More Seats in Med school?

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It is obvious that the US and world population is growing with a need for more qualified doctors...Why aren't there more open seats at med schools to compensate for this?

 

[MED123]

It is obvious that the US and world population is growing with a need for more qualified doctors...Why aren't there more open seats at med schools to compensate for this?

Well, FAU at Boca Raton campus will soon perhaps be a medical school. Currently they are starting with 16 UM med students for the next fall. Thats a start. Sure, we need plenty more schoools.

 

[Odaroloc]

What if more schools lead to lower standards? What about schools that make you commit to primary care?

 

[Fermata]

It won't happen.

 

[TRUE]

Schools can't just open more seats all of a sudden. The support for the students needs to be there and you can't all of a sudden go from 100 students to 200 from one day to the next. With that being said, there are some new schools, including Florida State University (not to be confused with University of Florida). I think that was the last school to come online.

 

[moo]

There's also been like 10 new DO schools within the last 10 years. Another three or four "branch campuses" are opening up within the next couple years (Touro-Las Vegas, PCOM-Atlanta, LECOM-Florida). Pretty soon being a doctor will be like being a lawyer--the school from which you graduate will actually matter (if it doesn't already) in where or even if you get a residency.

 

[W222]

This is an excellent question. It was explained to me once that the system currently cant support any more students. The AMA likes to put a scare into people telling them their will be a surplus of Docs soon, but in reality the surplus is only in certain areas. No one wants to work in sh@thole local hospitals in the middle of no where, SO Docs end up concentrated in one area and needed in another. There is also the issue of residency spots. There are double the number of spots than graduates and this is supposed to allow foreign docs to train here. Only one problem, no one wants to go home once they see how nice it is here. These foreign recruits also fill a much needed residency spot, which in turn provides the hospital with a cheap alternative to hiring a fulltime attending.

 

[Tone2002]

In Texas, a medical school in El Paso is on the way.

 

[Tone2002]

It sure is. I am here now. THis location is wack and I have been here for 6yrs. I would never have applied.

LOL, I can imagine. The location isn't very desirable.

 

[bearpaw]

yeah, i think do schools can open up fairly easy but not md schools. its ok, unless you're doing primary care its not really going to affect you, as DO's will never be able to take md residencies or anything. if a do gets an MD spot, they'd have ot be equally qualified, which won't happen that often.

 

[ghgi8]

yeah, i think do schools can open up fairly easy but not md schools. its ok, unless you're doing primary care its not really going to affect you, as DO's will never be able to take md residencies or anything. if a do gets an MD spot, they'd have ot be equally qualified, which won't happen that often.

those are some hefty generalizations you are making.

 

[hypersting]

Its actually a pretty dirty trick. The seats are kept arificially low at about 16,500 while there are 25,000 residency spots. This allows the US to steal doctors who are trained in other countries due to the quality of life here. This is what happens, the host country takes all the expensive of raising the person and training them and then they turn around and give all their productive years back to the US. The original country has now lost an educated member of its society and the economy that person would generate. Many countries have been wanting payback for training by the US government or by the people who leave, but nothing has been finalized yet.

Seats will not open up because right now the US can fill 25,000 residency spots with only 16,500 seats. The burden of training falls on other countries (or the student if they go to the carribean). Why would they ruin this advantage?

 

[brats800]

also, some schools add room for a few more students when they upgrade / build new facilities...

 

[Ghost]

all of the schools in texas (i'm not sure about baylor) increased their enrollment last year, creating roughly 120 more spots statewide.

 

[bearpaw]

those are some hefty generalizations you are making.

i guess DO's are just as good as MD's right? and lets let Nurse practitioners do neurosurgery too. in the name of fairness and equity, let's take merit and talent out of the equation!

that will never happen. harvard students are better than drexel students, by and large. the same can be said for any MD school vs. any DO school. The problem is, to get into drexel you still need ot be pretty smart, but to get into a DO school you just need a 25 and a 3.2. Not everyone in a DO school is stupid, but most of them aren't as smart as those in MD school. I mean, I'm no genius but i got a 24 on my first mcat sample without studying and i gave up towards the end of every section. I can't imagine someone who does worse than that AFTER studying being even somewhat qualified to be a doctor.

by opening more schools, they are automatically lowering the bar. the question is whether or not that is appropriate.

don't knock me for saying what you all already know. everyone here, all 17000 of us who got into allopathic schools could have gone DO. I mean, DO schools offer everything that MD schools offer plus manipulation, so why did everyone choose MD? Because it is more reputable. No one wants to putz around with a DO, except the extreme minority. We all know the stigma, and the numbers prove it is warrented.

i'm not a big fan of medicine "diversifing" by letting less qualified individuals take over the work of others. Fortunately, that won't happen as you get specialized because you have to compete with MD's for those spots.

i'm all about paying DO's and FMG's less and letting them do primary care. Its better for those of us who are more qualified. its a hit though, as MD's that are talented and still want to do primary care will be compensated poorly for it.

If you think DO's and FMG's are the same as MD's from the US, you're ******ed, plain and simple. I'm not even kidding, i truly think there is something lacking in your mental development that makes someone so ignorant. That's like saying community college is like going to Columbia. There are some good people everywhere, just like you you can find a piece of corn in your ****, but if i want to eat corn i'll check on my plate first.

plate = US allopathic school, because some people still don't get it.

 

[Luck]

yeah, i think do schools can open up fairly easy but not md schools. its ok, unless you're doing primary care its not really going to affect you, as DO's will never be able to take md residencies or anything. if a do gets an MD spot, they'd have ot be equally qualified, which won't happen that often.

Stop talking out of your ass.

To the OP, DO schools are filling that void and like moo said are multiplying like crazy. Two schools each with about 100 students opened last year and one opened this year.

To you Mr. bearpaw, 60% of DOs now enter into allopathic residency. That's almost 2000 a year that are taking those spots away. These aren't just primary care spots but also speciality spots. All a DO has to do is blow the USMLE out of the water and they are on the same footing as you MD grads.

As DOs grow it certainly will make it more competitive to get those spots. Also remember that each year about 7,000 spots go to FMGs from the Caribbean and other countries. There are plenty of allopathic spots to go around.

Anyways, bearpaw be very afraid of DOs. You can talk all the trash you want but when it comes down to you it DOs are becoming very powerful in this country.

 

[bearpaw]

Stop talking out of your ass.

To the OP, DO schools are filling that void and like moo said are multiplying like crazy. Two schools each with about 100 students opened last year and one opened this year.

To you Mr. bearpaw, 60% of DOs now enter into allopathic residency. That's almost 2000 a year that are taking those spots away. These aren't just primary care spots but also speciality spots. All a DO has to do is blow the USMLE out of the water and they are on the same footing as you MD grads.

As DOs grow it certainly will make it more competitive to get those spots. Also remember that each year about 7,000 spots go to FMGs from the Caribbean and other countries. There are plenty of allopathic spots to go around.

Anyways, bearpaw be very afraid of DOs. You can talk all the trash you want but when it comes down to you it DOs are becoming very powerful in this country.

yeah, all they have to do is compete with MD's. that's fine, if they do just as well on their USMLE I guess we're all equal.

most of them can't compete with MD's. I am sure when a residency is looking at applicants, MD's get priority, unless the DO has the same scores, which will not happen very often for semi competitive things.

how am i talking out my ass? that's right, there are 7000 extra spots every year, DO's and FMG's can kill each other trying to get them. Those spots aren't going to go up significantly no matter how many DO schools pop out of the woodwork.

 

[Luck]

i'm all about paying DO's and FMG's less and letting them do primary care. Its better for those of us who are more qualified. its a hit though, as MD's that are talented and still want to do primary care will be compensated poorly for it.

Oh still talking trash I see. The salary of primary care physicians won't go down, it will only go up due to inflation. Also who the heck are you to make such stupid generalizations. Your thinking is messed up.

As DOs enter into primary care, they're not going to refer to punk ass MD specialists like you who have such a snobby, aristicrat tone to them. They're going to refer to other DOs and MDs who are nice to them. That means less business for people like you. 👎

 

[leechy]

Its actually a pretty dirty trick. The seats are kept arificially low at about 16,500 while there are 25,000 residency spots. This allows the US to steal doctors who are trained in other countries due to the quality of life here. This is what happens, the host country takes all the expensive of raising the person and training them and then they turn around and give all their productive years back to the US. The original country has now lost an educated member of its society and the economy that person would generate. Many countries have been wanting payback for training by the US government or by the people who leave, but nothing has been finalized yet.

Seats will not open up because right now the US can fill 25,000 residency spots with only 16,500 seats. The burden of training falls on other countries (or the student if they go to the carribean). Why would they ruin this advantage?

Yeah, it Is a pretty lousy trick. Foreign countries get robbed of their best physicians.... And Americans get screwed over too - they have an inordinately difficult time getting into medical school because the number of seats here is kept artificially low. Of course, since doctors can't unionize, I guess that artificially limiting the number of medical school seats is the AMA's way of maintaining some sort of control... i.e., because the number of seats are low, the AMA ensures that simply having an MD from an American school will be worth a lot. This is in contrast to law and business degrees, where they're only really worth a lot if you're coming from top 15 schools.

And it's pretty much a windfall for the foreign medical graduates... they typically spend SO LITTLE money getting their college educations and medical degrees in foreign countries... My father, for instance, spent the American equivalent of $40 for his medical education... and now he makes the same amount of money as American educated doctors, except he didn't have to bear the burden of a $100,000 debt... As an American, I'm kind of pissed about this dichotomy, but there's nothing I can do.

Of course, it's also true that the FMGs do take the less desirable primary care residencies in less desirable parts of the country... so they ARE being used as cheap labor at hospitals...

I don't know what side of the debate to fall on, but something about the current situation is sort of messed up.

 

[Luck]

yeah, all they have to do is compete with MD's. that's fine, if they do just as well on their USMLE I guess we're all equal.

most of them can't compete with MD's. I am sure when a residency is looking at applicants, MD's get priority, unless the DO has the same scores, which will not happen very often for semi competitive things.

how am i talking out my ass? that's right, there are 7000 extra spots every year, DO's and FMG's can kill each other trying to get them. Those spots aren't going to go up significantly no matter how many DO schools pop out of the woodwork.

If you go to the website for the residents of basically any allopathic residency ranging from surgery, anesthesiology, radiology, ob-gyn, internal medicine, etc. you'll see a few DOs in there. They've taken many DOs at Yale for their anesthesiology program.

There only a few places that still don't take DOs and maybe in the ultra competitive specialties like Optho you may not find any. So stop talking trash when you really don't know what you're talking about. You'll discover the truth once you're out in your residency and practice.

 

[trauma_junky]

It's called insuring a high salary. We are the only nation in the world that underproduces doctors. Lawyers on the other hand... And people wonder why medicine in practive letigously.

 

[Robz]

I can see this thread taking a nose dive into yet another MD vs DO thread....

yay

🙄

 

[ewing]

Its actually a pretty dirty trick. The seats are kept arificially low at about 16,500 while there are 25,000 residency spots. This allows the US to steal doctors who are trained in other countries due to the quality of life here. This is what happens, the host country takes all the expensive of raising the person and training them and then they turn around and give all their productive years back to the US. The original country has now lost an educated member of its society and the economy that person would generate. Many countries have been wanting payback for training by the US government or by the people who leave, but nothing has been finalized yet.

Seats will not open up because right now the US can fill 25,000 residency spots with only 16,500 seats. The burden of training falls on other countries (or the student if they go to the carribean). Why would they ruin this advantage?

Got to love the GATS. 🙄 Seriously, though, I think that IPPNW and some of its affiliates have long been decrying this practice, of doctors in medically underserved countries in southern africa going to south africa, of south african doctors going to england, of the whole world using philippina nurses, and so forth. Does anyone know whether AMSA has taken a strong stand on this?

 

[SunnyS81]

1) increasing seats does lower quality.....there are only so many good students out there
2) Michigan estimates it costs $92k/YEAR to train a student....only 1/3 comes from tuition, so there is an economic constraint.
3) There was a point where people thought there would be a huge shortage, and so lots of of med schools had HUGE classes.....that turned out not to be true, and most have reduced class sizes (observable in the class size here at UM.....apparently many schools opened in that era)
4) FMG are much more likely to go into primary care just because of the competitiveness involved in getting into a speciality. Allowing them to come here is actually a great idea.....if you can't get enough great MD grads from your own country...import (and yes increasing class size wouldn't increase the number of great grads)
5) The maldistribution of physicians won't be solved by opening more schools. If anything, I get the impression that DO's practice more in rural communities. One reason that DO's are going into MD residencies is that although new DO schools have opened....few DO residency spots have opened. Northern California and New England have more than enough physicians......so the people exist.....they just aren't in ther right places. Increasing spots will only perpetuate the problem.
6) The number of residency spots that exist are there for a reason....that is the predicted demand.....they want FMG to come here to fill the spots. It's mutually beneficial.
7) Just because a DO matches into an optho or rad spot SOMEWHERE, doesn't mean they are on equal footing. There is a difference between being in rads at MGH and a community based hospital. If you want to make an argument that the best DO grads are equal to the worst MD grads, go for it. There are intelligent people in DO schools, just very few in my opinion. One of my good friends who I consider an academic equal is at a DO school for strange reasons, and even she admits that she is performing well above her peers. Then there are people who develop a work ethic later in life. EIther way its POSSIBLE and happens....but when DO schools interview people with a gpa a full point below mine and an average (24) mcat, I don't think you'll be able to convince many people that for the most part they have equally competant student bodies (on a flight recently, I sat next to an traditional non-URM girl with nothing special....upper-middleclass.....large state school....bio major with those stats....I was dumbfounded).

In my opinion the number of schools/seats should DECREASE.....either that or require people to commit to rural/military medicine (places like Mercer).

 

[bearpaw]

Oh still talking trash I see. The salary of primary care physicians won't go down, it will only go up due to inflation. Also who the heck are you to make such stupid generalizations. Your thinking is messed up.

As DOs enter into primary care, they're not going to refer to punk ass MD specialists like you who have such a snobby, aristicrat tone to them. They're going to refer to other DOs and MDs who are nice to them. That means less business for people like you. 👎

i read some of your other posts. i might have opinions, but at least i have some reasoning behind them. you're just an idiot. in fact, i honestly believe you're the type of twit that hurts the reputations of doctors, as your good intentions don't make up for your own lack of ability.

i read about how you struggle to get a 30 and i imagine the rest of your academic life is just as difficult.

i don't think everyone is qualified to be a doctor. i do not like people who besmudge the profession by sneaking in the backdoor. there should be a stamp on your forehead saying "I couldnt get an MD" so your patients understand that. I read your other posts about how the carribean and osteo schools are viable options...they are if you want to make money, but if you can't get into an MD school there is a reason behind that.

Look, you are exactly the type of person i think does not deserve be a doctor. You're probably nice, do some EC's that involve medical stuff, talk about how you want to save the world etc., but the problem is that you don't have the inborn and cultivated ability. You probably can't see it (i am sure), but when you look at your grades, your mcats, your undergrad school, where you will go to med school, these things reveal themselves.

there is no DO vs. MD...thats like saying "community college vs. ivy league". You even get the same books sometimes, but there are differences.

 

[Luck]

i read some of your other posts. i might have opinions, but at least i have some reasoning behind them. you're just an idiot. in fact, i honestly believe you're the type of twit that hurts the reputations of doctors, as your good intentions don't make up for your own lack of ability.

i read about how you struggle to get a 30 and i imagine the rest of your academic life is just as difficult.

i don't think everyone is qualified to be a doctor. i do not like people who besmudge the profession by sneaking in the backdoor. there should be a stamp on your forehead saying "I couldnt get an MD" so your patients understand that. I read your other posts about how the carribean and osteo schools are viable options...they are if you want to make money, but if you can't get into an MD school there is a reason behind that.

Look, you are exactly the type of person i think does not deserve be a doctor. You're probably nice, do some EC's that involve medical stuff, talk about how you want to save the world etc., but the problem is that you don't have the inborn and cultivated ability. You probably can't see it (i am sure), but when you look at your grades, your mcats, your undergrad school, where you will go to med school, these things reveal themselves.

there is no DO vs. MD...thats like saying "community college vs. ivy league". You even get the same books sometimes, but there are differences.

No bearpaw you're the idiot. You put down DOs and FMGs and you know nothing about it. You assume I don't have the ability and that's why I went to a osteopathic school.

You sir don't deserve to be a doctor. Self-righteous attitudes like yourself who think they are better than others just because their gpa or MCAT was a bit higher is pitiful and pathetic. These gunner-types certainly don't deserve to have the opportunity to help others. I sure feel sorry for your patients. 🙄

 

[W222]

BEARPAW Anyone who goes into this process knows that MCATs, undergrad school, grades, etc. HAS JACK SH@T TO DO WITH HOW GOOD OF A DOCTOR YOU ARE. MD or DO. It is wrong to say that others dont have the ability and cop-out by going to a DO school. Frankly, if everyone had your attitude then people like myself would not be going to med school. Thank God this is not the case. I went to a small no-name undergrad because I didnt take high school seriously, a very difficult and demanding high school. So I was stuck going to school X while most of my classmates went Ivy, little Ivy, and so on. I ran into several from my class over the years and many just burned out. Some of the smartest were taking the 5-7 year plan during college. Why? Not because they did have the ability but because they lacked maturity and drive. The only thing it takes to be a good Doc is maturity, drive, and persistence. I found all the choices I have made in life to make me a better person in the long run. Maybe you should expand your mind and drop the attitude, you may be working under a DO attending or a foreign grad some day.

 

[Luck]

BEARPAW Anyone who goes into this process knows that MCATs, undergrad school, grades, etc. HAS JACK SH@T TO DO WITH HOW GOOD OF A DOCTOR YOU ARE. MD or DO. It is wrong to say that others dont have the ability and cop-out by going to a DO school. Frankly, if everyone had your attitude then people like myself would not be going to med school. Thank God this is not the case. I went to a small no-name undergrad because I didnt take high school seriously, a very difficult and demanding high school. So I was stuck going to school X while most of my classmates went Ivy, little Ivy, and so on. I ran into several from my class over the years and many just burned out. Some of the smartest were taking the 5-7 year plan during college. Why? Not because they did have the ability but because they lacked maturity and drive. The only thing it takes to be a good Doc is maturity, drive, and persistence. I found all the choices I have made in life to make me a better person in the long run. Maybe you should expand your mind and drop the attitude, you may be working under a DO attending or a foreign grad some day.

W222, I couldn't agree more. The funny thing is, bearpaw most likely will be working under a DO or FMG. Secretly he's going to have this hatred and think they didn't deserve to be doctors. Such a man doesn't deserve to become a physician himself.

 

[IndyZX]

The funny thing is, bearpaw most likely will be working under a DO or FMG.

I'm no DO hata, but what does this mean? Why would he most likely work under a DO or FMG?

 

[W222]

It is more likely he will work under an FMG, there are tons of foreign docs in the US now.

 

[bearpaw]

why will i be a terrible doctor? because i think idiots shouldn't be doctors? because i know DO's are not as smart as MD's? i mean, even you admitted that luck in previous posts, luck.

look, anytime someone gets mad at someone sdn, there is always a "i'll think you'll be a terrible doctor" backlash. however, there is no reasoning to why i won't be a good doctor, as i am intelligent, personable, and compassionate. You might not think i'm personable, but thats because i just told you exactly why i think you are the reason doctors don't get respect anymore. look, i don't think the mcats are the end all of everything, but if you can't get a decent score, there are lots of other things you can't do well either, like reason effectively.

I know plenty of FMG's and kids who went to the carribean too. In fact, i know two girls at Ross right now (i know one quite well). They all have two things in common: they didn't get into US med schools and they are all are not, in my mind, intelligent. I certainly would not want to put my health in their shaky hands.

 

[W222]

You have alot of growing up to do BEARPAW. How can you say DOs are less intelligent? How is that even possible? Because their MCAT say so, that test means very little. It doesnt even correlate to Step 1 scores. It is used to weed out people for interviews, which is sad but true.

 

[learss]

i read some of your other posts. i might have opinions, but at least i have some reasoning behind them. you're just an idiot. in fact, i honestly believe you're the type of twit that hurts the reputations of doctors, as your good intentions don't make up for your own lack of ability.

i read about how you struggle to get a 30 and i imagine the rest of your academic life is just as difficult.

i don't think everyone is qualified to be a doctor. i do not like people who besmudge the profession by sneaking in the backdoor. there should be a stamp on your forehead saying "I couldnt get an MD" so your patients understand that. I read your other posts about how the carribean and osteo schools are viable options...they are if you want to make money, but if you can't get into an MD school there is a reason behind that.

Look, you are exactly the type of person i think does not deserve be a doctor. You're probably nice, do some EC's that involve medical stuff, talk about how you want to save the world etc., but the problem is that you don't have the inborn and cultivated ability. You probably can't see it (i am sure), but when you look at your grades, your mcats, your undergrad school, where you will go to med school, these things reveal themselves.

there is no DO vs. MD...thats like saying "community college vs. ivy league". You even get the same books sometimes, but there are differences.

You Bearpaw are the reason why so many people see doctors as arrogant and dismissive of their patients. Do you know Luck? How can you be so condescending? You must be speaking from years of experience as a physician to say what makes a great doctor. Oops, you don't have that. So what are you basing your opinion on? Hmmm, it must be because you worked on a medical school admissions committee. Nope, I don't see that part as part of your work experience. So where did you come up with inborn and cultivated ability? Please tell me. I am dying to know. 🙂

It takes alot more than stellar MCATS and high grades to be a good doctor. In addition, a Harvard medical student is no better than a Drexel medical student. At the end of day, they will both be doctors.

 

[TRUE]

their MCAT say so, that test means very little. It doesnt even correlate to Step 1 scores. It is used to weed out people for interviews, which is sad but true.

This has nothing to do with DO's vs. MD's, but actaully the MCAT correlates very well with STEP 1 scores. There are many, many scientific studies (available on the AAMC website even), that discuss this correlation.

 

[zinjanthropus]

yeah, i think do schools can open up fairly easy but not md schools. its ok, unless you're doing primary care its not really going to affect you, as DO's will never be able to take md residencies or anything. if a do gets an MD spot, they'd have ot be equally qualified, which won't happen that often.

this doesn't make any sense. first of all, the difficulty of opening up a medical school has a LOT to do with start up costs - that's one reason you get a lot more law school than medical school. therefore, an osteopathic and allopathic school will create many of the same obstacles. a second difficulty is that medical schools are governed by a national body - both osteopathic and allopathic schools have such a regulatory system and, thus, face similar hurdles in this respect as well.

 

[zinjanthropus]

i read some of your other posts. i might have opinions, but at least i have some reasoning behind them. you're just an idiot. in fact, i honestly believe you're the type of twit that hurts the reputations of doctors, as your good intentions don't make up for your own lack of ability.

i read about how you struggle to get a 30 and i imagine the rest of your academic life is just as difficult.

i don't think everyone is qualified to be a doctor. i do not like people who besmudge the profession by sneaking in the backdoor. there should be a stamp on your forehead saying "I couldnt get an MD" so your patients understand that. I read your other posts about how the carribean and osteo schools are viable options...they are if you want to make money, but if you can't get into an MD school there is a reason behind that.

Look, you are exactly the type of person i think does not deserve be a doctor. You're probably nice, do some EC's that involve medical stuff, talk about how you want to save the world etc., but the problem is that you don't have the inborn and cultivated ability. You probably can't see it (i am sure), but when you look at your grades, your mcats, your undergrad school, where you will go to med school, these things reveal themselves.

there is no DO vs. MD...thats like saying "community college vs. ivy league". You even get the same books sometimes, but there are differences.

okay, you are clearly violating some TOS here..in addition, a number of your posts seem to be full of sweeping and illogical generalizations that are aimed at getting people all worked up.

 

[hakksar]

I noticed a lot of debate on this thread about decreasing quality by increasing seats. I can see where they are coming from in areas with a lot of medical schools. However, in areas with a lot less medical schools per application numbers (ie the entire western US) this will not be true. There are many 30 MCAT, 3.6 GPA applicants with a lot of EC's that do not get in every year from states like California, Oregon, Washington, Utah, New Mexico, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and Alaska. This is because there are a lot less spots per applicant numbers in these states compared to the rest of the country. This makes the state schools (what everyone in the rest of the country considers safety schools) extremely difficult to get into. In addition, out of all the states I mentioned only California has private schools (Stanford, USC, Loma Linda, and a couple Osteopathic Schools). This only makes the problem worse in the Western US. I think that considering most of the west is medically underserved (pretty much all of Colorado not to mention the other states) that there does need to be more medical school seats. However, these seats should be in locations that have the applicant base and the need for more physicians. This will serve the purpose of adding more physicians in areas of need without decreasing the quality of matriculants.

 

[Robz]

I always wondered why they didn't open more medical schools in places like montana, idaho, or the dakotas....keep people in those areas for rural medicine and primary care.

(its a pipe dream I know)

 

[bearpaw]

this doesn't make any sense. first of all, the difficulty of opening up a medical school has a LOT to do with start up costs - that's one reason you get a lot more law school than medical school. therefore, an osteopathic and allopathic school will create many of the same obstacles. a second difficulty is that medical schools are governed by a national body - both osteopathic and allopathic schools have such a regulatory system and, thus, face similar hurdles in this respect as well.

well, then why have several DO schools opened recently? there has to be something about opening them that is easier. i am sure that some people would love to open a 100k a year MD school if they could, as i am sure people would go. there is sometihng that bars opening an MD school, i am certain it has to do with some sort accredition. Hell, even temple got put on probation, and it had a functioning hospital and adequate facilities! (i know, i was accepted there).

to the poster that said Drexel med= harvard, are you serious? you can get a BS in engineering from Southern Podunk U and from MIT, who do you think is more likely to make a bridge strong enough to support your obese girlfriend? Not all MD's are equal either. In education, as in all things, there is a hierarchy. Letters behind you name don't make you equal, its ability. You can generalize things in groups to make a hierarchy, such as MD's are better than DO's and top 20 schools are better than bottom schools 80-100. There will always be exceptions, as the smartest kid at drexel will be more talented that someone at harvard, but on average the harvard kids will be more intelligent.

I am not knocking drexel, hell, i'm on the waitlist there! I'm just saying what is obvious to those who aren't not painfully politically correct.

 

[Luck]

You Bearpaw are the reason why so many people see doctors as arrogant and dismissive of their patients. Do you know Luck? How can you be so condescending? You must be speaking from years of experience as a physician to say what makes a great doctor. Oops, you don't have that. So what are you basing your opinion on?

Exactly he doesn't know me so I don't know where he gets off saying that stuff.

Bearpaw, I think DOs are just as intelligent as MDs. I also made that thread in the MCAT forum to advise people there still is hope if they got below a 30 on their MCAT via DO or caribbean. As for myself, I took the MCAT a long time ago and my score was good enough to get into an allopathic school as well as my gpa.

However, that's not the point. The point is you assume DO students are less intelligent because you assume they have lower stats. There are several DO students who had the stats to go into an allopathic school but went osteopathic for various reasons. This is why your statements are irrelevant simply because they are based on the notion that all DO students are stupider than MD students.

 

[W222]

TRUE Why are my friends who are taking the boards next week telling me their med school and Dean's have told them this? Last I heard the only MCAT-Step 1 correlation is in the verbal section. People who do better in verbal tend to do better at Step 1. Therefor saying the MCAT (total score) means you will do better on step 1 is not accurate.

 

[bearpaw]

TRUE Why are my friends who are taking the boards next week telling me their med school and Dean's have told them this? Last I heard the only MCAT-Step 1 correlation is in the verbal section. People who do better in verbal tend to do better at Step 1. Therefor saying the MCAT (total score) means you will do better on step 1 is not accurate.

hell, then why require the mcat at all? academic measures don't mean anything, do they? you're just as smart as a kid with a 41, aren't you?

should we let people into med school based on their level of pure intentions?

 

[W222]

The MCAT is not a predictor of STEP1 scores, just looked this up. The MCAT is a predictor of success in the first two years. The MCAT is set up to level the playing field for all who attend different undergrads.

BEARPAW SAID: Should we let people into school based on pure intentions? Well, why not. Lewis Thomas MD, famous pathologist-author-medical educator, thought the MCAT should be thrown out and that candidates should be picked by psychological factors. Makes sense to me.

 

[Allygator89]

Ultiimately, it comes down to having the facilities, faculty available to teach and the money from the state. If you attend a state supported school, they allot a certain amount of money. If the money isn't there (hence, tuition increases in a way) you cannot support more medical students.

 

[TRUE]

The MCAT is not a predictor of STEP1 scores, just looked this up. The MCAT is a predictor of success in the first two years.

Actually, it is. http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/research/bibliography/start.htm

There are plenty of studies cited there that conclude that MCAT scores have predictive value for STEP 1 scores. It has not been shown to date, however, that MCAT scores say anything about one's clinical competence. That's likely due to the fact that if someone is able to do well on the MCAT (a huge, pressure packed test), they're also have the ability to do well on a similar test a higher level. Some people are just better at standardized. Even if people know material equally well, there are people who will always do better on standardized tests.

 

[medicomel]

Exactly he doesn't know me so I don't know where he gets off saying that stuff.

Bearpaw, I think DOs are just as intelligent as MDs. I also made that thread in the MCAT forum to advise people there still is hope if they got below a 30 on their MCAT via DO or caribbean. As for myself, I took the MCAT a long time ago and my score was good enough to get into an allopathic school as well as my gpa.

However, that's not the point. The point is you assume DO students are less intelligent because you assume they have lower stats. There are several DO students who had the stats to go into an allopathic school but went osteopathic for various reasons. This is why your statements are irrelevant simply because they are based on the notion that all DO students are stupider than MD students.

And let's face it. This world is peppered with stupid MDs, DOs, lawyers, etc. You can't make sweeping statements about the intelligence of certain groups; you have to have a person's transcripts, test scores, major, quality of undergrad...blah blah blah...in front of you to tell the whole story. Not all GPAs are equal. Many many intelligent people started out their college careers on shaky ground for various and sundry reasons and could never get it up to a highly competitive level for allopathic schools. If you're hell-bent on going to an allopathic school, you can spend thousands of dollars and extra years taking upper-level post-bac courses and make A's, or you can make an informed decision and go to an osteopathic school. To say that somebody with a D.O. after her name is not as intelligent as an M.D. is faulty logic. I have yet to see an M.D. that has a problem with D.O.s; from my shadowing experiences and conversations with doctors, it seems that they coexist quite well.

 

[W222]

You must not be used to interpreting studies, let me explain it for you. These findings support the use of the MCAT for admission, and there is a correlation between institutions MCAT score AVGs and STEP1. This being said, there is still not correlation between individual scores and STEP1. From the latest study, you cant throw out the value of individual institutional academic preparation for STEP1. Understand, no predictive value between MCAT alone and STEP1.

 

[TRUE]

You must not be used to interpreting studies, let me explain it for you. These findings support the use of the MCAT for admission, and there is a correlation between institutions MCAT score AVGs and STEP1. This being said, there is still not correlation between individual scores and STEP1. From the latest study, you cant throw out the value of individual institutional academic preparation for STEP1. Understand, no predictive value between MCAT alone and STEP1.

Well, actually, you seem to be wrong.

http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/research/bibliography/basco001.htm

Taken from the results paragraph:

"There were substantial correlations between individual MCAT scores and USMLE Step 1 scores. Correlations between individual MCAT scores and the USMLE Step 1 scores were slightly higher than institutional MCAT scores, in part due to adjustment for restriction in range. For the regression model without undergraduate selectivity measures, multicollinearity was observed in MCAT Physical Sciences (MCAT-PS) scores and MCAT Biological Sciences (MCAT-BS) scores"

They then go on to talk about institutional MCAT scores as well, but the evidence for individual correlation is clear. (and please, there is no need to attack me, or anyone else when someone disagrees with you. I can interpret studies as well as the next guy).

There is also another study that discusses individual correlation here:

http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/research/bibliography/silve001.htm

 

[BubbleBobble]

I always wondered why they didn't open more medical schools in places like montana, idaho, or the dakotas....keep people in those areas for rural medicine and primary care.

(its a pipe dream I know)

We're trying. The issue of expanding care into rural western areas has been discussed at length at the UW, and there was previously talk of creating a new medical school in eastern WA. However, it was determined that the cost of creating a new medical school was prohibitive, so as a compromise, they expanded the WWAMI program. That's why a good chunk of the people accepted into the UW start the medical school careers in eastern WA, Idaho, Montana, etc. and finish in Seattle. We hope that more people will go back into those rural areas to practice once they finish residency.

 

[ih8biochem]

It's called insuring a high salary. We are the only nation in the world that underproduces doctors. Lawyers on the other hand... And people wonder why medicine in practive letigously.

I read that back in the 70s, helthcare cost were getting out of hand and the federal government actaully started mandating that more schools be built and gave breaks to schools who'd accept more students in hopes of increasing competition and driving the cost of helthcare back down. They now learned, however, that this doesn't work. Instead of comepeting, doctors just come up with new and different treatments to charge patients for. Physicians just kept on specializing and creating or filling their niche. It's said that glut isn't through the pipe yet. I don't think med school seats would me increasing dramatically in the near future.