Motivation for a US dental liscence

[omfsres]

Don't ask me why I've been reading this board but I stumbled upon a thread and since then I have been struggling with my stance on the foreign trained dentist attempting to gain entrance into a US dental school with advanced standing.

I've read several threads and there seems to be a lot of competition for these spots at certain dental school. Some of the posters have apparently been trying for years. One stated that she had not practiced in 10 years.
In that time the person could have gone to undergrad and taking the DAT and gotten in just like any other american student. Probably cheaper as well when you consider the tuition these schools charge a FTD.

It seems to me that the motivation for these pursuits is financial. It is certainly not for the love of dentistry otherwise you would just set up practice in the country you were trained. There must certainly be a shortage of dentists with everyone trying to come to the states. How many FTD obtain a foreign degree without ever any intention of practicing in their respective country? I guarantee that if dentists made salaries in India(or wherever) that were the same or higher than the states, this forum would probably not exhist.

In my opinion, I don't think US dental school should allow this simply because we don't need dentists with foreign training. If there is a shortage in the US, just increase the class sizes. If you want to practice dentistry, stay in your country. If you want to practice in america why not go to undergrad and apply to dental school like everyone else. Otherwise I would like to see the admission standards much higher to ensure the best of the best are only allowed in the profession. Understand that I have nothing against foreign people or immigration. If anything it is nice having intelligent professionals coming in to this country. My problem is the motivation and a supply and demand issue.

Please enlighten me. I sure that there are aspects of this issue I could not possibly consider. Finally, I commend everyone for there hard work and apparent perserverence. Congradualation for those who get in because is a very satisfying and lucrative career.

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[CALALILY]

Isnt it excellent that you are an OMFS resident? Well, hats off to you! However, do not critique without considering the obvious and positions of others:

Firstly, a FTD is probably in the USA to be closer to their family.

Secondly, a FTD might be here to make a better life for themselves/their family/their future generation.

Thirdly, a FTD is NOT here for money!

Fourthly, a FTD might be here to better their skills and continue in the profession they love - else they would not bother going back to school for an extra 2 years and incurring such heavy debts!

Fifthly, Dentistry is a competitive profession, not to mention equivalent, if not harder, to enrol in as medicine. Thus, when one is already a dentist in their own respective country and want to come to America, they already know what it means to re-do dentistry here. They dont blindly leave their country to come here to just make money.

Sixthly, if given the chance, I am certain some of the FTDs here are much better qualifeid that some of the OMFS residents that supposedly exist around here - in both knowledge and practice (not to mention ethics and morals).

Seventhly, instead of saying that FTDs should not be allowed here, why dont you try looking at this aspect in another manner - maybe you can actually learn from a FTD some of the skills and materials and methods to better your performance, as they have already learnt it in their respective countries - and you are still in the learning phase of things, may I add!

I am sure the above has sufficed as an explaination as to why a FTD wants to practice in the USA/Canada.

You seem to have no idea how difficult it is for one to be such highly qualified and with ample experience under their belt and then to be told that they have to re-study their basic medicine and dentistry and re-do a 2 year program. Once you understand this, you should be in a much better position to answer some of your questions without having to actually bother addressing it here - with spelling and grammatical mistakes, may I add!

No offence taken and non implied... just a thought!

Kind Regards..

 

[dusja]

Isnt it excellent that you are an OMFS resident? Well, hats off to you! However, do not critique without considering the obvious and positions of others:

Firstly, a FTD is probably in the USA to be closer to their family.

Secondly, a FTD might be here to make a better life for themselves/their family/their future generation.

Thirdly, a FTD is NOT here for money!

Fourthly, a FTD might be here to better their skills and continue in the profession they love - else they would not bother going back to school for an extra 2 years and incurring such heavy debts!

Fifthly, Dentistry is a competitive profession, not to mention equivalent, if not harder, to enrol in as medicine. Thus, when one is already a dentist in their own respective country and want to come to America, they already know what it means to re-do dentistry here. They dont blindly leave their country to come here to just make money.

Sixthly, if given the chance, I am certain some of the FTDs here are much better qualifeid that some of the OMFS residents that supposedly exist around here - in both knowledge and practice (not to mention ethics and morals).

Seventhly, instead of saying that FTDs should not be allowed here, why dont you try looking at this aspect in another manner - maybe you can actually learn from a FTD some of the skills and materials and methods to better your performance, as they have already learnt it in their respective countries - and you are still in the learning phase of things, may I add!

I am sure the above has sufficed as an explaination as to why a FTD wants to practice in the USA/Canada.

You seem to have no idea how difficult it is for one to be such highly qualified and with ample experience under their belt and then to be told that they have to re-study their basic medicine and dentistry and re-do a 2 year program. Once you understand this, you should be in a much better position to answer some of your questions without having to actually bother addressing it here - with spelling and grammatical mistakes, may I add!

No offence taken and non implied... just a thought!

Kind Regards..

You know? I am some kind of person who loves Dentistry. Do I care about money. Yes, I do. But I am dying without my profession.

 

[godbless]

Don't ask me why I've been reading this board but I stumbled upon a thread and since then I have been struggling with my stance on the foreign trained dentist attempting to gain entrance into a US dental school with advanced standing.

I've read several threads and there seems to be a lot of competition for these spots at certain dental school. Some of the posters have apparently been trying for years. One stated that she had not practiced in 10 years.
In that time the person could have gone to undergrad and taking the DAT and gotten in just like any other american student. Probably cheaper as well when you consider the tuition these schools charge a FTD.

It seems to me that the motivation for these pursuits is financial. It is certainly not for the love of dentistry otherwise you would just set up practice in the country you were trained. There must certainly be a shortage of dentists with everyone trying to come to the states. How many FTD obtain a foreign degree without ever any intention of practicing in their respective country? I guarantee that if dentists made salaries in India(or wherever) that were the same or higher than the states, this forum would probably not exhist.

In my opinion, I don't think US dental school should allow this simply because we don't need dentists with foreign training. If there is a shortage in the US, just increase the class sizes. If you want to practice dentistry, stay in your country. If you want to practice in america why not go to undergrad and apply to dental school like everyone else. Otherwise I would like to see the admission standards much higher to ensure the best of the best are only allowed in the profession. Understand that I have nothing against foreign people or immigration. If anything it is nice having intelligent professionals coming in to this country. My problem is the motivation and a supply and demand issue.

Please enlighten me. I sure that there are aspects of this issue I could not possibly consider. Finally, I commend everyone for there hard work and apparent perserverence. Congradualation for those who get in because is a very satisfying and lucrative career.

hi omfsres,
are you really an OMFS? why r u so bitter, i tihnk you got beat by a FTD!!!!
when i read your post i was aggravated, so i am writing after a few hours. i wish fido, nilebds,fixensmiles too read your post n reply to u, we shal love to meet you actually!
if you think"the motivation for dentistry is financial"i shal not debate it coz this might be your motivation.
and YES salaries are more is states, so we are here too, who wudnt wanna make more money and live a better life?
and dental schools allow FTDs to study and work here coz US is an evolved country and respect democracy and everyone's right to highest education and a lucrative career based on merit.i feel sad for you and understand why you feel threatened little boy!!
and US welcomes us in this country coz they beleive in equal oppurtunity for everyone, people like u r very obscure, and US schools recognize and respect and appreciate the talent and competence FTDs bring in with them ,and so give us a chance, and this might actually should be a challenge for you to compete with us and prove yourself if you can!FTDs actually on an average score much more than you guys...........
and statement slike these"if you want to practise dentistry, stay in your country"are very undemocratic,provocative and irresponsible, as most of us have family here, citizenship here or american spouses , so we are as american as you are, and those of us who are on visas here will accquire the citizenship over a couple of years, as good as yours.
and as for your statemnt"we dunt need dentists with foreign training"........all countries in the world have gone global now, people freely migrate to other nations, and it is not that US needs us, they just give out equal oppurtunites.
you might wanna wash your face with cold water and get a life!!

 

[herodontist]

Don't ask me why I've been reading this board but I stumbled upon a thread and since then I have been struggling with my stance on the foreign trained dentist attempting to gain entrance into a US dental school with advanced standing.

I've read several threads and there seems to be a lot of competition for these spots at certain dental school. Some of the posters have apparently been trying for years. One stated that she had not practiced in 10 years.
In that time the person could have gone to undergrad and taking the DAT and gotten in just like any other american student. Probably cheaper as well when you consider the tuition these schools charge a FTD.

It seems to me that the motivation for these pursuits is financial. It is certainly not for the love of dentistry otherwise you would just set up practice in the country you were trained. There must certainly be a shortage of dentists with everyone trying to come to the states. How many FTD obtain a foreign degree without ever any intention of practicing in their respective country? I guarantee that if dentists made salaries in India(or wherever) that were the same or higher than the states, this forum would probably not exhist.

In my opinion, I don't think US dental school should allow this simply because we don't need dentists with foreign training. If there is a shortage in the US, just increase the class sizes. If you want to practice dentistry, stay in your country. If you want to practice in america why not go to undergrad and apply to dental school like everyone else. Otherwise I would like to see the admission standards much higher to ensure the best of the best are only allowed in the profession. Understand that I have nothing against foreign people or immigration. If anything it is nice having intelligent professionals coming in to this country. My problem is the motivation and a supply and demand issue.

Please enlighten me. I sure that there are aspects of this issue I could not possibly consider. Finally, I commend everyone for there hard work and apparent perserverence. Congradualation for those who get in because is a very satisfying and lucrative career.

Unlike some of the earlier posters, I do not think the OP is threatened by FTDs or has any reason to be. So I will make a genuine attempt to spell out the motivation issues.

Family is perhaps the most common motivation. People move here for spousal or similar reasons and find they need to go back to school to earn a living.

Financial reasons are extremely important, no doubt this forum would be less populous if dentistry in the states was not as highly paid. However, I argue that the pre-dental forum would be much less active too, so money is a common motivation across barriers of ethnicity or visa status. Perhaps the parameter you are groping for is quality of life, which, though closely related, is not the same as money. Money cannot buy you fresh air or intelligent company. Here I enter into realms of speculation, but people may move to the states for make up for the lack of such parameters.

A moot point is why take the advanced standing route and not apply to undergrad like everyone else. I believe the US has its own motivations for the existence of such programs.
One is to attract genuine talent. Intelligent professionals who bring a new perspective to the academia make the system richer and help it grow. This as the OP points out, requires high admission standards. Having gone through the process myself, I assure you that it is so. The competition is very stiff, and those who make it are indeed the best of the best.
The other reason is more sordid; in the face of decreasing GME funding, schools need the extra dollars that FTDs bring. Increasing the regular DDS/DMD class sizes would not bring in as much money. Hence the new advanced standing programs starting every year.

 

[godbless]

good posts by calily and herodontist
also a question for omfsres, how should we treat those non indians who come to india to study??

 

[omfsres]

hi omfsres,
are you really an OMFS? why r u so bitter, i tihnk you got beat by a FTD!!!!
when i read your post i was aggravated, so i am writing after a few hours. i wish fido, nilebds,fixensmiles too read your post n reply to u, we shal love to meet you actually!
if you think"the motivation for dentistry is financial"i shal not debate it coz this might be your motivation.
and YES salaries are more is states, so we are here too, who wudnt wanna make more money and live a better life?
and dental schools allow FTDs to study and work here coz US is an evolved country and respect democracy and everyone's right to highest education and a lucrative career based on merit.i feel sad for you and understand why you feel threatened little boy!!
and US welcomes us in this country coz they beleive in equal oppurtunity for everyone, people like u r very obscure, and US schools recognize and respect and appreciate the talent and competence FTDs bring in with them ,and so give us a chance, and this might actually should be a challenge for you to compete with us and prove yourself if you can!FTDs actually on an average score much more than you guys...........
and statement slike these"if you want to practise dentistry, stay in your country"are very undemocratic,provocative and irresponsible, as most of us have family here, citizenship here or american spouses , so we are as american as you are, and those of us who are on visas here will accquire the citizenship over a couple of years, as good as yours.
and as for your statemnt"we dunt need dentists with foreign training"........all countries in the world have gone global now, people freely migrate to other nations, and it is not that US needs us, they just give out equal oppurtunites.
you might wanna wash your face with cold water and get a life!!

I just wrote a huge response but It got erased somehow. Can't bring myself to retype it. As for those non indians who come to study in india, I would say the same things.

Herodontist points out so eloquently in type many of the ideas I have had concerning this issue. I didn't go into them only because I didn't want to influence the responses. But you were able to echo a lot of the feelings I've had.

 

[FIXENSMILES01]

I have deleted my own statement because it was unfair and unprofessional.

 

[swetha_dentist]

Let me say this , don't pay this jerkoff any attention

1st : We are here and whether he likes it or not he can't change it . That's got to
Hurt!

2nd: He will always have to face some type of FTD and what's more learn to
work with them.

3rd: Any schmuck who calls himself a boy genius and harbors these types of
opinions such as these , is no genius at all. I wont even mention the
fact that all his posts have a link with a bigoted , ignorant , chauvinistic and unintelligent cartoon. Some boy genius !

Conclusion: Life is going to dish this mental midget his just reward! I pray that it is in the form of a Director or chief fellow that has their roots from the FTD community.

We will respect his recant and apology and welcome him to join us in an intellectual dialogue as equals.

and by the way :

omfsres, If you don't support the FTDs and the system here in America, what do you have to say about me I am a Caucasian American who studied abroad . In fact I am one of 14 in my family who have done so and I am the first dental graduate. I would love to know where you are at and if you had a pair, you would pm me so I can do some research on you. Bye the way I am Sicilian/Irish from New York. So, you have nothing to say about issues that pertain to how many generations we have been here in America in relation to being FTDS. I have met plenty of punks like you before. You don't impress me.

what can we say hahhahahaha well done

 

[mkot]

dear Omfsres,
to add a new perspective to ur curiosity about the motiviation, etc. let me mention that i belong a family where everyone is a doctor, and from different specialities.

we have our own hospital and a thriving practice. My dad is one of the senior most oral and maxillofacial surgeons in my state and is known for his work.

U might ask why did i choose to leave the confines of a secure practice and come to an unknown land , USA..!

for u the obvious anwer might be money...but thats not the case. i already have a very comfortable lifestyle in my home country (touch-wood).

i chose to come here 'coz i like the manner in which the profession is approached here. it helps to work in an environment where the patients are aware of their dental needs. it is more satisfying to work here. money is a byproduct.

so, the motivation for each one of us is different...it would help if u have an open outlook about others perspectives... it doesnt help to have a narrow-minded thinking

motivation is a subjective issue. and even if the motivation is monetary...u just cannot ignore the presence of FTDs.

So , best thing for u to do would be to embrace ur FTD collegues...

Hope u have a better picture of the way FTDs think

mkot

 

[FIXENSMILES01]

dear Omfsres,
to add a new perspective to ur curiosity about the motiviation, etc. let me mention that i belong a family where everyone is a doctor, and from different specialities.

we have our own hospital and a thriving practice. My dad is one of the senior most oral and maxillofacial surgeons in my state and is known for his work.

U might ask why did i choose to leave the confines of a secure practice and come to an unknown land , USA..!

for u the obvious anwer might be money...but thats not the case. i already have a very comfortable lifestyle in my home country (touch-wood).

i chose to come here 'coz i like the manner in which the profession is approached here. it helps to work in an environment where the patients are aware of their dental needs. it is more satisfying to work here. money is a byproduct.

so, the motivation for each one of us is different...it would help if u have an open outlook about others perspectives... it doesnt help to have a narrow-minded thinking

motivation is a subjective issue. and even if the motivation is monetary...u just cannot ignore the presence of FTDs.

So , best thing for u to do would be to embrace ur FTD collegues...

Hope u have a better picture of the way FTDs think

mkot

well said my friend , I lost it , It is notmy nature to give in and lower myself but hey I am human and this "boy" got to me with his views. Thanks for your thoughts - Bill

 

[Lakambini19]

To Mr. PseudoEinstein,

With you posting his photo stating your idiosyncracy using Mr.Einstein legacy with it, I have to confess that as an immigrant himself to wit that he is the person of the millenium may find this insulting/quite be annoying, to find out that his philosophy is being regarded this way . Do I have to go any further?

What is the big fuss of an FTD who are here or will come here in the US using his skills & knowledge,intelligence &/or otherwise , be gainfully employed & earn money? The responses along with the commentary seems to me is also quite disturbing that not only it resonates the defensiveness of its voice but knowingly or unknowingly parallel in stigmatizing that being poor is being lazy therefore the society shun them or being colored people in racism. What is so wrong whether or not FTD's are here for the money? Can someone help me.Is it again the stigmatism that the Judeo-Christian propagation that money is the all source of evil? An Aetheist by choice & if at any rate I am here for the money, you will hear it directly from the horse's mouth . Now if given an opportunity in my condition right now Bill Gates will hire me to be a researcher or a personal wiper of his ass , & gave me a million bucks a year , do you think I should declined Mr. Gates? Or did I dare to ask your permission how I am going to spend my money? Arrogance at its best. There is nothing as noble as to be here for whatever purpose you are here for, & stop preaching me your hypocracy & its selective morality & follow you as an example or those who belong to the side of the fence who are purely not motivated by money but by the fallacy of the prestige that money can bring.
Across the globe any human being is entitled to pursue life,(posessession, & the pursuit of happiness ) not limiting the scope the lines that define the civilized world is marked but beyond otherwise the Constitution is in itself is a farce potrayal of democracy,as John Locke quoted, in as much as I would like to refer to Jefferson or one of the FFathers , stated this, is an unalienable rights given by its Creator (Nature: let us not go there).

One advice If I may or you can tell me to shove it, dare check on your family background, maybe at one time or another your descendants hail from wherever they came from , irregardless, came here for the same reason most of us are here for e.g.to advance that knowledge,state of living,greed, family or anything att all isn't it wise ,my good friend,to understand that it is none of your business att all. We are now here,good ,bad or indifferent, some of us we don't want to be here but stuck here for one reason unbeknownst to the world.Do I have to tell you why? NO.I have to give credit where credit is due from one Dr. at the other side of this board,when he stated that many of us FTP's are being conned by the govt. in believing its propagation across the globe the endless opportunity to deliberately attract the educated world by circumventing their needs that the US is in dire need of intelligent minds without telling us the whole agenda,the truth. This is a short caption of his entire message ,if I have the time to gave my answer to this post I should say that this is not even a part & parcel of what I am thinking about that an skeptical mind can even begin to wander nevertheless come up a reason resulting from an objective thinking.And for my own reason it is not the picture that I wanted to see neither I wanted to post.

UE/FTD/Phils

 

[ivorinedust]

Omfsres:

Many FTDs have been practicing for many years before they left their home country. That takes them up a couple of notches from someone who is entering dental school as a regular freshman, and knows virtually nothing about dentistry. Hence the IDP.

Financial gain may be the motivating factor for many, and I am sure it is the same for you. But think of it this way: It just happened that dentists are better paid than the rest of the population. It is not any FTD's, or your, fault. It's just that way. But I know of at least one FTD who treated underpriveledged patients in return for servile work--like painting his fence, for example. He claims that his fence has been painted at least ten times over the last couple of years. Omfsres, will you do a complicated odontectomy in exchange for a month's free yardwork?

Most FTDs are in this country by consequence. Many have left lucrative practices to be with family. Some have fled from war, oppression and threats. Also consider that these people may be pursuing practice in this country to give something back. FYI, most FTDs start out their practices by admitting Medical or some government sponsored dental care program. I know of at least two FTDs who have been doing that till they retired. Financial gain? Hardly.

I hope you have been enlightened by the responses of other SDNers, Omfsres. Dentistry is not all about money.

Ivorinedust

"Apolonia, relieve my toothache!"

 

[Lakambini19]

This controversy is universal as I gathered but more so here in the US compare to Europe.

I think I heard that story before.Sa atin nga TY lang.What is even very moving & touching when these patients comes back dalahan ka ng isang manok ,o kaya itlog,papaya ,gulay, when they needed this food more so than you do. The irrationality of being grateful.

Sabi nga doon sa other side of this board, people come here because they want to & they can .Nobody ask your opininon whether you like it or not.Llenroc is a med student .

This is so simple but hit it to the core.

 

[mayo]

Don't ask me why I've been reading this board but I stumbled upon a thread and since then I have been struggling with my stance on the foreign trained dentist attempting to gain entrance into a US dental school with advanced standing.

I've read several threads and there seems to be a lot of competition for these spots at certain dental school. Some of the posters have apparently been trying for years. One stated that she had not practiced in 10 years.
In that time the person could have gone to undergrad and taking the DAT and gotten in just like any other american student. Probably cheaper as well when you consider the tuition these schools charge a FTD.

It seems to me that the motivation for these pursuits is financial. It is certainly not for the love of dentistry otherwise you would just set up practice in the country you were trained. There must certainly be a shortage of dentists with everyone trying to come to the states. How many FTD obtain a foreign degree without ever any intention of practicing in their respective country? I guarantee that if dentists made salaries in India(or wherever) that were the same or higher than the states, this forum would probably not exhist.

In my opinion, I don't think US dental school should allow this simply because we don't need dentists with foreign training. If there is a shortage in the US, just increase the class sizes. If you want to practice dentistry, stay in your country. If you want to practice in america why not go to undergrad and apply to dental school like everyone else. Otherwise I would like to see the admission standards much higher to ensure the best of the best are only allowed in the profession. Understand that I have nothing against foreign people or immigration. If anything it is nice having intelligent professionals coming in to this country. My problem is the motivation and a supply and demand issue.

Please enlighten me. I sure that there are aspects of this issue I could not possibly consider. Finally, I commend everyone for there hard work and apparent perserverence. Congradualation for those who get in because is a very satisfying and lucrative career.

Guys!!! Give the man a break. Everybody is entitled to their opinion and he has stated where he stands. I think we should make an attempt to understand how he feels about a bunch of foreigners coming over to the US ostensibly for financial remuneration. Can you blame him?? Most probably he has never felt political persecution, looked starvation in the face or been separated from loved ones for ages.

His is not an inquiry borne of malice i should like to think, i would say that he made an effort to be polite (he did say please, he commended FTD members and Congratulated those who do get in) The man asked for enlightenment.

Suffice to say, he is concerned about the calibre of people that do come over to the States to partake of the dental cake. I think we have more than shown here that we are an intelligent bunch, who subscribe to the principles inherent in a merit based system. We are a very exposed bunch with indefatigable abilities, with strength of character to pursue our dreams (even when it requires such sacrifices as an advanced standing program would have us make).

However, we should not lose the moral high ground, we are a respectful bunch and will accord all members (friends and otherwise) their due respect, this i think speaks a lot to our maturity another quality that stands us apart from the regular DDS.

 

[herodontist]

Guys!!! Give the man a break. Everybody is entitled to their opinion and he has stated where he stands. I think we should make an attempt to understand how he feels about a bunch of foreigners coming over to the US ostensibly for financial remuneration. Can you blame him?? Most probably he has never felt political persecution, looked starvation in the face or been separated from loved ones for ages.

His is not an inquiry borne of malice i should like to think, i would say that he made an effort to be polite (he did say please, he commended FTD members and Congratulated those who do get in) The man asked for enlightenment.

Suffice to say, he is concerned about the calibre of people that do come over to the States to partake of the dental cake. I think we have more than shown here that we are an intelligent bunch, who subscribe to the principles inherent in a merit based system. We are a very exposed bunch with indefatigable abilities, with strength of character to pursue our dreams (even when it requires such sacrifices as an advanced standing program would have us make).

However, we should not lose the moral high ground, we are a respectful bunch and will accord all members (friends and otherwise) their due respect, this i think speaks a lot to our maturity another quality that stands us apart from the regular DDS.

Good post

 

[Sexydentist]

Hey ,

I think everyone is entitled to an opinion.......I liked the posts by Herodontist,Mkot and Mayo..I don't think ofmsres ...is threatened by us FTD's he is just curious to see why we would actually go through all that we do to be able to practice in this country.

The satisfaction of practicing dentistry here ..............is a whole new experience .....I would say challenging but fulfilling.

SD