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Sounds like a “them” problem. There’s people unhappy at every stage of life
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My CS degree WITH real world experience, research and coursework in ML topics, qualifies me to say that anyone (especially a radiology resident), who thinks that ML algorithms will replace radiologists is full of ****. It'd be naive to think that AI won't impact and enhance medical practice, but saying that it will outright replace radiologists is straight up fear mongering. Once again, sorry you're unhappy, but perhaps your therapist is a better place to vent then random premeds who at best are 4 years from even matching radiology.
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deleted859689
I think most of us know this, yet are entering medicine for more reasons than this. I find a potential career as a physician the only career path in life that will truly be rewarding. I get to directly help other, but also learn the intricate science behind the human body. Money is secondary to me. I find excitement in pursuing a career in medicine - I’m sorry that medicine no longer has any appeal to you.
The problem with healthcare is multifaceted and as long as you have that awareness prior to entering medical school, you’ll be okay. Insurance companies and best practice have far too much influence on the care we provide patients. Patients demand the world of providers all the while not taking any responsibility for their own poor health. Costs are through the roof due to our collective poor health and the fact that people who can afford to pay are also paying for those who can’t. There’s not enough emphasis on prevention. Chronic disease is treated based on symptoms disease processes cause instead of addressing root causes (again, not necessarily the fault of physicians when patients won’t take the steps necessary to improve their health). So yes, it’s frustrating and part of the reason I’m choosing to go down this road is to hopefully change business as usual so to speak.
This.
I wish this actually existed. Although people wouldn’t likely take the name brand. You’d have to get the off brand
Thanks for the reiteration. If you'd like to deny statistics and well-evidenced projection models, can't help you there. More anecdotally, when you live in a huge US city and it still is a 3-4 week book-out lag before you can see a dermatologist, or any other niche specialist, I'd say there is a shortage problem.
Your original argument was:
I pointed out that I had borrowed far more than 300k, felt well respected, and well compensated, and was in fact, part of your generation. There is thus no generational gap between us.
I understand your complaints about debt burden, increasing regulations, etc. There is much to be unhappy and frustrated about, but more to be thankful and grateful about. My family members (many in CS) can not afford a home where I live. My siblings feel they don’t get anywhere near the respect I do based off their jobs (PhD and tWo with an MS), nor do they have anywhere near the level of job security/flexibility (there are plenty of open jobs I could grab right now if I wanted to quit) that I do. They also have a lot of debt, but earn much less so it’s harder to service. And their jobs have increased regulations/paperwork as well.
Tell me again, where medicine commands a monopoly on misery?
I’ve learned is some people are just addicted to misery. I have also learned to avoid these people like the plague-and I encourage pre-meds to do the same. This misery spreads like a wildfire. And it serves no purpose but to take down others with you.
If you had been more honest about your priorities during the application process you would not have gotten in and currently would not be in this predicament.
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deleted746658
again, my hope is to s
again, purpose of the thread was to caution naive pre-meds. i understand the situation i am in . my goal was to give a more real picture of what it means to enter this profession, which can be hard for premeds to appreciate given their minimal exposure to the realities of practicing medicine in the US. and hopefully some will question whether they want to head down this path. for myself, most of my medical school friends, and i would say the overwhelming majority of residents i have encountered, we regret it.
check in with the UW residents to get a picture of what its like to be a resident. no rights, **** pay, and unsafe hours. cheers.
again, purpose of the thread was to caution naive pre-meds. i understand the situation i am in . my goal was to give a more real picture of what it means to enter this profession, which can be hard for premeds to appreciate given their minimal exposure to the realities of practicing medicine in the US. and hopefully some will question whether they want to head down this path. for myself, most of my medical school friends, and i would say the overwhelming majority of residents i have encountered, we regret it.
check in with the UW residents to get a picture of what its like to be a resident. no rights, **** pay, and unsafe hours. cheers.
you will not be financially independent at 30 as a physician. Hate to break it to you. In fact you will probably have negative net worth.
yes but that starting salary is at ~21 likely with yearly 401k matching. That individual could easily be completely debt free as well. By the time most would just be finishing residency in their 30s, that you professional could very easily have saved hundreds of thousands and has upward mobility of pay.
with a 30 year career and a very frugal saver you are right 10 million is possible. But it’s not sunshine and rainbows.
of course I have first hand experience, but the situation at uw does not seem too bad. 58k and a 5% 403b is quite good even if their rent approachs 2k
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The problem is that asking a resident at peak misery about the wisdom of entering medicine is like asking a woman in labor about the wisdom of having children.
Also, let's suppose that this thread happens to discourage one person from entering medical school. That seat will not go empty. Another person will happily take it, so the net effect of your efforts would be zero.
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deleted746658
oh boy. 30 with financial freedom. that and MD/DO is an oxymoron. the salary looks big on paper, but it doesn;t justify the opportunity cost to get there. then you have taxes, and paying for mortage, kids, car loan, etc... and you realize that dough goes by quick. and you'll likely have a NW of $0-100k in 30s. meanwhile, your non-medicine friends are the ones who will have financial freedom in their 30s.
docs who work 20hrs/wk do not make bank. most of us will be employees in the future. that literally won't even be an option.
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deleted746658
as i said, saving just one person will help me sleep at night.
the idiot that fills his spot. well, that's on him/her.
30 maybe no, but just being in your 30s? An MD/DO with ANY residency and reasonable debt is enough financial independence for pretty much anyone. Unfortunately most doctors who finally reach attending salary (much like Marine getting their first pay check after basic) make terrible financial decisions and inflate their lifestyle fourfold from when they were a resident. OP is gonna be making $350,000 after graduation if we take a very lowball estimate for rads would take home about $200,000 in the worst case scenario. Living on post tax $50,000/year (which is VERY reasonable even for a couple+kid), you could pay off a 300k loan in 2-3 years. Less aggressively or with more debt it's doable in 5. Assuming you're the average medical student who got in at 24, finished med school at 28, and residency at 32, you could be done with your loans at 35-37 and that's just taking the most lowball possible rads salary. This leaves what, 20-30 years of attending salary that outright BLOWS AWAY 99.99% of any American's salary.
Not just doctors have kids cars and mortgages. It's mostly doctors that decide to get expensive cars and mortgages that they can't afford though!
If only there was some way to have known this before you started down this path. Perhaps some type of... information source regarding the length of training, the financial implications of going to medical school, the nature of residency, and the fact that radiology has been the most up-and-down specialty for over two decades.
Oh well, better luck next time.
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deleted859689
He doesn't need to, it's obvious. He got fixated on the paycheck at the end of the rainbow and ignored everything in between. Happens all the time.
No, there were few patients and they had med students and residents sit around all day. Heard from people that an entire team had to share one or two patients. The HUH situation is terrible and continues to be terrible.
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It seems clear the OP has their mind set and debating with them has no purpose.
I want premeds to know it is very possible to have a fun, personally fulfilling, meaningful, and financially prosperous medical career.
Just be aware of what you’re getting into-it is a lot of sacrifice. But let’s be clear-anything you do will require a lot of sacrifice. I was a non-traditional and worked other jobs before medical school. New architects spend years like we do, learning the ropes, working late into the night. New police recruits do the same. The finance world is the worst. Literally every job (even professional instagrammer) is going to be a lot more work than you realize if you have any intent to be successful. So is being a parent!
Life is a lot harder than I thought it would be. At 21 I thought everything would be cake. But if you pursue things you enjoy and find meaningful, you don’t just “get through it.” You live your life! My life did not go on pause in residency. It is not on pause as a new attending. Life is not something to fast-forward—how many people say life will be better once they’re in medical school, then better once they’re in their clinical years, then once they’re in residency, then once they’re an attending, then once they retire or switch careers? If you can’t make life better now you’re doing something wrong. Life is too short to not be happy.
My advice for a happy life (not that I’m old and wise-I still qualify as young, dumb, and broke):
1) Marry the right person (this will determine 90% of your happiness)
2) Go into a profession you enjoy and find meaningful. And get good at it. Don’t “follow your passion”-no one knows what their passion is at 20. If you’re like I was, it changes every month. Your job does not determine your happiness in life—otherwise the bulk of humans would be miserable because most outside the modern and western world (and many within) have little to no say over their career. But they learn to be happy. There is a reason there are paintings of medieval peasants dancing in the streets—they actually did that! Find something you can instead be passionate about, but also find meaningful-meaning and purpose are what get you through the difficult days/nights after you’ve been doing the same thing for 10+ years.
3) Lead a happy life, and spread love and happiness to others.
I want premeds to know it is very possible to have a fun, personally fulfilling, meaningful, and financially prosperous medical career.
Just be aware of what you’re getting into-it is a lot of sacrifice. But let’s be clear-anything you do will require a lot of sacrifice. I was a non-traditional and worked other jobs before medical school. New architects spend years like we do, learning the ropes, working late into the night. New police recruits do the same. The finance world is the worst. Literally every job (even professional instagrammer) is going to be a lot more work than you realize if you have any intent to be successful. So is being a parent!
Life is a lot harder than I thought it would be. At 21 I thought everything would be cake. But if you pursue things you enjoy and find meaningful, you don’t just “get through it.” You live your life! My life did not go on pause in residency. It is not on pause as a new attending. Life is not something to fast-forward—how many people say life will be better once they’re in medical school, then better once they’re in their clinical years, then once they’re in residency, then once they’re an attending, then once they retire or switch careers? If you can’t make life better now you’re doing something wrong. Life is too short to not be happy.
My advice for a happy life (not that I’m old and wise-I still qualify as young, dumb, and broke):
1) Marry the right person (this will determine 90% of your happiness)
2) Go into a profession you enjoy and find meaningful. And get good at it. Don’t “follow your passion”-no one knows what their passion is at 20. If you’re like I was, it changes every month. Your job does not determine your happiness in life—otherwise the bulk of humans would be miserable because most outside the modern and western world (and many within) have little to no say over their career. But they learn to be happy. There is a reason there are paintings of medieval peasants dancing in the streets—they actually did that! Find something you can instead be passionate about, but also find meaningful-meaning and purpose are what get you through the difficult days/nights after you’ve been doing the same thing for 10+ years.
3) Lead a happy life, and spread love and happiness to others.
the terms you are using “financial freedom” usually implies that you have the ability to just stop working and live off the assets you already have, which would mean having around 20-25x your yearly expenditures in net worth not including your house
Recently, I was helping out a friend who wants to start interviewing for new positions (he works in accounting). It led to me to some forums, including Wall Street Oasis, which I frequented during college. There are literally entire threads much larger than this one devoted solely to answering an interview question such as: "Why investment banking?" Despite medical school (particularly the pre-clinical years sucking horribly), I am grateful to enjoy what I am doing every day. Most importantly, I'm happy to be doing something that doesn't involve either asking a bunch of people on a forum for reasons as to why I want to do something (or at least what interviewers want to hear). I used to work in airline management for two major airlines. The jobs were 9 to 5 with amazing flight benefits. In hindsight, I'm glad I have changed careers. If I had to do it all over again, I most certainly would!
What “statistics and well-evidenced projection models” are you talking about? Have you actually taken the time to analyze the data given by the AAMC? And why is the Bureau of Labor Statistics predicting a considerably poorer course?
Also, I always see “try booking a dermatologist” blah blah as an argument for the doctor shortage lol. Of course dermatology is in high demand, that’s part of the reason it’s the most competitive specialty.
As a counter-point to OP, I want to let pre-meds know of my experience.
I'm currently a PGY-3 and am having a blast. Sure, there are rough days and weeks and residency is tough no matter what, but my specialty gives a generous amount of free time even during residency and I'm making free time to hang out with family and friends probably more than some years of med school believe it or not. I'll be done soon and my work hours will drop as a full time attending from the very manageable ~60 hours/week now as a resident down to ~30-35 hours per week. The average pay for my specialty is ~350k or so per year. All while doing a job that is intellectually satisfying, fun, garners respect from many people I interact with (gotten out of a few tickets for pulling the doc card!), and I can feel happy knowing at the end of the day I left the world a little better off than it started hopefully. I should have my loans (~200k) paid off in about 3-5 years after I'm done while still making meaningful contributions to my retirement and investments.
I've gone through pretty much straight from UG->MS->residency but I still realize how well off and lucky I am. Ever been to a high school or college reunion? Lot of people who went into bright careers or degrees are having it pretty rough these days. Very few jobs that command a salary even close to what I will make as an attending don't involvement serious time commitment w/ large attrition rates due to burnout.
I don't want to discredit everything that the OP said, just want to give pre-meds a different outlook and let them know that medicine is still a great career.
I'm currently a PGY-3 and am having a blast. Sure, there are rough days and weeks and residency is tough no matter what, but my specialty gives a generous amount of free time even during residency and I'm making free time to hang out with family and friends probably more than some years of med school believe it or not. I'll be done soon and my work hours will drop as a full time attending from the very manageable ~60 hours/week now as a resident down to ~30-35 hours per week. The average pay for my specialty is ~350k or so per year. All while doing a job that is intellectually satisfying, fun, garners respect from many people I interact with (gotten out of a few tickets for pulling the doc card!), and I can feel happy knowing at the end of the day I left the world a little better off than it started hopefully. I should have my loans (~200k) paid off in about 3-5 years after I'm done while still making meaningful contributions to my retirement and investments.
I've gone through pretty much straight from UG->MS->residency but I still realize how well off and lucky I am. Ever been to a high school or college reunion? Lot of people who went into bright careers or degrees are having it pretty rough these days. Very few jobs that command a salary even close to what I will make as an attending don't involvement serious time commitment w/ large attrition rates due to burnout.
I don't want to discredit everything that the OP said, just want to give pre-meds a different outlook and let them know that medicine is still a great career.
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Being an older non-trad, the vast majority of my friends and acquaintances are deep into their professional careers, as was I. The school principals, teachers, lawyers, physicians, utility workers, engineers, salespeople, and everyone else I know and speak with all say their field is exhausting and not worth it. I have come to the conclusion that people do not like their jobs because jobs in general are quite demanding of our time and energy, making it difficult to achieve work-life balance and a feeling of adequate compensation. I don't blame or judge anyone who feels this way. I've just come to accept that whatever one does, it may give them satisfaction at some point, and drive them nuts at another. Of course, medicine involves a particularly lengthy and arduous path, potentially exacerbating any feelings of dissatisfaction with the day-to-day happenings and overall career choice.
I don't say any of this to say, "Suck it up!" or anything along those lines. I'm just coming to my own realization, that life is tough on a large majority of people, and most of the folks venting about their job have valid concerns. Life is grand and it's a gift to be here, but it's expensive and quite stressful at times. In the end, you gotta eat, pay bills, and build a nest egg one way or another. A bit more resentment and/or regret seems to come from physicians, probably due to the time commitment and the reality of what medicine ends up being vs the ideal as one begins this journey. Quite often, things seem to be more exciting in theory than in practice, but with medicine, it seems like the pressure never really lets up, taking a serious toll in the long run.
Keep your head up @cosine89. You'e put in a ton of work and deserve to reach a point at which you'll have a bit more freedom and/or income to balance out the rough years you've experienced along this journey. I haven't even touched med school yet and thus have no idea how difficult what you're going through is, but if you've made it this far, you're definitely competent and can get through residency. You deserve it.
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May I ask what residency you're in currently?
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deleted804295
Sounds like derm
Update: Just looked @ his post history and he is likely EM! Matches up with average salary too
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My son is looking to take this MD route but I took the business route and I am a successful senior executive who makes more than most doctors. I guarantee you I didn’t get there with a great quality of life always either, especially in my 20’s when I was trying to learn, impress and make an impact to get here.
I now have the resources for a really nice quality of life now though. My fancy neighborhood is filled with other executives, business owners and doctors. Effort in = rewards out.
I now have the resources for a really nice quality of life now though. My fancy neighborhood is filled with other executives, business owners and doctors. Effort in = rewards out.
The op is either an intern or 2nd year resident based upon post history. It is clear to me he has no idea what he is talking about.
In medicine you can make a discrete difference in a life, have exceptional stability and a good salary that likely will remain , even if the crazy socialists win...
come back when there is a down turn in the economy and see how happy all those folks in computer science, business And all those other lucrative careers are. There's a lot of people who are unemployed.
Also, residency is not attendinghood. Attendinghood is much better than residency.
In medicine you can make a discrete difference in a life, have exceptional stability and a good salary that likely will remain , even if the crazy socialists win...
come back when there is a down turn in the economy and see how happy all those folks in computer science, business And all those other lucrative careers are. There's a lot of people who are unemployed.
Also, residency is not attendinghood. Attendinghood is much better than residency.
Just since I didn't see anyone mention it: you shouldn't be paying 6.2% interest unless you are banking on a loan repayment program (which, as a radiologist, you shouldn't). Refinance with a private lender like Sofi: you will give up your right to participate in all of the loan repayment programs, but you will get a rate that is around 4%, maybe less.
I met a social worker who only works 40 hours a week and said they wished they could go back to school and do something else. And teachers despite having winter break, summer, spring break, thanksgiving, and every holiday off say they're overworked and wish they could do something else. Honestly, a lot of people complain.
Ouch!!!
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deleted87051
I’m 26 years out of medical school. Most of my friends are doctors. What you are describing is more the exception than the rule. Most doctors have saved diligently and are financially better off than most professionals our own age. Doctors being bad with money is an old myth.
to be fair, aren’t anesthesiologists stereotypically better with money than other specialties? It seems like most medical money bloggers are anesthesiologists
Hey, they gotta' do something while the CRNA gives the gas...
This was a joke, nobody get mad plz
That's nurse anesthesiologist to you, stupid med student.
Signed,
Garry Brydges PhD, DNP, MBA, ACNP-BC, CRNA, FAAN, BLS, ACLS, PALS, BA, GED, OPP
Fair enough. I guess my own experiences are different, but my N is also likely significantly lower.
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deleted87051
A little corroboration. I’m not saying doctors don’t make financial errors. We make plenty. But we also have incomes that allow us to recover from them.
The Top 1 Percent: What Jobs Do They Have?
Explore the occupations and industries of the nation's wealthiest households.
archive.nytimes.com
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deleted87051
FWIW there was tons of doom and gloom in my field, anesthesiology, in the 1990s. The year after I finished, it was so bad that only around 180 out of 1100 spots filled. The doomsayers were wrong.
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deleted87051
Very true. I have a couple of partners who are miserable even though we have the exact same job in one of the best cities in the world.
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A little corroboration. I’m not saying doctors don’t make financial errors. We make plenty. But we also have incomes that allow us to recover from them.
The Top 1 Percent: What Jobs Do They Have?
Explore the occupations and industries of the nation's wealthiest households.archive.nytimes.com
You may be right. However, this article defines top 1% by income rather than net worth, a subtle but important distinction.
