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is anyone planning on doing the HPSP scholarship for any branch? just wondering!
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Im thinking about doing the national guard program.
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Im doing it...Air Force style.
Just did the MEPS.
Id say, only do it if you want some experience (i.e. at least kind of like) the military. Personally, I've always wanted a taste of the military and look forward to it.
Just did the MEPS.
Id say, only do it if you want some experience (i.e. at least kind of like) the military. Personally, I've always wanted a taste of the military and look forward to it.
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What's the wifey think about it? This is currently the hot topic of debate around the house...
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What's the wifey think about it? This is currently the hot topic of debate around the house...
Hey, didn't know you were considering it too...yeah, wifey likes it. It helps that we have a couple friends doing the HPSP medical, and one doing JAG and are enjoying it.
Our key factors:
Pros
-I like the adventure of military (at least temporarily). We don't have one place we need to live, so being assigned somewhere is not a problem, and the chance to live abroad is a plus. (ie, going back to Germany for a few years) they have great schools for kids.
-$20,000 signing bonus, no debt, and getting officer pay during school...yes please.
-the chance to consider staying with the air force and getting retirement pension after only 20 years. (probably not going to do this, but we'll see how it goes. The more I get involved, the more I actually enjoy being an officer in the air force)
Cons:
-officer training once a year 4-6 weeks. Yeah, you get officer pay, but being away from family is rough. But, being a slave to $250,000 debt might take you from family time/vacations etc in the future. So, commitment now for freedom later won out here.
-possible deployment without fam. Would be tough, but same reasoning as above.
-some say the residency issue is a problem. Its not really for me, but its something to look into
So, there's the short answer...you'd have to like the military to want to do this. I'm not a hard core type, but I like the physical training, leadership training and experience and other things in the military, so this is perfect for me. Luckily, my wife feels the same
If all else fails, just tell your wife she can have a $20K shopping spree with the signing bonus...
haha
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I just wanted to add this, for anyone reading this or contemplating HPSP:
DO YOUR OWN (EXTENSIVE) RESEARCH FIRST!!!
There are some people who have severely regretted signing up for the military for numerous reasons. Almost all of them have noted that if they had known what they were getting into, they wouldn't have done it. Naturally, it follows that they should have known, but their stories can be a good warning and precaution to anyone following.
Make sure you know the (potential) cons of military service and that you are ok with them.
DO YOUR OWN (EXTENSIVE) RESEARCH FIRST!!!
There are some people who have severely regretted signing up for the military for numerous reasons. Almost all of them have noted that if they had known what they were getting into, they wouldn't have done it. Naturally, it follows that they should have known, but their stories can be a good warning and precaution to anyone following.
Make sure you know the (potential) cons of military service and that you are ok with them.
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Same here. For me the potential GMO tour, delaying residency, is the entire reason I decided against it.
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I don't want to come off as negative-you can find plenty of that over in the milmed forum-but you have a few incorrect assumptions/statements here. BTW I am best described as ambivalent on milmed given my own experiences, but I agree that correct information is key to at least not hating your time in milmed.
Look, I know I probably sounded a little harsh and negative, but you don't seem as fully informed as you seem to think you are. You (conceptually speaking) are the future miserable milmed doc. You need to do a lot more research. Talk to some more active duty AF docs. Read the milmed forum here knowing the vagaries of internet message boards. I'm not saying it won't seem worth it to you at the other end, but you'll only be doing yourself a favor by becoming more informed.
Hey, didn't know you were considering it too...yeah, wifey likes it. It helps that we have a couple friends doing the HPSP medical, and one doing JAG and are enjoying it.
Our key factors:
Pros
-I like the adventure of military (at least temporarily). We don't have one place we need to live, so being assigned somewhere is not a problem, and the chance to live abroad is a plus. (ie, going back to Germany for a few years) they have great schools for kids.
I realize that this is going to be the most subjective statement here, but I'm not sure that most .mil docs would describe milmed as adventurous. Yes deployments might be so (and, obviously, those come with downsides) and there are certainly some docs who've carved a niche doing some pretty interesting things (specops medicine, etc), but, on the whole, it's pretty run-of-the-mill medicine in pretty average facilities (the best ones at least). Don't buy into the idea of less admin, paperwork, and insurance hassles. There's an abundance of the former two and Tricare is its own kettle of fish. As for Germany, for overseas spots, it's one of the most desirable and isn't an easy one to get first time out. Not impossible, but don't look at it as a gimee.
-awesome health care starting now.
Huh, what? Last I knew HPSP payed for the member's (only-not their family's) school health insurance. You are only eligible for Tricare benefits for the times you are on active duty >30 days (i.e your ADTs [Active Duty for Training tours]). Overall, while there are islands of excellence (combat trauma, aeromedical transport) and quite good (pediatrics, ophtho [at least in regards to corrective surgery]) in military medicine, overall, milmed is, at best, average and, unofrtunately, in a lot of places, below average. Don't go in starry eyed.
-$20,000 signing bonus, no debt, and getting officer pay during school...yes please.
No arguing there, that is a nicety.
-flight benefits (and the many other military benefits)
In general, military members who aren't flight crew are eligible for space available travel on .mil flights. This is not like flying on a civilian airline. You don't just get a seat on a plane and you don't buy a ticket. There are priorities (and, while in med school as an inactive reservist, you will be of the lowest priority, unable to take family members. Even while on active duty, the logistics can be pain enough that there aren't a tone of people who do it. Here is a dated thread on space A: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=281207). As for other benefits: free health care is nice. Like I said, I think the world of pediatrics is quite good in the .mil. Adult medicine? Well, not so much. It'll do, but don't expect your SO to love going to an MTF for healthcare (again, there will be some exceptions). Just my opinion.
-the chance to consider staying with the air force and getting retirement pension after only 20 years. (probably not going to do this, but we'll see how it goes. The more I get involved, the more I actually enjoy being an officer in the air force)
What involvement has led you to enjoy being an officer in the AF? Particularly a medical corps officer?
Cons:
-officer training once a year 4-6 weeks. Yeah, you get combat pay, but being away from family is rough. But, being a slave to $250,000 debt might take you from family time/vacations etc in the future. So, commitment now for freedom later won out here.
1. No you don't. You get plain old pay.
2. We live in a time in which future pay on the civilian side is unpredictable. But, in current times, remember HPSP is best described as a loan. There is a good chance you lose enough money during the time as a milmed doc as compared to your civilian peers that that $250K debt, on its surface, is a wash. When you add in more unpredictable features of being in (future command climates, quality of training, quality of support staff, competitiveness of certain fields in milmed vice in civilian land), it may be less than a wash.
-possible deployment without fam. Would be tough, but same reasoning as above.
Yes, same as above. But let me add this. Is everyone's experience bad? No, not at all. Mine, in many ways, has been very good. But not many people are going to be as galactically lucky as I've been, and there really are quite a few people who find themselves awaiting their end of service at best and miserable at worst. If you aren't as lucky as me, and you find yourself in a place where deployment is more tolerable than being at home station, your wife might not be as enamored of everything as she is now.
-some say the residency issue is a problem. If I need to explain it, let me know (even PM me if you want). For me, this isn't really an issue.
Do you know why "some say" this? Really? Why isn't it an issue for you? This is far more critical than you make it out to be. And, not to be overly harsh, but: don't give people advice on this. I suspect you have no real context and the ignorant giving advice to the ignorant leads nowhere good for anyone.
So, there's the short answer...you'd have to like the military to want to do this. I'm not a hard core type, but I like the physical training, leadership training and experience and other things in the military, so this is perfect for me. Luckily, my wife feels the same
You're not going to do a lot of group physical training in the AF. You'll be expected to pass fitness standards twice a year (an aggregate score based on waist circumference, push ups, sit ups, and a 1.5mi run http://www.airforce-pt.com/male30-39.html). Your squadron might run together a few times a week. That's about it. But a lot of AF bases have really nice gyms which are free, so that's good. Leadership training, beyond COT will be nil, unless you are approaching higher ranks.
If all else fails, just tell your wife she can have a $20K shopping spree with the signing bonus...
Look, I know I probably sounded a little harsh and negative, but you don't seem as fully informed as you seem to think you are. You (conceptually speaking) are the future miserable milmed doc. You need to do a lot more research. Talk to some more active duty AF docs. Read the milmed forum here knowing the vagaries of internet message boards. I'm not saying it won't seem worth it to you at the other end, but you'll only be doing yourself a favor by becoming more informed.
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J-Rad
Thanks for the input on the subject. I totally agree that knowledge is power, but it can be very difficult to find reliable sources of info. Especially when one doesn't know active duty military docs and the only person you can actually find who's willing to talk is a recruiter, and we all know how they like to give you the full picture.
Some things that I was hoping you could clarify...
My first question has to do with military doctor compensation. You mentioned that you get paid less as a military doc and that if you were to work as a civilian instead you could make enough more to pay off the loans yourself. I'm assuming your talking about the 4 years of active duty that are required, and I guess you could possibly include 3 yrs of residency pay, which I didn't calculate for. In order for the tuition and fee payments from the military to be a wash, when considering getting paid less during active duty, you would have to be getting paid nearly $60K less per year as a military doc as compared to a similar civilian job. I'm assuming around $250K total that the military will help pay for. Is that accurate, that military docs get paid nearly $60K less per year than civilian docs? Where can I find published info on this pay difference?
Keep in mind that the total debt assumed to be paid off ($250K) would actually be significantly more if you were paying off a loan since there will be interest accruing until its paid off. In that case, if the military covers $250K of tuition and fees and health insurance for the student, in reality they are saving the student more than $250K.
Also, you mentioned that serving as a GMO was worse than what Halflistic was implying, but I was disappointed that you didn't elaborate. From what I understand, you serve a 1 yr "internship" and 2 yrs as a GMO if you don't get into any of your matches for residency. Those three years, again from what ive heard, count towards your "payback" of active duty time. Also, I understand that you then become much more desirable for matching and should then more easily get into your preferred specialty. Upon finishing your residency you would then only have 1 yr of active duty left (assuming your residency was 5 yrs or less and that the military paid for 4 years of school, not 3) and then you just have 4 yrs of inactive reserves left. So, my point is, if the GMO takes time off of your active duty "payback" and will help you get into your desired residency match that you failed the first time, how is it so bad?
I'm definitely not looking to argue at all, just trying to think through this logically and get as much info as possible to make informed decisions.
Thanks!
Thanks for the input on the subject. I totally agree that knowledge is power, but it can be very difficult to find reliable sources of info. Especially when one doesn't know active duty military docs and the only person you can actually find who's willing to talk is a recruiter, and we all know how they like to give you the full picture.
Some things that I was hoping you could clarify...
My first question has to do with military doctor compensation. You mentioned that you get paid less as a military doc and that if you were to work as a civilian instead you could make enough more to pay off the loans yourself. I'm assuming your talking about the 4 years of active duty that are required, and I guess you could possibly include 3 yrs of residency pay, which I didn't calculate for. In order for the tuition and fee payments from the military to be a wash, when considering getting paid less during active duty, you would have to be getting paid nearly $60K less per year as a military doc as compared to a similar civilian job. I'm assuming around $250K total that the military will help pay for. Is that accurate, that military docs get paid nearly $60K less per year than civilian docs? Where can I find published info on this pay difference?
Keep in mind that the total debt assumed to be paid off ($250K) would actually be significantly more if you were paying off a loan since there will be interest accruing until its paid off. In that case, if the military covers $250K of tuition and fees and health insurance for the student, in reality they are saving the student more than $250K.
Also, you mentioned that serving as a GMO was worse than what Halflistic was implying, but I was disappointed that you didn't elaborate. From what I understand, you serve a 1 yr "internship" and 2 yrs as a GMO if you don't get into any of your matches for residency. Those three years, again from what ive heard, count towards your "payback" of active duty time. Also, I understand that you then become much more desirable for matching and should then more easily get into your preferred specialty. Upon finishing your residency you would then only have 1 yr of active duty left (assuming your residency was 5 yrs or less and that the military paid for 4 years of school, not 3) and then you just have 4 yrs of inactive reserves left. So, my point is, if the GMO takes time off of your active duty "payback" and will help you get into your desired residency match that you failed the first time, how is it so bad?
I'm definitely not looking to argue at all, just trying to think through this logically and get as much info as possible to make informed decisions.
Thanks!
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Thanks for the info. Its always good to have responses from those with experience. I don't think you were overly negative...your response is typical of many others, and as I have mentioned before (in other areas of the forum as well) Im not yet sold on the HPSP.
But then again, trying to explain the entire set up in a few lines is impossible...which is why I made the comment of doing your own research. I have two friends in AF as docs now and one doing JAG in his first year. Much of my info comes from them.
I wonder if some of your info is outdated or wrong/mis-interpreted? Esp regarding pay(I'm fairly certain pay is increased during ADT/COT...though you say its not?), health insurance (I was told my insurance was paid for and my family get its subsidized), money ( if you compare Primary Care doc's in and out of military, you actually come out ahead being in the military, financially. And, for most specialties, you wash or come out a little behind. UNLESS you want to go neuro-surgery, plastics...or other very high paying specialties, you wont loose much, and might gain.)
But, I wont go on, because I want to hold to my statement of everyone needing to do their own research. This forum and the milmed thread has not been a great source for me personally...too many contradictions. But, thanks again for your input, and hopefully you wouldn't mind if I PM'ed you in the future if I have a few questions?
**edit:
Also, your comment about residencies did rub me the wrong way... The biggest mistake most people in your position make is assuming that your experience and desires translate to everyone else's. It doesn't.
I am typing from a phone here, so sometimes I cant explain all that is needed to have a full conversation about any given subject...so its somewhat frustrating when someone comes along and assumes that someones entire knowledge base is represented by a few lines typed on an internet forum.
That was a mini rant, but really...just state your info and assume that people know a little more than can be typed out casually on an internet forum...
ok, rant over
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"Our key factors:
Pros
-$20,000 signing bonus, no debt, and getting officer pay during school...yes please.
-flight benefits (and the many other military benefits)
Cons:
-officer training once a year 4-6 weeks. Yeah, you get combat pay, but being away from family is rough. But, being a slave to $250,000 debt might take you from family time/vacations etc in the future. So, commitment now for freedom later won out here.
-possible deployment without fam. Would be tough, but same reasoning as above.
I wonder if some of your info is outdated or wrong/mis-interpreted? Esp regarding pay(I'm fairly certain pay is increased during ADT/COT...though you say its not?),"
During school you DO NOT get active duty officer pay, you get a monthly stipend (plus tuition/books/and fees)
Sometimes you can arrange rotations where you will get paid as if you were on active duty for the length of the rotation while you are in school. During your service, when you are away for training you may qualify for TDY/Per Diem when you are away from your family (your "pay increase"). This is dependent on length of training, where you go, and what you are doing. Combat pay is an entirely different thing, and only applies when your are deployed to a combat zone.
Having your family separated is tough, it is tough when it is just training, and more than tough when it is combat related. If you are in a highly deployable unit it happens a lot, and gets old very fast. Do not take this lightly It is easy to gloss over when you have never done it, but it is incredibly stressful for you and your family. Make sure you talk to people that have done this on active duty in combat, and talk to their families too.
This is a huge commitment, worth more than the money. My two cents.
Pros
-$20,000 signing bonus, no debt, and getting officer pay during school...yes please.
-flight benefits (and the many other military benefits)
Cons:
-officer training once a year 4-6 weeks. Yeah, you get combat pay, but being away from family is rough. But, being a slave to $250,000 debt might take you from family time/vacations etc in the future. So, commitment now for freedom later won out here.
-possible deployment without fam. Would be tough, but same reasoning as above.
I wonder if some of your info is outdated or wrong/mis-interpreted? Esp regarding pay(I'm fairly certain pay is increased during ADT/COT...though you say its not?),"
During school you DO NOT get active duty officer pay, you get a monthly stipend (plus tuition/books/and fees)
Sometimes you can arrange rotations where you will get paid as if you were on active duty for the length of the rotation while you are in school. During your service, when you are away for training you may qualify for TDY/Per Diem when you are away from your family (your "pay increase"). This is dependent on length of training, where you go, and what you are doing. Combat pay is an entirely different thing, and only applies when your are deployed to a combat zone.
Having your family separated is tough, it is tough when it is just training, and more than tough when it is combat related. If you are in a highly deployable unit it happens a lot, and gets old very fast. Do not take this lightly It is easy to gloss over when you have never done it, but it is incredibly stressful for you and your family. Make sure you talk to people that have done this on active duty in combat, and talk to their families too.
This is a huge commitment, worth more than the money. My two cents.
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During school you DO NOT get active duty officer pay, you get a monthly stipend (plus tuition/books/and fees)
thanks, but I know that. I think you mis read something here.
Sometimes you can arrange rotations where you will get paid as if you were on active duty for the length of the rotation while you are in school. During your service, when you are away for training you may qualify for TDY/Per Diem when you are away from your family (your "pay increase"). This is dependent on length of training, where you go, and what you are doing. Combat pay is an entirely different thing, and only applies when your are deployed to a combat zone.
Yes, this is the pay increase I was talking about...its something. Hopefully most people realize my lists were quick and dirty and typed from a phone, so obviously I listed bullet points... but you seem to back them up
Having your family separated is tough, it is tough when it is just training, and more than tough when it is combat related. If you are in a highly deployable unit it happens a lot, and gets old very fast. Do not take this lightly It is easy to gloss over when you have never done it, but it is incredibly stressful for you and your family. Make sure you talk to people that have done this on active duty in combat, and talk to their families too.
This is a huge commitment, worth more than the money. My two cents
This is the worst part of it for me. That and having to (most likely) postpone residency training while serving as a GMO for a few years.
I appreciate your two cents. This wouldn't be something that I just jump into, and I hope others dont either.
As I stated earlier, ALL the people I have talked to who have regretted accepting the HPSP have said that they wished they would have known what they were getting into. Those people who have enjoyed it knew what they were getting into. Expectations are a major source of happiness or unhappiness. Hopefully I can get a good, full picture before I make any final decisions
but first...I still need an acceptance
.
thanks
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Army HPSP hopefully. Long shot my recruiter says but so is going to medical school.
Went through MEPS, all cleared, paperwork in and ready to go when I get my acceptance. Literally the 3rd phone call on my list.
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Most won't care... money is money regardless of where it's coming from (military vs Stafford vs private loan).
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Oh amen to this. I'm amazed each year by how many 4th year medical students, at the start of their residency application process, ask me about the rules and regulations regarding residency spots and what their plan should be to get into their field of choice since the military does things differently than the civilian world. And my first thought is: a full understanding of the ups (there are some) and downs (there are some significant ones) of the military residency process should have been learned before signing the HPSP contract; not stumbled across when you get to 4th year.
Unlike your civilian counterparts, a military medical student (USUHS, HPSP, etc) really has to understand the entire GME process prior to starting medical school because you will be bound by certain very specific regulations and requirements which are a big deal to some people and no big deal to others (depending on what your life plans are... although you may find those change unexpectedly as time goes on), but once you sign the contract you are bound to those regulations and requirements. And depending on your life plans, a civilian path may be significantly easier.
I might agree with you somewhat on primary care fields (peds, IM, FM). Since your average PCP in the civilian world clears (after office expenses/bills/payroll, etc) between 80-150k, the military isn't a bad alternative. Figure you start at 60k, add in BAH/BAQ for rank (now total is up to ~75k), plus VSP and ASP (now up to ~95k) then you're coming out pretty even. And once you get board certified you can get your ISP (add on another ~10k). So there's parity there because the military doc has no overhead expenses.
But beyond that the gulf is significantly more. Certainly for any surgical or medical subspecialty the amount you can make in the civilian world is much more than in the military (these specialists will get more in the form of the ISP bonus than the GP, but only 20-30k more). For other fields like ER, anesthesia, radiology, etc, the ISP can't come near making up the difference in pay inequality. As an ER guy I'm getting about half of what my civilian counterparts make and with the job field being what it is, the groups they're joining are fully covering their malpractice, health insurance, etc so it removes those perks from the equation.
On the flip side...
My loan balance after residency is significantly lower than theirs (I had to take out living expense loans, but it's pretty small comparatively). Are my civilian counterparts able to pay off their loans during my 4 year commitment? Yes. But realistically are they? No. Paying off the entirety of a loan during 4 years and living in very modest housing and being very frugal is the exception not the norm. Most physicians are going to extend their loan payback over a decade or more. What they do have that I don't is a greater fiscal freedom of choice as well as a lifestyle freedom of choice.
But it was my choice to sign the HPSP contract all those years ago and now I'm making good on my promise. And even knowing what I know now I wouldn't go back and change it.
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Thanks for your info,
...speaking to your first paragraph, I think one of the reasons why you see 4th years undereducated is how difficult it is to get information on this matter. Its such a polarized conversation that most of us making the decision get frustrated with the entire discussion.
But its very clear that pay for specialists is much greater outside of the military. I wonder how many actually stay in the military though?
Personally, this is my understanding and thought process as I decide whether or not to accept the HPSP:
Ill get the signing bonus and living stipend while in med school. I have a wife and kids, so I will also take out loans for living costs. Many of my married (w/kids) friends in medical school are barely getting by on the financial aid package set up by their schools, hence the incentive for me to have the extra $2000 monthly (and the 20K bonus) to be able to give my family a little financial security while Im in school.
Ill have the 45 day trainings to attend each summer, where we will have slightly higher pay and military benefits (which is considered active duty and I think counts for some of the reserve commitment?)
Then, when its time for residency, I will have to apply for the military residencies, but I can also apply for the DO and MD civilian options. BUT, most likely I will have to go on a 3 year GMO tour and then come back for residency.
At that time, I could be somewhat competitive for a given specialty and attend either a military or civilian program. If I go for civilian, I can complete the program and then owe my 4 years active (and reserve) but after the 4 years leave and go to the civilian world. If I stay with the military and my residency is longer than 4 years, then I owe that number of years in active duty (ie a 5 year surgical residency, then I owe 5 years instead of 4). During the 4 years I would be up for deployment every 15 months, I believe? I have heard that most have only one deployment, but Im sure that cant be counted on (this is the worst part of the deal in my opinion)
So, when I compare them, it looks like I'll be more comfortable financially during medical school if I go HPSP, but it will cost me time (from the likely GMO tour), decreased pay compared to civilian, (and some say if you go for military residencies they are lower quality...?).
Am I off somewhere? Am I missing anything?
I tried this time to be more comprehensive about it, so hopefully someone can come by and fill in any gaps...
I read in another thread that you can ask for more loan money from the financial aid office if you have kids to support. No one wants to be the reason for kids to starve. Just tell them that they are killing your kids. They'll give you the money.
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Halflistic, thanks for laying that out there in a detailed fashion. That's basically what I understood the process to be as well. The only difference I heard of is that a 5 yr residency and below would add nothing to your active and inactive duty requirements. Only residencies of 6+ years add to it, starting with one year for a 6 yr residency, two for a 7 yr, etc
Also, something that I have been unable to determine anywhere is whether or not the "45 day" ADT's count towards your active duty requirement. I also wonder if any of a GMO tour would pay some of that required time off.
I'd love to have these questions, and the ones Halflistic asked, answered if anyone can. Thanks
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Also, something that I have been unable to determine anywhere is whether or not the "45 day" ADT's count towards your active duty requirement. I also wonder if any of a GMO tour would pay some of that required time off.
I'd love to have these questions, and the ones Halflistic asked, answered if anyone can. Thanks
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Lol, med schools aren't kid killers, huh?
Seriously though, do they offer these "extra" loans through the stafford or graduate plus loans through the govt or are they private loans? I know schools calculate their "estimated cost of attendance" for the student and NOT for a family, but it seems like they could have some kind of a sliding scale for the federal loans based on number of family members.
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Lol, med schools aren't kid killers, huh?
Seriously though, do they offer these "extra" loans through the stafford or graduate plus loans through the govt or are they private loans? I know schools calculate their "estimated cost of attendance" for the student and NOT for a family, but it seems like they could have some kind of a sliding scale for the federal loans based on number of family members.
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Most likely Grad Plus since Stafford has a max cap at 224k for your lifetime.
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Aye, that's true, but frustration shouldn't get in the way of digging for the truth. And forewarned is forearmed. And I'm running out of alliterations.
HalfListic said:
The military hemorrhages doctors right around the 4 year mark, not surprisingly when their commitment is up. That occurs less so amongst primary care doctors (but still to a large degree)
HalfListic said:
During those times you'll be paid at the active duty rate; you'll be able to seek care at a military MTF. Your family however will have a much more difficult time of it. With a copy of your orders they can seek emergency care at a military medical facility but if there isn't one close by then they're back to going to a civilian hospital and that will not be covered (as your short time will only qualify you for Tricare Standard and not Tricare Prime) under most circumstances. You will be able to seek dental and optometric care while on your ADT but your family will not. Those TDY ADTs just aren't long enough for you to be gained to an installation and your active duty health insurance benefits activated. You and your family can go to a base and have exchange priviliges during that time, but again, unless you live right near a base it's not worth it.
HalfListic said:
You can only apply to the DO/MD matches if you have first succesfully obtained a deferral spot in the military match. If you don't get one of those then you may not accept a civilian contract (even if you got into your first choice location at a top tier program). The problem with the timeline is that you have to start the civilian match process while the military match process is still ongoing. So you'll spend a bit of money on the civilian match application, going on interviews, etc, and then might find out that you don't get a deferral spot and all that money is wasted. But if you don't start the process along with everyone else then by the time you find out that you did get a deferral spot it's too late to apply to civilian programs.
HalfListic said:
Well.. that's somewhat program specific. Yes, you would be competitive for a military program because you get more points on your application having finished a GMO tour. A civilian program would look at it somewhat different. You've had 4 years of steady work in a clinic treating relatively healthy people and are far removed from the academic rigors of a residency; you're actually more of a liability because you have many ingrained habits that may have to be broken, you're not as used to long hours of studying like your fresh-out-of-med-school counterparts, and there is frequently dissatisfaction at having to go back to presenting all of your patients and having your thought process questioned when you've spent 4 years doing things on your own. It doesn't disqualify you but it doesn't necessarily put you ahead in the civilian world either.
HalfListic said:
Yes
HalfListic said:
At least in the air force you are "vulnerable" for deployment 6 months out of every 24. Whether you go or not is dependent on need at the time of your vulnerable period. Assume that you will be deployed every time your window comes up and then if you don't go it's an unexpected present.
HalfListic said:
The quality of residency varies. The military has some smaller centers with residency programs and so your military population is smaller and healthier. But many of those programs also farm out some of their rotations to civilian hospitals around the region. Keep in mind that military residencies have to be accredited by the ACGME and the respective RRCs just like civilian programs so there is a standard that will be maintained.
HalfListic said:
Most certainly. But finding out where and what is half of the fun of military medicine.
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Thanks Willy...this makes sense, Ill have to look into it. Having enough money during school is a priority for me (making sure my kids can still go to gymnastics and other EC's and that my wife can be at home with them.)
Aye, that's true, but frustration shouldn't get in the way of digging for the truth. And forewarned is forearmed. And I'm running out of alliterations.
haha...very nice
You can only apply to the DO/MD matches if you have first succesfully obtained a deferral spot in the military match. If you don't get one of those then you may not accept a civilian contract (even if you got into your first choice location at a top tier program). The problem with the timeline is that you have to start the civilian match process while the military match process is still ongoing.
So, how likely is anyone to get a deferral spot? Are they (academically)performance based? Or military service based? Something else?
At least in the air force you are "vulnerable" for deployment 6 months out of every 24. Whether you go or not is dependent on need at the time of your vulnerable period. Assume that you will be deployed every time your window comes up and then if you don't go it's an unexpected present.
Im sure thats the best way to look at it. In practice, do most people get deployed every time? Once? Twice? It looks like the maximum would be two times, right? (assuming 4 years commitment?)
Most certainly. But finding out where and what is half of the fun of military medicine.
Boo!
Thank you very very much for your answers...this is great. The above are my last few questions about the matter, if you (or anyone else) are able to answer them?
Thanks again
edit: Also, anyone know what GMO pay is like?
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GMO pay is your officer pay + BAH + special duty pay, but you would not have the extra board certification pay.
As for the GMO tour, is this an Air force specific requirement or are you planning on volunteering for it? My Army contacts say that you only have to do this if you don't match into a residency.
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Thanks...Though I still am not sure about the numbers we are talking here (BAH? special duty?) what would this all equate to?
As far the GMO/Flight Surgery thing, its the same (similar to the army)...but the thing that is misunderstood is that those who have gone on some sort of tour have a BIG advantage over those who don't, so for competitive specialties, you will likely need to do a tour. This means, doing an internship year and then a two year tour.
The good thing, those two years count as payback, so you would then only have two (or three) years after you complete residency.
I, for one, don't think its that big of deal, as I stated earlier. I wouldn't mind being a flight surgeon for a couple years. There are pros and cons, but in the end...its temporary and its not that bad.
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The military does their residency match based on a point system. You get a certain number of points based on a variety of factors, they add it up and sort the list by point totals. So if there are 18 military spots and 12 civilian deferral spots, then the top 30 people on the list get a spot and then they go in order giving people first and second choice. Sucks to be #31.
HalfListic said:
It depends... with what the military is doing overseas currently, expect to go every time. But if the drawdown happens then maybe there'd be a slowdown. But that's only speculation. Mathematically you should only be able to go twice if you only do a 4 year commitment.
HalfListic said:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=military+pay+chart+2012+physician
Doctor Bob is currently my favorite attending on SDN.
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Here is a web site (info is a few years old but still close). The amount depends on specialty, location, and if you have any prior service.
http://www.militarygme.org/1.html
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you son of a...
Ok, we got a live one on our hands here. For your information, Dr B, I have googled the living daylights out of military pay and am only now beginning to understand it, sort of. There are several things that go into pay...
So, Im still lost on GMO pay...for me, I was just curious about how much a flight surgeon made.
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thanks
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you son of a...
Ok, we got a live one on our hands here. For your information, Dr B, I have googled the living daylights out of military pay and am only now beginning to understand it, sort of. There are several things that go into pay...
So, Im still lost on GMO pay...for me, I was just curious about how much a flight surgeon made.
Heh heh heh.
Yes, military pay is somewhat of a pain, plus there are bonus pays that doctors can get but only if you ask for them.
-Everyone gets a base salary (see the table; based on rank and time in service)
-Everyone gets BAH (a housing allowance based on your rank, dependents, and location)
-Everyone gets BAQ (a food allowance based on rank and dependents)
-Doctors automatically get VSP (a medical specialty pay just for being a doctor- interns and residents get this also but at a lower rate)
-Doctors can ask for ASP (a medical specialty pay for being a licensed physician- 15k a year)
-Doctors can ask for ISP (another medical specialty pay for being a licensed physician- between 20 and 36k a year)
-Doctors can ask for BSP (another medical specialty pay once you're board certified- about 5k a year)
The last 3 require some paperwork and if you don't ask for them you won't get them. The ISP can be replaced by MSP once your commitment is done and signing the MSP contract gets you a higher rate than ISP (runs 30-50k) but incurs additional years of service.
ASP and ISP contracts also incur a year of service obligation but it can be paid back concurrent with your HPSP or USUHS commitment so you don't actually extend your time in the military. VSP does not incur any service obligation.
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Thanks for this...now you are also my favorite SDN attending. Taking time out of your schedule to help us out here is very kind and also pretty rare to get a good quality answer several times.
Thanks!
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Anyone selected for the AF HPSP in the past mind sharing their stats?
Also, any idea how many spots are available this year?
I'm applying this year.
Also, any idea how many spots are available this year?
I'm applying this year.
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My friend is too. What is the height/weight requirement?
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I think I have the height/ weight info somewhere. I'll have to look for it tonight.
I spoke to my recruiter today.
There are 196 spots.
The Air Force has new minimums of 25 MCAT and 3.2 gpa.
My recruiter said the spots may not fill this year due to the new higher standards.
I spoke to my recruiter today.
There are 196 spots.
The Air Force has new minimums of 25 MCAT and 3.2 gpa.
My recruiter said the spots may not fill this year due to the new higher standards.
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is that cumulative minimum because if so my friend is within that range. He stands at 6'1''.
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The best bet for anyone is to shadow a military doctor in what you want to do so that you don't romanticize about your future. I was an operations officer for a Combat Support Hospital at Bragg for part of my career and I saw some doctors that loved it and some that were just waiting to get out.
Army Medicine:
1. Duty Stations: Specialty driven. If you are a neurosurgeon then you will only be a handful of places. If you are a family physician you are unlimited. We have a large number of bases on the east coast (Fort Drum, Fort Mead, Fort Eustis, Fort Bragg, Fort Jackson, Fort Benning, Fort Rucker, Fort Polk, Fort Campbell, etc) and a only a couple on the west (Fort Carson, Fort Hood, Fort Lewis, Fort Wainwright, Schofield Barracks). Overseas we have Korea, Germany and Italy. You might also be able to go to AF or Naval Facilities but generally not until you are more senior.
2. Deployments: Most doctors will deploy to one of the major Forward Operating Bases in the area. A smaller number will be part of Forward Surgical Teams in the middle of no where who provide stabilization for patients so they can reach the main hospitals. The FSTs are normally general surgeons, emergency trauma surgeons, and Ortho surgeons. We also had an orthospine guy that the army didn't want to deploy because of his specialty. If you are a family physician/internal medicine doctor you might also be put into Battalion/Brigade/Division surgeon spots as an adviser to the commander. (Equivalent in many ways to GMO tours in the Navy/AF. The ones I have met are all family physicians but there might be a chance they put you in this slot if they don't have enough physicians.)
3. Schools: There are a lot of military medical training opportunities you can attend to prepare for deployments. There are also opportunities to attend civilian/military fellowships. For Army schools you can also attend airborne, air assault, pathfinder, and ranger. It must be noted though that your primary job is as a physician and unless you were a ranger or special forces before it is hard to get into some of these schools.
4. Money: Same as Dr. Bob above mentioned regardless of service.
5. Physical Fitness: Its not like the infantry but I do have to say that the physicians I served with in the Combat Hospital were in great shape. Army puts a lot of emphasis on the PT test.
6. Hospital Facilities: Depends on the place. (which you may or may not have a chance to select yourself) Some bases have expansive hospitals with a lot of specialties while others are community hospitals. The Army seems to be investing more into their hospitals recently. They expanded Womack (Bragg), are building a brand new medical center at Fort Hood, and Walter Reed consolidated with Bethesda.
Financial Aid: Same regardless of service. Some options are:
-HSPS: 2,3, or 4 years. This requirement is served concurrently with your residency time. (4 years from medical school + 5 year residency=5 years left as an attending. or 4 years from medical school + 3 year residency =4 years left as an attending. (Take the higher year count and that is what you will have to serve as an attending)
-Financial Aid from Medical School: Come in after your residency on your own terms! (kinda...)
-Medical School Loans: Army will repay you $120,000 for your service after medical school for a time commitment.
Best bet is to find someone within the service and specialty you want to join and ask them what they think. If you are AF you could probably ask Dr. Bob above. The Military Med part of the forum could probably help you find physicians to talk with.
Army Medicine:
1. Duty Stations: Specialty driven. If you are a neurosurgeon then you will only be a handful of places. If you are a family physician you are unlimited. We have a large number of bases on the east coast (Fort Drum, Fort Mead, Fort Eustis, Fort Bragg, Fort Jackson, Fort Benning, Fort Rucker, Fort Polk, Fort Campbell, etc) and a only a couple on the west (Fort Carson, Fort Hood, Fort Lewis, Fort Wainwright, Schofield Barracks). Overseas we have Korea, Germany and Italy. You might also be able to go to AF or Naval Facilities but generally not until you are more senior.
2. Deployments: Most doctors will deploy to one of the major Forward Operating Bases in the area. A smaller number will be part of Forward Surgical Teams in the middle of no where who provide stabilization for patients so they can reach the main hospitals. The FSTs are normally general surgeons, emergency trauma surgeons, and Ortho surgeons. We also had an orthospine guy that the army didn't want to deploy because of his specialty. If you are a family physician/internal medicine doctor you might also be put into Battalion/Brigade/Division surgeon spots as an adviser to the commander. (Equivalent in many ways to GMO tours in the Navy/AF. The ones I have met are all family physicians but there might be a chance they put you in this slot if they don't have enough physicians.)
3. Schools: There are a lot of military medical training opportunities you can attend to prepare for deployments. There are also opportunities to attend civilian/military fellowships. For Army schools you can also attend airborne, air assault, pathfinder, and ranger. It must be noted though that your primary job is as a physician and unless you were a ranger or special forces before it is hard to get into some of these schools.
4. Money: Same as Dr. Bob above mentioned regardless of service.
5. Physical Fitness: Its not like the infantry but I do have to say that the physicians I served with in the Combat Hospital were in great shape. Army puts a lot of emphasis on the PT test.
6. Hospital Facilities: Depends on the place. (which you may or may not have a chance to select yourself) Some bases have expansive hospitals with a lot of specialties while others are community hospitals. The Army seems to be investing more into their hospitals recently. They expanded Womack (Bragg), are building a brand new medical center at Fort Hood, and Walter Reed consolidated with Bethesda.
Financial Aid: Same regardless of service. Some options are:
-HSPS: 2,3, or 4 years. This requirement is served concurrently with your residency time. (4 years from medical school + 5 year residency=5 years left as an attending. or 4 years from medical school + 3 year residency =4 years left as an attending. (Take the higher year count and that is what you will have to serve as an attending)
-Financial Aid from Medical School: Come in after your residency on your own terms! (kinda...)
-Medical School Loans: Army will repay you $120,000 for your service after medical school for a time commitment.
Best bet is to find someone within the service and specialty you want to join and ask them what they think. If you are AF you could probably ask Dr. Bob above. The Military Med part of the forum could probably help you find physicians to talk with.
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Is the bolded incorrect or something specific to the AF? My understanding was that a GMO tour would count as payback but completing a military residency would add more years of required service. So that if an applicant were to complete a 2 year GMO and attend a 4 year military residency, they would then owe another 4 years post residency.
I could have sworn I read somewhere that if you do a military residency then the time served in your residency counts towards your payback time. So if you did a five year residency in the military then you would be done.
This thread has totally changed my view of doing the HPSP. If I were to do a five year residency and then a five year service as an attending, I would be almost 40 by the time I was done. That is not something my wife would be excited about.
I do have a question though. If somebody were to get a deferred spot and did a civilian residency for five years, do they still only have to pay back four years of time or do they have to pay back five years?
This thread has totally changed my view of doing the HPSP. If I were to do a five year residency and then a five year service as an attending, I would be almost 40 by the time I was done. That is not something my wife would be excited about.
I do have a question though. If somebody were to get a deferred spot and did a civilian residency for five years, do they still only have to pay back four years of time or do they have to pay back five years?
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I cannot find the height/weight info. If your friend calls a recruiter they can tell him the weight standard for his height.
I'm not sure if that is cumulative or science gpa. My recruiter said 3.2 minimum and did not specify.
Sorry for the lack of info/help.
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There are plenty of threads on this in the milmed forum. Briefly, no, residency does not count toward your service obligation.
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Ditto what Roberie said. Residency does not count.
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As other's have said, residency time does not pay back a service obligation. Someone who does a five year residency like surgery will end up owing four years after residency is over. During that time they will be paying back three service obligations (A[ctive]D[uty]SO henceforth) concurrently. Presuming a four year term in HPSP one ADSO is for that (it would be three for a three year HPSP). Another ADSO being "payed off" is the Minimum Service Obligation (MSO) of three years. This is somewhat obscure, but functionally doesn't mean much to anyone since it is served concurrently with other ADSOs. The last ADSO being paid off is the four year term incurred by the in-service surgical residency. All intern years (PGY-1) are time neutral i.e. they do not pay off or incur a time-debt. So a strictly five year total surgical internship/residency incurrs a 4 year time debt that is paid off concurrently with the HPSP and MSO ADSOs. If a residency (PGY-2+) lasts more than four years, every year past four will incur another year of time debt. The Army gets people in surgery this way by requiring a research year, so their surgeons will often (all?) owe more than four at the end of their residencies.
Deferred residencies and fellowships do not incur any time debt. If you take a four year HPSP and do a five year (or even more years) residency in deferred status, you would owe the four years after residency during which you would be paying back the four year HPSP ADSO and the three year MSO concurrently.
For people who do an internship followed by a GMO (utilization tour), time spent on the utilization tour pays back the HPSP/MSO ADSOs. One could choose to get out after four years as a GMO having paid off all time debt. If one comes back into residency prior to paying off that debt, the remainder will be paid off concurrently with whatever time debt is incurred by the (in- service) residency.
Example: 4 year HPSP recipient-->intern year-->two years as GMO. Now has two years left on original obligations.
-->returns to complete last two years of a primary care residency (this may take longer than two years for different reasons, but lets make it a flat two years for easiness sake). Now owes two years time debt for the time spent in (PGY-2+) residency.
Total time after residency to pay back all remaining ADSO: two years in which the remainder of HPSP/MSO ADSO and the residency ADSO are paid off at the same time.
Any time spent in training out of service but on active duty getting paid by Uncle Sam (Full Time Outservice [Navy], civilian sponsored [Army/AF]) incurs a time debt that is paid consecutively to other ADSOs adding more years to the time owed. For the majority this is relevant to fellowships only. There is a minimum two year payback time, so one year sponsored fellowships will incur two years ADSO.
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Military Height Weight Requirements <<< click this link
To apply for a scholarship, a student must already be accepted into an accredited medical school and have high MCAT® exam scores (approximately 25 for the Army; the Air Force and Navy differ only slightly). All branches also have high GPA standards .. >>> cick link for more information "click here"
I am currently in my last year in a Biomedical Sciences master's program. Does anyone know if Air Force considers only undergraduate GPA or grad school GPA as well? I heard that the minimum for Air Force was a 3.2.
