MORE Volunteering = LESS Desirable Applicant?

[487806]

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Indeed. At worst, volunteering is one of MANY dues you'll be paying for the next 10ish years, and one of the easiest.

That's sadly a true statement. 🙁

 

[sieg5]

😕 No one's feeling superior here. So tell me. If you have to describe your experiences as a volunteer and all you did was essentially bed cleaning/filing/shelving etc., would you say I had the passion to do all these stuff because I'm being cooperative?

You will gain experience with being in a clinical setting, regardless of if you're only doing something simple like shelving, it's possible and very probable if you discount volunteering that someone can get licensure without ever even entering a hospital, maybe they're fit as phil their entire life and then all of a sudden, it's their work place and they are prescribing patients medicine, they give the patient some medicine that came from a machine that wasn't stocked properly, they don't know about this mechanical device that's exclusive to that hospital, and they end up giving a patient the wrong medicine, the patient dies.

 

[Spinach Dip]

I'm not going to lie. I got absolutely nothing out of my hospital volunteering experience.

I'm not going to lie. I'm going to lie about my experiences, how "important" and "deeply insightful" they were. I even have a few sketches I can mention if an interviewer asks me to elaborate.

I hate this application process so much.

Interviewer: So, what did you learn from your hospital volunteering?
Honest answer: Nothing
Actual answer: I shall never forget the tear in a young child's eye as his mother is wheeled into surgery. The helplessness... the fear... the dependence on the physicians art--itself so imprecise, so based on human frailty that nothing can be guaranteed...

and so on.

It's part of the game. You want in? You put your work in.

The best way to do it is simply game the **** out of it. I learned pretty quickly that there was no oversight at the hospital I volunteered at, so I showed up once a month for a few hours just to keep my card active. Boom, I get my volunteering out of the way and I sacrifice almost none of my time.

Everyone is playing this stupid song and dance and both sides know it. Med schools tout their commitment to primary care/community service, then jizz themselves when they have dudes match into derm/neurosurgery/plastics. Med students, most of the time, never admit to gunning for derm/neurosurg/plastics then study their ass off for a 260 board score. Every incoming med student, if they have an ounce of brainpower, will profess their love and desire to enter primary care and we all know how that story ends. The bull**** doesn't stop until you are done with residency because prestigious residencies want to hear about how much you want to go into academic medicine and by this point, you've become an artist with bull****. It's all a giant song and dance yet no one has the sack to call the system on it's bull****.

Once, just ONCE, I would like some interviewer to look for honesty and professionalism, rather than a interviewee that follows the exact script they want to hear.

 

[KnuxNole]

So then who will do the low tier work? It has to be done for the higher ups to function properly in their work, it's about cooperation. If you want to be a "winner" ok, then don't ascribe responsibility to other people, don't help them, you will be "better" than them, and everyone will have a terrible life, including you, (not saying you have a terrible life).

People who are paid to do that job. If hypothetically there is a place that doesn't invite volunteers, they will find someone to do it 😛

 

[sieg5]

Interviewer: So, what did you learn from your hospital volunteering?
Honest answer: Nothing

So, as someone who wants to work in medicine, you would have done better to watch "Titanic" 100 times in a row than learn the basics of being in that setting?

 

[KnuxNole]

They are saying that the time they spent in the hospital taught them nothing whatsoever. Sadly, there are cases where that does happen.

 

[sieg5]

People who are paid to do that job. If hypothetically there is a place that doesn't invite volunteers, they will find someone to do it 😛

And so the people who want money in return for their work won't get the job, and people who are able to do the job for nothing will. They will get experience and then they will be the ones who are able to demand money for their work, this is life.

 

[Spinach Dip]

So, as someone who wants to work in medicine, you would have done better to watch "Titanic" 100 times in a row than learn the basics of being in that setting?

Titanic starts to get boring after the first 30 or 40 times.

 

[Sidereum]

It's part of the game. You want in? You put your work in.

The best way to do it is simply game the **** out of it. I learned pretty quickly that there was no oversight at the hospital I volunteered at, so I showed up once a month for a few hours just to keep my card active. Boom, I get my volunteering out of the way and I sacrifice almost none of my time.

Everyone is playing this stupid song and dance and both sides know it. Med schools tout their commitment to primary care/community service, then jizz themselves when they have dudes match into derm/neurosurgery/plastics. Med students, most of the time, never admit to gunning for derm/neurosurg/plastics then study their ass off for a 260 board score. Every incoming med student, if they have an ounce of brainpower, will profess their love and desire to enter primary care and we all know how that story ends. The bull**** doesn't stop until you are done with residency because prestigious residencies want to hear about how much you want to go into academic medicine and by this point, you've become an artist with bull****. It's all a giant song and dance yet no one has the sack to call the system on it's bull****.

Wow, what a cynical (yet probably entirely true) perspective.

Honestly, it's not the years of education that makes me apprehensive about the path to becoming a physician, nor is it the emotional and spiritual sacrifices. It's not the difficulty of maintaining high grades and test scores, or spending a decade of my life in training. I can handle that. However, it's this never-ending hoop-jumping, the idea that, for whatever reason, every future physician has to be some kind of saint. Otherwise, they would never make a good doctor, right? They can't simply have a genuine passion for the field, and want to translate that passion into a way of bettering people's lives, can they?

I don't think it's fair to expect that everyone going into medical school is going to

a) Wish to volunteer for years at both clinical and non-clinical settings

b) Be interested in research

c) Have the ability and desire to maintain a leadership position

d) Test well

e) And on top of that, have the remaining energy to cultivate various personal hobbies

While these are great qualities to have, are they all necessary to be a good doctor?

 

[KnuxNole]

You will gain experience with being in a clinical setting, regardless of if you're only doing something simple like shelving, it's possible and very probable if you discount volunteering that someone can get licensure without ever even entering a hospital, maybe they're fit as phil their entire life and then all of a sudden, it's their work place and they are prescribing patients medicine, they give the patient some medicine that came from a machine that wasn't stocked properly, they don't know about this mechanical device that's exclusive to that hospital, and they end up giving a patient the wrong medicine, the patient dies.

lol, I might chuckle if someone pitched this to me as a real thing they gained from their shelf stacking experience and why they were a necessary member.

 

[Claudin]

Um... premeds don't "screw over hospitals" by half ass-ing (?) their responsibilities. The reason is because the roles given to them are not important ones. If a volunteer is there to fold blankets or make bed for patients, then that's great; it will save nurses some time. If someone is not there, then nobody will be screwed over.

You need to look at volunteerism in a more positive light. While most premeds don't volunteer with the intentions of a mother teresa, they are still contributing something to their community. So why say it's a bad thing?

As for gunners end up gunning for ROADs residencies... well, let's just say that someone is always going to be the denominator. And I don't think every gunner will choose ROAD anyways

 

[Sephiroth]

And so the people who want money in return for their work won't get the job, and people who are able to do the job for nothing will. They will get experience and then they will be the ones who are able to demand money for their work, this is life.

We're not talking about internships in advanced business workings, we're talking about labor/paper work around a hospital. It's something that there are already low level employees being paid to do, and volunteers essentially just do some of their work for them for a few hours during certain days of the week. It's not an unpaid bedpan-cleaning internship in order to gain a full-time bedpan-cleaning job with that experience. They pay CNAs to do that. So I'm not really sure what point your trying to make in the context of this discussion.

 

[pv515]

Just to reply to the OP:

My volunteer experience has absolutely changed my perspective on how people deal with their diseases in different ways. I believe it will make me a better physician, as I will be able to better establish trust with patients than other doctors who may not understand what it is to respect differences in individual patients. Even without this benefit, it was work that I considered to be important, and I absolutely would have still done it even if I had decided not to go in to medicine. Respecting people's differences and giving them comfort and understanding is a universally valuable skill.

I was lauded in several interviews about how my motivations are genuine (they are in fact), and how some medical students, given the technological, information centered world they grow up in, are incapable of maintaining a conversation with a patient or colleague without being distracted every 10 seconds, whereas I have demonstrated that ability.

It helped me get in to a top 25 school, and I have very very little research experience. So, I think your experience with pre-meds who volunteer has been that most of the volunteer work is not meaningful to them in any way. Find something you think is important and do that, and you will gain a lot from it I think.

Now, I do think I was incredibly lucky in finding a volutneer position that is important, so I can understand if it is difficult to find that. They're out there though, so keep trying 🙂

 

[amad01]

Volunteering is good and all, but I think it should be optional.

Undergrad costs thousands of dollars. Books, tuition, fees, gas, food, junk, all costs so much money. Application process costs thousands of dollars. Medical school costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. With UG school schedule, I only have room for a part time job that pays maybe $10/hr if I'm lucky, yet I can't even do that because ADCOMS believe that I can only be a good doctor if I work for free all throughout undergrad.... am I the only one who sees this as a terribly misguided system?

 

[amad01]

I don't see why med schools don't seek applicants like PA school does. PA schools usually encourage patient contact in a paid position. My state school requires 2000 hours patient care and says priority is given to those who worked in paid positions over volunteer. PA schools seem to "get it" more.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Volunteering is good and all, but I think it should be optional.

Undergrad costs thousands of dollars. Books, tuition, fees, gas, food, junk, all costs so much money. Application process costs thousands of dollars. Medical school costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. With UG school schedule, I only have room for a part time job that pays maybe $10/hr if I'm lucky, yet I can't even do that because ADCOMS believe that I can only be a good doctor if I work for free all throughout undergrad.... am I the only one who sees this as a terribly misguided system?

Generally all you need is some shadowing and a little bit of hospital volunteering. If you work that's an experience and will count for something.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I don't see why med schools don't seek applicants like PA school does. PA schools usually encourage patient contact in a paid position. My state school requires 2000 hours patient care and says priority is given to those who worked in paid positions over volunteer. PA schools seem to "get it" more.

1) because that would require an entire year off for most people.
2) biology majors are clinical degrees. So congrats, you got a bachelors and now need a CNA or an RN.
3) because PA school was set up by army medics who didn't want to go to med school at their age, didn't want to be nurses, and wanted to remain in a medical field.
4) It'd be a giant clusterF**k and would limit the amount of applicants to medical school to the amount of open positions in the country. I.e imagine 100k students trying to get paid positions?

 

[ScholarStud]

As mentioned above, I also really enjoy volunteering. OP, perhaps you are a bad fit for the practice of medicine. The large quantity of volunteering hours required help weed out those applicants that do not have a sincere desire to help others and serve the community.

If you manage to nut it up and get through 300 hours of clinical volunteering or whatever, congrats, but be prepared for a long, ****ty road ahead of you in the field of medicine.

 

[gettheleadout]

It's part of the game. You want in? You put your work in.

The best way to do it is simply game the **** out of it. I learned pretty quickly that there was no oversight at the hospital I volunteered at, so I showed up once a month for a few hours just to keep my card active. Boom, I get my volunteering out of the way and I sacrifice almost none of my time.

Everyone is playing this stupid song and dance and both sides know it. Med schools tout their commitment to primary care/community service, then jizz themselves when they have dudes match into derm/neurosurgery/plastics. Med students, most of the time, never admit to gunning for derm/neurosurg/plastics then study their ass off for a 260 board score. Every incoming med student, if they have an ounce of brainpower, will profess their love and desire to enter primary care and we all know how that story ends. The bull**** doesn't stop until you are done with residency because prestigious residencies want to hear about how much you want to go into academic medicine and by this point, you've become an artist with bull****. It's all a giant song and dance yet no one has the sack to call the system on it's bull****.

Everybody that for some reason thinks volunteering is required of them and doesn't want to do it needs to NOT DO IT. You're wasting your own time and insulting the value of everyone else's, you're compromising your integrity by lying about what you get out of it, and both personifying and perpetuating what's wrong with this process.

I swear some people are cynical, jaded, and bitter beyond belief. Who wants a doctor like that? Who wants a med student like that?

 

[Planes2Doc]

Anyway...I don't like how people automatically discount people for not volunteering stuff such as longevity, hours or even what type. I really hate how numbers are thrown around as the "average."

What exactly does a person do in a hospital that they need 150+ hours to realize what they got out of it? I'll never understand the admissions process.

Bingo. This is really frustrating. I've seen threads before where reapplicants were saying how they were told that they "did not volunteer enough" as premeds. Yet when they reapplied with more hours, they were admitted. So the first time around, the applicant was probably viewed as not being altruistic, yet the second time around they were magically saints. Gee whiz! This puts a new spin on those "I just got a DUI", "I was arrested", "I was caught cheating (not on a significant other)" threads. If people can suddenly go from selfish to saints within a year, then why not accept those people who committed crimes or academic dishonesty after one year?

So then who will do the low tier work? It has to be done for the higher ups to function properly in their work, it's about cooperation. If you want to be a "winner" ok, then don't ascribe responsibility to other people, don't help them, you will be "better" than them, and everyone will have a terrible life, including you, (not saying you have a terrible life).

I noticed something obvious when I volunteered at the first hospital I volunteered at. There were adult/elderly (no medical school ambitions) volunteers that took care of secretarial/administrative work, that often required training of the computer and phone systems. The premeds were left in the ED and other departments. Why were there no premeds performing administrative tasks? Because premeds are so unreliable! They have a horrible reputation. The adults/elderly volunteers, on the other hand, actually want to be there. Therefore, the premed being present will be a bonus to the department since the tasks will be completed by the low-level employees anyhow. I did menial tasks, and often the techs were on their phones or Facebook while I was forced to clean rooms. Had I not been there, the ED would not have been in complete chaos with hospital staff running like chickens with their heads cut off.

None of the patients ever asked you guys to wheel them to the gardens or etc? or you guys do any discharges? I don't know, but some of the most endearing experiences I had were with some of the patients I wheeled around. But idk, I'm sappy, if I can make a person smile or happier even when they're recovering, then I consider my day having been worthwhile.
That being said the majority of my experiences in the hospital are low key and uneventful. So I can see how for many volunteering is extremely boring. But, what can I say? Get lucky.

I've had a few nice moments. They are few and far between. The tens to hundreds of mundane hours in-between negate any positive effects they might have had.

Interviewer: So, what did you learn from your hospital volunteering?
Honest answer: Nothing
Actual answer: I shall never forget the tear in a young child's eye as his mother is wheeled into surgery. The helplessness... the fear... the dependence on the physicians art--itself so imprecise, so based on human frailty that nothing can be guaranteed...

and so on.

Once, just ONCE, I would like some interviewer to look for honesty and professionalism, rather than a interviewee that follows the exact script they want to hear.

Don't we all? This is exactly what's happening. I can hold a legitimate conversation about volunteering with people that have been doing it for years because they genuinely enjoy it. But why are ADCOMs not suspicious when someone goes from never having done a volunteer activity to suddenly having a whole laundry-list of them? 😕 👎

 

[amad01]

1) because that would require an entire year off for most people.
2) biology majors are clinical degrees. So congrats, you got a bachelors and now need a CNA or an RN.
3) because PA school was set up by army medics who didn't want to go to med school at their age, didn't want to be nurses, and wanted to remain in a medical field.
4) It'd be a giant clusterF**k and would limit the amount of applicants to medical school to the amount of open positions in the country. I.e imagine 100k students trying to get paid positions?

1) 2000/4=500hrs a year /52= 9.6 hours a week. Year off? I don't think so. Not to mention you wouldn't have to worry about xyz volunteer positions in the way.

2) Not all premeds are Bio majors. A CNA takes 3 weeks to get, even though there are many paid positions that only require CPR, which any respectable citizen should have anyways. I have an entry level tech job that pays $16/hr and all I have is CPR certification. For someone who is dedicated to medicine, a CNA shouldn't be that big of a loop hole. Not to mention it should be more desired than stocking bed sheets in ER rooms, and I don't even have a CNA.

3) So they should have more patient contact required than physicians? In an actual paid setting that actually requires them to put on gloves?

4) Where I live it already is like this. Every pre-med student applies for the orderly, tech, EMT jobs.


I guess if you have a paid hospital job, it's not necessary to volunteer in a hospital. It's probably better to go volunteer at whatever interests you.

 

[gettheleadout]

I noticed something obvious when I volunteered at the first hospital I volunteered at. There were adult/elderly (no medical school ambitions) volunteers that took care of secretarial/administrative work, that often required training of the computer and phone systems. The premeds were left in the ED and other departments. Why were there no premeds performing administrative tasks? Because premeds are so unreliable! They have a horrible reputation. The adults/elderly volunteers, on the other hand, actually want to be there. Therefore, the premed being present will be a bonus to the department since the tasks will be completed by the low-level employees anyhow. I did menial tasks, and often the techs were on their phones or Facebook while I was forced to clean rooms. Had I not been there, the ED would not have been in complete chaos with hospital staff running like chickens with their heads cut off.

I TOTALLY disagree, and I think you're making a ton of assumptions here. How about: The hospital knows premeds are interested in volunteering as a way of gaining exposure to patients/the system/doctors/etc.? The premeds themselves decline positions in non-clinical areas or work because they themselves aren't interested in doing volunteer work at a hospital that they could do elsewhere, i.e. they're at a hospital because they want volunteer opportunities only a hospital can provide? The adults and elderly aren't as comfortable around patients/blood/whatever and still appreciate health professionals and find volunteering in any way they're comfortable and able to be fulfilling, thus volunteering in non-clinical settings in a hospital? Maybe some premed volunteers aren't relegated to the menial tasks you did and actually fulfilled a role in helping provide patients with comfort? Maybe your experience isn't generalizable to everyone else?

 

[MD22412]

😕 No one's feeling superior here. So tell me. If you have to describe your experiences as a volunteer and all you did was essentially bed cleaning/filing/shelving etc., would you say I had the passion to do all these stuff because I'm being cooperative?

I Ustinov go into story mode about something I learned, how the experience with said patient/task led me to said emotion, thought and then how I'm trying to better myself (with specificity) for the future.

 

[Planes2Doc]

I TOTALLY disagree, and I think you're making a ton of assumptions here. How about: The hospital knows premeds are interested in volunteering as a way of gaining exposure to patients/the system/doctors/etc.? The premeds themselves decline positions in non-clinical areas or work because they themselves aren't interested in doing volunteer work at a hospital that they could do elsewhere, i.e. they're at a hospital because they want volunteer opportunities only a hospital can provide? The adults and elderly aren't as comfortable around patients/blood/whatever and still appreciate health professionals and find volunteering in any way they're comfortable and able to be fulfilling, thus volunteering in non-clinical settings in a hospital? Maybe some premed volunteers aren't relegated to the menial tasks you did and actually fulfilled a role in helping provide patients with comfort? Maybe your experience isn't generalizable to everyone else?

Yeah what you say makes perfect sense. I haven't had the chance to rotate through any hospitals yet (only an MS-1), but I talked to some people who have been through hospitals and what not. I also have a friend who is a resident. I asked him about the volunteers at his hospital. He said there is no way in hell they would assign premeds to trained positions where the hospital is reliant on them. I think we can generally agree that the elderly/adult volunteers will probably be more reliable than typical premeds. Even if premeds aren't gaming the system, I can still imagine a lot will sneak in study materials or take time off suddenly if they have big exams coming up.

 

[gettheleadout]

1) 2000/4=500hrs a year /52= 9.6 hours a week. Year off? I don't think so. Not to mention you wouldn't have to worry about xyz volunteer positions in the way.

2) Not all premeds are Bio majors. A CNA takes 3 weeks to get, even though there are many paid positions that only require CPR, which any respectable citizen should have anyways. I have an entry level tech job that pays $16/hr and all I have is CPR certification. For someone who is dedicated to medicine, a CNA shouldn't be that big of a loop hole. Not to mention it should be more desired than stocking bed sheets in ER rooms, and I don't even have a CNA.

3) So they should have more patient contact required than physicians? In an actual paid setting that actually requires them to put on gloves?

4) Where I live it already is like this. Every pre-med student applies for the orderly, tech, EMT jobs.


I guess if you have a paid hospital job, it's not necessary to volunteer in a hospital. It's probably better to go volunteer at whatever interests you.

The simple answer is that it isn't worth it. The primary distinguishing factor between med students and students that enter other health professions is academic ability and potential. Medicine requires that students be of the highest (relative) caliber intellectually and/or in terms of work ethic, because the competent learning and practice of medicine is challenging. The primary concern isn't with experience in the field. Thousands of hours of clinical employment? So much experience in a role that physicians will not play, for what purpose? A much shorter exposure to the clinical setting in general suffices to help premeds determine whether medicine is appropriate for them and their comfort level, and as it is this is fulfilled in various ways, via both employment and volunteering.

How about this, what's a good reason to require such extensive clinical employment from premeds?

 

[Planes2Doc]

The simple answer is that it isn't worth it. The primary distinguishing factor between med students and students that enter other health professions is academic ability and potential. Medicine requires that students be of the highest (relative) caliber intellectually and/or in terms of work ethic, because the competent learning and practice of medicine is challenging. The primary concern isn't with experience in the field. Thousands of hours of clinical employment? So much experience in a role that physicians will not play, for what purpose? A much shorter exposure to the clinical setting in general suffices to help premeds determine whether medicine is appropriate for them and their comfort level, and as it is this is fulfilled in various ways, via both employment and volunteering.

How about this, what's a good reason to require such extensive clinical employment from premeds?

Well said! Clinical employment will also require training and then a schedule that will be far less flexible than other types of part-time work, especially in the service industry. A lot of premeds also do these activities, so no one is blazing any new trails and making an ADCOM's head spin in amazement. There's no point investing so much time, possibly at the cost of grades and your social life, to become proficient in tasks that doctors will never do. I think pizza delivery also gave me more to talk about during interviews.

 

[gettheleadout]

Well said! Clinical employment will also require training and then a schedule that will be far less flexible than other types of part-time work, especially in the service industry. A lot of premeds also do these activities, so no one is blazing any new trails and making an ADCOM's head spin in amazement. There's no point investing so much time, possibly at the cost of grades and your social life, to become proficient in tasks that doctors will never do. I think pizza delivery also gave me more to talk about during interviews.

No lie, if I were an interviewer I would love to hear some interesting stories from a pizza delivery guy/gal!

 

[amad01]

The simple answer is that it isn't worth it. The primary distinguishing factor between med students and students that enter other health professions is academic ability and potential. Medicine requires that students be of the highest (relative) caliber intellectually and/or in terms of work ethic, because the competent learning and practice of medicine is challenging. The primary concern isn't with experience in the field. Thousands of hours of clinical employment? So much experience in a role that physicians will not play, for what purpose? A much shorter exposure to the clinical setting in general suffices to help premeds determine whether medicine is appropriate for them and their comfort level, and as it is this is fulfilled in various ways, via both employment and volunteering.

How about this, what's a good reason to require such extensive clinical employment from premeds?

I agree extensive clinical employment from premeds wouldn't be necessary. The point I'm trying to make is that adcoms push for volunteering when much better exposure and experience IMO can be obtained through paid positions... working with doctors and patients rather than simply watching others work with them. Just gotta play the game I guess.

 

[drshark]

I've been volunteering at a hospital for almost a year now with around 150 hours but i'm scared to quit because of what the ADCOMS would think lol will me having 250 hours really look that much better than 150? idk but i'm not willing to risk it right now

 

[gettheleadout]

I've been volunteering at a hospital for almost a year now with around 150 hours but i'm scared to quit because of what the ADCOMS would think lol will me having 250 hours really look that much better than 150? idk but i'm not willing to risk it right now

You've been there for a year and have 150 hours, just quit if you want to.

 

[sunflower18]

My frustration with this whole process is that there ARE people putting on an act to make it seem like they enjoyed their experiences when they didn't, for whatever reason -- and that makes the people who actually enjoyed their experiences look like scripted liars and cookie cutters too. I personally have absolutely loved volunteering in a hospital (it has been life-changing and ambition-renewing and awe-inspiring and all of the other things applicants are supposed to say, but for real), and loved my non clinical volunteering as well. I will stop my hospital volunteering once I start med school, but I hope to resume volunteering in a hospital or medical institution once I retire from being a doctor. I also hope to continue non-clinical volunteering through my lifetime. But that all sounds like BS, because saying those things is practically required, as you all were pointing out.

It's frustrating. Some people feel that their time was wasted because they had to spend many many hours volunteering, and others feel that their experiences aren't looked at as seriously because they are dime-a-dozen.

 

[Stumpyman]

OP- you're lacking a clear difference between clinical and non-clinical volunteering. Clinical may be partially flawed, as you're right, a lot of people do it just for hours (while still a good amount of them don't). Non-clinical is usually based off of interest, and that means volunteer organizations don't get hurt (they usually need people pretty desperately anyways).

 

[wholeheartedly]

I also hope to continue non-clinical volunteering through my lifetime. But that all sounds like BS, because saying those things is practically required, as you all were pointing out.

It's frustrating. Some people feel that their time was wasted because they had to spend many many hours volunteering, and others feel that their experiences aren't looked at as seriously because they are dime-a-dozen.

Totally agree with you here.

One thing to keep in mind is that just because You don't feel like you're learning anything valuable, or that you didn't already know, doesn't mean everyone else isn't benefitting either.

Case(s) in point. I was reading a med student blog and in several posts the blogger commented on how those "communicating" with patients seemed like a total waste of time because it was pretty common sense stuff. Flash forward a few months and that blogger was the patient and the resident examining her had terrible communication skills. All of a sudden she decided that maybe those classes weren't such a waste after all as some people obviously did need to develop those skills. I work in a teaching hospital, this is very, very true and the degree to which the residents differ in their ability to talk to patients and work with other staff members has been really surprising.

In my case, I volunteer at a student run free clinic and some students are awesome interviewing patients and others are absolutely painful to watch in their interactions with patients, but getting better with practice.

So maybe you have it down, others are still learning. There are tangible benefits from volunteering, especially if you're actively trying to learn all you can and maximize the experience.

That said, there is definitely too much phony, gaming the system nonsense going on.

Even if volunteering wasn't a requirement, some people would still do it, and those people would probably have an edge with admissions, so by default other people would do it anyway to be competitive.

 

[circulus vitios]

The simple answer is that it isn't worth it. The primary distinguishing factor between med students and students that enter other health professions is academic ability and potential. Medicine requires that students be of the highest (relative) caliber intellectually and/or in terms of work ethic, because the competent learning and practice of medicine is challenging. The primary concern isn't with experience in the field. Thousands of hours of clinical employment? So much experience in a role that physicians will not play, for what purpose? A much shorter exposure to the clinical setting in general suffices to help premeds determine whether medicine is appropriate for them and their comfort level, and as it is this is fulfilled in various ways, via both employment and volunteering.

How about this, what's a good reason to require such extensive clinical employment from premeds?

I did about 50 hours of hospital volunteering. I learned nothing about medicine. I learned much more about "real life" medicine in my ~60 hours of shadowing than I ever learned in volunteering.

 

[Anathema]

I did about 50 hours of hospital volunteering. I learned nothing about medicine. I learned much more about "real life" medicine in my ~60 hours of shadowing than I ever learned in volunteering.

Seriously, a lot of premeds have some idea that doctors are saving lives...and are leaders of a community...but most of my shadowing was filled with seeing them do paperwork and doing basic check ups and all that. It's not a glamorous job and clinical volunteering at a hospital does not set you up for it. It teaches you how to operate a wheelchair and know the passcodes for different parts of the hospital.

I'm not saying I don't enjoy my time with patients and the staff, but my interest definitely is finding a cutoff. Plus, its tough as hell to get a volunteering position at a college. It took months to get an orientation date and get documented.

 

[powerfetish]

Everybody that for some reason thinks volunteering is required of them and doesn't want to do it needs to NOT DO IT. You're wasting your own time and insulting the value of everyone else's, you're compromising your integrity by lying about what you get out of it, and both personifying and perpetuating what's wrong with this process.

I swear some people are cynical, jaded, and bitter beyond belief. Who wants a doctor like that? Who wants a med student like that?

Most doctors I know are cynical, jaded, and bitter beyond belief in reality. That is what med school and residency does to you. Also, all neurosurgeons believe they are God reincarnated. This is what medicine does to a person.

 

[gettheleadout]

Most doctors I know are cynical, jaded, and bitter beyond belief in reality. That is what med school and residency does to you. Also, all neurosurgeons believe they are God reincarnated. This is what medicine does to a person.

I like how you generalize about "what med school and residency does to you." Give me a break.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN Mobile

 

[487806]

Most doctors I know are cynical, jaded, and bitter beyond belief in reality. That is what med school and residency does to you. Also, all neurosurgeons believe they are God reincarnated. This is what medicine does to a person.

Thanks for telling us something that is not even relevant to the discussion. Keep up the good work for other threads, as you always have done. 🙄

GTLO, thanks for providing a better, optimistic outlook in volunteering. That helps destroy the common pessimism that I fell victim to. 👍

 

[Planes2Doc]

My frustration with this whole process is that there ARE people putting on an act to make it seem like they enjoyed their experiences when they didn't, for whatever reason -- and that makes the people who actually enjoyed their experiences look like scripted liars and cookie cutters too. I personally have absolutely loved volunteering in a hospital (it has been life-changing and ambition-renewing and awe-inspiring and all of the other things applicants are supposed to say, but for real), and loved my non clinical volunteering as well. I will stop my hospital volunteering once I start med school, but I hope to resume volunteering in a hospital or medical institution once I retire from being a doctor. I also hope to continue non-clinical volunteering through my lifetime. But that all sounds like BS, because saying those things is practically required, as you all were pointing out.

It's frustrating. Some people feel that their time was wasted because they had to spend many many hours volunteering, and others feel that their experiences aren't looked at as seriously because they are dime-a-dozen.

I think this is probably how a lot of people feel... Especially on both sides. I remember reading a recent thread where an SDN member was asking for opinions on their volunteer experience. They said something in the lines of "this is actually a good experience, since I am not doing it just to put on my application." I'm not a mean person, and this was the only thing that kept me from posting an extremely sarcastic response along the lines of: "Oh my gosh! Really?! Stop the presses!!! You volunteered because you wanted to! Now every medical school is going to be rushing over to get you admitted!" Yes, because I'm sure everyone that did it for the sake of applications will actually admit that they did. 🙄

This is why I never quite understand when someone categorizes their ECs as "good" or "excellent" here on SDN. You've seen everything a million times over. But why would someone actually say that their volunteering at a free clinic was "superior" to someone's volunteering in a hospital ED? If I said this to the people back at my company, I would have sounded like a complete *****. Yet this is happening day in and day out on SDN.

OP- you're lacking a clear difference between clinical and non-clinical volunteering. Clinical may be partially flawed, as you're right, a lot of people do it just for hours (while still a good amount of them don't). Non-clinical is usually based off of interest, and that means volunteer organizations don't get hurt (they usually need people pretty desperately anyways).

I think you've given in to the assumption that "everyone volunteers." That is a huge problem, my friend. When I worked at my company, the one guy that pursued multiple volunteer activities because he wanted to always surprised people. They usually had responses like, "Wow! You do all that?! You're such a wonderful person!" But on the contrary, in medical school. You usually walk up to someone and ask, "So where did you volunteer?" You already assume it. Someone once told me they didn't volunteer at all. I thought they were joking. See the difference?

Lacking a clear difference would be if I were to say "volunteering sucks." And I never actually said that. I think your perspective might be flawed and here's why. For example, I absolutely love animals. That means that my interest may be aligned with volunteering at an animal shelter. Therefore, in the medical admissions world, you would have assumed that I would have already spent a considerable amount of time volunteering in an animal shelter. But in the real world, someone may not have volunteered at the animal shelter for numerous reasons. Maybe this person would rather: sleep, do homework, study, spend time with family, spend time with friends, play video games, work out, play basketball, do nothing, or any other reason that they would rather do than volunteer at animal shelter. This doesn't mean the person hates animals or hates volunteering. It just means that there are things they would rather do in place of volunteering...

And how does this hurt the organizations exactly? Even though it might sound a little too far-fetched to say that these people are wearing orange jumpsuits and chains, but this is kind of what happens when people feel the need to do things because of medical school admissions. Even though someone might like animals and is volunteering at an animal shelter because of medical school admissions (would rather be doing something else with their time), their attitude will be vastly different than someone who is volunteering at the animal shelter because they actually want to do this (would rather not be doing anything else at that time). Have you ever been "dragged out" to do an otherwise enjoyable activity with someone when you would have rather been doing another enjoyable activity? The attitude will show, and this is how organizations might be hurt. Someone will half-ass things or show their disdain if they are doing something when they would have much rather been doing something else (like sleep at 8AM), even if they technically have an "interest" in it.

 

[GopherMD]

Most doctors I know are cynical, jaded, and bitter beyond belief in reality. That is what med school and residency does to you. Also, all neurosurgeons believe they are God reincarnated. This is what medicine does to a person.

And the physicians I work with are happy most days and love being a physician. I have also yet to meet a neurosurgeon that has a God complex....don't generalize medicine/medical school/residency based solely on your "observations"

 

[Mornhavon]

.

 

[Planes2Doc]

Volunteering has nothing to do with anyone caring what a great kind caring person you are. No one really cares about that. If you are going to be a competent physician your grades/clinical evaluations will show that.

No, it's simply the result of the academic arms race. At one point long ago all you needed to get into medicine was like a 25 on the MCAT, some money, and a pulse. Over time, more people saw what a great gig medicine was , great salary, lots of respect. Who wouldn't want a piece of that?

Industrialization got rid of all those stupid ass jobs where you could twist the cap onto the toothpaste tube and be able to support a family.
So then everyone MUST GO TO COLLEGE!, and of course there's nothing you can do, really, with a biology degree, except commit suicide. So everyone applies to medical school.

Now, admissions committees are faced with a billion applicants. Of course, one smart fellow said "The kids who spent some time volunteering in a hopsital or nursing home- those are the kids we want!" At some point, people began to realize being a goody-two shoe who spends their weekends wiping ass had become a selection factor.

Once the word was out, every machiavellian bastard with their heart set on the pot of gold that is the healthcare dollar and the bikini clad bishes that go with it, rushed out with their newfound knowledge, and began volunteering as much as possible.

Now, in our present condition, every cycle requires more and more asskissing free volunteer work, because of this arms race for applicants to get a leg up on each other. In what world do you call up a hospital, offer free labor, and they tell you "We'll get back to you, we're full right now" ? (This actually happened to me).

This state of affairs is pretty f*cked up, for many different reasons.
See: pre-med "reputation" for excellence (LOL)
See: forcing kids to grind out their free hours to have a chance at a decent career
See: Actually selecting for the kids that are the douchiest try hards with no life
See: Destroying paid employment opportunities for EMTs and CNAs who aren't pre-meds

I always lol quietly whenever someone on here talks about how much their volunteering means to them, how deep their feelings are...seriously, chances are you're just rationalizing to yourself the situation so you don't feel enraged about all the wasted hours.

BTW: To those of you who volunteer because you really are altruistic and lovely people- you are great, please keep being awesome.

Yeah it has pretty much become an arms race. There was a thread recently saying how decades ago, you just sent in an application with good enough numbers, and were accepted. Oh how things have changed!

I think that the extreme volunteering/ECs RPG is peaking. It's gotten to the point where either everything looks like the same old crap among premeds, yet this stuff would look absolutely amazing amongst the general population. A few years ago mission trips must have looked really good. Now they can completely backfire on you and make it look like you're just, *gasp* doing things for the sake of your application! It looks like a new but expensive fad is starting non-profit organizations. With a few grand, you can make something look legit. It can look even more legit if you have rich parents donate $10k or more. At some point, ADCOMs will catch onto these so-called non-profits just like they did with mission trips... Someone once asked, what volunteer activity/EC would make them look best? Well, if we really knew, then everyone would flock to it until it looks like nothing special.

What you said in the very end struck me... There are still people who genuinely enjoy volunteering and giving back to society. Unfortunately, they are being drowned out by the mass quantities of premeds that are doing the same activities or one-upping them with a longer laundry list.

I would especially feel bad for someone who was not too familiar with the admissions process, but found something they genuinely enjoyed a few months before applying. It would probably work against them, because they would just be a "box-checker." Yet, someone who was smart, knew the process well, and started volunteering as a freshman would probably come off as a saint. This is based on the notion that ADCOMs like to see longevity.

Longevity = Saint
Starting activity months before applying = Heartless "box-checker" 🙁

 

[circulus vitios]

At some point, ADCOMs will catch onto these so-called non-profits just like they did with mission trips...

I doubt it. The volunteering arms race has been going on for over a decade and the admissions committee members are still willfully ignorant of reality.

 

[Planes2Doc]

I doubt it. The volunteering arms race has been going on for over a decade and the admissions committee members are still willfully ignorant of reality.

Well I meant the "silver bullet" activities that are a shoe-in for the applicant. Mission trips are quite expensive, and in their infancy of being used for applications, I'm sure that most applicants couldn't afford to shell out the money to go on them. But in their infancy, I am guessing that they were very effective in having a strong positive influence on the premed's application.

I remember in a past thread where music2doc, who has a more optimistic view on ECs, was saying how he knew someone who started a non-profit, and she was viewed very highly by top schools and ended up getting into a top school (if I remember correctly). If you have thousands of dollars to spend, you can pretty easily set up a legitimate looking organization with minimal effort on your part. I'm sure this looks absolutely fantastic now in the eyes of ADCOMs, but as more people catch on, it will start to look like every other activity done by premeds. Or like mission trips, it will probably look like resume padding, and a lot of non-profits will suddenly start to do more harm than good for the applicant.

But generally speaking, I agree with what you said. Either ADCOMs are ignorant, or they don't want to open Pandora's Box by admitting that they know a majority of applicants are probably full of $h!t. Do you have any idea what kind of ramifications that might have? To all of a sudden say that something they value so highly, and that applicants make such great sacrifices for, is just a big farce? 😱 😕

If there was more oversight or the activity list was extended through high school, I believe many positive changes would take place in the volunteering arms race.

 

[circulus vitios]

If there was more oversight or the activity list was extended through high school, I believe many positive changes would take place in the volunteering arms race.

Maybe a bit earlier than that. High school students are now volunteering to pad their college applications at competitive colleges.

 

[Mornhavon]

.

 

[Planes2Doc]

Maybe a bit earlier than that. High school students are now volunteering to pad their college applications at competitive colleges.

LOL. Guilty as charged! It's actually pretty obvious when this takes place. A good portion of high school is spent enjoying yourself. Then suddenly junior year, everything becomes about college! This is when I picked up a volunteering activity, since in terms of undergraduate admissions, it actually does make you look better. I think this would still be pretty easy to pick up by ADCOMs.

 

[notbobtrustme]

I doubt it. The volunteering arms race has been going on for over a decade and the admissions committee members are still willfully ignorant of reality.

I don't think that's the case, I think it simply has become the status quo. Everyone knows its a giant song and dance ritual. You say what the adcoms want to hear and in turn, they expect to hear those things. Everyone plays it and no one wants to call the system out on it's bull**** because then you are "destroying the integrity of the process" or some bull**** like that.

 

[Planes2Doc]

I don't think that's the case, I think it simply has become the status quo. Everyone knows its a giant song and dance ritual. You say what the adcoms want to hear and in turn, they expect to hear those things. Everyone plays it and no one wants to call the system out on it's bull**** because then you are "destroying the integrity of the process" or some bull**** like that.

Exactly. I don't think anyone realizes the damage that this can do... Imagine how someone who did a laundry-list full of activities and accumulated over 1000+ hours of volunteering would feel if ADCOMs admitted that they knew there are people who are clearly BSing the system.

It's kind of crazy that you can have two people sitting next to each other in the same medical school class, where one may have done 100-150 hours of volunteering in a local ED, and then the person next to them did 1000+ hours over a laundry-list full of activities that they technically did against their will.

 

[circulus vitios]

Exactly. I don't think anyone realizes the damage that this can do... Imagine how someone who did a laundry-list full of activities and accumulated over 1000+ hours of volunteering would feel if ADCOMs admitted that they knew there are people who are clearly BSing the system.

It's kind of crazy that you can have two people sitting next to each other in the same medical school class, where one may have done 100-150 hours of volunteering in a local ED, and then the person next to them did 1000+ hours over a laundry-list full of activities that they technically did against their will.

I think the more important issue is why do we need to volunteer, or why do we need to be "altruistic", to be good doctors.