a lot of, "per the student's note." Whatever the arrangement I guess it decreases their documentation burden substantially to do what the VA allowed, but the program did not.

I could tell that they were particularly upset not just that things had to go back to how they were for documentation, but that they would seem like total a-holes to cut the teaching back to its pre-Golden Age low standards. So they did the extra work of the "extra" teaching to some extent. All around it was a return to status quo subpar educational experience.

At my program, I couldn't use the student's note, but still the copy pasta and edit scenario would still save me time.

I've had plenty of med student/attending rotations/interactions where the attending wanted me to write a note and they would copy pasta edit if it was good. Again, Golden Age type relationship.

TLDR:
Let's get frank. In most situations for medical students where there are residents, the students spend very little time with the attending, and most teaching burden falls to overworked residents.

I don't know the rules, but I know that if students do anything that decreases documentation burden for uppers, well as they say shyte rolls downhill and so do breadcrumbs of affection. Anything that helps the team will also help the students.
 
If the question is whether or not this leads to students taking over more documentation burden, my guess will be yes, somewhat, somewhat, somehow.

I expect this will actually improve things overall where this happens.
 
This just means less time to study for the shelf which happens to be the only thing you can objectively control about your grade. This is a loss. Good students already seek out feedback.
 
Didn't say it was necessarily a bad thing overall, just curious about other people's opinions. Though there are some obvious negatives I can think of like med students becoming liable/being named in lawsuits since their notes will now officially be part of the medical record or the potential for billing fraud.
As a student in the paper chart era student notes were already a part of the medical record.
 
We also were able to write discharge summaries, prescriptions, and orders that the resident would then review/correct and sign. It was nice not feeling totally clueless first day of internship. I feel bad for those who have to learn how at the same time as learning how to do all the other intern level stuff.
 
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We also were able to write discharge summaries, prescriptions, and orders that the resident would then review/correct and sign. It was nice not feeling totally clueless first day of internship. I feel bad for those who have to learn how at the same time as learning how to do all the other intern level stuff.

I agree that it's nice to at least have a foundational understanding of how to write various notes and and perform basic clinical duties. It kind of blows my mind hearing people saying they've encountered interns who had never written a note before or even seeing residents who hadn't written a note halfway through intern year. I've also been shocked irl by some of the things PGY-1s I've encountered didn't know how to do, but I feel like it should be some sort of educational violation for a student to have never written a note at all before starting residency...
 
@operaman , thanks for the more though-out response. I was hoping to have more attendings on here giving opinions, as I've heard some very different opinions on the subject from my attendings irl and the extent to which medical student's input should be included in the EMR.



That's the thing about this proposal though, your notes don't necessarily count for anything. The proposal only says medical student notes can be billable and added to the EMR, not that they have to be. So attendings who don't want to be bothered reading med student notes and feel like it's a waste of their time don't have to include those notes.

My question is, do you really think that the incentives are going to be enough that physicians who don't want to be bothered reading med student notes now are suddenly going to start doing this? I don't, so I don't really think this will change that much unless academic institutions implement policies making it mandatory (which they may if it is seen as profitable enough).



Pretty sure your attending was letting you do it. On my VA rotation I was able to write notes which could be signed by the attending and viewed in the EMR, but I could not place orders and they could not bill for my notes. That attending was also one of the people vehemently against student notes being billable because he stated medical students did not yet have the knowledge base to be writing what are even "mediocre" notes in his opinion.
It's a waste of their time if the note serves no purpose. If your note means they don't have to write one, all of a sudden it's a smaller task instead of their larger one, not in addition to. That completely changes the ballgame/motivation scheme. So yes, I do think it would change more docs over to doing so. Plus, frankly, it just feels like less of a waste of time to everyone if you're saying "hey, please review this thing that goes into the official record" compared to "hey, please review what is essentially a homework essay for me, timing doesn't matter and nobody but me cares if it's done well." It's honestly the difference between reading a scribe's note, which in my experience meant critically reviewing every minute detail, and if the premed shadowing you wrote a note and asked you to review it afterwards. It feels different when it's someone's actual job.

Other people's posts in here seem to reflect that when our notes used to count, it did change interactions, so I don't think it's a wild idea.
 
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It's a waste of their time if the note serves no purpose. If your note means they don't have to write one, all of a sudden it's a smaller task instead of their larger one, not in addition to. That completely changes the ballgame/motivation scheme. So yes, I do think it would change more docs over to doing so. Plus, frankly, it just feels like less of a waste of time to everyone if you're saying "hey, please review this thing that goes into the official record" compared to "hey, please review what is essentially a homework essay for me, timing doesn't matter and nobody but me cares if it's done well." It's honestly the difference between reading a scribe's note, which in my experience meant critically reviewing every minute detail, and if the premed shadowing you wrote a note and asked you to review it afterwards. It feels different when it's someone's actual job.

Other people's posts in here seem to reflect that when our notes used to count, it did change interactions, so I don't think it's a wild idea.

2 things. First, the medical student note is not necessarily becoming part of the EMR in all cases, it's just saying it can become a part of it. So for physicians who feel it's a bigger hassle to edit and often re-write their students notes, it's an additional task. I personally feel like attendings or residents should be reviewing student notes already, but for those who don't it is an additional task.

The second issue is the quality of medical student notes. If you scribed, you'd know that scribes aren't the ones taking histories, asking questions, or even touching patients in any way (the two states I've worked with scribes, it was actually illegal for them to touch a patient in a medical sense). So saying that a physician reviewing a scribe note to make sure they caught the whole conversation is completely different from an attending reviewing a medical student note when they may not have even been present or know what was discussed/examined between the med student and patient. In the latter, the physician still has to go back and do everything again to ensure the student didn't miss anything, then review the note, add the new things they did, and change/edit incorrect findings. For people who don't already do that, it's more work, especially if they can just dictate their own note in 30-60 seconds. So I don't think scribing is a fair analogy, and it's certainly not the same thing.

Adding to the second point, the attendings I've talked to who were against this said that even their best students had notes that were bad enough that they felt they'd have to mostly re-write them, and these were attendings who had worked with large numbers of students at academic centers. One of them even argued that he felt most resident notes weren't good enough to be submitted for billing until Pgy-3-4, which surprised me because he was one of my more laid back attendings. He was also an individual who worked at a VA, so med student notes became part of the EMR, he just felt it was unethical to allow notes of such low quality with so many mistakes (attendings and residents still have to write their own notes in the VA, they can't just sign a med student's note according to him) to be billed.

Just to be clear, I'm all for allowing med student notes to become part of the EMR even if they're not signed by an attending so long as it is clearly identified as a student note. My reservations have more to do with being able to bill for medical student notes and the potential for abuse of that system vs. the positives. I'd also like to think that attendings would do the extra work to improve their students' education, but I don't have that much faith in them, especially when I have attendings tell me they won't and numerous others saying they're already pressed for time as it is.
 
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2 things. First, the medical student note is not necessarily becoming part of the EMR in all cases, it's just saying it can become a part of it. So for physicians who feel it's a bigger hassle to edit and often re-write their students notes, it's an additional task. I personally feel like attendings or residents should be reviewing student notes already, but for those who don't it is an additional task.

The second issue is the quality of medical student notes. If you scribed, you'd know that scribes aren't the ones taking histories, asking questions, or even touching patients in any way (the two states I've worked with scribes, it was actually illegal for them to touch a patient in a medical sense). So saying that a physician reviewing a scribe note to make sure they caught the whole conversation is completely different from an attending reviewing a medical student note when they may not have even been present or know what was discussed/examined between the med student and patient. In the latter, the physician still has to go back and do everything again to ensure the student didn't miss anything, then review the note, add the new things they did, and change/edit incorrect findings. For people who don't already do that, it's more work, especially if they can just dictate their own note in 30-60 seconds. So I don't think scribing is a fair analogy, and it's certainly not the same thing.

Adding to the second point, the attendings I've talked to who were against this said that even their best students had notes that were bad enough that they felt they'd have to mostly re-write them, and these were attendings who had worked with large numbers of students at academic centers. One of them even argued that he felt most resident notes weren't good enough to be submitted for billing until Pgy-3-4, which surprised me because he was one of my more laid back attendings. He was also an individual who worked at a VA, so med student notes became part of the EMR, he just felt it was unethical to allow notes of such low quality with so many mistakes (attendings and residents still have to write their own notes in the VA, they can't just sign a med student's note according to him) to be billed.

Just to be clear, I'm all for allowing med student notes to become part of the EMR even if they're not signed by an attending so long as it is clearly identified as a student note. My reservations have more to do with being able to bill for medical student notes and the potential for abuse of that system vs. the positives.
The quality of medical notes is extremely varied and frankly wrong things get carried through them because a large number of docs just copy and paste and modify. A good example of errors is diagnosis that have not really been made, but were carried forward, facts being recorded incorrectly, times/dates being off. Even attending notes are full of errors like this. I personally wouldnt put much stalk in this quality argument because quality is appalling as it is.
 
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2 things. First, the medical student note is not necessarily becoming part of the EMR in all cases, it's just saying it can become a part of it. So for physicians who feel it's a bigger hassle to edit and often re-write their students notes, it's an additional task. I personally feel like attendings or residents should be reviewing student notes already, but for those who don't it is an additional task.

The second issue is the quality of medical student notes. If you scribed, you'd know that scribes aren't the ones taking histories, asking questions, or even touching patients in any way (the two states I've worked with scribes, it was actually illegal for them to touch a patient in a medical sense). So saying that a physician reviewing a scribe note to make sure they caught the whole conversation is completely different from an attending reviewing a medical student note when they may not have even been present or know what was discussed/examined between the med student and patient. It's not the same thing, and I don't think it's a fair analogy.

The attendings I've talked to who were against this said that even their best students had notes that were bad enough that they felt they'd have to re-write them, either, and these were attendings who had worked with large numbers of students at academic centers. One of them even argued that he felt most resident notes weren't good enough to be submitted for billing until Pgy-3-4, which surprised me because he was one of my more laid back attendings. He was also an individual who worked at a VA, so med student notes became part of the EMR, he just felt it was unethical to allow notes of such low quality with so many mistakes (attendings and residents still have to write their own notes in the VA, they can't just sign a med student's note according to him) to be billed.

Just to be clear, I'm all for allowing med student notes to become part of the EMR even if they're not signed by an attending so long as it is clearly identified as a student note. My reservations have more to do with being able to bill for medical student notes and the potential for abuse of that system vs. the positives.
And you're missing the part where the physician gets to not write their own note if the student note counts. Which saves them work, taking the med student note review from 'additional task' to 'alternative task'.

I don't think the note review is that different, really. Honestly, once I got good at it scribing, they didn't bother to give it more than a cursory glance 8/10 times. When they did read it, it usually lead more to 'hey, go ask that patient xyz' rather than 'you forgot something I already asked." Meaning they were reading through to see if the note had all of the info it needed, not just making sure things were transcribed properly.

This law still says that the physician has to do their own physical exam, but that if it matches the students, they don't need to redocument. Sounds great to me. Seriously, we're letting premeds fill out documentation that counts, but med students can't?
And what's with all of these horrendously, unusably terrible notes? Maybe students make all of these mistakes because they aren't getting the volume? How many notes get reviewed in a day if you're not decreasing the physician's charting load? We usually hit 20-30/day in a typical (not super busy) shift scribing - and yet those docs, not having to write their own, have the time to review that many notes and they were the ones taking the actual history. If making student notes count shifts things anywhere close to that, maybe they'll stop feeling like the resident notes, at least, are useless.
 
Thats not how liability works in the real world. They go after deep pockets, namely the hospital system and the physican. The kid's name is going to get dropped in the after the first intent to file notice.

Spoken by someone who's never been involved in a malpractice claim. Make no mistake about it, anyone involved on the record will be named. They go after the deep pockets for the award, but they absolutely name every person whose name is in the chart. Licensing boards then ask "have you ever been named in a malpractice suit?" and the answer will have to be "yes" with an explanation and documentation.
 
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Spoken by someone who's never been involved in a malpractice claim. Make no mistake about it, anyone involved on the record will be named. They go after the deep pockets for the award, but they absolutely name every person whose name is in the chart. Licensing boards then ask "have you ever been named in a malpractice suit?" and the answer will have to be "yes" with an explanation and documentation.
I have been involved in them managing malpractice claims and in settlements, I did it for a living before medicine. And if you read my explanation I did say they would get named. Are you implying that getting named in a claim will prevent licensing?
 
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The quality of medical notes is extremely varied and frankly wrong things get carried through them because a large number of docs just copy and paste and modify. A good example of errors is diagnosis that have not really been made, but were carried forward, facts being recorded incorrectly, times/dates being off. Even attending notes are full of errors like this. I personally wouldnt put much stalk in this quality argument because quality is appalling as it is.

Completely agree, but I'd argue that the quality of an actual physician's notes and their statements are probably more accurate to the patient than most med student notes, even if they're not as thorough. So which is more dangerous to copy/paste? Plus it just adds to the point of if they're already copy/pasting and just carrying forward the current notes, are most really going to take the extra time to review, edit, and re-write it, or are they just going to skim it and dictate their own note? If I were really crunched for time as an attending like the people who just copy/past stuff forward, I know what I'd do (if I were them).

And you're missing the part where the physician gets to not write their own note if the student note counts. Which saves them work, taking the med student note review from 'additional task' to 'alternative task'.

I don't think the note review is that different, really. Honestly, once I got good at it scribing, they didn't bother to give it more than a cursory glance 8/10 times. When they did read it, it usually lead more to 'hey, go ask that patient xyz' rather than 'you forgot something I already asked." Meaning they were reading through to see if the note had all of the info it needed, not just making sure things were transcribed properly.

This law still says that the physician has to do their own physical exam, but that if it matches the students, they don't need to redocument. Sounds great to me. Seriously, we're letting premeds fill out documentation that counts, but med students can't?
And what's with all of these horrendously, unusably terrible notes? Maybe students make all of these mistakes because they aren't getting the volume? How many notes get reviewed in a day if you're not decreasing the physician's charting load? We usually hit 20-30/day in a typical (not super busy) shift scribing - and yet those docs, not having to write their own, have the time to review that many notes and they were the ones taking the actual history. If making student notes count shifts things anywhere close to that, maybe they'll stop feeling like the resident notes, at least, are useless.

The bolded is exactly why it will be MORE work for the physician, because they scribe note is their note, just transcribed by you, the scribe. It also takes less time to read and edit a note that is written based off of what the physician said themselves in order to just check that nothing was missed. That's different from reading a med student note that they know nothing about and have to not only check for formatting, missed exams/findings, and correct documentation, but also have to recheck the H&P and all the physical exams themselves then make sure that they're finding and documenting the same thing. Yes, they can still sign off on the med student note without writing a new one, but it's more work. I don't know how that isn't obvious.

We also let people with no medical experience transcribe physician dictations, having a pre-med transcribe a note isn't that different. However both of those are completely different from performing an interview and physical and creating a note yourself which has to be reviewed, and having a physician review that note is different than reviewing what is supposed to be a transcription of what they said. I think not getting enough volume is the exact problem, which is why I'm for allowing student notes to be in the EMR (at the very least it should motivate the student to put the effort in instead of just coasting). However, being able to bill for it sets up a system which creates incentives for fraud or exploitation of medical students.

Licensing boards then ask "have you ever been named in a malpractice suit?" and the answer will have to be "yes" with an explanation and documentation.

This was the exact point I was trying to make about litigation and being named. Not that the medical student will be financially accountable, but that it can have the potential to affect their future ability to obtain a license. Even if this isn't common or even unusual, the fact that it is a possibility is terrifying and imo unacceptable.
 
I have been involved in them managing malpractice claims and in settlements, I did it for a living before medicine. And if you read my explanation I did say they would get named. Are you implying that getting named in a claim will prevent licensing?

I'm saying you have to explain and document it. Whether or not it will prevent licensing, I have no idea. But it becomes one of those things that will always make your licensing application take much longer to process and lead to a great deal of extra work for you every single time you apply for a new license. In the future, should you be named in a malpractice suit again, either as a resident or attending, it will also always be brought up and warrant explanation, including in future court litigation.
 
The bolded is exactly why it will be MORE work for the physician, because they scribe note is their note, just transcribed by you, the scribe. It also takes less time to read and edit a note that is written based off of what the physician said themselves in order to just check that nothing was missed. That's different from reading a med student note that they know nothing about and have to not only check for formatting, missed exams/findings, and correct documentation, but also have to recheck the H&P and all the physical exams themselves then make sure that they're finding and documenting the same thing. Yes, they can still sign off on the med student note without writing a new one, but it's more work. I don't know how that isn't obvious.
I'm...honestly not sure you know what scribing is. The physician doesn't tell you what to write. That's what Dragon is for.

Do you take the history yourself? No. The doctor has a conversation with the patient, in whatever meandering, crazy order it comes in, and then you turn it into an HPI, a detailed ROS, and all the PMHx, SHx, FHx sections. You decide what is pertinent and belongs in HPI, and what gets left for the ROS. They don't tell you the physical exam findings. They perform the physical exam, and you have to notice which parts they performed. If they say nothing, it was normal, and you have to know the language for that. If there is an abnormal finding, that's pretty much the only part they say out loud. Sometimes they'll just say 'make sure you document that wound' and you describe it yourself. You learn from experience which of the observation/hard-to-see exam findings that doctor includes, and with more experience, you start to learn which pertinent exams findings come up in which kinds of complaints. If there's something particular that they observed as normal for a given case, they might point it out. If they read your HPI later and find out that you didn't include the right pertinent positives/negatives, you get reamed (or you hear them fix it themselves, which sucks). If they don't like your language, you hear them fix it. If you miss a particularly important detail that sounded minor, you'll be told why it was important, so you don't do it again. If you notice that they didn't ask an important question or document a particular exam finding, it's within your job description to point it out (though how and if you do so obviously depends on the personality of the doc...I recommend always asking about it as if you missed hearing them say it).

They don't tell you what to do with the labs, you enter those into the note yourself and add the interpretation (e.g. leukocytosis with left shift, mild normocytic anemia).
Radiology reports are entered as they come from the radiologist, obviously. Keeping track of which labs were back and which ones the doctor cares about was part of your job. Obviously the doc pays attention and ultimately reviews everything, but you are expected to be the other pair of eyes on the patient tracker. You don't natter at them every time part of the order set comes through, but if something important comes up that needs attention, or the bit that confirms their diagnosis is in, you let them know.
Before I'd sign it, they'd tell me which diagnosis to enter so I could track down the ICD codes. I'd always get bonus points if I entered the right discharge information and appended the appropriate patient education materials to the chart, too...less work for them later. I always made it a game to guess the diagnosis and get all of that prepped early, so that when the last finding or whatnot came back to confirm, they could tell me "sign it out as a x, recommend y" and I could just click 'sign' right then.

We also entered all procedure notes - using templates, granted, but that's true later on, too.

So, no...there's very little of it that is just writing down what the physician said. Scribes organize the information, sort it, format it, etc. Reading a scribe note is reading through a full note that you've never seen before, making sure nothing is missed in history or exam or procedures and that it is well organized and understandable. Either way they have to verify the history and exams with the patient, so that's the same for both...the physician does the H+P once themselves in both cases.
 
I'm...honestly not sure you know what scribing is. The physician doesn't tell you what to write. That's what Dragon is for.

Do you take the history yourself? No. The doctor has a conversation with the patient, in whatever meandering, crazy order it comes in, and then you turn it into an HPI, a detailed ROS, and all the PMHx, SHx, FHx sections. You decide what is pertinent and belongs in HPI, and what gets left for the ROS. They don't tell you the physical exam findings. They perform the physical exam, and you have to notice which parts they performed. If they say nothing, it was normal, and you have to know the language for that. If there is an abnormal finding, that's pretty much the only part they say out loud. Sometimes they'll just say 'make sure you document that wound' and you describe it yourself. You learn from experience which of the observation/hard-to-see exam findings that doctor includes, and with more experience, you start to learn which pertinent exams findings come up in which kinds of complaints. If there's something particular that they observed as normal for a given case, they might point it out. If they read your HPI later and find out that you didn't include the right pertinent positives/negatives, you get reamed (or you hear them fix it themselves, which sucks). If they don't like your language, you hear them fix it. If you miss a particularly important detail that sounded minor, you'll be told why it was important, so you don't do it again. If you notice that they didn't ask an important question or document a particular exam finding, it's within your job description to point it out (though how and if you do so obviously depends on the personality of the doc...I recommend always asking about it as if you missed hearing them say it).

They don't tell you what to do with the labs, you enter those into the note yourself and add the interpretation (e.g. leukocytosis with left shift, mild normocytic anemia).
Radiology reports are entered as they come from the radiologist, obviously. Keeping track of which labs were back and which ones the doctor cares about was part of your job. Obviously the doc pays attention and ultimately reviews everything, but you are expected to be the other pair of eyes on the patient tracker. You don't natter at them every time part of the order set comes through, but if something important comes up that needs attention, or the bit that confirms their diagnosis is in, you let them know.
Before I'd sign it, they'd tell me which diagnosis to enter so I could track down the ICD codes. I'd always get bonus points if I entered the right discharge information and appended the appropriate patient education materials to the chart, too...less work for them later. I always made it a game to guess the diagnosis and get all of that prepped early, so that when the last finding or whatnot came back to confirm, they could tell me "sign it out as a x, recommend y" and I could just click 'sign' right then.

We also entered all procedure notes - using templates, granted, but that's true later on, too.

So, no...there's very little of it that is just writing down what the physician said. Scribes organize the information, sort it, format it, etc. Reading a scribe note is reading through a full note that you've never seen before, making sure nothing is missed in history or exam or procedures and that it is well organized and understandable. Either way they have to verify the history and exams with the patient, so that's the same for both...the physician does the H+P once themselves in both cases.
your gonna be killing it when it comes to notes.
 
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your gonna be killing it when it comes to notes.
Haha, that's why I love Dragon so much...I used to make sure I was nearby when they went to finish off their notes, because I'd hear/see every correction they dictated in and then I'd hear them say their entire 'medical decision making' section (that scribes didn't have access to) out loud. It was really helpful for incorporating their insight without nagging them. Definitely less worried on the notes front than a lot of my classmates, lol!
 
I'm...honestly not sure you know what scribing is. The physician doesn't tell you what to write. That's what Dragon is for.

Do you take the history yourself? No. The doctor has a conversation with the patient, in whatever meandering, crazy order it comes in, and then you turn it into an HPI, a detailed ROS, and all the PMHx, SHx, FHx sections. You decide what is pertinent and belongs in HPI, and what gets left for the ROS. They don't tell you the physical exam findings. They perform the physical exam, and you have to notice which parts they performed. If they say nothing, it was normal, and you have to know the language for that. If there is an abnormal finding, that's pretty much the only part they say out loud. Sometimes they'll just say 'make sure you document that wound' and you describe it yourself. You learn from experience which of the observation/hard-to-see exam findings that doctor includes, and with more experience, you start to learn which pertinent exams findings come up in which kinds of complaints. If there's something particular that they observed as normal for a given case, they might point it out. If they read your HPI later and find out that you didn't include the right pertinent positives/negatives, you get reamed (or you hear them fix it themselves, which sucks). If they don't like your language, you hear them fix it. If you miss a particularly important detail that sounded minor, you'll be told why it was important, so you don't do it again. If you notice that they didn't ask an important question or document a particular exam finding, it's within your job description to point it out (though how and if you do so obviously depends on the personality of the doc...I recommend always asking about it as if you missed hearing them say it).

They don't tell you what to do with the labs, you enter those into the note yourself and add the interpretation (e.g. leukocytosis with left shift, mild normocytic anemia).
Radiology reports are entered as they come from the radiologist, obviously. Keeping track of which labs were back and which ones the doctor cares about was part of your job. Obviously the doc pays attention and ultimately reviews everything, but you are expected to be the other pair of eyes on the patient tracker. You don't natter at them every time part of the order set comes through, but if something important comes up that needs attention, or the bit that confirms their diagnosis is in, you let them know.
Before I'd sign it, they'd tell me which diagnosis to enter so I could track down the ICD codes. I'd always get bonus points if I entered the right discharge information and appended the appropriate patient education materials to the chart, too...less work for them later. I always made it a game to guess the diagnosis and get all of that prepped early, so that when the last finding or whatnot came back to confirm, they could tell me "sign it out as a x, recommend y" and I could just click 'sign' right then.

We also entered all procedure notes - using templates, granted, but that's true later on, too.

So, no...there's very little of it that is just writing down what the physician said. Scribes organize the information, sort it, format it, etc. Reading a scribe note is reading through a full note that you've never seen before, making sure nothing is missed in history or exam or procedures and that it is well organized and understandable. Either way they have to verify the history and exams with the patient, so that's the same for both...the physician does the H+P once themselves in both cases.

Yea, that's not what scribing was when I went through the training. In the state I was in several of the responsibilities you listed are actually illegal for scribes according the training I went through. The only things scribes were able to do were to record H&P (or progress notes), physical exam findings, and pertinent lab values that the physician stated should be included. You could not enter information about procedures or tests you were not physically present for. Idk if that's a difference with state laws, but what you're describing sounds like some of what the scribes I've worked with did with more that were not part of their duties and some that they actually were not allowed to do in the 2 states I've worked with scribes in. Granted, I did the training almost 10 years ago, so things may have changed.

Some of what you're describing sounds like just dealing with docs who suck/are jerks if they're not verbalizing some of the physical exams they're performing. Some of it sounds like on-the-job learning you should be able to pick up as you go. Some of it sounds like it's outside your responsibilities (though again, could be variances in law, I know you definitely weren't supposed to be doing anything in terms of billing though). However, it's still different (and imo easier) for a physician to look over a note that someone took while while the doc was performing the interview and exam than review a note taken based on an interview and exam they were not present for, as the doc will have to go and do everything again themselves, then review the note for which is based on an interview and exam they did not witness and try to figure out which points were relevant to that interview compared to theirs and give valid feedback and teach (which they should be doing).

Since you're comparing clinical years to scribing, I have to ask if you have any experience regarding the responsibilities and limitations of medical students during their clinical rotations? As in which parts of notes we're allowed to contribute to, the extent to which we can perform certain physical exams, and under what circumstances we can perform/assist with procedures? Honestly, it sounds like you may be disappointed with what you'll actually be able to do as a medical student given your past experiences.
 
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