MS vs Post bacc

BU Medical Sciences
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Originally posted by Morima
I already have master's degree in quasi science (environmental management =some biology, chemistry, statistics etc.) Do you think it's still better for me (to be pre-med) to pursue MS or MPH than doing 1-year post-bacc pre-med program?
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Hi Morima,

I think it depends on what your GPA was in your graduate program. If it was 3.7 or higher, then you're probably OK with everything else being competitive (ec's, MCAT, ect). If not, then an MS in a hard core science like biochemistry or molecular biology will definitely help. Also keep in mind that if you didn't do too well in your most recent graduate program, quite a few schools will not look at your application too favorably. It may be wise to let a few years go by between your most recent grad program and the next one if you find yourself in this situation.

As for the inorganic chemistry vs general chemistry debate, I took 3 semesters of general chemistry and 1 semeser of advanced inorganic chemistry as required for a BA in Chemistry and for admittance into an MS Chemistry program. My entire general chemistry sequence was equivalent to about the the first 4 weeks of advanced inorganic chemsitry. The rest was learning all of the important compounds formed from every inorganic element on the periodic chart!
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Originally posted by gooloogooloo
what can u do after graduating from a MPH program? where can you find a job other than public sector? i believe the option for MS in science is wider than MPH outside public sector.
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Hi Goo,

I, for obivious reasons, agree with this. Today I'm interviewing for a position at a major phramaceutical company with a starting salary of between 63K and 68K. While the position requires extensive use of epidemiology and SAS, the MPH was NOT listed as the "prerequisite" degree for consideration for this job.

Just something to think about...................
 
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Originally posted by gooloogooloo
what can u do after graduating from a MPH program? where can you find a job other than public sector? i believe the option for MS in science is wider than MPH outside public sector.
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Yes, by it's very nature the Master's of Public Health is aimed at public organizations. So public sector work is the biggest employer for MPH grads, with the notable exception of the insurance/HMO/hospital businesses. Some people like this. Some people don't.
 
Originally posted by Adcadet
Interesting stats (the Yale one).

But, if I had wanted to make money, I sure wouldn't be going into medicine.
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Amen to that!! But it will be nice to put a few dollars away until I start!
 
Originally posted by ItNeverEnds
According to US News, MPH graduates fresh out of grad school can expect to make $40-75K/year.

Check out these websites for salary info and current job listings for MPH degree holders:

http://cfusion.sph.emory.edu/PHEC/phec.cfm

http://info.med.yale.edu/eph/ocs/page36.html
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someone has posted this before, and i have to comment again that these numbers are VERY high. it's VERY hard to be fresh out and make more than $50,000. this is in the bay area, so i assume salaries are lower in much of the rest of the country. sure, you can make a decent salary at a pharmaceutical company or doing private consulting, but it's not the norm for people to go these routes as it sort of goes against having a "public" health degree. please no flames for that. it's just an attitude i picked up on while in public health school.

one more thing: take in mind that many of these people who are fresh out of mph programs are not 24 years old. many have years and years of work experience, thus they will make higher salaries than the average 24 year old fresh out of an mph program.

also, you will have a very difficult time making a good salary straightaway unless you want to do something technical like data analysis. if you want to do health education or work with people, forget it. you will not make good money. maybe after 5 or 10 years of work your salary will be decent.

so here i am off on a tangent again. as for the original debate, i think it's very hard to come to a consensus. it really depends on the person's situation.
 
okay, for some reason I can't seem to get your quote to come up right so adcadets quote......

"I agree that general chem is not any more inorganic chemistry any more than general chemistry is organic chemistry. But med schools have a strange way of shifting your view of the world. For example, a professor of epidemiology is only a science professor if he/she has taught you in a course that ends in "ology." Similarly, a professor who you do science research with isn't a science professor unless you take an "ology" from him/her. But a LOR from a TA who taugth you in an "ology" is entirely unacceptable at most schools. And apparently the supervisor of your master's thesis isn't nearly as qualified to speak about your ability to study and practice medicine as the physics professor you had your first year of college. And of course that first year physics prof is a much better position to recommend you for a medical school that the Professor of Medicine who supervises your translational research. And your volunteer coordinator's opinion of you means nothing if it's not on official letterhead, even if the organization doesn't have any for that person, and strictly prohibits that person from using their official letterhead."


I LOVE IT!!!:laugh: isn't that the truth!!
 
Just thought this thread deserves a bump. Kim (pathdr2b) makes many excellent points.

Originally posted by pathdr2b
There's been a lot of talk on the threads lately about ways to make ones' application to medical school more competitive.

Having done a year as a post bacc and completed an MS in Chemistry, I think I am able to introduce the topic and comment intelligently.

I'd agrue that getting an MS IN A HARD CORE SCIENCE like Molecular Biology or Biochemistry is a better option for the following reasons:

1) Graduate schools force you to maintain a "B" average to graduate and at some schools, you can get no less than a "B" in any class. This worked very well for me.

2) You may be able to take medical school classes as a part of the requirements for the degree. When you do well, this is another "feather" in your cap since you'll be showing you can compete with medical students!

3) If you're planning on being an MD that does research AND your graduate program trains you well, you've already have a some idea of what it takes to do research successfully.

4) It's a perfect "fall back" if you're never admitted to medical school. After getting my MS, I worked at a pharamaceutical company for 2 years and was "paid"!!!!! I'm talking serious "benjamins" here!!!!

5) Most importantly, because I finished from a top notch chemistry program, 90% of the adcoms I've spoken with have been more than willing to forgive my undergraduate years. Also, a few of them were alumnae/i of this school or personally knew my PI and that definitely helped!

If you choose this option, here's some advice I think is helpful for those considering a full-time MS program:

1) Don't enter a PhD program with the plan to leave with only a Master's degree for the purposes of getting into medical school. There are plenty of "terminal" MS programs out there that can supply tuition and a stipend ( I had a scholarship, tuition remission and a very good stipend). Also your transcript will read PhD student semester 1 and 2 - graduate MS in X. People may see this as a PhD student that failed and now wants to go to medical school even if that was not the case.

2) This will probably be you're last chance to do well, so don't blow it!

3) Attend a school that has a medical school. Go by the admissions office to let them know what you're planning to do, in other words, NETWORK!!!!!

4) Take a course or two with medical students. This did wonders for my self-esteem since it's nice knowing I really can "hang"!!!!

5) Pick an area of reseach that really interests you - This will make it easier for you to have something to say on your personal statement and is always a good interview topic since you know it so well. I choose to do research in Sickle Cell disease for my MS and was actually asked to explain it on a job interview. Needless to say, I got the job!

6) DO NOT SEEK OUTSIDE EMPLOYMENT DURING YOUR MS PROGRAM! More often than not you'll be able to get a stipend that will more than provide enough for you to live on comfortably. You can also get student loans. I completed my program as a "seperated" parent in 1.5 years so if I could do it without "outside" employment, so can you!!!!

Good Luck and since this site has been most helpful in helping me stay focused and motivated, I'd be happy to help anyone considering the MS option.

Kim
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Bump
 
So back to post-bacc vs. MS...:)

If my sole intent is to increase my GPA, or at least prove myself to adcoms that my undergrad GPA in no way reflects my true abilities, which is better...

1. MS program in hard core science (physiology, biochem, neuro...), and taking on the added expense of tuition/relocation costs
2. Free "do-it-yourself "post-bac at the academic institution I work for (which has a med school)

i have no interest in obtaining an MPH.

I'm leaning towards the free post-bacc, but are there other compelling reasons to pursue the MS, other than making money? I'm not sure what I should do?

Nina
 
If your goal is solely to improve your GPA for AAMCAS, go to medical school and practice as a physician, then #2 sounds like the best option.

If you're thinking about some type of academic medicine career, then you should think more seriously about #1.

Originally posted by nina512
So back to post-bacc vs. MS...:)

If my sole intent is to increase my GPA, or at least prove myself to adcoms that my undergrad GPA in no way reflects my true abilities, which is better...

1. MS program in hard core science (physiology, biochem, neuro...), and taking on the added expense of tuition/relocation costs
2. Free "do-it-yourself "post-bac at the academic institution I work for (which has a med school)

i have no interest in obtaining an MPH.

I'm leaning towards the free post-bacc, but are there other compelling reasons to pursue the MS, other than making money? I'm not sure what I should do?

Nina
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Most applicants to medical school don't get in. You could get a great job with a MS making very decent money until you decided to reapply to medical school. Obiviously, I'm biased since I have the MS but I feel much more confident about my application to medical school for the 2004 class. I didn't have the same "feeling" after finishing a post-bacc.
 
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Thanks for the input guys.

I've got a lot to think about. I'll run it by my boss...see what she thinks about me taking classes during the work week. Also, I'll look up some MS programs...preferably non-thesis (never know how long a thesis could take)

Who knows? I may still get in this year. Although, I haven't gotten any interviews or rejections yet (app complete on turkey-day!)

Thanks again!
N
 
bump
 
Someone mentioned in an earlier post that the masters of medical sci programs are crap. I've heard so much about them and particularly about the ones at Boston u and at finch in chicago. They're supposedly super stressful and I was wondering if anyone has insight as to how these programs compare with masters programs in a hard core science. Also, what kind of a gpa do you need to get into a masters program in a hard core science?
 
Oregon state requires a 3.0 to apply to the chemistry graduate program...of course being able to apply doesn't mean you're accepted. As with most programs, those letters of req. and GRE count for something. The graduate program at Oregon state comes with a stipend and full tuition waiver with acceptance to the program. Hope this helps
 
Bump!
 
AFter much thought...I've decided to pursue the masters.
My reasons...
1. I can still apply to med school (doesn't hurt my app)
2. If I like the research, transfering to their grad program wouldn't be difficult
3. If I find myself not getting in right away, I can get a decent job with a decent salary because I can put MS after my name (not that I would...I'd rather let everyone assume I have a PhD hehe :laugh:

With a post-bacc, I wouldn't have options 2 and 3.

I feel so much better having come to a decision!
 
Congradulations on making a decision! As you may know, applicants with MS degrees have a slightly higher acceptance rate to medical school. And as for the "letters behind your name" here at NCI ALL degrees are recognized, including MS. All of my job correspondence has MS behind my name as is standard protocal here. So when you get those hard earned letters, use them!
 
Bump
 
This is an interesting thread because I find myself in the position of trying to determine which program I should enter. First I'll give you kids some quick background. My GPA is a meager 2.7. I didn't do a heck of a lot of work at my undergrad but after 2 years in the real world I know what I want and how to get there. I have been involved in biomedical research for those 2 years, have a few publications pending and one of which I will be mentioned as first author. After speaking with many advisors as well as adcoms, the consensus is that a pos-bac would be the best route.

If you have a low UGPA like mine, adcoms will not dismiss it just because you have a nice graduate GPA. Adcoms want to see that you addressed the UGPA, for that stat will determine how competitive you are with other undergrads. The reason adcoms are so concerned with one's UGPA is that grad schools tend to inflate grades. This does not mean that it's easier to get good grades in grad school, just that the system is a little different. A "C" in grad school is tantamount to a "F" or "D" as an undergrad.

So, in determining which is best I think it really depends on one's situation. If you're GPA>3.2 then a master's would be a good idea. If your GPA<3.0, a post-bac will most likely serve you best.

Feel free to correct me on any of these points. My conclusions are based on conversations with advisors and adcom's from a small number of institutions, so any factual input to provide insight would be greatly appreciated.

Peace


Tooth
 
Originally posted by TiggidyTooth
So, in determining which is best I think it really depends on one's situation. If you're GPA>3.2 then a master's would be a good idea. If your GPA<3.0, a post-bac will most likely serve you best.Tooth
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Having done a post-bacc and an MS, I guess I think the MS has served me best for a number of reasons:

1) You're right in thinking that some adcoms think grades earned in grad school are inflated. That's pretty much what Hopkins has said. But schools like Harvard, Columbia, Penn, Howard, Cornell, Duke, the list goes on and on, told me personally that the MS GPA is the reason I'll have a shot with good MCAT scores. I should also mention that my undergrad GPA is well below 3.0.

2) I made over 50K with the MS degree while contemplating reapplying to medical school. I recently turned down a job paying 68K. This woud NOT have been possible without the advanced degree.

3) Postbacc programs that guarentee admission to medical school are the exception. Unfortunately, it seems to me that post-bacc programs just want your money and could care less if you're ever admitted to medical school.

4) Applicancts with MS degrees have a slightly higher rate of acceptance to medical school than those without. Also as an MSTP applicant for 2004, I've already shown that I understand what's involved in research at an advanced level.

5) Lastly and most important for me, the MS program has proven to be instrumental in my preparation for the MCAT. The constant reading of journal articles is great preparation for the verbal section of the test. The MCAT is also more about critical thinking which is an absolute must to effectively defend a master's thesis.

Thanks tooth for a great debate! It's always good to give differing opinions!
 
Pathdr2b

Thanks for the input.

You mentioned that you already completed a post-bac. So the UGPA in your case has already been addressed. Have you already attempted to gain acceptance into medical school unsuccessfully? If that's the case then a master's degree would seem like the appropriate choice considering you circumstances. Although your cum ugpa is low is it not the case that you had significant improvement in your post-bac.

Statistically, applicants with master's degrees may have a slightly higher acceptance rate than people straight out of college, this is probably expected, but this is not representative of a significant difference between completing a master's degree or a post-bac because usually the post-bac population has been out of school for a little while and can be lumped in the much broader group of all undergraduates. A better analysis would be between those completing post-bacs and gaining acceptance to those completing a master's program. However, any kind of relationship would still be trivialized due to the uncertainty of the post-bac students background. I'd expect a lot more variability in past academic history compared to the master's student.

Although money is important, money should not guide the course as to the appropriate course to achieve the dream if it is not feesible to stay on the straightest shot to the goal.

pathdr2b, I'm assuming you are working for a biotech firm. In your view, is this a better or just as good of a road to take instead of participating in academic research? Are you still able to publish?

Thanks and I wish you the best of luck.

Tooth
 
I'm a little concerned to hear that adcoms think grad school grades are inflated. In my experience (in economics), a normal distribution is far more common in grad than in undergraduate work. My grades are E(xcellent), G(ood), and S(atisfactory) (which, yes, is ABC/Honors-High Pass-Pass any way you slice it), but a competent graduate student is expected to get a G and be proud of it. E's are rare. (I wish I could tell adcoms how rare E's are at my school.) Equating a G in graduate school to a C or even a B in undergraduate is ridiculous. But I can't speak for other discipline's programs ...

BTW, the money question will be determined by the discipline. That is, is the discipline related to a wealthy industry, eg, pharma, chem E, comp sci, engineering? Very few econ MA's are funded by the department.
 
Originally posted by TiggidyTooth

Although your cum ugpa is low is it not the case that you had significant improvement in your post-bac.Tooth
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Tooth: I applied to medical school BEFORE I had completed a post-bacc which in retrospect was a dumb thing to do considering my GPA (I had a slightly above average MCAT). I did significantly improve my GPA (which wasn't hard to do from a undergrad gpa of 2.3)

Originally posted by TiggidyTooth

pathdr2b, I'm assuming you are working for a biotech firm. In your view, is this a better or just as good of a road to take instead of participating in academic research? Are you still able to publish?Tooth
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I left a position in industry for a 1 year fellowship at the National Cancer Institute last March. I'm considering renewing for another year and yes you can still work in industry and publish. I was 1st author on 2 abstracts and have my name on 2 other articles.

I don't know which is really better because I took the job in industry with the intent of getting a PhD part-time (Yes folks, there are programs like these out there). After working there for 2 years I knew I really wanted to go to medical school so I left for the NIH/NCI. I haven't looked back once since I made this DRASTIC financial move.

As for grad inflation, I take those comments with a grain of salt. I KNOW that the Chemistry dept at Chapel Hill is one of the best in the country and as I went to grad school with husband and baby in tow, I can ASSURE adcoms I earned the 3.7 AMCAS GPA I got.
 
bump
 
i'll give you 3 guesses as to what pathdr2b's favorite thread is, but you're only gonna need one. ;)

hehe...just teasing you a little, path. bump away! :p
 
Originally posted by Sweet Tea
i'll give you 3 guesses as to what pathdr2b's favorite thread is, but you're only gonna need one. ;)

hehe...just teasing you a little, path. bump away! :p
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Yeah I guess I like this thread just a little but mainly to keep some of the folks on SDN from going through what I did when I didn't get in the first time. It's not fun being left "without a chair when the music stops playing"!!!;)
 
I'm finishing a post-bacc program this semester, and I am still debating whether or not to do an MS. . .Your reasons are all very legitimate, and the $60K starting salary definitely appeals to me. . .It seems as though I've missed quite a few deadlines though :(

I wanted to know which programs have the tuition remission or fellowship that you mentioned before because I am BROKE!! My post-bacc stats are stellar, though I haven't taken the GRE. I would consider relocating if I could get the money situation squared away. Any advice???

Thank you.
:D
 
Originally posted by Jamaican MD
I wanted to know which programs have the tuition remission or fellowship that you mentioned before because I am BROKE!! My post-bacc stats are stellar, though I haven't taken the GRE. I would consider relocating if I could get the money situation squared away. Any advice???
Thank you.
:D
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First, pick a school that either has a medical school is is strongly associated with one (For example, University of Maryland Baltimore county has many good Ms programs.)

Second, decide BEFORE you meet with ANYONE or send in an application the type of research you may want to do. You'll come off as more sincere and enjoy the program alot more. Select about 5 or so potential PI's

Third, when you've found people doing the research you like, set up a meeting with them to discuss your plans and BE HONEST. Some PI's will reject you immediately because you're not interested in the PhD so just move on to the next person on your list.

Forth, you may have to "find your own money" which means the PI may require that you work with them in submitting a grant to support your stipend which is no big deal.

I didn't mention this before, but I had to foot the bill for my first semester in Grad school. I looked at it as an investment in my future which definitely paid off.

Good Luck!
 
Just curious,
I have an unaceptable gpa for my undergrad and was considering a Master's program, but they all seem to require taking the GRE and I figured thet would not give me the time of day (cosidering). What are the odds of getting into a master's program with bad grades and is the GRE anything like the MCAT? Allow me to thank you in advance for your input!

Nelvi~
 
Originally posted by gonnabedoc
Just curious,
I have an unaceptable gpa for my undergrad and was considering a Master's program, but they all seem to require taking the GRE and I figured thet would not give me the time of day (cosidering). What are the odds of getting into a master's program with bad grades and is the GRE anything like the MCAT? Allow me to thank you in advance for your input!
Click to expand...

I got into grad school with "bad" grades, but I kicked as$ on the GRE. Grad schools don't care much about MCAT scores and I wouldn't mention having an MCAT score when I applied.

The GRE is not that bad but it's NOTHING like the MCAT. If you think you're going to have trouble, take a cheap prep course. It certainily helped me.
 
Nina515-
Just wanted you to be aware, some med schools will require you to finsh your Masters before matricalating.
 
ssh,

That is something I'm aware of. Nothing is worse that getting "stuck" in a program longer than you anticipated. THe program I'm applying to is meant to be completed in one year. Also you can choose between a bench-work thesis or lit-search one.

I'm so grateful for this thread!
 
Nina, what program are you applying to?
 
Bump
 
I'm applying for an MS in Neurobiology and Physiology (you choose which track) at Northwestern

I guess the only downside is the cost. But it's something I've come to terms with over time. Since it is only a one year program, I'm saving money compared to traditional two year programs at other private institutuions. The program also requires (or strongly encourages) that applicants have previous research experience. THe program seems to be exactly what I'm looking for--an MS at an accelerated pace. I have already spent three years in the lab and submitted 1 paper, so I know sorta how things work. I wish I would have started a masters program when I finished college and I'd have my degree by now

...but alas...hindsight is always 20/20

hope this helps
Nina
 
Nina: After you finish the degree, I'm sure you'll find the first year of medical school a little easier because of your degree porgram.

Remember it won't be easy to maintain "B' average but this is "practice" for medical school.

Congradulations again......


Nina512, M.S.

:clap: :clap:
 
pathdr2b,

You make an interesting case for getting a MS versus a post-baac. I was wondering why you even bothered doing a post-baac if you felt it was better to do an MS. Or maybe you think it's better to do both? As mentioned somewhere earlier in this thread, the post-baac would be good for those that need to boost their science GPA. I would think the post-baac is a good route to take for those who have never taken any of the premed requirements. However, I'm wondering for those that have low undergrad GPAs and have not done taken any premed requirements...would it be a good idea to do both a post-baac and an MS? Or is a post-baac really enough?
 
Originally posted by neofight
pathdr2b,
I was wondering why you even bothered doing a post-baac if you felt it was better to do an MS.
Click to expand...

I did the postbacc BEFORE the MS so I couldn't know before hand which was better. That's the reascon I started this thread to keep people from wasting money as I did.

For folks with both a low undergrad GPA and no premed prereqs I'd say do both. In some Master's programs, you can take undergraduate classes (premed prereqs) until you get "qualified" to take grad courses but this isn't very common. At most you're looking at 3 years which I think would be worth it to get into medical school.
 
Thanks all for your replies. They have been most helpful!
 
Okay, you guys may think that I'm nuts for doing this but........

My UG GPA was low ~2.5 and I applied to a 2 year MPH program. I graduate in May. I took a couple of prereqs in undergrad (about 7 years ago) which I have to take over because I didn't complete the sequence before my school changed from quarters to semesters. I have been reviewing the basics for the prereq classes for a little while. I began taking BY and G-Chem this semester. I will complete all of the prereqs by Spring '04.

Here's the crazy part. I'm now taking TPR and I plan on taking the MCAT in April '03. (Yes, this April without finishing the prereqs first). I didn't take Physics or Orgo in undergrad. The thing is, that for one, the TPR course is so thorough that I'm able to learn the info that's necessary to work the MCAT passages. For the BY and GChem, since I'm taking these classes now it helps when doing the BY and GChem passages and what's taught in TPR reinforces what I learned in class and vice versa. As for Orgo and Physics, I have study guides, text books, friends, and TPR to help me understand what's going on. When I take the actual classes I will be able to do much better in them and shouldn't have any problems.

Worst case scenario......I take the MCAT and don't score as high as I want to, take the rest of the summer to prepare for the August MCAT, hopefully score higher, and I may nor may not get accepted anywhere. So I begin preparing for application cycle #2.

Best case scenario.....I ace the MCAT, along with my prereqs, Adcoms become curious as to how in the world did I get a good MCAT score without finishing the prereqs, I get some interviews, and I may get accepted

Everybody's learning pattern is different. I may do well on the MCAT and I may not. The way I look at it is if I can learn the material on my own that's necessary for me to make a decent MCAT score, then why not take it and apply now? Worst case is I don't get so I'll just apply again.

BTW, I am doing all of this while raising a child (who is involved in multiple activities, plus I have to teach him his schoolwork) which is a job in itself. I have done some research. I am first author on one abstract, I have two publications pending in which I am second and third author, and I am going to begin working on another research project in a few weeks. I am doing an internship at a county health dept and I do have some volunteer and clinical experience. I have worked real jobs in various fields. So I guess you can say that I'm as non-traditional as it gets. (BTW, I'm 26yrs old)

The bottom line is to do what's best for you and be sincere about whatever you're doing. Many people may think that I'm nuts for choosing the path that I'm on right now. If I get accepted for '04 then some will think that either I'm very smart or I just got lucky. What matters most is doing what I think is the right thing for me right now.

Feel free to pm me if you have any questions.
 
A bump thanks to neofight. Thanks for the props;) !
 
How long does it usually take to complete a MS degree with a required thesis.
 
Originally posted by Niklu13
How long does it usually take to complete a MS degree with a required thesis.
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Normally 2 to 3 years but this of course depends on the project. I did mine in about 16 months but that was because I selected a project that I would be able to get done in a relatively short amount of time (it was not published) and I worked with a PI that knew I intended to go on to medical school.

If your goal is to be published then plan to spend about from 1.5 to 2 years working on a project.
 
I am finishing my MS with a research thesis in 2 years. I have published couple papers and I am working on my third. I would rather do a MS than a post-doc, since it gives you an actual degree after the times and effort you put into it. I will start med school in September, and that would not happen if I did not go to grad school.
 
Originally posted by psleung
I am finishing my MS with a research thesis in 2 years. I have published couple papers and I am working on my third. I would rather do a MS than a post-doc
Click to expand...

I think you mean post-bacc.
 
hahha yeah~ you are right. Sorry!
 
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