Moffitt/USF - discuss their inviting via ERAS but offering outside of NRMP.

[bananaphone]

I think the Moffitt/USF situation deserves a thread of its own.

Sounds like they will be sending out offers outside of the match in early/mid-January. Acceptance of their offer would mean withdrawal from the normal NRMP.

Is anyone else a little uncomfortable with that?

How does the use of such recruiting tactics reflect on other aspects of the program?

To help put things into perspective, does anybody have any comments or opinions regarding the radonc program at Moffitt/USF?

What do your PDs think? Thank you.

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[stephew]

Programs usually have their own reasons for doing this. Its not generally "tactics" in any nefarious sence. Residents, particularly in the current atmosphere, are really very concerned with optimizing their match chances. This is wholly reasonable. But programs have their own interests. And it doesnt follow that the decision is based on trying to recuit in some new nefarious way. I've seen programs do this for other pragmatic reasons. It may or may not be in the best interest of the applicants as a group, but remember, departments have wider concerns than just how applicants perceive or feel about a twist in the application process. And as tempting as it may be you cannot in any way assess what this says about "other aspects of the program" as you simply don't have enough information. This wont stop people from trying of course. It will just be empty speculation. I know its cold comfort for applicants, but be wary about jumping to any incorrect conclusions based on just the above.

 

[deleted4401]

From what I understand, if one department uses the match at an institution, then all the other departments have to use the match (within a certain time frame). Eventually, USF will have to comply.

Honestly, though, most interviews are done (save for a few) by that time, and if you are lucky enough to be offered a spot at a nice cancer center in Tampa, FL ... can't complain too much about that. I don't know ... it's not that bad and I hardly think it reflects poorly on the program. Maybe some paperwork wasn't filled out or something.

-S

 

[qwert]

From my limited experience (I applied 2 years ago) a lot of wheeling and dealing goes on in programs that are officially participate in NRMP, and in reality, there are a lot of places that know who their future residents are months prior to the Match. It is pretty sad. So USF is just taking this process out of the shadows.

I think the Moffitt/USF situation deserves a thread of its own.

Sounds like they will be sending out offers outside of the match in early/mid-January. Acceptance of their offer would mean withdrawal from the normal NRMP.

Is anyone else a little uncomfortable with that?

How does the use of such recruiting tactics reflect on other aspects of the program?

To help put things into perspective, does anybody have any comments or opinions regarding the radonc program at Moffitt/USF?

What do your PDs think? Thank you.

 

[stephew]

i am no expert in these rules but i know that an institution can take people out of the match occasionally. IMGs often are and Hopkins did with a US student recently (a few yrs ago).

 

[Cancerdancer]

Programs usually have their own reasons for doing this. Its not generally "tactics" in any nefarious sence. Residents, particularly in the current atmosphere, are really very concerned with optimizing their match chances. This is wholly reasonable. But programs have their own interests. And it doesnt follow that the decision is based on trying to recuit in some new nefarious way. I've seen programs do this for other pragmatic reasons.

Can't believe you're being so nice to them. This reeks of a program playing on the fears of people to get better residents than the quality of their program would otherwise dictate. Again, the whole point of the match is to put everyone on a level playing field. Moffitt will basically saying be saying to applicants "You know you probably deserve better than this program, but there is a slight chance you might not match. Wanna risk it?" This allows them to be the only program in the country to essentially mandate that an applicant rank them #1. TOTAL BS. It's not like they wouldn't fill thru the match.

 

[radoncbound]

I heard a guy I know was offered a 2009 position at Moffitt today. I wonder if they will let him at least finish his interviews before making a final decision. Then again, what is the point if you have to withdraw before the match withdrawal deadline anyway (in other words if you can't rank your list what's the point of interviewing?).

This field is crazy. Very, very few other applicants would tolerate this crap

 

[deleted4401]

I still don't get the sense of entitlement of 'having to deal with this crap'. after all the crap i've tolerated before residency, during residency, and more importantly, all the crap that i will deal with after residency, this crap you speak of is not the least tastiest. you'll get a postition, become a radonc, marry some hot male nurse, make a lot of money in a community practice, and be lost in obscurity. life will be good. you will own an espresso machine.

it's a new program, it takes a while to get stuff together. if one PD or her assistant or whoever made one paperwork mistake, it could screw things up. and it's not that big a deal. take a deep breath. it will all work out. dr. simul promises that this crap will be far less repulsive than the crap that awaits you.

s

 

[stephew]

Think of it this way; the person offered the spot has a bird in the hand. They dont have to take it. They are capable off assessing if they wish to shoot higher in the match. I know many candidates who would love this "crap"- a guaranteed spot in a highly competitive field. Thousands of IMG's consider this situation each year. They can be offered to prematch in which case they need to withdraw from the match. So many many applicants not only tolerate but in fact seek a pre-match offer out in other fields.

 

[Cancerdancer]

Think of it this way; the person offered the spot has a bird in the hand. They dont have to take it. They are capable off assessing if they wish to shoot higher in the match.

One must wonder how Harvard would like it if all of their home-grown MD/Ph.D's who they interview on their first interview day all banded together and said "You can have us, but you must offer us a spot now, and take us all. If you choose to see the rest of the applicants you've scheduled, we'll all look elsewhere." In theory, the program would be "capable of assessing if they wish to shoot higher in the match", so Harvard would have no problem with kind of behavior?

Don't mean to be inflammatory, just playing devil's advocate. I would hope you can see the match is supposed to prevent exactly this kind of behavior, and for one program to recruit applicants through ERAS with the presumption that they will be playing by the rules, and then changing the rules mid-game, well... If a program wants strong residents, recruit strong faculty, build up opportunities, etc. -- don't play on the fear of applicants.

 

[stephew]

I think you need to add in the "take us all" comment to create a senario that might make your "what if" an unpalatable situation to harvard. Otherwise if it were a true reverse senario (one individual at a time making offering themselves to harvard,) I think you picked a poor example to make your point. Harvard probably not have their ultimate residency list change all that much.

I made the point earlier that there can be reasons that you aren't privy to when programs make decisions like these. That the interests of applicants can be subjugated. I was told I was "being too nice" to them. I was offering a perspective. Let me turn this situation on its head to illustrate.

How many times here have applicants told each other on the forum to tell programs (and ive seen harvard mentioned in this context) that they like research and want to be an academic so they are more likely to appeal to the program. The institution has a particular vision: they have a huge research program, offer residents protected research time, experience in a lab, many patients on protocol...essentially they train you for academics. Shouldn't the candidate interested ultimately in private practice not attempt to match there? Try to get training at the expense of the program and its resources that can better be used on other applicants interested in research?

About now you're probably hot under the collar. Understandably. This is your career and you've worked hard and are now being subjected to this tenuous process of getting into a program. and now someone is suggesting you put this aside in the interest of the program. That's ridiculous. Programs see it the same way. They may be resident friendly and supply great training, but if they feel its better for them in the big picture, they will do what is best for their program. I merely suggested earlier that sometimes there is no nefarious plan going on but rather something pragmatic to the program that you aren't privy to. That's all. And it may indeed work in favor of a few resident applicants. This stratagem adds stress on many applicants. It raises suspicions of a program. But these things are complex, that is merely the issue I hope to illustrate.

I certainly dont mind your playing devil's advocate, or indeed disagreeing with or enlightening me to a point I may have missed. In turn I would hope you can see that while this offer of Moffitt might not be popular, it could serve some applicants.


The

One must wonder how Harvard would like it if all of their home-grown MD/Ph.D's who they interview on their first interview day all banded together and said "You can have us, but you must offer us a spot now, and take us all. If you choose to see the rest of the applicants you've scheduled, we'll all look elsewhere." In theory, the program would be "capable of assessing if they wish to shoot higher in the match", so Harvard would have no problem with kind of behavior?

Don't mean to be inflammatory, just playing devil's advocate. I would hope you can see the match is supposed to prevent exactly this kind of behavior, and for one program to recruit applicants through ERAS with the presumption that they will be playing by the rules, and then changing the rules mid-game, well... If a program wants strong residents, recruit strong faculty, build up opportunities, etc. -- don't play on the fear of applicants.

 

[devildoc2]

Am I missing something here? I thought it was illegal for any AMG to take a spot outside hte match? my understanding is that the only people who can take outside spots are DOs or FMGs.

 

[deleted4401]

How about this scenario ... take the offer, but stay in the match. Only rank programs that you'd go to rather than Tampa. Wait until March and see what happens. If you end up at Harvard, bail on Tampa ... It isn't that hard to get out of a contract. I asked to be released from my matched program and they delivered on it in 72 hours.

I don't think they are setting themselves up to get the best candidate. The only way to optimize the results is to do the match correctly (the candidates rank honestly, and the program rank honestly). Then the candidates and the programs most likely to get the best possible outcome. They are screwing themselves, too.

I'm not sure too many people that are currently in training will admit it on a public forum, but I know more than just one or two people were given 'handshake' commitments at their home institutions, even though they were interviewing other candidates. I agree that USF is not playing fair, but I also think that more programs do it in a way that isn't as transparent. And that's just as bad, maybe worse.

-S

 

[stephew]

that would be illegal and while one often can get out of a contract, doing it this way would very likely be the sort of thing to get a suit brought against you. It shows that you knew right up front that you wanted the other program if you could get it and went into the contract with the intent to defraud.

As for "handshake committments", dont count on them either. its another topic but the world is rife with people told they would be "ranked highly" or somesuch and who did not match. its worth the paper its written on.

Finally, I do not know the nuiances but there ARE instances when folks - even US grads, can go outside the match. But i dont know how to works.

How about this scenario ... take the offer, but stay in the match. Only rank programs that you'd go to rather than Tampa. Wait until March and see what happens. If you end up at Harvard, bail on Tampa ... It isn't that hard to get out of a contract. I asked to be released from my matched program and they delivered on it in 72 hours.

I don't think they are setting themselves up to get the best candidate. The only way to optimize the results is to do the match correctly (the candidates rank honestly, and the program rank honestly). Then the candidates and the programs most likely to get the best possible outcome. They are screwing themselves, too.

I'm not sure too many people that are currently in training will admit it on a public forum, but I know more than just one or two people were given 'handshake' commitments at their home institutions, even though they were interviewing other candidates. I agree that USF is not playing fair, but I also think that more programs do it in a way that isn't as transparent. And that's just as bad, maybe worse.

-S

 

[Mulletfluf]

I think hedging your bet by taking the offer and staying in the match is a bad idea. After all this is a relatively small field and word travels.

I am not surprised that this sort of thing goes on. Everyone, candidates and programs, want what is best for them.

 

[deleted4401]

Yeah ... wasn't seriously recommending it. Don't do it ... I was trying to make a point, and I don't think it came out right. Seriously, try to behave as honestly as possible. It doesn't matter what the programs do, it's in your best interest to stay completely honest.

I was just showing how on both ends, people aren't really that evil. Not very many of us would act in such a devious way and I don't think the program is as cunning as people make it out to be. I understand if people think I'm naive to trust in the system (probably am), but I do.
-S

 

[Wm Tell]

Here is my interpretation of the official Match rules (which I found at the NRMP's official website: http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/policies/map_institution.html)

It is completely legal for a program to withdraw from the match anytime before January 31st, 2008 (see section 4.1.1). It is even legal for them to do this if they used the ERAS application service to gather applications, and if they have interviewed candidates. However, if a program intends to withdraw and offer spots outside of the match, they must withdraw ALL of their spots (see section 4.2 - this means they can't fill half with outside offers and the other half with the match.) This is not going to happen in, say, internal medicine, where they need to fill 50 spots, but is feasible in radiaiton oncology.

I might add that there is also a "shady" way for a program to fill spots outside of the match. They could go through with the match, but only list "dummy" applicants who, for example, are applying for a different speciality. Then, they will not match anyone, and after match day, they will be free to take someone outside of the match. I have heard this thrown around, but never have heard any claims (substantiated or otherwise) that this has been done.

To address devildoc2's question, from our side, there is no obligation for US seniors (MDs or DOs) or anyone from participating in the match. However, if an applicant has applied for the match and wishes to withdraw, they have to do so by Feburary 27th (the rank order list deadline, see section 5.1).

Finally, the not-recommended plan of accepting an outside offer and staying in the match (sorry for bringing this up again, Simul), is expressly forbidden in section 5.5.1.

 

[radoncbound]

That dude turned down the offer . . . somebody is going to be very happy (and/or have to make a very tough decision) very soon.

 

[stephew]

thanks for the update.

 

[bananaphone]

do the 2 lucky people who accept the Moffitt offer for the 2009 PGY-2 positions also invalidate their NRMP eligibility for prelim/TY programs?

in other words, would they have to scramble for a PGY-1 prelim spot despite having already interviewed at several prelim programs?

 

[mikedc813]

do the 2 lucky people who accept the Moffitt offer for the 2009 PGY-2 positions also invalidate their NRMP eligibility for prelim/TY programs?

in other words, would they have to scramble for a PGY-1 prelim spot despite having already interviewed at several prelim programs?

From what I understand after interviewing there, no. You have the option of staying for a guaranteed prelim medicine year at USF if you wanted, so it is sort of categorical, but you are not have to do so. I'm not sure of the details of how matching to a prelim outside of USF works though...

 

[mikedc813]

Both 2009 positions have now been filled.

 

[bearchop]

I am a 3rd yr interested in rad onc and am specific intrigued by the Moffitt program. I see that the program is brand new and am wondering what those who interviewed thought. I am particularly wondering how research-oriented the program will be. I would think with Moffitt being such a strong cancer facility the rad onc department would be strong as well. Thanks for any thoughts.