More Women Than Men Enrolled in U.S. Medical Schools in 2017

[VA Hopeful Dr]

You might think, but dig up numbers on current attendings on for example surgeons, urologists, plastic surgeons - any surgical specialty for that matter, and you'll find the percentage of males outweighs females in those fields in larger proportions than the class ratios of Males/Females for those graduating classes, with the exception of OBGYN. Males even in those years had traditionally gone into OBGYN in less than average proportions than female counterparts graduating.

My experience might not be universal, but I am a resident in the field, have a large number of colleagues who are male as well and believe the data supports a open field for men to have excellent careers in OBGYN on average rivaling or surpassing those of female colleagues in the same field. Your argument from a wifes/friends/associates experience is not exactly a solid case study either, which is why I brought in good data.

The plural of anecdote is not data.

You brought no data, just more anecdotes than I did.

And if we're going to play that game, my father-in-law has been an OB for 40 years and he has noticed the same trends that I have.

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[puahate]

The plural of anecdote is not data.

You brought no data, just more anecdotes than I did.

And if we're going to play that game, my father-in-law has been an OB for 40 years and he has noticed the same trends that I have.

Just like to add that there are posters here that are male OBs that stated the same thing

I'm a practicing OB/GYN. Male. Love my job. Love my patients. Very happy with my decision of specialy.

Do note, as a male, you will make less money than your female colleagues. In no way am I going hungry and as a free-market capitalist I don't have a problem with it, but just be prepared for that reality.

(How come OBGYN isn't receiving any love?)

It's the reality of the business now that females will prefer female providers on average. Nothing really you can do about it. Same goes for other professions. Women will tend to gravitate toward female GI docs for scopes etc.

If you enjoy the breadth of the field, go for it. But just be cognizant of the reality of the situation. Regardless of being a male or not, you should be able to make a decent living due to the procedural nature of the specialty.

If it's not something you want to deal with later in your career, make that choice now. It is completely understandable, but also a testament to how bright applicants are foregoing the specialty because of these ridiculous preferences from patients.

This is coming from a male OB resident.

(Male and interested in OB/Gyn: Experiences)

 

[sunshinefl]

I’m going to add to the anecdotes and say that I don’t care about OB/GYN gender as a patient, and my current gynecologist is male.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Just like to add that there are posters here that are male OBs that stated the same thing


(How come OBGYN isn't receiving any love?)



(Male and interested in OB/Gyn: Experiences)

Huh, its almost like I didn't just pull what I'm saying out of thin air...

 

[raiderette]

I’m going to add to the anecdotes and say that I don’t care about OB/GYN gender as a patient, and my current gynecologist is male.

Applying ob/gyn, will not see a male unless it was life threatening medical emergency.

 

[sunshinefl]

Applying ob/gyn, will not see a male unless it was life threatening medical emergency.

Cultural or Religious reason?

 

[karayaa]

Applying ob/gyn, will not see a male unless it was life threatening medical emergency.

It sounds like you would not see a male for quality of life problems like a prolapse, urinary incontinence, infertility, fibroids, endometriosis, is that right?
Do emergencies include having a high risk pregnancy, labor and delivery complications, or cancer treatment?
Have you seen a male provider in the past? Have you or friends/family had negative experiences? Do you mom/female relatives have a preferences for male or female providers? Obvi you don't need to have a negative experience to justify having a preference, I'm just curious about how your reached your opinion.

 

[puahate]

It sounds like you would not see a male for quality of life problems like a prolapse, urinary incontinence, infertility, fibroids, endometriosis, is that right?
Do emergencies include having a high risk pregnancy, labor and delivery complications, or cancer treatment?
Have you seen a male provider in the past? Have you or friends/family had negative experiences? Do you mom/female relatives have a preferences for male or female providers? Obvi you don't need to have a negative experience to justify having a preference, I'm just curious about how your reached your opinion.

Either way it's kinda a financial shot in the foot to go into OB as a male

 

[raiderette]

It sounds like you would not see a male for quality of life problems like a prolapse, urinary incontinence, infertility, fibroids, endometriosis, is that right?
Do emergencies include having a high risk pregnancy, labor and delivery complications, or cancer treatment?
Have you seen a male provider in the past? Have you or friends/family had negative experiences? Do you mom/female relatives have a preferences for male or female providers? Obvi you don't need to have a negative experience to justify having a preference, I'm just curious about how your reached your opinion.

I have seen two male providers. My endometriosis was dismissed, my mother's ovarian cancer was misdiagnosed. I am a med student; I understand that there are good and bad doctors, but my family hasn't had a good male gyn. My grandma was ignored when she had an ectopic pregnancy until she went to the ER. My mom was misdiagnosed, and told to take Midol. She almost died. I was told that sometimes periods hurt. Three male doctors, three states. I started volunteering at PP as a teen after they helped me. I learned to listen to patients when they are in pain. But I can choose the gender of my physician, and I do. Most women of child-bearing years see their gyn more than their GP. I intend to listen to them all.

 

[uname943]

So yo

I have seen two male providers. My endometriosis was dismissed, my mother's ovarian cancer was misdiagnosed. I am a med student; I understand that there are good and bad doctors, but my family hasn't had a good male gyn. My grandma was ignored when she had an ectopic pregnancy until she went to the ER. My mom was misdiagnosed, and told to take Midol. She almost died. I was told that sometimes periods hurt. Three male doctors, three states. I started volunteering at PP as a teen after they helped me. I learned to listen to patients when they are in pain. But I can choose the gender of my physician, and I do. Most women of child-bearing years see their gyn more than their GP. I intend to listen to them all.

So you are basing your sexual discrimation on 3 anecdores? All other male obgyns are not worthy of you because of how they were born?

 

[puahate]

So yo

So you are basing your sexual discrimation on 3 anecdores? All other male obgyns are not worthy of you because of how they were born?

Be careful, usually this is labeled as "mansplaining" in 2018.

 

[uname943]

Be careful, usually this is labeled as "mansplaining" in 2018.

I didn't explain anything. It was questioning and clarification.

 

[puahate]

I didn't explain anything. It was Socratic questioning.

in 2018, it really doesn't even matter. I just want to caution you because anyone interested on OB and has those strong opinions will latch out.

 

[DocWinter]

Huh, its almost like I didn't just pull what I'm saying out of thin air...

You still have brought nothing but hearsay and opinion. Show some data to back it up. Polling your wife and father in law and selecting SDN messages to fit your narrative is not providing any convincingly arguments either, if that’s your point against my argument.

To bring it back to baseline; males can have excellent careers in OBGYN and should not be discouraged from pursuing the field. I doubt we’ll find hard evidence as anecdotes seem hard to keep out of this sort of topic, but you should find this article interesting. Males actually make more in the field, and of several studies doneShow roughly 50% of patients Would be happy to see a male OB/GYN in this first article. The second one shows data that supports nearly 2/3 of patients will be very comfortable with a male OB/GYN.

ObGyn salaries jumped in the last year

Do Women Prefer Care From Female or Male Obstetrician-Gynecologists? A Study of Patient Gender Preference | The Journal of the American Osteopathic Association

I would be more than happy to read anything you can find that’s able to support your argument from a statistical standpoint.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

So yo

So you are basing your sexual discrimation on 3 anecdores? All other male obgyns are not worthy of you because of how they were born?

Preference is not equal to discrimination/sexism. The latter is a deep-seated issue in which someone automatically assumes all members of a certain group are bad. This person had three actual bad experiences with male obgyns—that’s enough to form an opinion, and make someone seek another type of provider who can relate better to their experiences.



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[uname943]

Preference is not equal to discrimination/sexism. The latter is a deep-seated issue in which someone automatically assumes all members of a certain group are bad. This person had three actual bad experiences with male obgyns—that’s enough to form an opinion, and make someone seek another type of provider who can relate better to their experiences.



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True, preference does not always translate to discrimination. I could prefer older physicians, but could still accept whomever is assigned to me. In this case, her preference turned into discrimination against male obgyns. I would say that her objection to male obgyns is deep seated, as she wouldn't consider them outside of an emergency.

 

[uname943]

Perhaps we should be considering what experiences patients may have had that made them hesitant to be seen by male doctors, and how we as physicians/students can ameliorate those issues, rather than condemning the patients who feel that way.

Or both? That is what M&Ms and board complaints are for. Two wrongs don't make a right.

You could also argue that the sexual discrimination is intentional while the medical misdeeds are generally not.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Preference is not equal to discrimination/sexism. The latter is a deep-seated issue in which someone automatically assumes all members of a certain group are bad. This person had three actual bad experiences with male obgyns—that’s enough to form an opinion, and make someone seek another type of provider who can relate better to their experiences.



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Is it okay for me to prefer not to see a female physician because two of my daughters’ pediatricians were women and who were terrible and constantly gave us bad advice and misdiagnosed things, and the EM doc who ignored our history and misdiagnosed my kid’s broken wrist as a pulled muscle which caused her to walk around with a broken wrist for a week was also female? Serious question, because it seems like basing my opinion of every female physician on those three anecdotes would be seen as a little sexist.

 

[puahate]

Is it okay for me to prefer not to see a female physician because two of my daughters’ pediatricians were women and who were terrible and constantly gave us bad advice and misdiagnosed things, and the EM doc who ignored our history and misdiagnosed my kid’s broken wrist as a pulled muscle which caused her to walk around with a broken wrist for a week was also female? Serious question, because it seems like basing my opinion of every female physician on those three anecdotes would be seen as a little sexist.

Let us not forget that it is not all to common for a patient to reject a black doctor. Which is actually an issue faced by physicians of color. Are these patients justified as well? Even if a brown or black doctor made a mistake is that fair for a patient to judge based on that?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

They didn't question my competence or ability to provide care, it was just a comfort thing. And that was fine with me.

We always have at least one female medical provider on the ship for exactly that reason. I’m happy to let the women handle the women when they are more comfortable with that. It’s about the patient, not me.

 

[uname943]

In my experience, the women I know who strongly prefer female providers are more concerned about comfort than competence. I think that's a pretty big difference - somebody in a community that has historically faced abuses that affect culture/behavior feeling more comfortable with someone who is like them, and someone like the woman above who believes that non-white doctors are inherently less competent just because of the color of their skin.

Some of the women I know who prefer female doctors have been sexually assaulted or harassed and have a negative (but involuntary) reaction to being put in a vulnerable position with any male, doctor or not. They recognize that it's not logical, but if somebody's sticking a speculum in you it's pretty easy for logic to go out the window. For the other women, I think the issue is the power differential that gender adds to a relationship that already has a large power imbalance. I'd argue that's a similar issue for many people of color.

As a woman, I've been kicked out of the room for sensitive exams on male patients because of my gender as well (one of them said "because Mr. Happy has never seen a woman before" LOL). They didn't question my competence or ability to provide care, it was just a comfort thing. And that was fine with me.

Sure, people can feel a certain way. We all have our biases. But choosing to act on the bias and discriminate is on another level.

 

[NecFasc92]

Can I be the first person to say that I ****ing hate when colleagues call other physicians/ future physicians "providers." You guys sound just like the greedy admin drowning you in debt and obliterating your role, all in the name of "patient care." Last time I checked you're in medical school not "provider" school. Nut up.

Nauseating.

 

[WingedOx]

Can I be the first person to say that I ****ing hate when colleagues call other physicians/ future physicians "providers."

No, actually, you can't be.

 

[uname943]

I guess I don't agree with calling a level of comfort a bias (in some cases it may be, but it's not always). It seems to me that the scenarios I listed have more to do with the experiences of the patient than the competence or personality of the physicians.

"Comfort Biases - we avoid situations and information that may bring anxiety, worry, difficulty or uncertainty."

http://training.hr.ufl.edu/resources/LeadershipToolkit/job_aids/JudgmentJobAid_IMA_MAY2014FINAL.pdf

 

[Robin-jay]

I have seen two male providers. My endometriosis was dismissed, my mother's ovarian cancer was misdiagnosed. I am a med student; I understand that there are good and bad doctors, but my family hasn't had a good male gyn. My grandma was ignored when she had an ectopic pregnancy until she went to the ER. My mom was misdiagnosed, and told to take Midol. She almost died. I was told that sometimes periods hurt. Three male doctors, three states. I started volunteering at PP as a teen after they helped me. I learned to listen to patients when they are in pain. But I can choose the gender of my physician, and I do. Most women of child-bearing years see their gyn more than their GP. I intend to listen to them all.

Preference is not equal to discrimination/sexism. The latter is a deep-seated issue in which someone automatically assumes all members of a certain group are bad. This person had three actual bad experiences with male obgyns—that’s enough to form an opinion, and make someone seek another type of provider who can relate better to their experiences.

We always have at least one female medical provider on the ship for exactly that reason. I’m happy to let the women handle the women when they are more comfortable with that. It’s about the patient, not me.

Preferences vs. Sexism seems to be the big thing here.

Here is the problem with the OP. She is deeming male OBYGNs as "incompetent". This is why its sexist, and not a preference.

When you date someone, its ok to have a preference, but to say a certain ethnicity, etc. can't make a good mate would be more racist.

If the OP said that male OBGYNs are as competent as female OBGYNs, but prefers women due to a bit more comfort, then that's a preference. However, she basically said she doesn't think they're competent, which is sexist.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

You still have brought nothing but hearsay and opinion. Show some data to back it up. Polling your wife and father in law and selecting SDN messages to fit your narrative is not providing any convincingly arguments either, if that’s your point against my argument.

To bring it back to baseline; males can have excellent careers in OBGYN and should not be discouraged from pursuing the field. I doubt we’ll find hard evidence as anecdotes seem hard to keep out of this sort of topic, but you should find this article interesting. Males actually make more in the field, and of several studies doneShow roughly 50% of patients Would be happy to see a male OB/GYN in this first article. The second one shows data that supports nearly 2/3 of patients will be very comfortable with a male OB/GYN.

ObGyn salaries jumped in the last year

Do Women Prefer Care From Female or Male Obstetrician-Gynecologists? A Study of Patient Gender Preference | The Journal of the American Osteopathic Association

I would be more than happy to read anything you can find that’s able to support your argument from a statistical standpoint.

See, that's what data actually looks like. I mean, its not good data but its a start.

Let's address the patient gender part. You have found one article with a N of 264. From 13 years ago. In a DO journal (not saying that's bad, merely that I know nothing about it) that isn't directly OB/GYN related.

Now let's look at what I've found:

Gender Preference of the Obstetrician Gynecologist... : Obstetrics & Gynecology

Well lookie here. Its a systemic review. Published in the main OB/GYN journal. 2 years ago. With an N of just under 15,000

So I feel pretty good saying that there is a large gender preference in OB/GYN patients.

Not sure what salary has to do with the argument I was making. Perhaps you could explain that one to me.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Is it okay for me to prefer not to see a female physician because two of my daughters’ pediatricians were women and who were terrible and constantly gave us bad advice and misdiagnosed things, and the EM doc who ignored our history and misdiagnosed my kid’s broken wrist as a pulled muscle which caused her to walk around with a broken wrist for a week was also female? Serious question, because it seems like basing my opinion of every female physician on those three anecdotes would be seen as a little sexist.

Yes, that’s OK. You are the patient, you have every right to choose who will provide your care, for whatever reason you wish. I would ask to be treated by a physician for several reasons that have nothing to do with medicine, as is my right as a patient.


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[OrthoTraumaMD]

Preferences vs. Sexism seems to be the big thing here.

Here is the problem with the OP. She is deeming male OBYGNs as "incompetent". This is why its sexist, and not a preference.

When you date someone, its ok to have a preference, but to say a certain ethnicity, etc. can't make a good mate would be more racist.

If the OP said that male OBGYNs are as competent as female OBGYNs, but prefers women due to a bit more comfort, then that's a preference. However, she basically said she doesn't think they're competent, which is sexist.

Nowhere did she mention competence. She actually stated in her post that she recognizes there are good and bad doctors, and she prefers women due to her experience. No part of that statement is sexist.


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[Dr G Oogle]

See, that's what data actually looks like. I mean, its not good data but its a start.

Let's address the patient gender part. You have found one article with a N of 264. From 13 years ago. In a DO journal (not saying that's bad, merely that I know nothing about it) that isn't directly OB/GYN related.

Now let's look at what I've found:

Gender Preference of the Obstetrician Gynecologist... : Obstetrics & Gynecology

Well lookie here. Its a systemic review. Published in the main OB/GYN journal. 2 years ago. With an N of just under 15,000

So I feel pretty good saying that there is a large gender preference in OB/GYN patients.

Not sure what salary has to do with the argument I was making. Perhaps you could explain that one to me.

This is a decent data set, but it still shouldn’t disuade men from going into obgyn if they want to. The ratio of men to women in obgyn in the next 20 years will be between 20/80 to 10/90 which means that the above patient preferences is just perfect for the work force. Now the general kind of man that is typical in gen Surgery or ortho is probably not going to be successful in obgyn for the reasons stated in both studies above, the need for patients to feel comfort with their physicians which they may feel almost immediately with a female doc but a male will probably have to work at it. I’ve had many patients in my fellowship alone who’ve seen only female docs in the past and feel perfectly comfortable with me but only after one or two visits when I’ve had the opportunity to prove myself. Much like a female urologist might have to prove herself to a patient with prostate cancer. You don’t need the same anatomy to have competence.

It might take a man longer to get busy and they definitely have more of an onus to prove themselves as capable in obgyn to their patients but over the long course there is no discrepancy over the long term. The men who complain that it’s harder for them and they are at a disadvantage are frankly bitter and maybe don’t have what it takes.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

This is a decent data set, but it still shouldn’t disuade men from going into obgyn if they want to. The ratio of men to women in obgyn in the next 20 years will be between 20/80 to 10/90 which means that the above patient preferences is just perfect for the work force. Now the general kind of man that is typical in gen Surgery or ortho is probably not going to be successful in obgyn for the reasons stated in both studies above, the need for patients to feel comfort with their physicians which they may feel almost immediately with a female doc but a male will probably have to work at it. I’ve had many patients in my fellowship alone who’ve seen only female docs in the past and feel perfectly comfortable with me but only after one or two visits when I’ve had the opportunity to prove myself. Much like a female urologist might have to prove herself to a patient with prostate cancer. You don’t need the same anatomy to have competence.

It might take a man longer to get busy and they definitely have more of an onus to prove themselves as capable in obgyn to their patients but over the long course there is no discrepancy over the long term. The men who complain that it’s harder for them and they are at a disadvantage are frankly bitter and maybe don’t have what it takes.

Completely agree and it was never my intention to dissuade men from pursuing OB/GYN as a specialty. Just that they need to be aware of potential issues like the ones you mention.

 

[Cryc_to_the_point]

Does this mean we can get rid of the blatantly sexist/racist affirmative action policies that make it easier to get admitted when you're female and or a minority? That'd be great.

 

[DocWinter]

[QUOTE="VA Hopeful Dr, post: 20234418, member: 49331]

Gender Preference of the Obstetrician Gynecologist... : Obstetrics & Gynecology

Well lookie here. Its a systemic review. Published in the main OB/GYN journal. 2 years ago. With an N of just under 15,000

So I feel pretty good saying that there is a large gender preference in OB/GYN patients.

Not sure what salary has to do with the argument I was making. Perhaps you could explain that one to me.[/QUOTE]

So you pull the same article I cited as your basis? Dude (dudette?) did you not even open the link? I even gave you a heads up on the content and what to look for, but you didn't touch the damn thing, just made a bad attempt at condescension and enhanced my own point. You’re not even engaged enough to try. Since you didn’t open it I’ll let the secret out- roughly half of all pts are A-OK with a male physician, and the half that prefers a female simply prefers them. Looks to me like a pretty open door to practice.

To your question on salary, I’ll break it down.
If group A makes more money than group B for doing the exact same work but group A and B both get paid in the same dollar for procedure/visit/what have you, all being equal, how is this possible?

Group A might work more than group B. Kind of hard to fathom if you believe they cannot get enough work or won’t be in high demand. But nope, full schedules and doing just fine. I’m not making a direct correlation and certainly other factors would be argued as well, but I think we should invite a little logic here.

You’ve not brought any data. Stealing mine doesn’t count. Thank you for playing.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Yes, that’s OK. You are the patient, you have every right to choose who will provide your care, for whatever reason you wish. I would ask to be treated by a physician for several reasons that have nothing to do with medicine, as is my right as a patient.


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Fair enough. I actually agree with that, just wanted to see what you thought.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Nowhere did she mention competence. She actually stated in her post that she recognizes there are good and bad doctors, and she prefers women due to her experience. No part of that statement is sexist.


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If we’re talking about @raiderette she did say that she won’t see a male provider because one dismissed her endometriosis and one misdiagnosed an ovarian ca. That sounds like a competence issue to me.

That said, I really don’t believe in forcing patients to see any provider they don’t want to see, as the goal is to help the patient not the provider’s ego, even if I think making a sweeping judgement about all male physicians in a specialty based on two providers is dumb (and a logical fallacy actually). The exception is an emergency, which she already mentioned.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Does this mean we can get rid of the blatantly sexist/racist affirmative action policies that make it easier to get admitted when you're female and or a minority? That'd be great.

Eh. I don’t think they’re the same issue. Patients respond better to physicians that have similar ethnic/racial backgrounds (and gender). I do think AA is bull**** (at least the way it’s sometimes used to shoehorn in students with lower stats for the sake of diversity—striving for diversity is a great goal in and of itself), but we really need to do more to recruit exceptional female and minority applicants, and there needs to be more done about the discrepancy in opportunity for minority kids to go down the path in the first place. But I’m no expert so I’m not really sure how to do that.

 

[Dr G Oogle]

For what it’s worth, male physicians did have a tendency in the past to dismiss female concerns, the modern version of hysteria. I think there were a bunch of articles about that in terms of cardiac symptoms; because women don’t manifest cardiac disease in the same way as men, they were dismissed. If you start going down that path and calling it sexism, then you may as well call a Muslim man who does not want to see a female physician sexist, even though it is for a religious reason. It’s kind of a slippery slope. I just feel like the patient should be able to “discriminate“ in whichever way they wish because ultimately as was said, the goal is patient care, and whichever provider can provide that care most effectively for that particular patient.
When I was 19 I went for my first OB/GYN appointment with a well-known male physician in the area. My mom was in the room as well. The physician insisted on doing a speculum exam, even though I told him repeatedly that I was a virgin and had no symptoms of anything. He insisted he had to do one. He was pretty rough and when he started doing it, it was painful and terrifying, I ended the exam because I couldn’t tolerate it, and practically ran out of the office. In the back of my mind, I know I shouldn’t judge all male OB/GYNs that way, but there is something to be said about uniquely female concerns that men do not understand… I feel kind of the same way about urology....I’m curious to see how many men would not be comfortable with a female urologist.




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There is a similar breakdown of physician gender preference in urology (don’t have the paper at the tip of my fingertips), but anecdotally I prefer female docs across all specialties (even urology)

 

[puahate]

For what it’s worth, male physicians did have a tendency in the past to dismiss female concerns, the modern version of hysteria. I think there were a bunch of articles about that in terms of cardiac symptoms; because women don’t manifest cardiac disease in the same way as men, they were dismissed. If you start going down that path and calling it sexism, then you may as well call a Muslim man who does not want to see a female physician sexist, even though it is for a religious reason. It’s kind of a slippery slope. I just feel like the patient should be able to “discriminate“ in whichever way they wish because ultimately as was said, the goal is patient care, and whichever provider can provide that care most effectively for that particular patient.
When I was 19 I went for my first OB/GYN appointment with a well-known male physician in the area. My mom was in the room as well. The physician insisted on doing a speculum exam, even though I told him repeatedly that I was a virgin and had no symptoms of anything. He insisted he had to do one. He was pretty rough and when he started doing it, it was painful and terrifying, I ended the exam because I couldn’t tolerate it, and practically ran out of the office. In the back of my mind, I know I shouldn’t judge all male OB/GYNs that way, but there is something to be said about uniquely female concerns that men do not understand… I feel kind of the same way about urology....I’m curious to see how many men would not be comfortable with a female urologist.




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Personally don't want a female urologist. Definitely makes me uncomfortable

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

So you pull the same article I cited as your basis? Dude (dudette?) did you not even open the link? You’ve just enhanced my own point and shown me you’re not even engaged enough to try. Since you didn’t open it I’ll let the secret out- roughly half of all pts are A-OK with a male physician, and the half that prefers a female simply prefers them. Looks to me like a pretty open door to practice.

To your question on salary, I’ll break it down.
If group A makes more money than group B for doing the exact same work but group A and B both get paid in the same dollar for procedure/visit/what have you, all being equal, how is this possible?

Group A might work more than group B. Kind of hard to fathom if you believe they cannot get enough work or won’t be in high demand. But nope, full schedules and doing just fine. I’m not making a direct correlation but I think we should use a little logic here.

You’ve not brought any data. Stealing mine doesn’t count. Thank you for playing.

Are you high?

Here is the article you cited: Do Women Prefer Care From Female or Male Obstetrician-Gynecologists? A Study of Patient Gender Preference | The Journal of the American Osteopathic Association

Here's a screenshot of what happens when you click that link:

I literally copied the link directly from your post.

Its published in the Journal of American Osteopathic Association, in 2005. The full citation is this: The Journal of the American Osteopathic Association, August 2005, Vol. 105, 369-379.

This is the one I cited: Gender Preference of the Obstetrician Gynecologist... : Obstetrics & Gynecology

Its published in Obsterics and Gynecology, in 2016. Full citation: Obstetrics & Gynecology: May 2016

Here's what the link takes you to:

They are very obviously 2 separate articles. Now might the one I cited have included the one you cited in its review? Sure. But it goes beyond that as well. And they most certainly are not the same article. I'm legitimately curious why you think they are?

You're right, roughly half of women don't have a preference. But it means half does. That means if they have multiple options in doctors, they will choose a woman. Obviously if there are no women, the wait is too long, their insurance has only men in the network, or whatever that they might be OK with a guy. But it also means given a choice they will choose a female doctor. That's half of the patient population. Hardly insignificant, even allowing for factors like those I mentioned. Does it means there are unemployed male OB/GYNs out there? Of course not. Is it something that male medical students should be aware of? Absolutely. Pretty sure that was my only point.

As for the pay difference, it only factors in full time versus part time not actual hours worked. If we use the employed salaries, the male physicians would only have to work 8 more hours per week (assuming equal vacation time and whatnot) to make the hourly rate the same. But that's not even needed. Men in the article you posted spend less time with patients than women. This means they could easily see more patients/clinic day. In fact, if each male patient sees just 1 additional patient per day that makes up the difference in pay as well. Interestingly, ACOG's 2017 workforce report said "Any gender issues in compensation are caused largely by female ob-gyns desiring fewer work hours and weeks."

Oh, and something else.

Even though 80% of current residents are female, roughly 70% of current attendings are male. I think evidence shows there’s excellent opportunity for a male to pursue OB/GYN as a career

That's not true anymore. Accordingly to this: https://m.acog.org/~/media/BB3A7629943642ADA47058D0BDCD1521.pdf 58% of practicing OB/GYNs are female.

 

[DocWinter]

Are you high?

Here is the article you cited: Do Women Prefer Care From Female or Male Obstetrician-Gynecologists? A Study of Patient Gender Preference | The Journal of the American Osteopathic Association

Here's a screenshot of what happens when you click that link:

View attachment 238863

I literally copied the link directly from your post.

Its published in the Journal of American Osteopathic Association, in 2005. The full citation is this: The Journal of the American Osteopathic Association, August 2005, Vol. 105, 369-379.

This is the one I cited: Gender Preference of the Obstetrician Gynecologist... : Obstetrics & Gynecology

Its published in Obsterics and Gynecology, in 2016. Full citation: Obstetrics & Gynecology: May 2016

Here's what the link takes you to:

View attachment 238864

They are very obviously 2 separate articles. Now might the one I cited have included the one you cited in its review? Sure. But it goes beyond that as well. And they most certainly are not the same article. I'm legitimately curious why you think they are?

You're right, roughly half of women don't have a preference. But it means half does. That means if they have multiple options in doctors, they will choose a woman. Obviously if there are no women, the wait is too long, their insurance has only men in the network, or whatever that they might be OK with a guy. But it also means given a choice they will choose a female doctor. That's half of the patient population. Hardly insignificant, even allowing for factors like those I mentioned. Does it means there are unemployed male OB/GYNs out there? Of course not. Is it something that male medical students should be aware of? Absolutely. Pretty sure that was my only point.

As for the pay difference, it only factors in full time versus part time not actual hours worked. If we use the employed salaries, the male physicians would only have to work 8 more hours per week (assuming equal vacation time and whatnot) to make the hourly rate the same. But that's not even needed. Men in the article you posted spend less time with patients than women. This means they could easily see more patients/clinic day. In fact, if each male patient sees just 1 additional patient per day that makes up the difference in pay as well. Interestingly, ACOG's 2017 workforce report said "Any gender issues in compensation are caused largely by female ob-gyns desiring fewer work hours and weeks."

Oh, and something else.



That's not true anymore. Accordingly to this: https://m.acog.org/~/media/BB3A7629943642ADA47058D0BDCD1521.pdf 58% of practicing OB/GYNs are female.

I posted two articles. It’s obviously not the one you are referring to, it is the other one. Two links. Two different articles. I even specified it and told you what to look for.

You’re putting a lot of work into covering this up. I’m content with this. Hope we can agree on other topics in the future. Have a great day

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I posted two articles. It’s obviously not the one you are referring to, it is the other one. Two links. Two different articles. I even specified it and told you what to look for.

You’re putting a lot of work into covering this up. I’m content with this. Hope we can agree on other topics in the future. Have a great day

Ah, I see what you're saying now. A summary of it is at the bottom of your pay article. OK that was my screw up. Though it is interesting that it directly contradicts the other article you posted, but whatever.

Doesn't change what the data says about any of this. And that's the following:

Majority of women prefer female OB/GYNs (and interestingly, that majority is larger the more recent the studies are)

Pay difference is due to hours worked.

Majority of practicing OB/GYNs are women.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

(one of them said "because Mr. Happy has never seen a woman before" LOL)

Ya'll are bickering about this and I'm just over here dying to know if @cj_cregg was able to keep a straight face.....

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

For what it’s worth, male physicians did have a tendency in the past to dismiss female concerns, the modern version of hysteria. I think there were a bunch of articles about that in terms of cardiac symptoms; because women don’t manifest cardiac disease in the same way as men, they were dismissed. If you start going down that path and calling it sexism, then you may as well call a Muslim man who does not want to see a female physician sexist, even though it is for a religious reason. It’s kind of a slippery slope. I just feel like the patient should be able to “discriminate“ in whichever way they wish because ultimately as was said, the goal is patient care, and whichever provider can provide that care most effectively for that particular patient.
When I was 19 I went for my first OB/GYN appointment with a well-known male physician in the area. My mom was in the room as well. The physician insisted on doing a speculum exam, even though I told him repeatedly that I was a virgin and had no symptoms of anything. He insisted he had to do one. He was pretty rough and when he started doing it, it was painful and terrifying, I ended the exam because I couldn’t tolerate it, and practically ran out of the office. In the back of my mind, I know I shouldn’t judge all male OB/GYNs that way, but there is something to be said about uniquely female concerns that men do not understand… I feel kind of the same way about urology....I’m curious to see how many men would not be comfortable with a female urologist.




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Yeah, like I said, even though I don't agree with it (I would totally see a female urologist if I thought she was competent), I understand it. Patients have the right to any provider they feel comfortable with and to refuse to see anyone they don't feel comfortable with. But I do disagree that you might as well call a Muslim man sexist. It's completely different to refuse to see a woman because your religion has strict modesty rules than to refuse to see a woman because you think all women are terrible physicians because of one experience. It's your right either way, but one of them is a hasty generalization and the other is not.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Personally don't want a female urologist. Definitely makes me uncomfortable

I have no preference. All the urologists I've seen were men, but that was by chance in one case (my vasectomy) and lack of another option in the other (all the urologists near me were men). I don't have a preference in any specialty really.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Majority of practicing OB/GYNs are women.

It's only going to increase. In that same link, it says that something like 84% of seniors matching into OB/GYN are women.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I have no preference. All the urologists I've seen were men, but that was by chance in one case (my vasectomy) and lack of another option in the other (all the urologists near me were men). I don't have a preference in any specialty really.

The only reason I refused to see the female urologist for my vasectomy was that she was a medical school classmate and I think that would have been weird. I felt the same way when my old family doctor was a med school and residency classmate - I was OK with him managing my cholesterol and bronchitis, would not have been OK with a prostate exam from him.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

The only reason I refused to see the female urologist for my vasectomy was that she was a medical school classmate and I think that would have been weird. I felt the same way when my old family doctor was a med school and residency classmate - I was OK with him managing my cholesterol and bronchitis, would not have been OK with a prostate exam from him.

That makes sense. I did go to a urologist I worked with a lot. Everyone thought he was kind of an dingus (and he kind of was), but he definitely knew his stuff, and I knew it wouldn't be weird or awkward.

Edit: I did have a female coworker give me a shot in the arse once. I thought it might be a little weird since we have to work together, but I didn't want to go to the ED. Ended up being no big deal.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

It's only going to increase. In that same link, it says that something like 84% of seniors matching into OB/GYN are women.

Peds is heading that way as well, though not as strongly.

72% Female residents in 2015's 1st year class. And around 52% of practicing pediatricians are female as of 2015 although that does include subspecialists, not sure what they will do to the numbers as I'm not going to dig any deeper at the moment.

 

[uname943]

Nowhere did she mention competence. She actually stated in her post that she recognizes there are good and bad doctors, and she prefers women due to her experience. No part of that statement is sexist.


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I argue that it is sexism. MW definition of sexism: "prejudice or discrimination based on sex". She chooses to discriminate against male obgyns based on their sex. She is prejudiced against all other male obgyns based on her preconceived judgment or opinion.

 

[uname943]

Let me rephrase to more accurately reflect what I meant: I don't think seeking a provider you feel comfortable with is necessarily a sexist bias that warrants criticism. Anxiety, worry, etc. - those are not voluntary responses where somebody is overtly saying "I think providers with x characteristic are less competent, less kind, etc." So I wouldn't put those two types of preferences in the same class.

Sexism is sexism. People can recognize their biases and fight it. Or they can choose to perpetuate sexism.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Sexism is sexism. People can recognize their biases and fight it. Or they can choose to perpetuate sexism.

FFS She does not have a “preconceived” notion, she has a notion based on her actual experience.
I swear to God, some people just want to create problems where there are none.
By that definition, I am also being sexist when I choose not to date women because I’m straight.


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