Mormon bias in dental school

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Destiny11

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Mormons are some of the hardest working and nicest people I know in dental school. They are also very socially isolated. Has anyone experienced bias where Mormons are favored (esp by Mormon faculty)?
 
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Mormons are very nice people.

I think that because they were simply brought up in an environment where they were surrounded by people of the same beliefs, which are beliefs that differ from a majority of people, it serves to link them together. They may view certain aspects of their upbringing as difficult and too harsh but when they find someone who has had to deal with the same difficult situations as they did, then they can more easily relate to them.

I recommend you YouTube "Mormon in America". It is a documentary by NBC produced like a year ago. One of the most fascinating documentaries I've seen.

Also quick question: How are you enjoying Midwestern-AZ? Any complaints or things you see could be improved? Would you recommend it?
 
lwen5 said:
Also quick question: How are you enjoying Midwestern-AZ? Any complaints or things you see could be improved? Would you recommend it?
Click to expand...

Here is my take on it. All higher up faculty says MWU is a very good school. All faculty that worked at other dental schools say MWU is a very good school and clinical experience is similar to an AEGD. I would still recommend this school to everyone. Improvements: There are constant changes that you have to adapt to as some things are still being worked out/improved upon. Policies are not transparent. I heard that clinical experience is heavily dependent on your patients needs and ability to pay. Competency based requirements mean some students can graduate having done only 2 root canals or 2 sets of dentures, but on the flip side you can be doing full mouth reconstruction/implant cases and other complex procedures you won't see at other dental schools.
 
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Rlow04 said:
What year are you?
Click to expand...

How do you like Midwestern? Do you think it clinically good? How is the slight increase in class size affecting quality? What are some cons or weaknesses? Thanks. 👍
 
I'm a Mormon, and I think you are making a genuine inquiry. I don't think my professors even know I am Mormon. I am also unaware of any of their religious beliefs. Could you be more specific in what kind of favoritism? Like in admission to d school, or in grading, or what?

Just trying to be helpful...
 
So it sounds like you're a first year, and I'm guessing it's a sim-clinic issue where you feel like your bench instructor (Smith, Harmond, etc) is giving more attention/better scores to your Mormon classmate sitting next to you. Am I close?

One of best parts of Midwestern is how seriously they take the end of quarter student evaluations. There is no tenure and multiple instructors have been fired because of student feedback. We tried to get our Oral Pathology teacher fired last year through massive negative feedback. They kept him, but he really took the feedback to heart and has improved his teaching style and curriculum.

I'm not suggesting that you try and get all your Mormon instructors fired, but if it really is an issue, the administration needs to know and will absolutely address the issue.
 
lwen5 said:
how do you like midwestern? Do you think it clinically good? How is the slight increase in class size affecting quality? What are some cons or weaknesses? Thanks. 👍
Click to expand...

+1
 
Baylor has blind grading of almost all pre-clinic lab work. Wax ups are graded by some computer software that analyzes your dimensions. Fixed, operative, and removable practicals are graded by multiple blinded instructors. This eliminates rumors of favoritism and bias, most of which is simply jealousy. Do yourself a favor and learn to not ask others' grades. If you hear someone gets an A close to you, ask if you can see it to get a better idea of what your professors consider an A. You'll have to realize that a lot of the grading is subjective and you have to try to find out who will be grading your work and tailor it to their likings.
 
Careful not to confuse Mormon and BYU Crew. There's a difference.

Just try to ignore it. I don't think they are consciously looking to help other members based on that fact alone alone. They come from the same places or went to school together and whatever. You might be in my class. From what I can see (and I have a great view), it's more of a family issue that spills directly into a bunch of friends from undergrad. Not so much a help-a-mormon-out thing.
 
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jeffity said:
Careful not to confuse Mormon and BYU Crew. There's a difference.

Just try to ignore it. I don't think they are consciously looking to help other members based on that fact alone alone. They come from the same places or went to school together and whatever. You might be in my class. From what I can see (and I have a great view), it's more of a family issue that spills directly into a bunch of friends from undergrad. Not so much a help-a-mormon-out thing.
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I was trying to figure out if she was a D2 and this was another Dr Smith-Cam issue. Are you a D2 Jeffity?
 
Hi rlow, I was wondering whether you could answer these questions? Thanks

How do you like Midwestern? Do you think it is clinically good? How is the slight increase in class size affecting quality? What are some cons or weaknesses? Thanks.
 
lwen5 said:
Hi rlow, I was wondering whether you could answer these questions? Thanks

How do you like Midwestern? Do you think it is clinically good? How is the slight increase in class size affecting quality? What are some cons or weaknesses? Thanks.
Click to expand...

I love Midwestern, it's been a great experience all around.

First year was tough, but I was glad to get all of basic sciences out of the way and have a 3 month summer break to take boards part 1. The integrated curriculum was great.

Second year was all dentistry with Pharm mixed in, I felt very prepared for 3rd year in terms of dental hand skills.

I'm 5 months into 3rd year, and I'm loving clinic as well. We have a partnership model where every D3 has a D4 partner who you assist and they assist you. This means you can see multiple patients in a morning or afternoon and practice quadrant dentistry. It allows you to ease into procedures as you feel comfortable - there's no way to get confident with extractions on plastic teeth. On our first patient that needed extractions my parter did #2 and I did #15 - it was great to see him do it and then he walked me through my first extraction. We have a 7 unit bridge case that I've learned a ton from that I never would have gotten if I was on my own.

Another thing I love about Midwestern's clinic is the lack of departments. We have a couple endodontists and periodontists, one orthodontist, one prosthodontist, and currently no pedodontist (she got fired and we're looking for a new one). At many other schools when you have a complex case in one of those specialties, the cases go to the residents in those departments. Here we do all our pedo/ortho (with the guidance of our orthodontist) and we assist the specialist on complex endo/perio/prosth cases. We have direct access to them and learn side by side while assisting them.

Oral Surgery does have 2 residents in clinic that rotate from a program out of Banner Hospital. We get to assist on the surgeries that your patient needs, and they're friendly if you want to come and watch someone else's surgery. I got to watch a bilateral, lateral window sinus lift surgery a few months ago. Originally there were some teachers that were letting students place implants upstairs outside of oral surgery. However now all implants are done downstairs in OS. If you demonstrate interest and competence and the right case comes up, Oral Surgery might let you place the implants yourself.

Technology-wise, we just got WaveOne, which is a new Endo instrument with only 1 major file after you've established glide path (=way easier and faster root canals). We also now have Diode lasers in all the suites - so even though we're a new school, they're still buying new equipment and technology.

I don't think having 140 students is going to affect too much - right now we have more than enough chairs in clinic. However getting start checks, prep checks, etc will probably take a little longer because 2 faculty will be spread over 14 pairs instead of 11 pairs.

Some cons:
- some of our teachers suck at making test questions, so you'll get a few Qs per test that are bogus. Sometimes they'll get thrown out, sometimes you'll get stuck with them. However, I'm guessing this is typical of most schools.
- clinic protocols change, sometimes for the better, but sometimes for the worse. If you just expect a certain degree of bureaucracy in any large organization, this won't surprise you. Some of my classmates get worked up about it.
- The D3/D4 partnerships sometimes suck. If you get stuck with someone you don't work well with, it will be a long year. I've got a great partner, but some of my friends got screwed. Some suites ask for your feedback in who you want as a partner, so if you're aggressive about finding someone you work well with, it can work out well.
- Because we're a relatively new school, we don't have a long legacy of producing specialists. You can still specialize from here, but we're not heavy into research. If you 100% know you want to specialize and you're choosing between MWU and Columbia, I'd choose Columbia. However if you want a well rounded, general dentist, solid clinical education, this is a great place to be. I've even heard of some of the GPR/AEGD programs that want as many of our graduates as they can get because of our clinical experience.


Overall, I've loved MWU because the professors treat us like fellow professionals and I've got awesome classmates. We're based on UoP's 'humanistic model of dental education' and Arthur Dugoni spoke to us on our first day here. We still have to put up a fair amount of crap and dental school is inherently hard, but overall dental school has been 3 of the best years of my adult life. Maybe it's because the Army is paying for it or maybe it's because I'm Mormon so all my professors are biased towards me 😉
 
The OP edited their initial question so I'll rephrase it for this discussion: is there a Mormon bias from faculty at MWU and what's your overall impression of the school.

I am in the c/o 2015, not a Mormon, and my ethnicity is represented by less than a handful of students/faculty throughout the entire school.

1) Mormon bias - This is student doctor so it isn't overly difficult to relate with your perspective and humor your question. That won't be the case later on in your professional career. We have a large percentage (25-35%) of Mormons among both the students and the faculty. Some schools have large numbers of Asians. Some schools are predominantly African American. This could be due to location, school mandate or simply applicant demographics. As an undergraduate or underclassmen (D1/D2), you're understandably under a lot of stress, and tend to get fixated on little things.. losing the forest for the trees.

First of all, 80% of your dental school (and later) education will come from a select few mentors that you will find and choose to emulate. MWU makes it easy to connect with professors. We rotate between a pair of professors every quarter in sim clinic. We are assigned to a pair of professors in our clinic suites. All of our faculty have open door policies. In my opinion, all of the pre-clinic faculty were fair, approachable, professional and happy to help.. if you were willing to put in the work. When the clinic moves to 14 pairs per suite in two years there will actually be 3 docs per suite, so it will be an even better ratio than it currently is. Grading is blind. Lastly, when the rare problems do come up with faculty, the students typically win.

Secondly, dentistry is a great profession because of the flexibility it affords us. We get to chose our hours, chose who we work with, chose our procedures, and chose where we work. But if you think you can chose your patients, you are sadly mistaken. Our duty as dentists is to help others, and part of that is being able to empathize and relate. One aspect MWU is not flexible about is teamwork. If you're bad at working with others and only see your peers as competition, you should 100% not go here. We do a lot of group projects and your last two years involve working in a pair. During our first two years, nearly everyone in our class built study guides together. Focus on yourself. Paranoia is unattractive.

2) Overall impression - if I could do it again, I'd do it the same. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiWwqmDvsj8 (Mormons please don't click). Again, please don't matriculate here if you're lame. I hope this helps.
 
The concept of working exclusively with another student and assisting for each other is interesting. Do you guys have individual requirements to pass 3rd yr and to graduate? How many patients will you guys typically see in a day?
 
slm266 said:
The concept of working exclusively with another student and assisting for each other is interesting. Do you guys have individual requirements to pass 3rd yr and to graduate? How many patients will you guys typically see in a day?
Click to expand...

Like in the real world, students at MWU practice 4 handed dentistry with an assistant (your clinic partner). Having a D3/D4 pair also ensure continuity for the patients when one graduates. We have competencies, no number requirements (although they do keep track of your procedures to make sure you get enough experience in each area).

2-6 patients per day depending on the procedure.
 
gt123 said:
One aspect MWU is not flexible about is teamwork. If you're bad at working with others and only see your peers as competition, you should 100% not go here.
Click to expand...

That's a good point. It's not a gunner-friendly place. You can achieve the results and specialize and be top of your class and whatever, but it'll be a sad four years if you can't work with others and can't just chill out with that whole attitude. I know who's aiming high and looking to ace everything they touch, but they're generally the most helpful and informative and sharing people in the class.
 
Rlow04 said:
I love Midwestern, it's been a great experience all around.

First year was tough, but I was glad to get all of basic sciences out of the way and have a 3 month summer break to take boards part 1. The integrated curriculum was great.

Second year was all dentistry with Pharm mixed in, I felt very prepared for 3rd year in terms of dental hand skills.

I'm 5 months into 3rd year, and I'm loving clinic as well. We have a partnership model where every D3 has a D4 partner who you assist and they assist you. This means you can see multiple patients in a morning or afternoon and practice quadrant dentistry. It allows you to ease into procedures as you feel comfortable - there's no way to get confident with extractions on plastic teeth. On our first patient that needed extractions my parter did #2 and I did #15 - it was great to see him do it and then he walked me through my first extraction. We have a 7 unit bridge case that I've learned a ton from that I never would have gotten if I was on my own.

Another thing I love about Midwestern's clinic is the lack of departments. We have a couple endodontists and periodontists, one orthodontist, one prosthodontist, and currently no pedodontist (she got fired and we're looking for a new one). At many other schools when you have a complex case in one of those specialties, the cases go to the residents in those departments. Here we do all our pedo/ortho (with the guidance of our orthodontist) and we assist the specialist on complex endo/perio/prosth cases. We have direct access to them and learn side by side while assisting them.

Oral Surgery does have 2 residents in clinic that rotate from a program out of Banner Hospital. We get to assist on the surgeries that your patient needs, and they're friendly if you want to come and watch someone else's surgery. I got to watch a bilateral, lateral window sinus lift surgery a few months ago. Originally there were some teachers that were letting students place implants upstairs outside of oral surgery. However now all implants are done downstairs in OS. If you demonstrate interest and competence and the right case comes up, Oral Surgery might let you place the implants yourself.

Technology-wise, we just got WaveOne, which is a new Endo instrument with only 1 major file after you've established glide path (=way easier and faster root canals). We also now have Diode lasers in all the suites - so even though we're a new school, they're still buying new equipment and technology.

I don't think having 140 students is going to affect too much - right now we have more than enough chairs in clinic. However getting start checks, prep checks, etc will probably take a little longer because 2 faculty will be spread over 14 pairs instead of 11 pairs.

Some cons:
- some of our teachers suck at making test questions, so you'll get a few Qs per test that are bogus. Sometimes they'll get thrown out, sometimes you'll get stuck with them. However, I'm guessing this is typical of most schools.
- clinic protocols change, sometimes for the better, but sometimes for the worse. If you just expect a certain degree of bureaucracy in any large organization, this won't surprise you. Some of my classmates get worked up about it.
- The D3/D4 partnerships sometimes suck. If you get stuck with someone you don't work well with, it will be a long year. I've got a great partner, but some of my friends got screwed. Some suites ask for your feedback in who you want as a partner, so if you're aggressive about finding someone you work well with, it can work out well.
- Because we're a relatively new school, we don't have a long legacy of producing specialists. You can still specialize from here, but we're not heavy into research. If you 100% know you want to specialize and you're choosing between MWU and Columbia, I'd choose Columbia. However if you want a well rounded, general dentist, solid clinical education, this is a great place to be. I've even heard of some of the GPR/AEGD programs that want as many of our graduates as they can get because of our clinical experience.


Overall, I've loved MWU because the professors treat us like fellow professionals and I've got awesome classmates. We're based on UoP's 'humanistic model of dental education' and Arthur Dugoni spoke to us on our first day here. We still have to put up a fair amount of crap and dental school is inherently hard, but overall dental school has been 3 of the best years of my adult life. Maybe it's because the Army is paying for it or maybe it's because I'm Mormon so all my professors are biased towards me 😉
Click to expand...

gt123 said:
The OP edited their initial question so I'll rephrase it for this discussion: is there a Mormon bias from faculty at MWU and what's your overall impression of the school.

I am in the c/o 2015, not a Mormon, and my ethnicity is represented by less than a handful of students/faculty throughout the entire school.

1) Mormon bias - This is student doctor so it isn't overly difficult to relate with your perspective and humor your question. That won't be the case later on in your professional career. We have a large percentage (25-35%) of Mormons among both the students and the faculty. Some schools have large numbers of Asians. Some schools are predominantly African American. This could be due to location, school mandate or simply applicant demographics. As an undergraduate or underclassmen (D1/D2), you're understandably under a lot of stress, and tend to get fixated on little things.. losing the forest for the trees.

First of all, 80% of your dental school (and later) education will come from a select few mentors that you will find and choose to emulate. MWU makes it easy to connect with professors. We rotate between a pair of professors every quarter in sim clinic. We are assigned to a pair of professors in our clinic suites. All of our faculty have open door policies. In my opinion, all of the pre-clinic faculty were fair, approachable, professional and happy to help.. if you were willing to put in the work. When the clinic moves to 14 pairs per suite in two years there will actually be 3 docs per suite, so it will be an even better ratio than it currently is. Grading is blind. Lastly, when the rare problems do come up with faculty, the students typically win.

Secondly, dentistry is a great profession because of the flexibility it affords us. We get to chose our hours, chose who we work with, chose our procedures, and chose where we work. But if you think you can chose your patients, you are sadly mistaken. Our duty as dentists is to help others, and part of that is being able to empathize and relate. One aspect MWU is not flexible about is teamwork. If you're bad at working with others and only see your peers as competition, you should 100% not go here. We do a lot of group projects and your last two years involve working in a pair. During our first two years, nearly everyone in our class built study guides together. Focus on yourself. Paranoia is unattractive.

2) Overall impression - if I could do it again, I'd do it the same. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiWwqmDvsj8 (Mormons please don't click). Again, please don't matriculate here if you're lame. I hope this helps.
Click to expand...

coolslugs said:
Like in the real world, students at MWU practice 4 handed dentistry with an assistant (your clinic partner). Having a D3/D4 pair also ensure continuity for the patients when one graduates. We have competencies, no number requirements (although they do keep track of your procedures to make sure you get enough experience in each area).

2-6 patients per day depending on the procedure.
Click to expand...

Thanks you guys are really helpful and this is the most comprehensive review of MWU I have seen on here. Really appreciate your response, rlow. Seems like a very very nice school. It is pricey, but it seems like you really 'get what you pay for' which may not be the case at other schools?

I don't want to take up anymore of your guys' time (I'll contact you via PM later when the real time comes). I guess the only questions I can think of now is: Do you get any clinical exposure second year (like cleanings, etc)? Also, what are the clinic hours and are there any ways to see more patients than avg student, because personally I wouldn't mind working after 5 just to get more clinical exposure! :laugh: Oh, and also I know there is nothing like real world experience, but I really want to go into private practice and I was wondering what MWU does specifically to train students in this regard?

Thanks a lot guys. I'll repost yawl's responses in the pre-dent forum in case anyone needs to know more about MWU so that your responses aren't only wasted on me. :laugh:
 
lwen5 said:
I don't want to take up anymore of your guys' time (I'll contact you via PM later when the real time comes). I guess the only questions I can think of now is: Do you get any clinical exposure second year (like cleanings, etc)? Also, what are the clinic hours and are there any ways to see more patients than avg student, because personally I wouldn't mind working after 5 just to get more clinical exposure! :laugh: Oh, and also I know there is nothing like real world experience, but I really want to go into private practice and I was wondering what MWU does specifically to train students in this regard?

Thanks a lot guys. I'll repost yawl's responses in the pre-dent forum in case anyone needs to know more about MWU so that your responses aren't only wasted on me. :laugh:
Click to expand...

Yes you do get clinical exposure to patients during your second year (like cleanings), and they are trying to set something up even more for the second years. Clinic hours are: M (1-5), T-F (8-5). No extra-time during the week, but you can sign up for extra clinic time or watch specialists work during breaks. If you want to go into private practice, then MWU is the place to go. Clinic is set up in 10 suites like small group practices. Entire program is geared towards private practice and offers practice management and patient/practice psychology courses.
 
Something like this happens at every school. It's unfortunately it's happening due to religious reasons. It's hard for faculty to not favor (or seem to favor) certain students when they go to the same church, or are in the same club (LDS club in your case) and interact more outside of class. Same can be said if a higher ups son or daughter is a student in the school, or if a student's parent is a major donor or good friend with a higher up. It is wrong to give advantages or favorable opportunities to those students because everyone is paying the same tuition, or worse yet, pass a student when that student does not meet acceptable limits. One of the higher up's son is in my class, and it does create tension within my class because things do happen.
 
Destiny11 said:
Mormons are some of the hardest working and nicest people I know in dental school. They are also very socially isolated. Has anyone experienced bias where Mormons are favored (esp by Mormon faculty)?
Click to expand...
Kind of discriminatory statement. I never thought my Mormon friends were socially isolated. Anyone else have mandatory school each morning before going to their public school or have church socials where it's a good opportunity to meet a nice significant other? I think they are close knit, maybe a little too closed knit by choice. If anything, I was more isolated than them.
 
Canada160 said:
Something like this happens at every school. It's unfortunately it's happening due to religious reasons. It's hard for faculty to not favor (or seem to favor) certain students when they go to the same church, or are in the same club (LDS club in your case) and interact more outside of class. Same can be said if a higher ups son or daughter is a student in the school, or if a student's parent is a major donor or good friend with a higher up. It is wrong to give advantages or favorable opportunities to those students because everyone is paying the same tuition, or worse yet, pass a student when that student does not meet acceptable limits. One of the higher up's son is in my class, and it does create tension within my class because things do happen.
Click to expand...

Agreed.
 
At UoP they have the secret mormon test files...that's why so many people who match into oral surgery are mormons. I went to UoP, but wasn't a mormon, and that's why I'm not an oral surgeon. +pity+
 
My class is about 60% Asians, 30% Mormons, and 10% others. The mormons are further divided into two different subgroups. Group A - the overachiever mormons - they are the ones who are composed of people who are probably all within the top 20 of the class. They are nice when you talk to them and they help you when you ask for it but,yeah, they are very much socially isolated. Everybody envies them because aside from being on top of the class, they are living relatively lavish lifestyles and are freakishly goodlooking people. Most of them are just naturally skilled or talented academically and clinically that they get higher grades than most people in class even though they don't work as hard (again most, but not all... some of them works so freakishly hard to achieve their status). Group B - normal people who happen to be mormons - I don't think I need to explain further here.

While majority of people on top of my class are mormons, I do not see our mormon faculties having bias toward their fellow mormons.
 
I grew up in a very Mormon community where I was one of only a few students in a town that was not either Mormon or Hispanic, which is a very lonely place to be. I joined the Mormon church for three months and one of my LDS professors in undergrad gave me an A in a class that I really should have earned a C in, so yes, I believe favoritism happens. I don't know if it's happens in dental school though because my school doesn't have any LDS members in it.
 
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Rlow04 said:
We still have to put up a fair amount of crap
Click to expand...

Other than poor D3-D4 partnerships and constantly changing clinic protocols, can you elaborate on what else you deal with? I have heard a great deal of positive things about MWU-AZ, and I'd like to learn about the negatives as well.
 
Destiny11 said:
Mormons are some of the hardest working and nicest people I know in dental school. They are also very socially isolated. Has anyone experienced bias where Mormons are favored (esp by Mormon faculty)?
Click to expand...
OSU has a large population I guess due to some agreement back in early 1920's. Couple faculty too.
 
Destiny11 said:
Mormons are some of the hardest working and nicest people I know in dental school. They are also very socially isolated. Has anyone experienced bias where Mormons are favored (esp by Mormon faculty)?
Click to expand...
I don't think they're socially isolated at all. You just have to pick the right activities. They won't go to any outing specifically revolving around the consumption of alcohol like parties.

Think family friendly stuff like going out to eat and frisbee golf or any sport really (i don't know why but all the mormons i met are very athletic).

I don't think they're favored because they're mormon. Mormons just tend to be good, likeable and polite people.
 
Mormons (like me) are a lot of times socially isolated because we are married and may have kids as well, just normal life outside of school.
 
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