pgg

Laugh at me, will they?
Administrator
10+ Year Member
Dec 15, 2005
12,226
8,365
Not home
Status
Attending Physician

Lurch

10+ Year Member
Sep 13, 2009
122
63
Status
Attending Physician
Just got the email. Lots of options for part 4, but I can't say I'm looking forward to doing any of them.

http://www.theaba.org/PDFs/MOCA/MOCA-2-0-Part-4-Requirements

Maybe I'll do the sim thing after all, before Dec 31 2015, just to knock out my remaining 25 "points" in one go.
I was a little confused when looking up sim sessions. Do you think one full day course with follow-up session is worth the full 25? The 3 points/hr seems like an odd way to break it down.

I agree that this seems like the most painless way. One day and get it over with for 5 yrs.
 

seinfeld

ASA Member
10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Apr 12, 2007
596
171
Status
Attending Physician
I was glad to see that i could get credit for all the in-house performance and quality initiatives. Gives me more reason to continue attending all those meetings
 

okayplayer

Senior Member
Lifetime Donor
10+ Year Member
May 15, 2005
1,122
587
Status
Attending Physician
Just got the email. Lots of options for part 4, but I can't say I'm looking forward to doing any of them.

http://www.theaba.org/PDFs/MOCA/MOCA-2-0-Part-4-Requirements

Maybe I'll do the sim thing after all, before Dec 31 2015, just to knock out my remaining 25 "points" in one go.
How is this any better than it was before they changed it (other than Moca minute instead of recert exam)?

So I would have to give 25 1 hour m&m presentations in 5 years to cover this requirement?!
 

DreamLover

Bored Certified
10+ Year Member
Feb 9, 2006
557
49
727 5TH Ave, New York, NY
Status
Attending Physician
So I would have to give 25 1 hour m&m presentations in 5 years to cover this requirement?!
Except they'll only allow 15 hours of M&M. I feel like they created more "options" but by each of these things only being worth 1 hour each...it's extremely tedious to try and accumulate 25 credit hours thus essentially making the simulation the easiest (most straight forward) way to get those 25 hours over with and accounted for.

It's kind of like the ABAs way of taking their passive-aggressive stance that the simulation is best and worth all that $$$.

I do like the idea of MOCA Minute Vs a recert exam though.
 
OP
pgg

pgg

Laugh at me, will they?
Administrator
10+ Year Member
Dec 15, 2005
12,226
8,365
Not home
Status
Attending Physician
How is this any better than it was before they changed it (other than Moca minute instead of recert exam)?

So I would have to give 25 1 hour m&m presentations in 5 years to cover this requirement?!
Anyone who has to give 25 M&M presentations probably should be specifically excluded from continued certification. :)
 

pjl

ASA Member
10+ Year Member
Oct 29, 2006
917
507
Status
Attending Physician
I agree with the quality thing, those meetings are 1-2 hours and will knock out 30 of the hours over 10 years easily for something I was already going to do. The rest of the practice improvement stuff is pretty easy too for the remaining 20 hours. For someone like me, I now just have to go to the trouble of writing down attendance and can be done with this requirement, which I feel is more along thee lines of what it is trying to gain.
If I was not on these committees simulation would be the way to go.
 

sleepallday

ASA Member
7+ Year Member
May 21, 2010
394
212
Status
Attending Physician
I have to agree with some of the others. The fact that QI meetings fulfill the requirements has made it pretty simple.
 
OP
pgg

pgg

Laugh at me, will they?
Administrator
10+ Year Member
Dec 15, 2005
12,226
8,365
Not home
Status
Attending Physician
Clinical pathway development leader / participant looks like a reasonable source of points too.

For those of us in academics, I wonder if we can shoehorn any of the formal teaching we do (lectures, grand rounds, etc) into one of those categories.

What's a "multi-specialty portfolio program"?
 

Hawaiian Bruin

Breaking Good
15+ Year Member
Mar 13, 2003
2,155
1,087
Visit site
Status
Attending Physician
I think this is all still bulls#it without any evidence.

It's substantially less bulls#it than before, but it's still bulls#it.

I think it does represent a good-faith effort by the ABA to make the program better, while hewing to the guidelines mandated by the ABMS.

If we want more change than this, it has to be at the ABMS level now. Hopefully the lawsuits going on against ABMS go somewhere.
 
  • Like
Reactions: okayplayer

pjl

ASA Member
10+ Year Member
Oct 29, 2006
917
507
Status
Attending Physician
Maybe I misread, but I hope not.
What I see is departmental Qi project leader time being counted, which I do a ton of.
 

Noyac

10+ Year Member
Jun 20, 2005
7,934
2,607
Status
Attending Physician
Clinical pathway development leader / participant looks like a reasonable source of points too.

For those of us in academics, I wonder if we can shoehorn any of the formal teaching we do (lectures, grand rounds, etc) into one of those categories.

What's a "multi-specialty portfolio program"?
I was wondering if I could get credit for the teaching I do on SDN? ;)
 

caligas

ASA Member
7+ Year Member
Aug 17, 2012
1,396
1,259
Status
Anyone who has to give 25 M&M presentations probably should be specifically excluded from continued certification. :)
Funny. But it doesnt have to be a "bad" case, just a case presentation. Could be a tough case that you handled well.
 
OP
pgg

pgg

Laugh at me, will they?
Administrator
10+ Year Member
Dec 15, 2005
12,226
8,365
Not home
Status
Attending Physician
I was wondering if I could get credit for the teaching I do on SDN? ;)
I would say yes, as long as you're posting about a case you've done:

"Self-directed case evaluation, M&M or case discussion (if presenting your case)."

Nothing in there limiting that to face-to-face discussion.
 

okayplayer

Senior Member
Lifetime Donor
10+ Year Member
May 15, 2005
1,122
587
Status
Attending Physician
It doesn't seem like simply attending is enough. Probably have to lead the meetings.
That's what I thought.

F it. I'm doing the sim. I wish I could do a 2 day sim course at 4 yrs 364 days and 5 years exactly and that way I could meet the entire 10 year Part 4 requirement in one weekend.
 

IlDestriero

Ether Man
10+ Year Member
Nov 24, 2007
7,606
7,137
The ivory tower.
Status
Attending Physician
I did the sim, it was fine. Low stress, non judgmental, maybe even useful in the sense that you get to practice potentially challenging rare but realistic scenarios, and you maybe get to see how not to best do a few things. That's also useful. We run a full simulation day (lectures, cases, difficult airway, US lines, etc) for our fellows and it is definitely of value to all involved.
 

aneftp

7+ Year Member
Mar 23, 2010
1,878
743
Status
Attending Physician
If u are in academics sim is great. Its usually paid For by dept and u use ur paid cme days off.

If u are in private practice sim may not be good. Ha
 

IlDestriero

Ether Man
10+ Year Member
Nov 24, 2007
7,606
7,137
The ivory tower.
Status
Attending Physician
If u are in academics sim is great. Its usually paid For by dept and u use ur paid cme days off.

If u are in private practice sim may not be good. Ha
If you're in private practice, sim should be easy because you can use one of your excessive vacation days to go, and pay for it with money you should be putting aside for professional expenses.
You're saying the PP guys taking 8-12 weeks vacation and making 500+ are at a disadvantage?
Ha!
 
OP
pgg

pgg

Laugh at me, will they?
Administrator
10+ Year Member
Dec 15, 2005
12,226
8,365
Not home
Status
Attending Physician
If you're in private practice, sim should be easy because you can use one of your excessive vacation days to go, and pay for it with money you should be putting aside for professional expenses.
You're saying the PP guys taking 8-12 weeks vacation and making 500+ are at a disadvantage?
Ha!
Oh no you di'n't!
 

norwood

ASA Member
10+ Year Member
Dec 3, 2007
343
97
Status
Attending Physician
Maybe I'll do the sim thing after all, before Dec 31 2015, just to knock out my remaining 25 "points" in one go.
I'm sure that's the idea. I had previously felt good about this MOCA 2.0 idea, but as far as the sim is concerned, saying "or you could jump through an endless series of hoops" sounds mainly like an attempt to make the sim look like something people "chose." I use quotes because it's not much of a choice when all of the other possibilities are painful to put together.

Honestly I wouldn't care except that it's so plainly a fundraiser for the sim centers. $1500 for 8 hours with the manikin? Gimme a break. Wish ABA would make it realistically possible for people to open their own sim centers - as it is, the process of applying is plainly designed to make it so that only the big academic programs will offer sims.
 

aneftp

7+ Year Member
Mar 23, 2010
1,878
743
Status
Attending Physician
If you're in private practice, sim should be easy because you can use one of your excessive vacation days to go, and pay for it with money you should be putting aside for professional expenses.
You're saying the PP guys taking 8-12 weeks vacation and making 500+ are at a disadvantage?
Ha!
Consider 20-40% these days work for amc or hospital and some require to take full week vacation rather than 1-2 days.

If many have 5-6 weeks vacation under this arrangement working for amc. Many in "private practice"are at disadvantage taking 1 day off for sim course maybe even 2 days if u count travel. Most are making 300-350k by the way.

And many aren't making 500k plus and taking 10-12 weeks off these days.
 

Stillwater45

Member
15+ Year Member
Mar 29, 2004
127
12
37
Visit site
Status
Does this mean we can do more than 60 CME credits a year? I was thinking about doing the Basic TEE module but it is 100 CME credits. Maybe I could log 60 one year and 40 the next?
 

Hawaiian Bruin

Breaking Good
15+ Year Member
Mar 13, 2003
2,155
1,087
Visit site
Status
Attending Physician
Does anyone honestly think any of this nonsense makes them a better doctor? That it makes any difference to patient care?

Why should we jump through these hoops? Granted, there are less hoops now than there used to be, so yay for that. But this is still total nonsense.
 

norwood

ASA Member
10+ Year Member
Dec 3, 2007
343
97
Status
Attending Physician
Does anyone honestly think any of this nonsense makes them a better doctor? That it makes any difference to patient care?

Why should we jump through these hoops? Granted, there are less hoops now than there used to be, so yay for that. But this is still total nonsense.
As few patients as I've had ask if I'm board certified, at least I've had a few. And, in fairness to the process, when I was a young attending, mentioning that I was board certified seemed reassuring to patients who worried that I looked young.

But I have never - literally, not a single time - had a patient ask anything at all about recertification, MOC, etc. You'd think that if the public were so worried about this, as ABMS is always saying, I'd get some sort of question about it now and then.
 

criticalelement

Membership Revoked
Removed
Account on Hold
Aug 24, 2014
766
878
Status
Attending Physician
the aba is out of touch useless organization that has no place anymore. The ASA is also useless. Un support these organizations. They are no longer looking out for the best interest if their constituents, Anesthesiologists. Moreover stop supporting MOCA>
 

IlDestriero

Ether Man
10+ Year Member
Nov 24, 2007
7,606
7,137
The ivory tower.
Status
Attending Physician
Consider 20-40% these days work for amc or hospital and some require to take full week vacation rather than 1-2 days.

If many have 5-6 weeks vacation under this arrangement working for amc. Many in "private practice"are at disadvantage taking 1 day off for sim course maybe even 2 days if u count travel. Most are making 300-350k by the way.

And many aren't making 500k plus and taking 10-12 weeks off these days.
You and I both said private practice, not the exploited employed. I know a lot of PP folks all over the country, almost all of my old resident friends and the many of fellows I mentored are in PP. I also looked at PP jobs as recently as 2 years ago when I considered a change, which seems to happen q2 years. None of the places I looked at had partners taking less than 8 weeks vaca and nobody was making less than ~500 (if you include the retirement plan). Though most were working pretty hard for the money and hustling 3-4 rooms with frequent call.
If some of you are settling for 300-350 with low vaca and bad benefits, go shop around for a good academic job. They're making at least that much, working less, and have a better benefit package. Including a professional expense account to pay for things like the sim.
 

cincincyreds

5+ Year Member
May 9, 2010
519
46
Status
Attending Physician
This is a question about minimizing aggravation with this new MOCA 2.0.

Is it possible to just do the simulator every five years? I just don't understand the practice improvement thing.
 
OP
pgg

pgg

Laugh at me, will they?
Administrator
10+ Year Member
Dec 15, 2005
12,226
8,365
Not home
Status
Attending Physician
This is a question about minimizing aggravation with this new MOCA 2.0.

Is it possible to just do the simulator every five years? I just don't understand the practice improvement thing.
Looks like it. 3 points per hour = spend an 8 hour day there, done with the part 4 requirement for 5 years.
 

sevoflurane

Ride
15+ Year Member
Jul 16, 2003
4,968
1,789
Visit site
Status
Attending Physician
Does obtaining TEE certification via PP count?

If not,

It should.

It was not cheap, cost a boat load of $$$ and certainly met the practice improvement aspect of my physician experience.

Wayyyyy better than a sim lab.

NO QUESTION!
 
Last edited:

aneftp

7+ Year Member
Mar 23, 2010
1,878
743
Status
Attending Physician
Does obtaining TEE certification via PP count?

If not,

It should.

It was not cheap, cost a boat load of $$$ and certainly met the practice improvement aspect of my physician experience.

Wayyyyy better than a sim lab.

NO QUESTION!
It says other ABMS certification on the moca 2.0 for 25 credits. So I am sure it counts.
 

sevoflurane

Ride
15+ Year Member
Jul 16, 2003
4,968
1,789
Visit site
Status
Attending Physician
I'm just not sure the NBE is part of ABMS. Initially, that board was formed outside of the ABMS and I believe it is still a non-ABMS board.
 

Mman

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
Mar 22, 2005
4,944
2,715
Status
Attending Physician
But I have never - literally, not a single time - had a patient ask anything at all about recertification, MOC, etc. You'd think that if the public were so worried about this, as ABMS is always saying, I'd get some sort of question about it now and then.
The only thing board certification has to do with for most is obtaining hospital privileges and/or getting reimbursed by insurance companies. At my hospital you must be BE/BC to obtain privileges, but if you aren't BC within 2 years of finishing residency you are off the medical staff.
 

aneftp

7+ Year Member
Mar 23, 2010
1,878
743
Status
Attending Physician
The only thing board certification has to do with for most is obtaining hospital privileges and/or getting reimbursed by insurance companies. At my hospital you must be BE/BC to obtain privileges, but if you aren't BC within 2 years of finishing residency you are off the medical staff.
You sure about 2 years time frame. Usually hospitals have 5-7 years to get boarded from time of finishing residency/fellowship.

Is that an anesthesia policy? Cause surgeons/ob etc take AT least 2 years to get board certified.

Anesthesia takes 1 year to get board certified. So that leaves very little wiggle room if one fails written exam twice or orals twice or some combination.
 
OP
pgg

pgg

Laugh at me, will they?
Administrator
10+ Year Member
Dec 15, 2005
12,226
8,365
Not home
Status
Attending Physician
The only thing board certification has to do with for most is obtaining hospital privileges and/or getting reimbursed by insurance companies. At my hospital you must be BE/BC to obtain privileges, but if you aren't BC within 2 years of finishing residency you are off the medical staff.
So if someone fails either the written or the oral once, they're de-credentialed and can't practice there? Harsh. Or do you mean they just can't serve on medical staff committees?
 

Mman

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
Mar 22, 2005
4,944
2,715
Status
Attending Physician
So if someone fails either the written or the oral once, they're de-credentialed and can't practice there? Harsh. Or do you mean they just can't serve on medical staff committees?
They get privileges suspended until they are BC. It's a bit draconian, but it's always been that way here. 2 years of BE is good, but after that it's BC only although I think they can give a waiver if you have passed part of the process. You have to specially apply for the waiver to keep active while finishing whatever you have left.
 
Last edited:

IlDestriero

Ether Man
10+ Year Member
Nov 24, 2007
7,606
7,137
The ivory tower.
Status
Attending Physician
My group requires you to get the peds board certification within 3 years. If you failed the written, we would never hire you in the first place. Obviously you need a fellowship as well.
You could fail the oral board and peds board once. But if you were failing all these tests, you would not get your appointment renewed anyway.