Military dentists like earning less

[navdoc47]

It still amazes me that dental students sign up for HPSP scholarships, from a financial point of view.

For example, the California state prison system pays a minimum $180K per yr to dentists. Benefits include not deploying and not moving every 2-3 yrs. Dollar for dollar, you're much better off borrowing the money, not to mention the huge lifestyle difference (just ask any military dentist who has deployed to the Middle East).

http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/Career_Opportunities/HR/OPS/Exams/Exams_Dental/index.html

Do the math

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[jfitzpat]

It still amazes me that dental students sign up for HPSP scholarships, from a financial point of view.

For example, the California state prison system pays a minimum $180K per yr to dentists. Benefits include not deploying and not moving every 2-3 yrs. Dollar for dollar, you're much better off borrowing the money, not to mention the huge lifestyle difference (just ask any military dentist who has deployed to the Middle East).

http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/Career_Opportunities/HR/OPS/Exams/Exams_Dental/index.html

Do the math

Let me get this straight. You take the most extreme example of starting pay you could find, pawn it off as normal, and then say that it makes HPSP not financially worth it. For every first year dentist making 180K, there are hundreds that make 100k-125k a year. Plus working on prison inmates all day, every day, does not sound like much fun. I would much rather work on the people defending our country.

But because you asked, here is the math. I admit, I go to an expensive school:

Tuition: My school is 45k a year. Assuming that 7% (stafford is at 6.5% and grad plus is at 8.5%) interest clocks on what your borrowing and tution increases 3% a year, it will be $225,000 after four years. This is a big area where people screw up because they say "oh, tuition is 45k a year so after four years, I will have borrowed 180k", and thats wrong because interest runs on much of what you borrow and tuition never says the same.

Stipend: I am too lazy to type up everything here, but it is conservatively a 100k over the four years.

Bonus: The Navy gave me a 20k bonus.

So.................the total beneft is about 345k. If you borrowed that much, it would cost you $97,000 a year (at 6%) to pay off over four years (the length of the hpsp committment).

A Navy dentist makes around 65k-75k a year, while a freshly minted private dentist makes around 125k, so that is around a 60k difference. That is 60k pretax versus 97k after tax and that is assuming you paid it off in four years, which no one would (meaning it would really be more because of all the interest).

Long story short, from a financial point of view it DOES make sense for many people, but money shouldn't be the driving motivation. I know that you are a huge anti military medicine guy over on the other board, but we don't get nearly the negative attitude over here and maybe you should stick to b*itching over there.

 

[trickybenny]

Great post JFitzpat,

One of our professors did a presentation over the finances of paying off dental school with making over 100K/year. Basically stating just how difficult it can be to pay off student loans after taxes, mortgage, etc. Our school started off with 2 HPSP students and this semester, 7 more students signed up for 3 year HPSP scholarships. Anyone that can pay off student loans, at my school an estimated 250-300K in 4 years, is eather living off of 30K for those years or is in the top 5% of new graduate salaries. To believe that someone can pay 70K/year post tax on loans seems ludicrous to me.

Since entering dental school our tuition has increased 18% and is posed to increase another 18% next year.

 

[bass for less]

Great post JFitzpat,

One of our professors did a presentation over the finances of paying off dental school with making over 100K/year. Basically stating just how difficult it can be to pay off student loans after taxes, mortgage, etc. Our school started off with 2 HPSP students and this semester, 7 more students signed up for 3 year HPSP scholarships. Anyone that can pay off student loans, at my school an estimated 250-300K in 4 years, is eather living off of 30K for those years or is in the top 5% of new graduate salaries. To believe that someone can pay 70K/year post tax on loans seems ludicrous to me.

Since entering dental school our tuition has increased 18% and is posed to increase another 18% next year.

18%? That sounds crazy.
It's still less than what Pacific charges thou.

 

[livingdreams]

Hi! I was wondering how much Dentists in the Air Force make (salary) a year.

 

[jfitzpat]

Hi! I was wondering how much Dentists in the Air Force make (salary) a year.

Depends on where you live. Run a search for "military pay calculator" and punch in the location you want to know about and 0-3 with zero years. Don't forget the dental bonuses that now total 13k (I think) a year.

In short, though, you can expect to make around 65k-75k a year.

 

[jb54ram]

Hi! I was wondering how much Dentists in the Air Force make (salary) a year.

I just figured this out last night---
I am entering Army next month---will make 58, 821.88 if I live on post, but if off post I will get 85,593.88 with BAH pay

 

[jfitzpat]

I just figured this out last night---
I am entering Army next month---will make 58, 821.88 if I live on post, but if off post I will get 85,593.88 with BAH pay

I'm a little curious about how you got that number, because it seems a little high to me. When I punch 0-3 with zero years stationed in San Diego (the most expensive city I can think of), with three dependants, and 13k in bonuses, I still only get 82k. Do you have prior service? Not trying to offend, just curious if I'm calculating wrong or something.

 

[jb54ram]

I'm a little curious about how you got that number, because it seems a little high to me. When I punch 0-3 with zero years stationed in San Diego (the most expensive city I can think of), with three dependants, and 13k in bonuses, I still only get 82k. Do you have prior service? Not trying to offend, just curious if I'm calculating wrong or something.

No offense taken---I think I was wrong, I think my numbers will be
3407.40 for 03 zero years monthly salary
250 and 208.33 for VSP and BAS
10k annually for DSAP

the BAH I used for me was West Point NY which is 2174 monthly---when I looked at a site last night I think I accidentally plugged in NY City and it was 2280 something---and it threw my number up a few thousand---I think the number below is more accurate
$82,476.76

 

[MaxAnn]

It still amazes me that dental students sign up for HPSP scholarships, from a financial point of view.

For example, the California state prison system pays a minimum $180K per yr to dentists. Benefits include not deploying and not moving every 2-3 yrs. Dollar for dollar, you're much better off borrowing the money, not to mention the huge lifestyle difference (just ask any military dentist who has deployed to the Middle East).

http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/Career_Opportunities/HR/OPS/Exams/Exams_Dental/index.html

Do the math

Well, I doubt I would've made it through dental school without the Navy. There is no way. I am going into my final year, and there were times when the hpsp literally saved my ass; I mean the difference between eating and starving. Loans will only get you so far especially if you don't have significant family help. There are thousands of clinicians who would've never gotten to college, let alone professional school without military aid. It is the best option for some people. I am glad I live in a country where I can get a top notch education for 4 yrs of service.

 

[desert rat]

For student loans you need to calculate the payout time and interest. If it is a 20 year payout at a 4% interest then it makes sense to borrow. As the years go along so does your earning potential. Also the interest is a tax deductible expense. This also will help to build a credit history.

I did the HPSP and I can tell you that I and most others still had to borrow some money to cover other expenses. The stipend is the same no matter where you go to school and in some places it will not be near enough to live on. Try making student loan payments on a $58,000 salary verses a $100,000 a year salary.

Also when you do the HPSP you will need to buy about $2000 worth of uniforms before basic. Make sure you budjet that. Also budjet for your trip to OBC and then other expenses while in OBC.

As a dissabled vet (dentist when dissabled) the dissability is OK. At a 44% dissabled it is about $600 a month tax free. To get 44% would to have an injury that is very severe like a loss of limb or use of a limb, or traumatic brain injury etc. If you are 100% dissabled you get about $2600 a month tax free for life with full medical/dental. 100% dissabled is so severe you can't work. Example PTSD (almost all vets are a little PTSD some are severe), loss of legs, loss of vision, brain damage. Medical personell do get alot of PTSD. Medical personell do have injuries in war and peace time. The military is a very dangerous job.

A good thing to keep in mind is that in branches like the Army a residency is a must. You will have ample opportunity to get a residency in a specialty or an AEGD. If you want to be a specialist than that is a plus. Their specialty programs are easier to get into.

 

[desert rat]

Interesting stats:

Private practice Salary $100,000 5 days a week 8 hours a day
$200,000 with 4% loan paid over 20 years = 14,000 a year
$100,000 salary - $14,000 loan = $86,000
no weekends, no nights, no mobilities, no war, stable, can buy house and work on equity, boring.

Military Salary $56,000 (guess) 7 days a week 8-18 hours a day
$20,000 loans (items beyond stipend needed) paid over 20 years at 4% = $1040
$56,000 - $1040 = $54960
Weekends at war or on ships, possible nights, mobility, war, moving around no chance for equity in a house, exciting as all get out.

Private practice you can put $45,000 a year into retirement accounts.
Military free retirement accounts, but you have to serve 20 years to collect and is less than you can accumulate in private practice.

No matter how hard you try there is no way to compare private practice to military for financial reasons. Private practice with loans will always come out ahead. The only reason for military is because you want the fun of it.

New grads can find jobs paying $100,000 a year easy. You just have to be willing to work where you are needed and not where you may want to be.

 

[btizzels]

Interesting stats:

Private practice Salary $100,000 5 days a week 8 hours a day
$200,000 with 4% loan paid over 20 years = 14,000 a year
$100,000 salary - $14,000 loan = $86,000
no weekends, no nights, no mobilities, no war, stable, can buy house and work on equity, boring.

Military Salary $56,000 (guess) 7 days a week 8-18 hours a day
$20,000 loans (items beyond stipend needed) paid over 20 years at 4% = $1040
$56,000 - $1040 = $54960
Weekends at war or on ships, possible nights, mobility, war, moving around no chance for equity in a house, exciting as all get out.

Private practice you can put $45,000 a year into retirement accounts.
Military free retirement accounts, but you have to serve 20 years to collect and is less than you can accumulate in private practice.

No matter how hard you try there is no way to compare private practice to military for financial reasons. Private practice with loans will always come out ahead. The only reason for military is because you want the fun of it.

New grads can find jobs paying $100,000 a year easy. You just have to be willing to work where you are needed and not where you may want to be.

First off loans are probably more like 8% from what i heard at interviews, and for my school tuition, books, fees, and room and board would probably be 300K unless of course i eat only top ramin.. then it might be 250K. I am not sure what the military pays but i am pretty sure it is more then 56K with all the bonuses / Housing allowance. My class also gets a 20K signing bonus (only Navy and Army). You forget taxes my friend on your 100K so heres more of the breakdown

100K- 40% = 60K
60K-14K(assuming it is 4% and not 8%) and you get 46K. Not exactly a baller

I would say financially it makes sense to be completely out of debt in 4 years rather then over 20 or 30 years.

But what do i know I am not a Dentist yet......???

 

[jfitzpat]

Interesting stats:

Private practice Salary $100,000 5 days a week 8 hours a day
$200,000 with 4% loan paid over 20 years = 14,000 a year
$100,000 salary - $14,000 loan = $86,000
no weekends, no nights, no mobilities, no war, stable, can buy house and work on equity, boring.

Military Salary $56,000 (guess) 7 days a week 8-18 hours a day
$20,000 loans (items beyond stipend needed) paid over 20 years at 4% = $1040
$56,000 - $1040 = $54960
Weekends at war or on ships, possible nights, mobility, war, moving around no chance for equity in a house, exciting as all get out.

Private practice you can put $45,000 a year into retirement accounts.
Military free retirement accounts, but you have to serve 20 years to collect and is less than you can accumulate in private practice.

No matter how hard you try there is no way to compare private practice to military for financial reasons. Private practice with loans will always come out ahead. The only reason for military is because you want the fun of it.

New grads can find jobs paying $100,000 a year easy. You just have to be willing to work where you are needed and not where you may want to be.

As I'm sure you would gather from my above post, I disagree. Please point out where my above analysis is flawed and I will edit it. Otherwise, here are a few things I note about your calculations:

1. Most kids who take HPSP would have much more than 200k in debt. I know I would. Also 4% is not the going interest rate for student loans right now. Stafford is 6.5% and Grad Plus is at 8.5%. Some consolidators will fudge it down some, but it definitely hasn't reach 4% again yet.

2. Student loans are paid with after tax dollars. You take them out pretax and don't account for the tax benefits of being military.

3. Military dentists are making more than 56k a year. In fact, with the newly changed ASP, it is pretty consistently going to be at minimum 70k.

4. Unless you are deployed, you are certainly not working seven days a week, eighteen hours a day.

Overall, I think that your post is very skewed against the program and fudges things to get there. I might be guilty of that as well, so let me know if I am. I completely agree that there are other nasty aspects to being a military dentist that would scare people away, but I stand by my analysis above that it is well worth the money from a purely financial point of view. Quality of life and all that, I agree all bets are off.

 

[jfitzpat]

.

 

[makushin]

I think the financial analysis of the Military scholarship by pre-dents is a joke. Maybe it's because you guys are all life science majors. I have meant to give this analysis for a long time, so here it is.

I will be attending one of the cheapest dental schools in the country this fall. It is about 25-30k per year tuition. I have a background in economics. I have made the excel spreadsheet. Even though I will be attending a relativly affordable school, I will have to average about $170k my first four years in private practice to match the military. How, you ask?

You have to count interest accrual on loans during school, and you have to basically pretend pay yourself interest on the stipend/bonus you will be getting, because money now is always worth more than money later. I used 6% for both. I assumed max subsidized stafford. I assumed a 20k bonus, and 4 year scholarship. Using this math with all the interest, I'm ~$125k better off at graduation from getting school paid for, and I'm ~$125k better off at graduation from stipends, bonus', and summer AD pay.

So at graduation I'm $250k better off then my classmates. Now we say they all take out a loan at this point for $250k to try and match me. They even get a great interest rate of 5.5%. And it is a 4 year loan, so we will all be debt free 4 years out of school. This will be a $5.8k monthly payment over those four years. After taxes.

So my classmates are out making the big bucks, but have this hypothetical $5.8k loan payment to be debt free 4 years out of school like me. They cannot deduct any interest if they are single earning over 70k, or married earning over 140k joint. I'm active duty Navy stationed in a CONUS average base. My military reimbursement will average over $75k over these four years, when you include the current bonuses, tax advantages, BAH, and officer pay. Now my former classmates are in the real world with brutal taxes, and will need $8k income to pay back $5.8k loan, assuming total tax rate of 27%, which is probably unrealistically conservative.

Now add it up. My classmates will need to make ~$95k/year to pay off the loans, and another $75k to match my pay. In this hypothetical situation, they need to average $170k/year during the first 4 years out of school to match me!

If you go to a school that costs more than Buffalo, which most of you do, you will need to make even more, possibly much much more.

If you intend to use loans instead of military, you are also certainly better off to spread them over 30 years. Why? Because of inflation. If we have a period of high inflation during those 30 years, which IMO is very likely with our economic situation, your effective debt will tumble. This is an intangible advantage to NOT using the military, difficult to put a number on. Also, the military person may be earning smaller salaries at year 5+ since they got a late start on private practice. I do not value this because from what I gather, when you are this experienced, you will have the skillset to start out much higher than a fresh dental school grad. And the private practice people will probably not be settled into a permenant situation at this point anyway. Besides, who really wants to work at the same place for 30+ years? Not me.

My point isn't that the military is a great financial decision. My point is that it is probably rarely a poor financial decision. Without going into the analysis, I think one situation where it is certainly a poor financial decision is if you intend to specialize in one of the lucrative specialties.

I haven't decided to accept HPSP yet, if offered. I'm not trying to say the military is great. But I did do the spreadsheet, and I see a lot of misinformation about the financial aspect of the HPSP. Hopefully this changes some of these perspectives.

 

[desert rat]

Thanks for pointing out my generalizations and slightly over and under estimates.

I am not against the military HPSP, but I do think the decision to go into military should not be one based on economics only.

What I see interesting is how in the 1980s there was more of a desire to enter military because it was seen as a great income option. It was hard to find good dentist positions then. In the 1990s the were too many dental positions open and people made great incomes and so most chose not to go military. I went in in the Army dental corps in the early 1990s, as a young man I had already served 8 years in the Air Force enlisted while attending college part time. Most of the senior ranking dentists told me they wish that the opportunities were better back in the 80s because they would not have done the military.

Now we are in a time of economic downturn and dental opportunities are beginning to go away. Schools are getting expensive (out of control), less patients are able to afford dentistry, cosmetic dentistry is decreasing, more people are on welfare than I have ever seen.

Suddenly military dentistry is becoming an attractive option. If it were not for war it would be awsome. If the average dentist fresh out of school earns100,000 a year, and in much of rural America they still can, then the above average graduate should earn about $200,000 a year. How does a person know if their good or not? It comes down to how fast you are(efficient). Also how confident you are. I have worked with many that can easily earn $200,000 a year.

While i was in the Army I was lucky and stationed stateside by a large city. I worked one day a week part time. Fresh out of school I produced about $2500 a day and that was many, many years ago. producing $4000 a day fresh out of school is not hard. I am an average dentist and was then. $200,000 a year is very easily achieved for many. this is if the economy stays stable and dentistry is still in favor.

I did 10 years in the military. I loved every day of it. I really enjoyed the playing war and being gung ho. Shooting guns, rapelling, jumping out of planes, camping (ha), was a blast.

I grew up military and spent a large amount of years in it, and as a dissabled vet I still hang out with vets at the VA hospital. I went military not for money, but for love of the military. Many of my peers hated every day and cried to get out. Those people ruin it for everyone. I want to help make sure the people not a fit for the military don't join for the wrong reasons.

 

[jmick101]

Pacific costs an easy 250k. HPSP commitment is 3 years. Debt free after three years? You gotta be kidding me. 3 years of Army time for that? I can do three years of Army standing on my head. There is no argument at all here; the HPSP just makes sense.

AND you are serving your country. If that last point doesnt appeal to you, then dont even bother with the first. That is what it boils down to. If you can see yourself serving, if you think that you can handle the sacrifices, then the financial arguments make perfect sense. If not, no amount of money would do.

 

[jfitzpat]

I think the financial analysis of the Military scholarship by pre-dents is a joke. Maybe it's because you guys are all life science majors. I have meant to give this analysis for a long time, so here it is.

If you intend to use loans instead of military, you are also certainly better off to spread them over 30 years. Why? Because of inflation. If we have a period of high inflation during those 30 years, which IMO is very likely with our economic situation, your effective debt will tumble. This is an intangible advantage to NOT using the military, difficult to put a number on. Also, the military person may be earning smaller salaries at year 5+ since they got a late start on private practice. I do not value this because from what I gather, when you are this experienced, you will have the skillset to start out much higher than a fresh dental school grad. And the private practice people will probably not be settled into a permenant situation at this point anyway. Besides, who really wants to work at the same place for 30+ years? Not me.

I can't speak for the others here, but I have a business degree and I am a former attorney who worked in the area of commercial banking. I agree with most of what you say (in fact, most of it is pretty similar to what I said above) with the exception of the stuff about inflation. Spreading loans out over thirty years counting on inflation doesn't make sense unless you can put the money saved somewhere else earning a better rate.

The fact is that if you can pay it off, you should pay it off. 350k at 6% over 30 years means you pay 400k in interest. At ten years, you will only pay 100k in interest. If there is inflation, the only thing that will change is that your debt will feel like less, but in the end, you're still out an additional 300k. Twenty years from now, you're debt will be "effectively" less, but not less than than the guys who's loans were paid off ten years before.

 

[makushin]

I can't speak for the others here, but I have a business degree and I am a former attorney who worked in the area of commercial banking. I agree with most of what you say (in fact, most of it is pretty similar to what I said above) with the exception of the stuff about inflation. Spreading loans out over thirty years counting on inflation doesn't make sense unless you can put the money saved somewhere else earning a better rate.

The fact is that if you can pay it off, you should pay it off. 350k at 6% over 30 years means you pay 400k in interest. At ten years, you will only pay 100k in interest. If there is inflation, the only thing that will change is that your debt will feel like less, but in the end, you're still out an additional 300k. Twenty years from now, you're debt will be "effectively" less, but not less than than the guys who's loans were paid off ten years before.

Well I disagree. At this time, student loan money is some of the cheapest money available. Investment wise, I believe it would be more wise to concentrate on building a practice and such, rather than paying off these loans. I also personally believe there is a very high chance of this country seeing a period of high inflation in the future to ease some of our massive debts. Historically speaking, when countries go into massive debt, they hyperinflate in order to restore balance. Now I'm not saying there will be hyperinflation, but I think the alternative to inflation would not be acceptable to anyone in this country. Wether you agree with me on that is a matter of personal opinion. But if there is such a period, having loans at 6% is an enviable position to be in.

As an example, consider someone that bought a house in the 1960s with a 30 year loan at a good interest rate. After the 70's happened, the *real* balance on that mortgage became very small.

 

[jfitzpat]

Well I disagree. At this time, student loan money is some of the cheapest money available. Investment wise, I believe it would be more wise to concentrate on building a practice and such, rather than paying off these loans. I also personally believe there is a very high chance of this country seeing a period of high inflation in the future to ease some of our massive debts. Historically speaking, when countries go into massive debt, they hyperinflate in order to restore balance. Now I'm not saying there will be hyperinflation, but I think the alternative to inflation would not be acceptable to anyone in this country. Wether you agree with me on that is a matter of personal opinion. But if there is such a period, having loans at 6% is an enviable position to be in.

As an example, consider someone that bought a house in the 1960s with a 30 year loan at a good interest rate. After the 70's happened, the *real* balance on that mortgage became very small.

I totally agree that their position post inflation is better than it was pre inflation. I'm just saying that debt is debt and it is always better not to have it and be making money in investments than betting on changing interest rates. Obviously, it's a matter of fiscal opinion that is debatable and we just fall on different sides.

 

[Aceofspades]

I totally agree that their position post inflation is better than it was pre inflation. I'm just saying that debt is debt and it is always better not to have it and be making money in investments than betting on changing interest rates. Obviously, it's a matter of fiscal opinion that is debatable and we just fall on different sides.

Agreed. Plus, if you were to take the difference in monthly payment (10yrs vs 30yrs) and try to beat the interest rate that may prove difficult. Firstly, everyone is saying 6% when Stafford is 6.8%. More importantly Stafford has a limit of around 140K and Grad Plus is 8.5%. Nevertheless, you have to pay taxes on any stock market earnings which would make it harder to consistently beat 8.5% (the worse of the two percentages).

In addition, counting on inflation/hyperinflation to save you sounds inherently risky. Laws can change and the tax bracket/system can change, especially if inflation starts to rise like that.

And makushin said that analysis from pre-dents is a joke. Well, that may be so but I didn't realize they teach financial analysis in dental school. I have seen plenty of dental school graduates that still have no real clue how to conduct financial analysis. In general, that holds true for the population. Most people fail to factor in many variables and overstate their expected income making for unrealistically optimistic predictions.

For what it's worth, I too have created a spreadsheet to see what the difference will be. My sheet is dynamic, and I found that the military option for all 4 years is always financially better than the loan option for general dentistry, if one pays full sticker price for a school and does not live at home for free. Parents paying, sugar daddies/mommies, scholarships, specialties, and the likeness will obviously change that.

And yes, it's not all about money. The military route may be better financially, but that doesn't mean it will be better overall. Even with all loans, most people should be able to pay off loans and live comfortably. In addition, 4 extra years of your life can be a big deal. You could spend that time getting a foothold in your practice and establishing yourself.

Just a pre-dent's 2 cents.

 

[KOM]

I worry a little about some dentists compromising a patient's care early on in practice when they're strapped with all that debt. I bet it's a bit more tempting to "over-treat" patients when they've got to make those hefty loan payments each month. Not only that, their prices probably aren't going to provide greater access to dental care which is something I think we as future dental professionals will really need to address in the future. Either that or we'll see what's happening here in MN right now.

 

[OBL1V1ON]

its the intangibles that truly make the difference. really think hard about not being in control of your life. it may seem a small thing to be on the military's beck and call but once it finally sinks in that you gotta do what they say for the next 4 yrs (and youre their's for the next 8 if they need you)....youll understand why that freedom you had before is so highly rated. after being in the military for 7 years ive come to realize that the military preys on ignorant and naive people (young people). i dont mean that to be offensive, but i see it all the time. its rampant in the army. the recruting practices are nearly criminal.

all that being said i know tons of guys that would give their left leg to stay in the military. you just gotta be that type of person i guess.

think really hard about your freedom before you decide to join. dont let the money even come into the decision.

*note
i have nothing but the uttmost respect for people that, knowing all this still decide to serve, because ive realized after 7 yrs in the military....they call it "service" for a reason.

 

[makushin]

Agreed. Plus, if you were to take the difference in monthly payment (10yrs vs 30yrs) and try to beat the interest rate that may prove difficult. Firstly, everyone is saying 6% when Stafford is 6.8%. More importantly Stafford has a limit of around 140K and Grad Plus is 8.5%. Nevertheless, you have to pay taxes on any stock market earnings which would make it harder to consistently beat 8.5% (the worse of the two percentages).

In addition, counting on inflation/hyperinflation to save you sounds inherently risky. Laws can change and the tax bracket/system can change, especially if inflation starts to rise like that.

And makushin said that analysis from pre-dents is a joke. Well, that may be so but I didn't realize they teach financial analysis in dental school. I have seen plenty of dental school graduates that still have no real clue how to conduct financial analysis. In general, that holds true for the population. Most people fail to factor in many variables and overstate their expected income making for unrealistically optimistic predictions.

For what it's worth, I too have created a spreadsheet to see what the difference will be. My sheet is dynamic, and I found that the military option for all 4 years is always financially better than the loan option for general dentistry, if one pays full sticker price for a school and does not live at home for free. Parents paying, sugar daddies/mommies, scholarships, specialties, and the likeness will obviously change that.

And yes, it's not all about money. The military route may be better financially, but that doesn't mean it will be better overall. Even with all loans, most people should be able to pay off loans and live comfortably. In addition, 4 extra years of your life can be a big deal. You could spend that time getting a foothold in your practice and establishing yourself.

Just a pre-dent's 2 cents.

I never factored inflation into my financial analysis. I merely stated that if there is indeed a period of high inflation, then there would be a large advantage to having the loans.

As far as the interest rates go, I said 6% because many of the banks offer interest deduction for ontime payments and such. I'm sure this can change, but with my home states loan program they add up to actually much more than .8%. I did not include private loans, because I should not need them in my situation. Also I think you may be wrong about the 140k limit. Either that or my school plans to stiff me with loans during D4, as they have allocated $41k stafford to me for D1.

My financial analysis may not be perfect. But it is a lot better then "omg army dentists make like 50k/year, add on the 40k/year they give you during school, and army dentists only make like 90k/year!"

 

[jeffma]

i am an army dentist...been in for 4 years. I did the hpsp scholarship, and it is not worth it. the hygienist working next to you is making more than you. you are a CPT and treated like a PVT. I had more freedom when I was in high school. Not to mention you have to get your permission slip approved (leave form) anytime you want to go somewhere. And forget about "real" dentistry. I also had problems with my assistant, and I requested another. My OIC and Commander told me that I was only a CPT and did not get the luxury and choosing who I wanted to work with. I could ramble on about the problems myself and many other CPT's are having, but the bottom line is don't do it. my good friend from dental school who does not have as good of hand skills as mine associated for a year and then bought the practice. he grossed 1.9 million last year. plus all his earnings are through is corporation which means he gets to write off health ins, cell phones, computers, vacations with his family to cool CE, etc BEFORE taxes...not to mention a great retirement plan you can set up for yourself (simple IRA, etc.) and have you corporation match your contribution 100%. military dentistry doesn't make since these days unless you can't hack it on the civilian side. true, civilian dentist have a hectic day, but it is 4 days a week and NO babysitter. i am not lazy either. I am the highest producer in my clinic. my obligation is up next summer and i;m outta here.

hope this helps some of you.

the biggest compliment i have of military dentistry is that you really are doing a good service...i enjoy talking and taking care of soldiers.

Jeff

 

[Devil Doc]

i am an army dentist...been in for 4 years. I did the hpsp scholarship, and it is not worth it. the hygienist working next to you is making more than you. you are a CPT and treated like a PVT. I had more freedom when I was in high school. Not to mention you have to get your permission slip approved (leave form) anytime you want to go somewhere. And forget about "real" dentistry. I also had problems with my assistant, and I requested another. My OIC and Commander told me that I was only a CPT and did not get the luxury and choosing who I wanted to work with. I could ramble on about the problems myself and many other CPT's are having, but the bottom line is don't do it. my good friend from dental school who does not have as good of hand skills as mine associated for a year and then bought the practice. he grossed 1.9 million last year. plus all his earnings are through is corporation which means he gets to write off health ins, cell phones, computers, vacations with his family to cool CE, etc BEFORE taxes...not to mention a great retirement plan you can set up for yourself (simple IRA, etc.) and have you corporation match your contribution 100%. military dentistry doesn't make since these days unless you can't hack it on the civilian side. true, civilian dentist have a hectic day, but it is 4 days a week and NO babysitter. i am not lazy either. I am the highest producer in my clinic. my obligation is up next summer and i;m outta here.

hope this helps some of you.

the biggest compliment i have of military dentistry is that you really are doing a good service...i enjoy talking and taking care of soldiers.

Jeff

Thanks for your contribution Jeff. I am an 11 year vet of the military, so I can relate to some of your complaints. What is your take on specializing in the Army? Do you feel that the military is a good place to get your specialty education? Thanks

 

[KOM]

It's interesting that at least 75% of the military complaints that seem to be coming up are from the army branch. Strange how the military experience can vary so much from one branch to another.

I heard over and over that the AF is the best branch to get into and that's why I applied to it. Why do some people opt to join the army branch in the first place when there seems to be such a decrease in overall satisfaction?

 

[ClickityClack]

moving around no chance for equity in a house,

Wrong. Unless everyone stops PCSing just to screw with you.

No matter how hard you try there is no way to compare private practice to military for financial reasons.

True, but I'm trying to be a dentist not an accountant.

New grads can find jobs paying $100,000 a year easy. You just have to be willing to work where you are needed and not where you may want to be.

Sounds like the military to me, minus $40K a year. That $40K x 4 years = $160K = who cares. That $160K is buying me loan repayment, VA loan program which I'll use on my next house and civilian practice, a better understanding of how to work with spoiled hygienists, free health care, mentorship, a lower tax bracket, a military funeral which nobody will attend, making people salute me in front of their family, a chance to live in Europe again without speaking Deutsch, a healthy respect for things other than myself, free gym membership, paid gun club dues, the chance to live in a place where people actually respect themselves and other people again.

It's just four years.

 

[ClickityClack]

Why do some people opt to join the army branch in the first place when there seems to be such a decrease in overall satisfaction?

Your question actually answers itself. Too many people treat the Army as if they're going to work at Wal-mart. They come in, figure out that the Army doesn't think they're "mama's special little munchkin", and get recycled for the next guy when they fail. People don't realize this, because they're distracted and drawn to the big bright sign in front. Just like a chain store, the Army just likes the steady influx of people. You may be holding a handpiece, but you're just a cashier to the military ("Next please"). Complaining ensues, and then you ETS.

 

[ClickityClack]

On the positive side, I, for one, appreciate the original posting. It's nice to see other alternatives, which I am looking into. I'm interested in how the cost of living in California compares. I.e, price of a 3 bedroom compared to the usual $140K or so around the military posts that I've been stationed so far. I'm not being sarcastic, I'd just like to know the standard of living for a civilian working in a prison. I'm imagining being able to afford nice vacations to the Keys, but also the considerable risk of Hepatitis and Tyrone/the Aryan Nation.

 

[makushin]

I was at the dentist today and found out he did a 3 year army hitch from 89-92. He signed up for this AFTER dental school. He did it just so he could get a GPR and live in Alaska. He said he only made like $35k/year or something when he was in and was still carrying full student loans. He had mostly positive things to say, and said he would do it again. This is coming from a guy that has built a succesfull private practice.

I also saw my oral surgeon recently. He did 12 years AF. He also had positive things to say. He said he was able to get great experience in the AF since the patient doesn't have to worry about cost. He also said the CE and residency opportunities were very valuable. He saw these factors as the best part of the military.

 

[Smills91]

I was at the dentist today and found out he did a 3 year army hitch from 89-92. He signed up for this AFTER dental school. He did it just so he could get a GPR and live in Alaska. He said he only made like $35k/year or something when he was in and was still carrying full student loans. He had mostly positive things to say, and said he would do it again. This is coming from a guy that has built a succesfull private practice.

I also saw my oral surgeon recently. He did 12 years AF. He also had positive things to say. He said he was able to get great experience in the AF since the patient doesn't have to worry about cost. He also said the CE and residency opportunities were very valuable. He saw these factors as the best part of the military.

There's a lot more to job satisfaction than pure money and the military offers MANY of these things, while still arranging a solid compensation in the process. While I want to be compensated for my worth as a dentist, it's not my numero UNO priority either. As long as I make enough to support my family without my wife HAVING to work, get time with my kids and family then I will be VERY content with my earnings.

 

[makushin]

another anecdote:

My bro-in-law spent 10 years in the AF as an enlisted guy. He was only an E5, but was probably making about $45-50k or so, as he had some good bonuses. He got out of the AF last year and immediatly scored a job at $105k.

The thing is, him and my sis are really shocked at how little $105k gets you in the private sector. They paid zero income taxes in the military. Now they have a solid tax bill. They can't shop on commisary. They lost many perks. For example, 18 holes of golf on base is like $15-20.

My sister has basically indicated that it doesn't seem like they have that much more money. They thought they were finally going to be rolling in dough, but the reality is that it isn't that much different.

Point is... there are a lot of perks with the military that you will never see in the private sector. I suspect that generally the O3 lifestyle is not much less than the typical recent graduate lifestyle. Of course you have military BS to deal with, but associate BS is probably pretty lame too.

 

[Chachito]

For me, it was because the Army offered a 4-year scholarship, and the AF only a 3. If I was still going to graduate 100k+ in debt, I figured why do the scholarship at all.

It's interesting that at least 75% of the military complaints that seem to be coming up are from the army branch. Strange how the military experience can vary so much from one branch to another.

I heard over and over that the AF is the best branch to get into and that's why I applied to it. Why do some people opt to join the army branch in the first place when there seems to be such a decrease in overall satisfaction?

 

[btizzels]

For me, it was because the Army offered a 4-year scholarship, and the AF only a 3. If I was still going to graduate 100k+ in debt, I figured why do the scholarship at all.

Same but I went with the Navy instead of the Army

 

[OffAngleHatchet]

For example, the California state prison system pays a minimum $180K per yr to dentists. Benefits include not deploying and not moving every 2-3 yrs.

Cons include getting shanked by your patient with the explorer you just used in your patient's mouth.

 

[Karsten Hain]

This post has been beaten to death, but I had to comment simply that it isn't necessarily about just dollars and cents. For some it is a sense of adventure before settling down into 30 years of practice. For others it is avoiding a ludicrous amount of indebtedness. For still others, like me, the living is respectable, the time commitment is short, and the love and adoration of country and desire to say, "Yeah, I stood up and served", is great.

 

[bass for less]

Yeah, and the ASP for dentists has been increased. WOOT!

 

[OLDwood]

I did 7 years in the Navy, and left as an E5. I will be applying to DS next year with a son and wife.....

2 years is a lot of time to decide, but i'd like to know now if "going" back and doing another 13 years for retirement (then get out and do some private practice for 10 more years...) purposes is wise and financially better.

Loans scares me big time. I'm also in my middle 30's when I start DS if I get accepted next year.


My second question is:
Why are you guys so focused on making money in your profession when you can ALSO invest say in real state and other business venture while doing dentistry???

 

[Smills91]

I did 7 years in the Navy, and left as an E5. I will be applying to DS next year with a son and wife.....

2 years is a lot of time to decide, but i'd like to know now if "going" back and doing another 13 years for retirement (then get out and do some private practice for 10 more years...) purposes is wise and financially better.

Loans scares me big time. I'm also in my middle 30's when I start DS if I get accepted next year.


My second question is:
Why are you guys so focused on making money in your profession when you can ALSO invest say in real state and other business venture while doing dentistry???

If you do the HSCP through the Navy your four years of dental school count TOWARDS retirement, adding on your 4 years of payback commitment that's leave you with just 5 years left for retirement. Do an AEGD/GPR for one year and then sign on for one last 4 year commitment after your initial payback and you're at your retirement time.

Make sure you get into a in-state D-School in order to maximize the HSCP program for you and your family financially, though.

 

[dentalOH]

If you do the HSCP through the Navy your four years of dental school count TOWARDS retirement, adding on your 4 years of payback commitment that's leave you with just 5 years left for retirement. Do an AEGD/GPR for one year and then sign on for one last 4 year commitment after your initial payback and you're at your retirement time.

Make sure you get into a in-state D-School in order to maximize the HSCP program for you and your family financially, though.

To retire as an officer, you must have at least 10 years active commissioned service. Unless he wanted to retire as an enlisted member (not a chance), he would need to do 6 years in addition to his 4 year payback.

 

[OLDwood]

So,

I had 7 enlisted years PLUS:

4 years HSCP + 1 year AEGD + 4 years HSCP payback + 4 years AEGD payback + 2 years more = 10 (officer) years active

Total of 22 years (enlisted plus officer)

If AEGD doesn't count towards active officer.

 

[eric275]

So,

I had 7 enlisted years PLUS:

4 years HSCP + 1 year AEGD + 4 years HSCP payback + 4 years AEGD payback + 2 years more = 10 (officer) years active

Total of 22 years (enlisted plus officer)

If AEGD doesn't count towards active officer.

Just to clarify, there is no payback for AEGD. It's a neutral year which means that while your not paying back HPSP/HSCP time your also not incurring any additional comittment. Also, while attending an AEGD you are an active duty 0-3 so that time would count towards retirement.

 

[rook56]

If a dentist were to moonlight four days per month along with his normal military days, about how much could he/she earn per year. It seems to me that moonlighting would change things a bit.

 

[eric275]

If a dentist were to moonlight four days per month along with his normal military days, about how much could he/she earn per year. It seems to me that moonlighting would change things a bit.

I spoke with a dentist a couple of years ago that said he worked in a private practice every saturday while in the AF and made an extra $45k a year.

 

[HawkeyeDDS]

I moonlight about 3-5 days a month, saturdays and some training holidays, and bring home an extra 3-4k a month. It gives us a little cushion which is nice, but moonlighting is not automatic. It varies based on location and local command policies. Plus 6 days a week sucks sometimes, but it is nice to actually be paid for what you do....ie % of production.

If a dentist were to moonlight four days per month along with his normal military days, about how much could he/she earn per year. It seems to me that moonlighting would change things a bit.

 

[kevin512]

Check out this finical report on HPSP vs Private/Associate practice:

http://www.geocities.com/toothpickrules/Income_comparison.html?1210792634897

I found out that I need a salary of $186,000 (in an associate/private practice) to even be competitive with HSPS's benefits.

 

[bass for less]

To me the 6.8% interest rate would be unbearable.

Does anyone know if you can get refinanced to reduce that rate?

 

[SoonerFan]

Just to clarify, there is no payback for AEGD. It's a neutral year which means that while your not paying back HPSP/HSCP time your also not incurring any additional comittment. Also, while attending an AEGD you are an active duty 0-3 so that time would count towards retirement.

eric275,

I just left the Bernheim Dental Clinic to PCS here to Fort Knox, I miss you Rangers. Talk about the best patients out there!! Sorry, for the personal post but I saw your eric"275" and the icon you have posted....


SoonerFan