More Women Than Men Enrolled in U.S. Medical Schools in 2017

[Goro]

Does this mean we can get rid of the blatantly sexist/racist affirmative action policies that make it easier to get admitted when you're female and or a minority? That'd be great.

SPF is that way ---->

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[puahate]

SPF is that way ---->

What is SPF btw

 

[Goro]

What is SPF btw

Socio-Political Forum. The closest thing SDN has to a cesspool.

Every thread is 10 pages of basically this:

A: ___ is wrong!
B: No it's not!
A: Yes it is!
B: No it's not!

 

[uname943]

My point was actually that I don't agree that this is the same thing as sexism.

It is by definition sexism. She is discriminating by sex.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

FFS She does not have a “preconceived” notion, she has a notion based on her actual experience.
I swear to God, some people just want to create problems where there are none.
By that definition, I am also being sexist when I choose not to date women because I’m straight.


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But she’s making a hasty generalization fallacy. Saying that you don’t trust male providers because of two experiences is a hasty generalization that I’d argue borders on sexism.

My wife has had male and female ob/gyns and ob NPs. The only negative interactions she’s had were with the female providers. But it’s not logical to conclude that all female providers are to be avoided because of two people.

Again, I think it’s fine because ultimately the patient needs to be comfortable. But we can still call it what it is. (Edit: without making her feel like ****—it’s her choice in the end.)

 

[uname943]

FFS She does not have a “preconceived” notion, she has a notion based on her actual experience.

Her experiences contribute to her preconceived notions. Which she uses to justify sexual discrimination. She paints all other male obgyns as being unworthy to provide her services.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Her experiences contribute to her preconceived notions. Which she uses to justify sexual discrimination. She paints all other male obgyns as being unworthy to provide her services.

Which is her right as an autonomous patient. She’s not selecting applicants for medical school or whatever. She’s selecting a physician for herself. If she doesn’t want to see a male doctor because she thinks they aren’t as competent for whatever reason, that’s her choice. You can disagree with it, but it’s still her decision and she shouldn’t be made to feel guilty about it.

Edit: this post is super white knighty and makes me cringe a little, so I’m not going to defend her autonomy again, since I’m sure she could if she wanted to.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

But she’s making a hasty generalization fallacy. Saying that you don’t trust male providers because of two experiences is a hasty generalization that I’d argue borders on sexism.

My wife has had male and female ob/gyns and ob NPs. The only negative interactions she’s had were with the female providers. But it’s not logical to conclude that all female providers are to be avoided because of two people.

Again, I think it’s fine because ultimately the patient needs to be comfortable. But we can still call it what it is.

My wife is the same way and she's pretty anti-female OB/GYNs.

 

[uname943]

Which is her right as an autonomous patient. She’s not selecting applicants for medical school or whatever. She’s selecting a physician for herself. If she doesn’t want to see a male doctor because she thinks they aren’t as competent for whatever reason, that’s her choice. You can disagree with it, but it’s still her decision and she shouldn’t be made to feel guilty about it.

It is her right to discriminate, and it's my right to point out her sexism.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

My wife is the same way and she's pretty anti-female OB/GYNs.

Ha. I don’t know what your wife does. Mine is a nurse and has seen/worked with good and bad docs from both genders, which may inform her willingness to say open minded.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

It is her right to discriminate, and it's my right to point out her sexism.

That’s literally what I said. Your “pointing it out” is bordering on guilting though, which goes beyond just academically discussing it.

 

[deleted407021]

Jesus y’all

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Ha. I don’t know what your wife does. Mine is a nurse and has seen/worked with good and bad docs from both genders, which may inform her willingness to say open minded.

Internist.

Its a combination of lots of things. When she was pregnant with our twins, she saw a female OB once. Was told that if she started having contractions after 26 weeks that they wouldn't try and prevent labor because the evidence doesn't support it and NICUs are good at what they do. She then talked to her father who is an OB and her usual male OB both of whom kinda rolled their eyes and said that of course they would try and prevent labor at 26 weeks because of course you would.

Working as a hospitalist, she'd get lots of consults from OB for medical issues. She came to the conclusion that the majority of the female OBs at that hospital wanted to deliver babies but didn't want to do any GYN surgeries and consequently they sucked at them.

She's a pretty big feminist and is furious at how many women go into OB and peds. She's convinced its because those are the 2 fields most involved with babies and a woman's place is with babies - said with lots of anger and sarcasm.

 

[uname943]

That’s literally what I said. Your “pointing it out” is bordering on guilting though, which goes beyond just academically discussing it.

How would you point out her sexual discrimination? Sexism is not something to be proud of.

 

[evilbooyaa]

For a person to have a negative experience with 2 or 3 male OB-Gyns (due to incompetence based on the post) and then state that she will never willingly go to another male Ob/Gyn is equivalent to me having a bad experience with 3 female urologists and state I will never go to a female urologist in the future due to incompetence. Not that I actually believe that, just a hypothetical.

Either both statements are sexist, or both statements aren't sexist. I imagine @OrthoTraumaMD believes that neither statement is sexist. I would, however, argue that most women would claim my statement is sexist. Jury would be out on the first one. Just my 2 cents to this popcorn-worthy thread. While this is not a dumpster-fire (yet), the people are emptying the trash and someone is starting to pour lighter fluid on it.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Internist.

Its a combination of lots of things. When she was pregnant with our twins, she saw a female OB once. Was told that if she started having contractions after 26 weeks that they wouldn't try and prevent labor because the evidence doesn't support it and NICUs are good at what they do. She then talked to her father who is an OB and her usual male OB both of whom kinda rolled their eyes and said that of course they would try and prevent labor at 26 weeks because of course you would.

Working as a hospitalist, she'd get lots of consults from OB for medical issues. She came to the conclusion that the majority of the female OBs at that hospital wanted to deliver babies but didn't want to do any GYN surgeries and consequently they sucked at them.

She's a pretty big feminist and is furious at how many women go into OB and peds. She's convinced its because those are the 2 fields most involved with babies and a woman's place is with babies - said with lots of anger and sarcasm.

Ha fair enough. When my wife was preggo with number 2, the female NP told her that since she was 35, they would be inducing her at 39.5 weeks. No discussion or anything. When my wife said she didn’t want to do that, the NP got all pissy and started rattling off how often she would be required to come in for testing and **** lol.

We saw the doctor a few days later for something unrelated, and we asked him about it. He was like wtf was that NP high? Lol.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

How would you point out her sexual discrimination? Sexism is not something to be proud of.

Nice straw man. And if you read my posts, I did point it out by mentioning the logical flaw in the argument. I didn’t do it with a condescending tone or snarky attitude.

 

[uname943]

Nice straw man. And if you read my posts, I did point it out by mentioning the logical flaw in the argument. I didn’t do it with a condescending tone or snarky attitude.

So then how would you point out the sexism?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

So then how would you point out the sexism?

Are you being intentionally obtuse?

 

[uname943]

Are you being intentionally obtuse?

No.

You didn't answer the question.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

No.

You didn't answer the question.

I did. Multiple times.

 

[raiderette]

I have every right to choose my gender of physician for non-critical care. For me it is comfort based on past experiences. I also think parents can and should choose pediatricians they can trust. Is it sexist to want a female gyn? Possibly. I don't generally put restrictions on other doctors. My FP is now a male, for instance, chosen because of his competence and past care. I would never turn away a doctor in a life-threatening situation, so I don't consider that discrimination. Nobody is perfect, and I really don't care if anyone's panties get in a bunch. I am probably not turning you down personally. And since I am intending to go into the field, I certainly hope to meet doctors of both genders who could earn my trust.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Are you being intentionally obtuse?

Yes, along with a holier than thou attitude and a lack of understanding of women’s experiences with their own internal organs, and whom they let near said organs.


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[solitarius]

I have every right to choose my gender of physician for non-critical care. For me it is comfort based on past experiences. I also think parents can and should choose pediatricians they can trust. Is it sexist to want a female gyn? Possibly. I don't generally put restrictions on other doctors. My FP is now a male, for instance, chosen because of his competence and past care.

I think that's totally fine, but I'm dismayed when I hear complaints of sexism if the genders were reversed.

Things to consider: 30 years ago, having a physician of an opposite gender do a complete H&P would be a non-issue. Today it's an issue. How much of that is socialization? At Harvard, people can no longer formally associate with people of the same gender because that's gender discrimination.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I think that's totally fine, but I'm dismayed when I hear complaints of sexism if the genders were reversed.

I think when it involves genitals its less of an issue. A guy wanting a male urologist isn't likely to cause much notice.

Demanding a specific gender for your orthopedic surgeon is a touch more suspect.

 

[evilbooyaa]

I think when it involves genitals its less of an issue. A guy wanting a male urologist isn't likely to cause much notice.

Demanding a specific gender for your orthopedic surgeon is a touch more suspect.

But we're just talking about competence, right? If I had 3 female orthopedic surgeons in a row and they all were (in my view) incompetent, I'd have the same leg to stand on to say I don't ever want another female orthopedic surgeon, right? Same if a woman said she had a bad experience with 3 male orthopedic surgeons and now wanted to only have female orthopedic surgeons?

 

[uname943]

I did. Multiple times.

So you aren't really pointing out the sexism.

 

[uname943]

Who is "she"? I'm not talking about any one specific person.

I thought we were talking about Raiderette, if not, never mind.

 

[uname943]

I have every right to choose my gender of physician for non-critical care. For me it is comfort based on past experiences. I also think parents can and should choose pediatricians they can trust. Is it sexist to want a female gyn? Possibly. I don't generally put restrictions on other doctors. My FP is now a male, for instance, chosen because of his competence and past care. I would never turn away a doctor in a life-threatening situation, so I don't consider that discrimination. Nobody is perfect, and I really don't care if anyone's panties get in a bunch. I am probably not turning you down personally. And since I am intending to go into the field, I certainly hope to meet doctors of both genders who could earn my trust.

Of course you have the right to choose your physician. I'm glad that you recognize the possibility that sexism is driving your decision making process. It is discrimination because you are refusing to accept any male obgyns in non emergent settings. It would also be discrimination if I refused to take any male obgyns as patients.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

So you aren't really pointing out the sexism.

I literally used the word sexism. You’re trolling now.

 

[uname943]

I literally used the word sexism. You’re trolling now.

Thanks, I confused you for another poster.

 

[evilbooyaa]

But if you listen to the women who have had bad experiences with male providers, it's not usually about competence. It's very rarely "this male doctor missed my diagnosis because he doesn't know what endometriosis is, and therefore I'd rather see women from here on out." It's "this male doctor missed my diagnosis because he didn't listen to me, didn't believe me, etc., and I think that women are less likely to do those things." It's typically about communication style, and there is PLENTY of data to support differences in communication style between men and women, some of which has been done on physicians. There are also lots of studies out there showing that physicians do a bad job of taking the complaints of women & people of color seriously, and maybe people feel like if they see a doctor who is like them, they have a better shot at achieving their health-related goals. Maybe that's true, maybe it's not, but it's not an irrational assumption - the data backs it up (see this recent study showing that women who came to the ED with an MI had slightly improved survival rates when treated by female physicians, or even in EDs who hired a higher proportion of female physicians).

That to me, is a projection that women not infrequently have that men are not listening to them. When a woman misses a diagnosis, it's because they didn't know. When a man misses a diagnosis, it's always because they didn't listen or take complaints seriously. It's a logical fallacy, IMO. I do agree that it is not an irrational assumption, from the mind of a patient.

That ED study has been thoroughly analyzed and relatively thoroughly debunked in the EM forum - I invite you to wander over there and read what real EM doctors' thoughts are on studies like that. It's a nice headline and abstract, but doesn't really hold up if you actually critically analyze the research.

Regardless - let me rephrase so people feel that I'm comparing apples to apples: If I feel 3 female physicians of a specific specialty do not listen to my complaints well or don't believe me, am I justified in generalizing that consideration to all female physicians of that specialty, and not want to see a female physician in that specialty?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

That to me, is a projection that women not infrequently have that men are not listening to them. When a woman misses a diagnosis, it's because they didn't know. When a man misses a diagnosis, it's always because they didn't listen or take complaints seriously. It's a logical fallacy, IMO. I do agree that it is not an irrational assumption, from the mind of a patient.

That ED study has been thoroughly analyzed and relatively thoroughly debunked in the EM forum - I invite you to wander over there and read what real EM doctors' thoughts are on studies like that. It's a nice headline and abstract, but doesn't really hold up if you actually critically analyze the research.

Regardless - let me rephrase so people feel that I'm comparing apples to apples: If I feel 3 female physicians of a specific specialty do not listen to my complaints well or don't believe me, am I justified in generalizing that consideration to all female physicians of that specialty, and not want to see a female physician in that specialty?

Yes

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

But we're just talking about competence, right? If I had 3 female orthopedic surgeons in a row and they all were (in my view) incompetent, I'd have the same leg to stand on to say I don't ever want another female orthopedic surgeon, right? Same if a woman said she had a bad experience with 3 male orthopedic surgeons and now wanted to only have female orthopedic surgeons?

Yes

 

[Goro]

How would you point out her sexual discrimination? Sexism is not something to be proud of.

Just let it go, already. We've had enough of this:

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Regardless - let me rephrase so people feel that I'm comparing apples to apples: If I feel 3 female physicians of a specific specialty do not listen to my complaints well or don't believe me, am I justified in generalizing that consideration to all female physicians of that specialty, and not want to see a female physician in that specialty

Probably depends on who you ask. If you ask most people here, who believe that patient autonomy is paramount, then the answer will likely be yes.

 

[Lucca]

Closing.