Minneapolis VA Bylaws Change to Remove Anesthesiologists

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Last week the Minneapolis VA admin proposed a bylaws change to remove anesthesiologists from the OR and provide CRNA only care. Apparently it passed overwhelmingly today? Anyone have more details? Seems crazy to me that the medical staff would vote for that.

That’s ironic because I’ve heard there are VAs that are loosing lots of their CRNAs because of the big pay difference compared to non-VA & locums jobs.
 
Minnesota has always pay the highest VA doctor rates but it’s capped at 400k

Arnp at capped at 250k at the VA as well lol

Good luck trying to find “independent” crnas to join the Va capped at 250k. I love this stuff!

The “raised” act signed in 2022 for nurses and Pa at the federal level
 
CRNAs are defintely not capped at 250. With locality, OT, and all the rest, they have the same cap as any federal employee. I'm not surprised at all that the VA is doing this. at 400K, they can't compete for MDs. I see it at San Francisco, as well. In the old days, there were perks: you'd have an office, you could do research, you had non-clinical time, no one was looking that hard at what you were doing. You were paid less, but it wasn't THAT much less than the University people across town, and you worked less. That delta has gone way up, and the delta with PP has grown a ton. Meanwhile, you're now subject to the same productivity assessments as anywhere else (workload credit), the office is gone because they have to make room for all those payroll and HR employees being forced back to the office in the Return-To-Office mandates, and as people leave, the workload goes up without more pay, because, well, VA. The VA will have a very difficult time recruiting physicians moving forward, and yet, they have to get the cases done (the facility gets more federal money for doing more cases, so their incentive is still in the direction of more productivity, just like anywhere else).
 
CRNAs are defintely not capped at 250. With locality, OT, and all the rest, they have the same cap as any federal employee. I'm not surprised at all that the VA is doing this. at 400K, they can't compete for MDs. I see it at San Francisco, as well. In the old days, there were perks: you'd have an office, you could do research, you had non-clinical time, no one was looking that hard at what you were doing. You were paid less, but it wasn't THAT much less than the University people across town, and you worked less. That delta has gone way up, and the delta with PP has grown a ton. Meanwhile, you're now subject to the same productivity assessments as anywhere else (workload credit), the office is gone because they have to make room for all those payroll and HR employees being forced back to the office in the Return-To-Office mandates, and as people leave, the workload goes up without more pay, because, well, VA. The VA will have a very difficult time recruiting physicians moving forward, and yet, they have to get the cases done (the facility gets more federal money for doing more cases, so their incentive is still in the direction of more productivity, just like anywhere else).
What is the cap for crna than? The Raise act lifted the cap for nurses and pa.

300/350k w2 for crna 9 weeks off is basically the market rate for most private practice places these days for places that have a hard time recruiting

Can the Minnesota Va pay 300k for a 40 hr a week crna who will use all 13 sick days all the time?
 
CRNA and nurse pay at the VA is very good. I know some PACU nurses making into the 100s for taking care of 3-4 patients per day. I just queried 2 pacu nurses that I know personally and they make 129K and 117k respectively at VA Pacu. and I just queried 2 CRNAs that I know personally and they make 231 and 244 respectively for full time work. That aint chump change and very competitive with the private sector. The workload at VA is not hard. That entire bureaucracy is a cesspool of corruption and should be shut down.

The fact is that in the behemoth of bureaucracy that healthcare has become physicians have become villified by everyone who is not a physician and these people have risen to power in the bureaucracy. I am not bullish on the medical profession. Going forward the ride will be bumpy and uncertain.
 
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CRNA and nurse pay at the VA is very good. I know some PACU nurses making into the 100s for taking care of 3-4 patients per day. I just queried 2 pacu nurses that I know personally and they make 129K and 117k respectively at VA Pacu. and I just queried 2 CRNAs that I know personally and they make 231 and 244 respectively for full time work. That aint chump change and very competitive with the private sector. The workload at VA is not hard. That entire bureaucracy is a cesspool of corruption and should be shut down.
My friends at the Va always tell me VA is nurse driven.

The annual pay raises favor non doctors because it’s based on their “base” pay

Crna “base” pay is 200k
MD “base pay” is 100k
MD “locality pay” is 240k

So when Biden gave the Feds a 5-5.5% pay ease

Crna 5% pay raise x $200k base pay equals 10k pay raise

Doc 5% pay raise x 100k base pay equals $5000

That’s the stupid math the federal govt goes by.

A non MD will get hjgher pay increases due to their higher base pay.

Overtime unless the 400k pay cap is removed the crna will catch up to the doc

Now there are some ingenious career docs who start using leave without pay.

Say a doc is at 395k plus their performance bonus of 15k. Since they can’t make more than 400k. They will just take leave without pay to go under 380k plus still get their 15k performance bonus

It’s these stupid games people have to play at the govt level.
 
That’s gotta be a little painful, working full time at possibly less than half the hourly rate of the locums in the next room.
Depends how u game the VA system.

Every single child bearing female has gotten pregnant and used the 12 weeks paid (paternity/maternity) within 12 months of being hired at certain VAs. That’s close to 3 months paid time

The guys in the military reserve system know how to game it also and pick and choose when they will be deployed to their destination of choice.

3 months of paid work off for 350-375k plus another 9 weeks off (generous sick leave plus 26 paid days off)

So 12 weeks plus 9 weeks off
375k plus federal benefits (18k retirement match plus credits for pension) for 31 weeks worked. At 40 hrs a week supervising 1:1 (yes there are Va that cover 1:1. Mainly 1:2 coverage

Around a 450k package/31 weeks of work/40 hr equals $362/hr PLUS JOB STABILITY over locums.

That’s a pretty good deal for some.
 
Depends how u game the VA system.

Every single child bearing female has gotten pregnant and used the 12 weeks paid (paternity/maternity) within 12 months of being hired at certain VAs. That’s close to 3 months paid time

The guys in the military reserve system know how to game it also and pick and choose when they will be deployed to their destination of choice.

3 months of paid work off for 350-375k plus another 9 weeks off (generous sick leave plus 26 paid days off)

So 12 weeks plus 9 weeks off
375k plus federal benefits (18k retirement match plus credits for pension) for 31 weeks worked. At 40 hrs a week supervising 1:1 (yes there are Va that cover 1:1. Mainly 1:2 coverage

Around a 450k package/31 weeks of work/40 hr equals $362/hr PLUS JOB STABILITY over locums.

That’s a pretty good deal for some.
But you gotta do crazy somersaults to find something like you described
 
Depends how u game the VA system.

Every single child bearing female has gotten pregnant and used the 12 weeks paid (paternity/maternity) within 12 months of being hired at certain VAs. That’s close to 3 months paid time

The guys in the military reserve system know how to game it also and pick and choose when they will be deployed to their destination of choice.

3 months of paid work off for 350-375k plus another 9 weeks off (generous sick leave plus 26 paid days off)

So 12 weeks plus 9 weeks off
375k plus federal benefits (18k retirement match plus credits for pension) for 31 weeks worked. At 40 hrs a week supervising 1:1 (yes there are Va that cover 1:1. Mainly 1:2 coverage

Around a 450k package/31 weeks of work/40 hr equals $362/hr PLUS JOB STABILITY over locums.

That’s a pretty good deal for some.
Few factors. Deployment time you are working potentially in a austere environment. So the time spent deployed is not true time off work. In addition if your docs cover 1 call a month they also need to cover their reserve weekends that leaves you with only 2 free weekends a month factor out the two weeks of yearly drill time and your looking at a different side of the rainbow. Im saying this the government system never is a financial win over private practice in terms of pay and vacation. The supervision ratios are excellent and the contribution to pension and retirement are excellent and the patients are some of the most fortunate.
 
But you gotta do crazy somersaults to find something like you described
not really, i know a married couple both work for the VA have had multiple kids while employed, she gets 3 months every kid and then when she goes back he gets 3 months paternity!
 
All VA hospitals should be shut down and patients sent to the private sector for more efficient care and taxpayer savings.
u do realize the VA healthcare administration employs 400-500k federal employees. Good luck trying to shut it down.

Presidents and political parties lose elections trying to shut down even 5% of the defense sector jobs. Image trying to shut down 500k jobs.

Trump picks on dept of education and how many people get laid off? That’s a drop in the bucket compared to the VA healthcare system.
 
All VA hospitals should be shut down and patients sent to the private sector for more efficient care and taxpayer savings.
Facts, I really do not understand the role of the VA system when all you need to do is give the veterans tricare for life. Then those vets can see who they want at the hospital they want. The VA in my opinion was better at setting up social services not necessarily care.
 
The VA in my opinion was better at setting up social services not necessarily care.
Totally agree with this. In my opinion, the best parts of the healthcare delivery from the VA are the smaller things that bigger health systems will not / have no incentive to focus on. Need a reliable scale to measure daily weights to avoid admissions for CHF exacerbations - here’s a scale. Need a reliable way to get to your appointments - we’ve coordinated scheduled rides. Struggle to figure out which pills to take - a visiting RN will come by and ensure your pill box(es) are properly set up.

It is these things that the VA does best. Heck, for once I’m thinking that an army of case managers & social workers to make sure the non-gov’t healthcare sector is doing what the veterans need in order to reduce the inefficient specialist service lines of the VA might make sense. Keep primary care, PM&R, Psych, and maybe lumps & bumps clinics. Any other specialities that have an outsized role in veterans care compared to the general populace?
 
Facts, I really do not understand the role of the VA system when all you need to do is give the veterans tricare for life. Then those vets can see who they want at the hospital they want. The VA in my opinion was better at setting up social services not necessarily care.
I don’t understand the department of homeland security either. It’s grown into this albatross of govt waste. Everything in that dept could be done under the same dept of defense umbrella. But govt just likes to make up new roles and have duplication of services.

Sometimes the system becomes so big. It’s hard to downsize. There is such an economic eco system of jobs it’s hard to get rid of.

But explain to ur local constituents u will be getting rid of 400k federal govt and thousands of veterans are also employed at the Va system.

U will be voted out fast.
 
Honestly speaking demolish the older VA facilities and let a private entity like HCA buy the hospitals they have the most similar infrastructure.
 
Honestly speaking demolish the older VA facilities and let a private entity like HCA buy the hospitals they have the most similar infrastructure.
What will u do with all those dead weight federal employees

There are so many non clinical Va employees making 100-200k a year through pay raises over the years plus generous grandfathers federal benefits (pre 2013) 0.8% pension contribution vs 4.4% post tax contribution.

Those people will never leave until age 62 or age 60 (20 year rule)
 
u do realize the VA healthcare administration employs 400-500k federal employees. Good luck trying to shut it down.

Presidents and political parties lose elections trying to shut down even 5% of the defense sector jobs. Image trying to shut down 500k jobs.

Trump picks on dept of education and how many people get laid off? That’s a drop in the bucket compared to the VA healthcare system.
They can go find jobs in the private sector. Why are they entitled to oversized paychecks and generous benefits which don’t reflect their value to society and in this case…veterans?

I’d be happy to shut it down if I was ever elected president and use those resources to improve access to care for veterans. I’d throw in a cash subsidy for the veterans themselves rather than fund a lazy healthcare worker’s pension.
 
They can go find jobs in the private sector. Why are they entitled to oversized paychecks and generous benefits which don’t reflect their value to society and in this case…veterans?

I’d be happy to shut it down if I was ever elected president and use those resources to improve access to care for veterans. I’d throw in a cash subsidy for the veterans themselves rather than fund a lazy healthcare worker’s pension.
Have you paid attention to the news the first 3-4 months of Trump and Elon musk federal govt downsizing and all the news?

All those govt jobs musk managed to get rid of were mainly probation employees at will to get terminated

Good luck trying to get career federal govt employees work more than 2 years in the service off their probation fired. The lazy ones will not leave.
 
Whelp looks like they’re paving the way to get rid of some lazy anesthesiologists.
 
Whelp looks like they’re paving the way to get rid of some lazy anesthesiologists.
U do realize the crnas at the VA are lazy also.

U would need to hire even more crnas for coverage.

Cost savings is zero (again)

It’s the flagship USA VA hospital (I think) . They do everything there. I guess they can transfer any cases not appropriate to university of Minnesota medical center that no one feels comfortable with.
 
U do realize the crnas at the VA are lazy also.

U would need to hire even more crnas for coverage.

Cost savings is zero (again)

It’s the flagship USA VA hospital (I think) . They do everything there. I guess they can transfer any cases not appropriate to university of Minnesota medical center that no one feels comfortable with.


You’re one of the biggest critics of VA waste and a proponent of cutting the fat. Shipping complex cases out to U of Minn seems like a good way to cut duplicative services and trim the fat at the VA. Haven’t posters above been advocating closing VA hospitals everywhere? Have to start with something. Maybe this is a first step in cutting back services.
 
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You’re one of the biggest critics of VA waste and a proponent of cutting the fat. Shipping complex cases out to U of Minn seems like a good way to cut duplicative services and trim the fat at the VA. Haven’t posters above been advocating closing VA hospitals everywhere? Have to start with something. Maybe this is a first step in cutting back services.
There is a lot more waste in other department especially dept of defense and homeland security than the VA. Very few politicians are willing to touch those two departments these as well.

It’s mere political suicide to cut VA staffing especially when thousand of vets are also employed at the VA.

That’s why politicians pick and choose their battles.
 
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The VA is really good at some things that don't make money in the private sector. Like really good, integrated primary care (the efficacy of which is eroded somewhat by having veterans get some of their care in the outside world), mental health care, and integrated home care. Blue Cross will never run a shuttle system so patients can get to their appointments. The VA is also responsible for training millions of pharmacists, nurses, respiratory therapists, and physicians. And the VA overwhelming prefers to hire veterans who are maybe not as employable in the private sector, but who still can function in a setting that is less... competitive and demanding. I don't know, I'm probably biased, but the VA fills a huge role in a sector of society that has really complex needs.
 
My father is an inpatient currently at a VA hospital. I’ve been impressed by the care he’s received. He’s seen physicians. Both in the ED and on the floor. If he was in the hospital I work in he’d see a physician only if he were having surgery or a procedure. Otherwise it’s highly likely he’d see a PA/NP.

I was called by the hospitalist last night. Just calling to say hi and go over his plan of care. I was floored. They’re doing a laundry lists of tests and studies not necessarily because he needs it but because he’s there and it’s time. And they’d rather do it while he’s there than make him come back. I know what people will say about the last couple of sentences.

I think as a country we’ll be worse off if we lose VA care.
 
There is a lot more waste in other department especially dept of defense and homeland security than the VA.
I'm not sure about that one.

VA waste, fraud and abuse is legendary.
 
MN has had independent CRNA for quite some time but mostly in rural regions (level 3 trauma, no hearts/heads/etc, OB volume under 500/yr). Most anesthesiologists work in true medical direction where MD does all neuraxial, blocks, lines. This VA change would definitely be a change from status quo, especially in a major city.
 
I'm not sure about that one.

VA waste, fraud and abuse is legendary.
And you don’t think paying Linda dasche L3 lobbying company 300 million for body scanners isn’t waste? Especially when the first set of body scanners didn’t work version 1.0. And the govt keeps renewing the contract for hundreds of millions till the company finally gets the product correct.

She gets a 2-5 million dollar lobbying fee and l3 gets hundreds of millions

She’s the democratic senator wife. She milked that gig for 15 years before closing


“The TSA and L-3 Communications, the company that supplied more than 99 percent of the body scanners used at the agency’s airport checkpoints,”

And it’s way more than 160 million of waste.

“L3Harris Technologies has recently been awarded several significant government contracts. These include a $947.3 million contract for the AN/ALQ-172 Countermeasures Program, a contract to develop a next-generation security processor for secure communication devices, and a $300 million order for HMS radios. They also secured a $1.2 billion contract for P-8A Poseidon maintenance. ”

This is just a rounding error for govt waste with the dod and dept of homeland. Just one small example of waste

VA admin waste gets the press and newspaper stories but the dod an dhs wastes far more money
 
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And you don’t think paying Linda dasche L3 lobbying company 300 million for body scanners isn’t waste? Especially when the first set of body scanners didn’t work version 1.0. And the govt keeps renewing the contract for hundreds of millions till the company finally gets the product correct.

She gets a 2-5 million dollar lobbying fee and l3 gets hundreds of millions

She’s the democratic senator wife. She milked that gig for 15 years before closing


“The TSA and L-3 Communications, the company that supplied more than 99 percent of the body scanners used at the agency’s airport checkpoints,”

And it’s way more than 160 million of waste.

“L3Harris Technologies has recently been awarded several significant government contracts. These include a $947.3 million contract for the AN/ALQ-172 Countermeasures Program, a contract to develop a next-generation security processor for secure communication devices, and a $300 million order for HMS radios. They also secured a $1.2 billion contract for P-8A Poseidon maintenance. ”

This is just a rounding error for govt waste with the dod and dept of homeland. Just one small example of waste

VA admin waste gets the press and newspaper stories but the dod an dhs wastes far more money
They aint got nothin' on VA fraud, waste and abuse
 
They aint got nothin' on VA fraud, waste and abuse
You are looking at VA fraud under myopic eyes.

The defense and dhs budgets are astronomical compared to the veterans admin budget.

A 2% fraud rate at defense and dhs means it’s 20x the waste as a 10% Va administration waste due to the sheer budget size.
 
I would submit to you that the waste, fraud and abuse at VA is a lot larger than 10 %. I would say it's closer to 25-35 percent of all dollars spent on VA is towards fraud or waste or both. And I am giving you a low estimate. VA has a budget of over 300 Billion and takes care of 9 Million vets. i agree the DEfense department has a much larger budget, I do not know anything about the fraud there. 2 percent seems low though. DHS budget is only 66 Billion.
 
I would submit to you that the waste, fraud and abuse at VA is a lot larger than 10 %. I would say it's closer to 25-35 percent of all dollars spent on VA is towards fraud or waste or both. And I am giving you a low estimate. VA has a budget of over 300 Billion and takes care of 9 Million vets. i agree the DEfense department has a much larger budget, I do not know anything about the fraud there. 2 percent seems low though. DHS budget is only 66 Billion.
Everything is vodoo math when it comes to govt budget anyways there is the mythical “discretionary budget” and there is the “mandatory budget”

If there is 30% waste in the VA system. It’s clearly under reported like any govt magic numbers

“va-employee-took-recovering-vet-crack-house/14190573/. $6 to $10 Billion spent illegally each year for many years. An example of waste is the annual $6B – $10 ..”


 
I would submit to you that the waste, fraud and abuse at VA is a lot larger than 10 %. I would say it's closer to 25-35 percent of all dollars spent on VA is towards fraud or waste or both. And I am giving you a low estimate. VA has a budget of over 300 Billion and takes care of 9 Million vets. i agree the DEfense department has a much larger budget, I do not know anything about the fraud there. 2 percent seems low though. DHS budget is only 66 Billion.
I’m seeing 435B+ online. If true that seems extremely questionable for 9 million patients. That’s over double the annual cost for private insurance + hitting the out of pocket maximum. Even if they do fantastic care (and honestly I have seen some EGREGIOUS things go down with 0 repercussion) that’s an insane amount of money. Full stop. 48k per vet. A long time ago it became a jobs program, where clinical work took a back seat to actual care. The above decision is yet another confirmation that quality of care is a secondary concern for the VA.
 
I’m seeing 435B+ online. If true that seems extremely questionable for 9 million patients. That’s over double the annual cost for private insurance + hitting the out of pocket maximum. Even if they do fantastic care (and honestly I have seen some EGREGIOUS things go down with 0 repercussion) that’s an insane amount of money. Full stop. 48k per vet. A long time ago it became a jobs program, where clinical work took a back seat to actual care. The above decision is yet another confirmation that quality of care is a secondary concern for the VA.
Vets who use their VA benefits are much much sicker (physically and mentally) than the private insurance population because it selects for people who are socioeconomically disadvantaged which, in the context of prior military service, is usually accompanied by significant mental health and/or substance abuse issues.

Private insurance also doesn't have to own and operate their own hospitals, fund hospice for 2 years, house medically/mentally ill patients both short and long term who have no family who are willing to take care of them etc etc.

Preposterous to make the comparison to the general population. Maybe if you compared it to inner city hospitals with 0 private insurance all indigenous patients with high substance abuse rates we might start getting close except they still aren't responsible for the extensive mental and social programs the VA supports.
 
Vets who use their VA benefits are much much sicker (physically and mentally) than the private insurance population because it selects for people who are socioeconomically disadvantaged which, in the context of prior military service, is usually accompanied by significant mental health and/or substance abuse issues.

Private insurance also doesn't have to own and operate their own hospitals, fund hospice for 2 years, house medically/mentally ill patients both short and long term who have no family who are willing to take care of them etc etc.

Preposterous to make the comparison to the general population. Maybe if you compared it to inner city hospitals with 0 private insurance all indigenous patients with high substance abuse rates we might start getting close except they still aren't responsible for the extensive mental and social programs the VA supports.
I just thought it was genuinely insane how much we spent. Then I looked into it further, and turns out actual medical care is only 116B of that, with the vast majority being pensions. So only about 12k per vet for medical care. Very different story and pretty reasonable, although I’m sure some veterans receive care at regular hospitals too so would be interesting to see the breakdown.

Either way 12k is a vastly different story than 48k.
 
I just thought it was genuinely insane how much we spent. Then I looked into it further, and turns out actual medical care is only 116B of that, with the vast majority being pensions. So only about 12k per vet for medical care. Very different story and pretty reasonable, although I’m sure some veterans receive care at regular hospitals too so would be interesting to see the breakdown.

Either way 12k is a vastly different story than 48k.
Exactly. The Dept of VA also funds educational benefits, manages the national cemeteries, funds veteran burials, veterans home loans, etc. And for family of deceased vets, there may be survivor benefits they cover. It ain’t just healthcare.
 
I just thought it was genuinely insane how much we spent. Then I looked into it further, and turns out actual medical care is only 116B of that, with the vast majority being pensions. So only about 12k per vet for medical care. Very different story and pretty reasonable, although I’m sure some veterans receive care at regular hospitals too so would be interesting to see the breakdown.

Either way 12k is a vastly different story than 48k.
VA is a cesspool of corruption. Do any mental gymnastics that you want, that fact still remains. Ask me how I know!
 
I loved rotating at the VA as a resident - the patients are outright amazing.

The fraud and waste I saw there was shocking though. While there were plenty of good doctors and nurses there, a ton were lazy dinosaurs - many of whom did truly nothing beyond clocking in and clocking out. It’s clear they have flawed oversight at best.
 
I loved rotating at the VA as a resident - the patients are outright amazing.

The fraud and waste I saw there was shocking though. While there were plenty of good doctors and nurses there, a ton were lazy dinosaurs - many of whom did truly nothing beyond clocking in and clocking out. It’s clear they have flawed oversight at best.
Is it fraud? Or just lazy employees?

I think people misconstrue waste/fraud with inefficiency.

That’s why I say govt waste is much higher at dod and dhs especially through contractors work. More than Va waste/fraud.

How much does the Va outsource work that can be considered fraud /waste?

Anesthesiologists supervising crna 1:1 at some VA is not “fraud” or even waste in my opinion. Becuase it’s totally “legal”. To the aana it’s “waste”. Yet there are some VA the crna sleeps at night 95% of the time “solo” for “airway” coverage. The aana would say it’s “legal”. Yet my asa friends say it’s “waste” because why are we paying a crna to do no cases and respiratory or ED doc should be immediately available for airway coverage. My md friends at the VA want the overnight airway coverage for themselves so they get more time off to work elsewhere in the am.

That’s why I play the crnas vs the md.
 
Is it fraud? Or just lazy employees?
Try having 10 full time PACU nurses show up for work for only 6 patients on the OR schedule. And I'm scratching the surface on those kinda examples.
 
VA is a cesspool of corruption. Do any mental gymnastics that you want, that fact still remains. Ask me how I know!
Isn’t it also not uncommon VA patients exaggerate or fabricate disabilities, and/or falsely attribute these conditions/disabilities to service for monetary compensation?
 
I did a few VA months as a resident. One day we had 2 THAs scheduled my room. The first case took over 4 hours and we didn’t leave the room until noon. Because the 2nd case wouldn’t start until at least 13:00 due to the 1hr+ VA turnover and “there is no overtime at the VA”, the 2nd case was cancelled. Everyone just sat around until 3pm when their shift ended and then went home. At that time if an elective case wasn’t on track to finish by 3pm it wouldn’t get started.
 
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Isn’t it also not uncommon VA patients exaggerate or fabricate disabilities, and/or falsely attribute these conditions/disabilities to service for monetary compensation?
I’m not saying that, I’m just saying that there may or may not be the most massive epidemic of Tinnitus in the history of mankind currently afflicting the US Military
 
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