DelAGator

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I was interested in Michigan State and noticed that there was a Osteopathic and MD route.

Is there a huge difference in training, in the clinical setting. I heard that the DO and MD students attend the same lecture MS1 and MS2. Is that true?

Is there a difference in the type of residencies you can get?
Possible Plastic Surgery? :confused:
 

Ratch

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most MS1 classes are taken jointly, except for at COM we have OMM and more clinical skills stuff right off the bat. second year is completely seperate. hospitals for both schools are located throughout MI as MSU has no hospital system itself. most of the towns the hospitals are in are covered by both schools, except CHM has a rural health program for 1 or 2 students in the Upper Penninsula. Residency is what it is, as an osteopath in MI you are at a great advantage looking for subspecialty work (except for plastics, which there is about 2 postgrad programs in for DO's) within the osteopathic field, and there is always the route of entering the allopathic match. again, irregardless of what school you go to, if you wanna do plastics you need to be sell your soul, or at least 5 years of your life... hope that helps.
 

subtle1epiphany

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Ratch said:
most MS1 classes are taken jointly, except for at COM we have OMM and more clinical skills stuff right off the bat. second year is completely seperate. hospitals for both schools are located throughout MI as MSU has no hospital system itself. most of the towns the hospitals are in are covered by both schools, except CHM has a rural health program for 1 or 2 students in the Upper Penninsula. Residency is what it is, as an osteopath in MI you are at a great advantage looking for subspecialty work (except for plastics, which there is about 2 postgrad programs in for DO's) within the osteopathic field, and there is always the route of entering the allopathic match. again, irregardless of what school you go to, if you wanna do plastics you need to be sell your soul, or at least 5 years of your life... hope that helps.
There's a better chance of subspecialty work in MI for DOs? Hmmm, then I'd have a better chance at MSUCOM going for cardiology than some other schools? I'm not following.

Is that because it can be difficult to get in the state and there's only one DO school in MI, so the MSUCOM grads have the pick of all the AOA spots? Are the residency programs at Wayne State and UMich dually accredited? How could I find out if they are?

A few questions, but Cardio is becoming a real interest of mine, perhaps pediatric cardio, but still I know it's a very difficult fellowship to obtain as the pay can be incredible (as high as surgical or GI).
 

ddmo

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Ratch said:
Residency is what it is, as an osteopath in MI you are at a great advantage looking for subspecialty work (except for plastics, which there is about 2 postgrad programs in for DO's) within the osteopathic field, and there is always the route of entering the allopathic match.
You might be at an advantage compared to the other DOs around the country since 25% of all DO residencies are in Michigan, but I wouldn't say that you are at an advantage compared to an allo of matching into a competitive specialty. Especially considering the allo match, where out of thousands of nationwide spots, only a handfull will be filled by DOs in the competitive specialties.
 

Ratch

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okay, jeezm you guys really read into this whole thing. i can't provide you with some specific ratio, but its simply my opinion. yes, MI has a preponderance of the subspecialty programs; i guess i should have clarified because my interest is in SURG subspecialty, where Uro and ENT are dominated by MSU in the osteopathic world. anyways. MSU grads have about a 94% first choice acceptance in the match, and almost all of them stay here in MI and do osteopathic programs. now consider that only half of all osteopathic students stay in the osteo match at all. there were over 900 open slots last year. and we rotate, as MSU students, through the hospitals where most of these programs are! sure there are a spackling of students from other DO schools, but overall we have a very good reputation here in MI, probably why there has been a push to expand the class size and get more people into our program and hence more doctors to work (and stay) in MI
 

Ratch

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and then in regards to the allo aspect, again keeping in mind my train of thought is surg subspeciality, there are far fewer positions offered. however, there are also far fewer people trying to get them. therefore if you are a truely competitive applicant, there are less total competitive applicants in the pool of people looking to get a particular spot. what i mean is there are something like 255 ENT allo positions each year, and about 8-10 osteo. within the osteo world, maybe 20 people might be after those positions. considering about 8 of those ten positions are in MI, and they are all at MSU base hospitals, and you can get yourself tons of exposure to the program, your chance sare good if you are a good student. now consider any allo ent program. 50+ applicants trying to get it, all with the same or relatively the same scores, many of them rotating through the hospital to look at the program, much less individual attention i would assume to differentiate you from the rest of the pack. thats just my .02
 

ddmo

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Ratch,
First of all, this assumes that a person wants to stay and practice in Michigan. Second, what you have described is esentially the same at almost any school... mainly that you have an advantage applying to the residency spots you have rotated through. It is no different than the fact that my odds of getting a surgical subspecialty in any Detroit hospital are going to be much higher than yours since I know all the programs. Finally, if anything this only gives you an advantage in getting "a" residency in this field, it doesn't allow you much room for discretion and trying to find a great program within the country. Which is to say that many of the osteo residencies are not in the type of academic or urban environments that typically produce the best residencies.

I'm not saying osteopaths don't get good residencies, only refuting your statement that they have an advantage to allo applicants.
 

Ratch

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ddmoore54 said:
Ratch,
First of all, this assumes that a person wants to stay and practice in Michigan. .
Yup, thats why i stated that initially. most michigan state COM students choose to stay in MI, as opposed to alot of other COM colleges, who come to MI to find a residency.

ddmoore54 said:
Second, what you have described is esentially the same at almost any school... mainly that you have an advantage applying to the residency spots you have rotated through." .
No, you come and rotate through our hospital for 3-4 weeks. We stay at that hospital for 12+ months.

ddmoore54 said:
It is no different than the fact that my odds of getting a surgical subspecialty in any Detroit hospital are going to be much higher than yours since I know all the programs. Finally, if anything this only gives you an advantage in getting "a" residency in this field, it doesn't allow you much room for discretion and trying to find a great program within the country.".
A great program within the country? where do you want me to look? i am interested in GU and 8 of the ten programs are here in MI, and i will check on the other two. likewise with ENT. again, i am interested in surgsub

ddmoore54 said:
Which is to say that many of the osteo residencies are not in the type of academic or urban environments that typically produce the best residencies.".
I could NOT agree with you more. I wish there were more osteopath hospitals affiliated with academic institutions that acted like other university based allopathic institutions. but hey, wish in one hand, **** in another right?

ddmoore54 said:
I'm not saying osteopaths don't get good residencies, only refuting your statement that they have an advantage to allo applicants.
there is more competition within an allo residency. my best example would be if you wanted a spot at your home institution. you would have alot of time to get to be known within the hospital, and be known within the specific program. and then come application time, there are a whole buncha people who are gonna apply for it. now go to an osteopathic hospital, same situation you want to get a spot at your home institution where they know you well. and guess what, only 8 other joes are applying for the spot, instead of 80. again, i agree the quality of the training is not gonna be the same as at ann arbor, but you can't knock the advantage there...
 

ddmo

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Ratch said:
Yup, thats why i stated that initially. most michigan state COM students choose to stay in MI, as opposed to alot of other COM colleges, who come to MI to find a residency.



No, you come and rotate through our hospital for 3-4 weeks. We stay at that hospital for 12+ months.



A great program within the country? where do you want me to look? i am interested in GU and 8 of the ten programs are here in MI, and i will check on the other two. likewise with ENT. again, i am interested in surgsub



there is more competition within an allo residency. my best example would be if you wanted a spot at your home institution. you would have alot of time to get to be known within the hospital, and be known within the specific program. and then come application time, there are a whole buncha people who are gonna apply for it. now go to an osteopathic hospital, same situation you want to get a spot at your home institution where they know you well. and guess what, only 8 other joes are applying for the spot, instead of 80. again, i agree the quality of the training is not gonna be the same as at ann arbor, but you can't knock the advantage there...
1) The initial question was pertaining to "better residencies," not just those in Michigan.

2) If you read what I wrote, I wasn't talking about rotating through your hospitals at all. My point was that I have the same advantage at my "home" hospitals as you do at yours. It's not a purely osteo bonus.

3) The majority of the osteo residencies for those specialties may be in MI, but not the majority of those residencies in allo and osteo.

4) If you think there are only 8 people applying for those residencies than you are out of your mind. Since MI has 25% of osteo residencies, you are competing against a great deal of out of staters for those.

The overall point is that by going osteo you are limiting yourself to a very small number of possible residencies, many of which aren't especially good residencies. The only other option as a DO is to apply to allo programs, and the odds of landing one of those spots are very slim.
 

Ypo.

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Last I heard, CHM accepted up to eight students from each class into the RPP. ? I know because I applied to that program last year.

OP-second year at CHM is problem-based learning format, whereas COM stays more in the traditional lecture format.
 

Ypo.

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ddmoore54 said:
The overall point is that by going osteo you are limiting yourself to a very small number of possible residencies, many of which aren't especially good residencies. The only other option as a DO is to apply to allo programs, and the odds of landing one of those spots are very slim.
Ahh. Yes, well, like Ratch has been trying to get across to you, at MSUCOM you are protected from some of the harsher realities that many DOs face.

OP-MSUCOM is a great school, has a greater range (and more) affiliated high quality residencies than other osteopathic schools, and in part because you rotate at the same place for 12 months, your chances of getting into your choice of residency are much higher than the rest of the DOs in the nation. Only a small minority of the COM class even does the allo match-this is because they have found there are enough high-quality osteo residencies in Michigan to suit their ambitions. If you are going into a field that is ultra competetive, then whether your are applying to the DO/MD match, your numbers will have to be very competetive, and your research experience impressive. Now, it is true that there are way more residencies to apply to in the allo match, and that as a DO in the allo match you are at a disadvantage for some specialities. So, look into it before you make your final decision. Ask around at MSUCOM about plastic surgery residencies.
 

ddmo

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An interesting caveat about plastics and all this MD/DO stuff. There is a metro Detroit magazine called Hour Detroit and in the back recently they had a special advertising section for plastic (cosmetic) surgeons. There were maybe a dozen physicians advertising their practices, and all of them refered to themselves as John Smith, MD., etc. That is except for one, who refered to himself as Dr. Michael Gray. Interestingly, Dr. Gray is the only DO of the bunch and the only one to call himself Dr. and leave out his degree, and he never mentions his osteopathic roots in his one page article. Obviously this surgeon is self conscious about his degree for some reason. Personally, I think behavior like that does a diservice to osteopathic medicine, but ohh well.
 

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ddmoore54 said:
An interesting caveat about plastics and all this MD/DO stuff. There is a metro Detroit magazine called Hour Detroit and in the back recently they had a special advertising section for plastic (cosmetic) surgeons. There were maybe a dozen physicians advertising their practices, and all of them refered to themselves as John Smith, MD., etc. That is except for one, who refered to himself as Dr. Michael Gray. Interestingly, Dr. Gray is the only DO of the bunch and the only one to call himself Dr. and leave out his degree, and he never mentions his osteopathic roots in his one page article. Obviously this surgeon is self conscious about his degree for some reason. Personally, I think behavior like that does a diservice to osteopathic medicine, but ohh well.
At Dr.Gray's office he has D.O. on his sign, business cards etc. I actually had a conversation with him and he was truly proud of his osteopathic background. I did not get the impression in any way that he was self-conscious about being an osteopath.
 

ddmo

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No, you are correct, I didn't say it wasn't on his sign or cards. However, I do find it odd that he is the only surgeon refering to himself as "Dr.". He also mentions his education, but doesn't mention going to an osteopathic school. Everyone else is M.D., F.A.C.S. Why isn't it Michael Gray, D.O.??????
 

Ypo.

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ddmoore54 said:
No, you are correct, I didn't say it wasn't on his sign or cards. However, I do find it odd that he is the only surgeon refering to himself as "Dr.". He also mentions his education, but doesn't mention going to an osteopathic school. Everyone else is M.D., F.A.C.S. Why isn't it Michael Gray, D.O.??????
Maybe you are reading too much into it?