MPH Glut and Jobs

[Coastie]

Are there too many MPHs and too few jobs?

Are MPHs from most schools worthless, leading to only debt and no jobs, saddling it's holder forever? (Much like JD's).

There seems to be so many people with massive student loans now-a-days, and I was wondering what the market for MPHs is like. I'm a resident, and trying to advise a close friend who is thinking about getting an MPH for "increased job opportunities".

Thanks.

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[ImPublicHealthy]

Are there too many MPHs and too few jobs?

Are MPHs from most schools worthless, leading to only debt and no jobs, saddling it's holder forever? (Much like JD's).

There seems to be so many people with massive student loans now-a-days, and I was wondering what the market for MPHs is like. I'm a resident, and trying to advise a close friend who is thinking about getting an MPH for "increased job opportunities".

Thanks.

Public Health is actually cited to be one of the hottest growing fields and employment demand is expected to significantly increase over the next 10 years (although, there are also more people going into this field now than ever).
It is by no means a worthless degree. Pay varies by area and sector, but many PH jobs pay quite well (especially within biostats/epi/health management and administration).
I know many PH graduates, all of whom have found jobs (and, many who went on to PhD/MD programs).
But, I also don't think this is a field you go into because you want to make lots of money...
If your friend has a passion for a particular aspect of public health, then it's worth it.

 

[Stories]

Coastie, if you really think JDs have no job options, I feel like you are far too tunnel visioned to have a good look at the job market. Yes, the job market sucks for JDs, just as it sucks for anyone with a finance, accounting, marketing, journalism, advertising, public relations, (shall I go on?) degree. That's just the nature of the beast when your job depends on the market.

I just had a friend who landed a job with Skadden law firm in Boston. That's well into the mid-$100k range. I don't know who you're talking to that have $30k jobs as lawyers (especially if they are barred).

In a field like public health, which is an essential service (at the government level), there will never be a hiring freeze. Several states, while in hiring freezes, continue to hire health professionals across the entire spectrum--because it is an essential service.

 

[Coastie]

The vast majority of JDs have terrible job options. Even big law (like skadden) are dropping associates like flies and folding up shop. The law schools continue to pump out lawyers and expand without end, charging extremely high tuition.


The bimodal distribution of jd salaries for first year associates spike @ 160k for big law (10%), 110-150k for midlaw (10-15%), and the rest are somewhere around 30-50k for small law and doc review, the latter of which is now being shipped in droves overseas. Tuition continues to spiral, most well into 6 figures in debt.

The law profession has been like this for a while, and it continues to be destroyed. Definitely a bad time to be in law school, unless you're at a top one, and even then, nothing is guaranteed.

Coastie, if you really think JDs have no job options, I feel like you are far too tunnel visioned to have a good look at the job market. Yes, the job market sucks for JDs, just as it sucks for anyone with a finance, accounting, marketing, journalism, advertising, public relations, (shall I go on?) degree. That's just the nature of the beast when your job depends on the market.

I just had a friend who landed a job with Skadden law firm in Boston. That's well into the mid-$100k range. I don't know who you're talking to that have $30k jobs as lawyers (especially if they are barred).

In a field like public health, which is an essential service (at the government level), there will never be a hiring freeze. Several states, while in hiring freezes, continue to hire health professionals across the entire spectrum--because it is an essential service.

 

[Calvdart]

One of the benefits of a JD is it's carryover into careers other than law. Possessing a JD signals that one has a wide set of skills around logic, communication, research etc. If someone can't find a job as a lawyer they can leverage the JD to find other well paying work. I don't believe that this is the case with an MPH...

Is your friend also a resident? It seems to me that an MPH would only be handy to an MD/DO who is looking to do community level or maybe management type of work. I don't think the MPH is necessary to do this type of stuff but it might open a few more doors. But from an economic standpoint, I don't think it's really going to provide any boost in pay levels for someone who already possesses a doctorate level degree.

 

[klm7552]

The vast majority of JDs have terrible job options. Even big law (like skadden) are dropping associates like flies and folding up shop. The law schools continue to pump out lawyers and expand without end, charging extremely high tuition.


The bimodal distribution of jd salaries for first year associates spike @ 160k for big law (10%), 110-150k for midlaw (10-15%), and the rest are somewhere around 30-50k for small law and doc review, the latter of which is now being shipped in droves overseas. Tuition continues to spiral, most well into 6 figures in debt.

The law profession has been like this for a while, and it continues to be destroyed. Definitely a bad time to be in law school, unless you're at a top one, and even then, nothing is guaranteed.

I don't exactly think going for an MPH is comparable to going for a law degree.....at all. unless you are going for a joint degree, why are you bringing up this argument? JDs have a much higher salary range than a person with an MPH degree, that is certain. the job market sucks for everyone right now. hopefully that will change in a few years.

they often toss around the statistic that 60% of the public health field will be retiring in the next 10 years, but they came up with that number before everyone's 401k evaporated, so some are probably postponing retirement. that said, the NIH just received a lot of money so hopefully research will have more funding.

 

[Coastie]

One of the benefits of a JD is it's carryover into careers other than law. Possessing a JD signals that one has a wide set of skills around logic, communication, research etc. If someone can't find a job as a lawyer they can leverage the JD to find other well paying work. I don't believe that this is the case with an MPH...

Is your friend also a resident? It seems to me that an MPH would only be handy to an MD/DO who is looking to do community level or maybe management type of work. I don't think the MPH is necessary to do this type of stuff but it might open a few more doors. But from an economic standpoint, I don't think it's really going to provide any boost in pay levels for someone who already possesses a doctorate level degree.

JD's don't lateral into other fields. Believe me. There is a massive glut, and my buddy (who is a JD, now that you ask) is so fed up with the law market (he is a laid-off biglaw associate) that he wants another degree, no med school, so mph was a thought.

 

[Calvdart]

JD's don't lateral into other fields. Believe me. There is a massive glut, and my buddy (who is a JD, now that you ask) is so fed up with the law market (he is a laid-off biglaw associate) that he wants another degree, no med school, so mph was a thought.

You can use a JD to lateral into business fields with little to no problem. Consulting firms pick up JDs due to training in logic and thinking about a problem from a certain viewpoint. A degree does not necessarily equal a specific job.

I would suggest that your friend apply for health related jobs that he/she is interested in. If they all require an MPH then it might be something worth doing. If they do not specifically say MPH 100% necessary then I would try to convince them that the JD covers enough of the skill set that they are looking for and attempt to harness that degree instead.

 

[Stories]

JD's don't lateral into other fields. Believe me. There is a massive glut, and my buddy (who is a JD, now that you ask) is so fed up with the law market (he is a laid-off biglaw associate) that he wants another degree, no med school, so mph was a thought.

Your JD buddy isn't the only one getting laid off in this economy 🙄.

 

[frali]

as far as i have heard, the healthcare industry has not seem much of a decline, in fact its quite strong. i could be mistaken but I am not worried so much about paying back student loans in time

 

[eljusticiero67]

hi all, about 6 months ago, I was set on attending an MPH program. i got into a good one (Emory-- GH), but I was actually really hoping for UW GH. partially because I didn't get into my top choice, I am thinking of not going anymore because of the loans situation and the resulting job prospects. i got a pittance in financial aid 4K (is that normal btw-- it seems abnormally low) and I dont like the idea of having so much loans and then enter a job market that pays on average around 45K. What are other people thinking? Everyone going for just an MPH is in the same boat-- how are all of you reconciling these things?

 

[Stories]

hi all, about 6 months ago, I was set on attending an MPH program. i got into a good one (Emory-- GH), but I was actually really hoping for UW GH. partially because I didn't get into my top choice, I am thinking of not going anymore because of the loans situation and the resulting job prospects. i got a pittance in financial aid 4K (is that normal btw-- it seems abnormally low) and I dont like the idea of having so much loans and then enter a job market that pays on average around 45K. What are other people thinking? Everyone going for just an MPH is in the same boat-- how are all of you reconciling these things?

I had a couple of buddies who graduated from BU's IH (international health) program, but were facing the difficulties of having to face loans + lower paying jobs. The simple matter of the fact is, GH/IH is a tough field to break into and once you do get in, it's not a high paying field simply because so much of the work is done on a humanitarian level where there isn't a lot of money to go around. However, there are loan forgiveness programs out there, and more and more are popping up. Keep your eyes peeled.

I don't know how true this is, but my friend told me that the majority of folks who came into the MPH immediately after undergrad are facing tough GH/IH job decisions because a lot of organizations ask for a minimum of 2 years experience. Those without those two years of experience often choose to do 2 years of unpaid work (albeit internationally and traveling in the process) before embarking on paid careers.

However, don't let the debt kill your dreams of pursuing your ideal employment--money is just money, after all. Would you really be happy in another career? You spend 60% of your waking hours working, and if you don't have that career you want, what the hell is the point? At least, that's my point of view.

 

[frali]

This is my philosophy. I am going to be in a lot of debt like everyone else when I graduate but I believe that graduate school is a great investment. You will be able to work in a field you love (hopefully) and also no one can take your education away from you. You WILL find a job and you WILL be able to pay your loans, however long it takes. Your education becomes a part of who you are.

However, don't let the debt kill your dreams of pursuing your ideal employment--money is just money, after all. Would you really be happy in another career? You spend 60% of your waking hours working, and if you don't have that career you want, what the hell is the point? At least, that's my point of view.

 

[Ressig]

This is my philosophy. I am going to be in a lot of debt like everyone else when I graduate but I believe that graduate school is a great investment. You will be able to work in a field you love (hopefully) and also no one can take your education away from you. You WILL find a job and you WILL be able to pay your loans, however long it takes. Your education becomes a part of who you are.

Well put, frali. I agree 100%.

 

[newyorkisrainin]

hate to be the dissenting voice (and keep in mind i'm just a first year) but - programs are expensive and generally i've yet to be impressed that without a clear directive students will be guided towards a better career path than without the mph.

I may be pessimistic but i really don't think an mph is in any way a career-maker. I really like school, and am happy doing what i'm doing but still have a hard time justifying the cost. Unless you are pretty sure about a PhD or want to be and MD/MPH I would honestly not invest so much in what could be learned being independently motivated supplanted with a class or two - and i think most positions that only ask for an mph reflect this fact.

the caveat of course is that if you are sure this is what you want don't let money stop you. good luck.

 

[Stories]

hate to be the dissenting voice (and keep in mind i'm just a first year) but - programs are expensive and generally i've yet to be impressed that without a clear directive students will be guided towards a better career path than without the mph.

I may be pessimistic but i really don't think an mph is in any way a career-maker. I really like school, and am happy doing what i'm doing but still have a hard time justifying the cost. Unless you are pretty sure about a PhD or want to be and MD/MPH I would honestly not invest so much in what could be learned being independently motivated supplanted with a class or two - and i think most positions that only ask for an mph reflect this fact.

the caveat of course is that if you are sure this is what you want don't let money stop you. good luck.

There are certain paths in public health which require MPHs. Most state epidemiologist positions require a MPH. While not mandatory, the vast majority of federal epidemiologists also need a MPH.

 

[newyorkisrainin]

There are certain paths in public health which require MPHs. Most state epidemiologist positions require a MPH. While not mandatory, the vast majority of federal epidemiologists also need a MPH.

this is true but i'm thinking more long-term - to progress to a position of leadership or independent research more than an mph is necessary (generally). It's no coincidence that most mph positions pay 40-55k (which is not bad by any means but we're generally paying the same costs as an MBA degree whose graduates are mostly predicted to make a much larger average salary; the cost is not something to accept without clear consideration)

 

[Stories]

this is true but i'm thinking more long-term - to progress to a position of leadership or independent research more than an mph is necessary (generally). It's no coincidence that most mph positions pay 40-55k (which is not bad by any means but we're generally paying the same costs as an MBA degree whose graduates are mostly predicted to make a much larger average salary; the cost is not something to accept without clear consideration)

Well, to be fair, though, ANY professional degree that is approximately two-years is the same cost at just about every university in the country. So whether it's a MSW, MPH, MBA, MPA, MFA, etc. the cost is similar despite a discrepancy in pay outcome. Schools don't discriminate on pay outcome, they discriminate on time at school 😛

But if you're looking leadership or independent research, they both require different things. You can get to be in a leadership role without even a college degree, and for independent research you typically need a academic doctoral level degree, or a professional doctoral degree supplemented with a research-based masters.

 

[newyorkisrainin]

Well, to be fair, though, ANY professional degree that is approximately two-years is the same cost at just about every university in the country. So whether it's a MSW, MPH, MBA, MPA, MFA, etc. the cost is similar despite a discrepancy in pay outcome. Schools don't discriminate on pay outcome, they discriminate on time at school 😛

But if you're looking leadership or independent research, they both require different things. You can get to be in a leadership role without even a college degree, and for independent research you typically need a academic doctoral level degree, or a professional doctoral degree supplemented with a research-based masters.

Indeed there are similar costs for most two year professional graduate programs, however, I was using the MBA example as a benchmark comparison to the original question of debt and "increased job opportunities" - I believe most would compare the MPH less favorably to the benefits allowed by an MBA. I'm not as familiar with the job opportunities of MSW, MFA, etc., but cost-benefit questions could be asked of them as well I'm sure.

The value versus the cost of any graduate degree is somewhat subjective - I was only trying to point out that the very significant costs of an MPH (generally paid for with loans) should not be taken on lightly with the automatic expectation of a large amount of new, higher paying job opportunities.

Just based on a quick online search - the average debt for masters degree students who take out loans is 26,895 while the average salary for a MPH-ers seems to range from about 40-70k which probably also reflects a range of professional and educational experience. It may just be me, but I do think almost 30k in loans should be cause for an individual to deliberate on the true value of the degree (especially in regards to future earnings).

While for many it will be worth it to take out loans they may be paying back for 15-20 years but let's not deny that these are the financial realities.

(also i think everyone acknowledges that leadership and research positions have different qualities and may be found through different paths - i was only pointing out traits that I think most would look for or expect in jobs they pursued after furthering their education).