MS3 Dropout wanting to try again

[Doingmybest86]

Hello.

This is embarrassing and I’m reluctant to ask for help but here goes.

So I attended a DO school for almost 3 years. During the last rotation of the MS3 year I took a year long leave of absence. I started a service business. After the year, I asked for more time to work on my business and eventually the school said that I would have to reapply. The dean told me that I would regret the decision to leave the rest of my life. I hear that in my head all of the time now. It’s been about 3 years, and I’m spinning my wheels in life and would like to try again. I’ve considered attempting a PA program (still considering) but I’d really like to finish the road I was on. My biggest question/concern, is whether any of the DO program coursework would be accepted by a school or would I have to start at the beginning? Also, I took my MCAT way back in 2013. I’d probably have to take that again. I did take and pass comlex level 1. I’ve mentally braced myself to have to start over from scratch. Thoughts, tips, advice?

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[Dr. Anonymouss]

I think you shot yourself in the foot on this one. I can’t imagine any school would take a chance on you even if you had the grades/mcat.

 

[Nugester]

I think your biggest concern is how are you going to convince Adcoms that you won't dip out again?

As for your question: you will have to call each school, but I'd imagine you'd have to start from scratch. Your best bet is the DO school you attended, but it looks like you are on the Dean's blacklist.

 

[A_Knowbody]

I think you need more introspection into your decision to leave and motivation to return to medicine. It sounds like you have regrets - why? How will things change once your wheels stop spinning? Why are you overdramatizing the deans words? This was your choice to leave after what seems like ample accommodation.

With the right mindset, you could make it back into a school, but I agree that is a very difficult road ahead. Assume you’re starting from scratch because you’ll need to convince every ADCOM that you have changed, grown significantly, and are highly dedicated and determined to renter the field. Likely need new scores, new pre-req coursework, new ECs, new LORs that can speak to this new you.

 

[Goro]

Hello.

This is embarrassing and I’m reluctant to ask for help but here goes.

So I attended a DO school for almost 3 years. During the last rotation of the MS3 year I took a year long leave of absence. I started a service business. After the year, I asked for more time to work on my business and eventually the school said that I would have to reapply. The dean told me that I would regret the decision to leave the rest of my life. I hear that in my head all of the time now. It’s been about 3 years, and I’m spinning my wheels in life and would like to try again. I’ve considered attempting a PA program (still considering) but I’d really like to finish the road I was on. My biggest question/concern, is whether any of the DO program coursework would be accepted by a school or would I have to start at the beginning? Also, I took my MCAT way back in 2013. I’d probably have to take that again. I did take and pass comlex level 1. I’ve mentally braced myself to have to start over from scratch. Thoughts, tips, advice?

I can't sugar coat this: You'd be auto-reject at my school. Your medical career is over.

Time to move on.

 

[Doingmybest86]

I can't sugar coat this: You'd be auto-reject at my school. Your medical career is over.

Time to move on.

Thanks for giving it raw!

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I can't sugar coat this: You'd be auto-reject at my school. Your medical career is over.

Time to move on.

Thanks for giving it raw!

In someways this is one of the biggest faults with the medical education system. We don't offer consideration to life or life experiences. You're expected to dedicate every essence into this one thing. It's a uniquely American problem and I truly believe it hurts the quality of who we graduate and admit. We're seemingly more happy accepting a 4.0/30 mcat who has never crawled out under their parent's teet and knows absolutely nothing about the world, human suffering, or how to handle themselves when they but heads with real human beings.

I think some programs may be willing to accept you as a transfer, ex NOVA has accepted some transfers from other programs who have had 2 year periods in between. I would genuinely call up many programs and see what they can offer and whether they would be willing to internally transfer you. Likewise consider taking the USMLE step 1 and trying to transfer into a US MD program as well.

Obviously it's an uphill road and if all else fails considering doing a PA is fair too.

 

[MusicDOc124]

I wouldn't consider PA programs much because numerous will not consider someone who may consider PA as a back up, and since you attended medical school even to the point of taking one of the licensing exams, you're DOA for those schools who will see you as such. Others simply won't interview you if you've taken a medical board exam, but otherwise would have if you didn't get to that point yet. There will be some that may consider you, but still iffy. I also do not believe that experience as a medical student for your 3rd year rotations counts as patient experience since you were a student. Ironic, I know - as in many cases it's better than shadowing, CNA, EMT etc because its most closely related to what you'd be doing and many times med students and PA students may rotate together. But because you were a med student, it might not carry weight for the hours they want to see. This is something you'd have to contact PA programs and ask about, which you'd have to call around anyway to see if they'd take a previously matriculated med student who took boards already before you waste money applying to places that won't look your way.

^take this with a grain of salt as things could have changed, but a few years ago at least this was the case.

In terms of med schools, you need to be current and in good standing for a transfer to "pick up where you left off" at most schools including the school I attended (and I transferred, so I've looked into the process extensively and completed it) but where you started, and you need to complete at least 2 years somewhere to get a degree from there. Since you're not a current student, starting as a 3rd year is out of the question anywhere except where you left. Starting over when you passed everything and took boards would also be unlikely.

Your best bet would be to contact the school you left and ask if you can start as an M3 again. They likely will have their reservations though and it might not work out because you already ditched them. They also may not have space in the class to have another student since they didn't necessarily plan for you to be there.

 

[Goro]

In someways this is one of the biggest faults with the medical education system. We don't offer consideration to life or life experiences. You're expected to dedicate every essence into this one thing. It's a uniquely American problem and I truly believe it hurts the quality of who we graduate and admit. We're seemingly more happy accepting a 4.0/30 mcat who has never crawled out under their parent's teet and knows absolutely nothing about the world, human suffering, or how to handle themselves when they but heads with real human beings.

I think some programs may be willing to accept you as a transfer, ex NOVA has accepted some transfers from other programs who have had 2 year periods in between. I would genuinely call up many programs and see what they can offer and whether they would be willing to internally transfer you. Likewise consider taking the USMLE step 1 and trying to transfer into a US MD program as well.

Obviously it's an uphill road and if all else fails considering doing a PA is fair too.

I beg to differ. With only so many seats and so many talented candidates wanting to fill them, someone who pissed away this opportunity is NOT a candidate that Adcoms want to see in one of those seats, no matter how much life experience they have. Dropping out med school is hardly a positive life experience.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I beg to differ. With only so many seats and so many talented candidates wanting to fill them, someone who pissed away this opportunity is NOT a candidate that Adcoms want to see in one of those seats, no matter how much life experience they have. Dropping out med school is hardly a positive life experience.

He didn't piss it away. He had things happen in his life. He was forced to leave because someone decided that someone needs to graduate within 6 years.

 

[Goro]

He didn't piss it away. He had things happen in his life. He was forced to leave because someone decided that someone needs to graduate within 6 years.

No, he started a business, and that was more important than a career in Medicine. The OP made his bed, now he has to lie in it. Even my teens understand that actions have consequences.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

No, he started a business, and that was more important than a career in Medicine. The OP made his bed, now he gas to lie in it. Even my teens understand that actions have consequences.

I think the fact that we punish people for having a life and call that making their bed is perpetuating toxicity. No other system in the world or even in the US attempts that.

 

[Goro]

I think the fact that we punish people for having a life and call that making their bed is perpetuating toxicity. No other system in the world or even in the US attempts that.

Nobody is entitled to a seat in medical, no one is being punished. The OP willingly made his choices.

let's just agree to disagree, because you're not going to come change my mind and I'm not going to change yours

 

[caterwaiter]

I think the fact that we punish people for having a life and call that making their bed is perpetuating toxicity. No other system in the world or even in the US attempts that.

I think the rates at which medical schools accept non-traditional students and career changers speaks to the fact that they WANT students to have well-rounded lives. I don't think it's unreasonable for medical schools to expect their students to finish what they start. As a non-traditional applicant myself, one of the biggest parts of my application is proving my commitment to medicine. As @Goro pointed out, there are too many abundantly qualified students who have NOT decided to leave medicine and pursue something else for schools to give a seat to a known flight risk.

 

[caterwaiter]

perpetuating toxicity

Is the medical school admissions system flawed? Yes. A topic for a separate thread, perhaps.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Nobody is entitled to a seat in medical, no one is being punished. The OP willingly made his choices.

let's just agree to disagree, because you're not going to come change my mind and I'm not going to change yours

Which is fine. I'm simply saying that we should make things better mayhaps.

I think the rates at which medical schools accept non-traditional students and career changers speaks to the fact that they WANT students to have well-rounded lives. I don't think it's unreasonable for medical schools to expect their students to finish what they start. As a non-traditional applicant myself, one of the biggest parts of my application is proving my commitment to medicine. As @Goro pointed out, there are too many abundantly qualified students who have NOT decided to leave medicine and pursue something else for schools to give a seat to a known flight risk.

I would say that allowing people to take time off in between especially after 2nd or 3rd year shouldn't be seen as despicable or a flight risk. He was asked to leave because he was not allowed a 2nd year of a leave. I think that's unfortunate.

 

[deleted859689]

I would say that allowing people to take time off in between especially after 2nd or 3rd year shouldn't be seen as despicable or a flight risk. He was asked to leave because he was not allowed a 2nd year of a leave. I think that's unfortunate.

1 year allowed LOA is pretty flexible imo considering the things you may forget which might make it harder to come back on equal footing. Everything is outlined in the student handbook that everyone signs. I’m sure there is a way to appeal for greater than 1 year LOA, but needs to be approved.

I’m nontrad and even if all the members of my family die in a plane crash I will make sure the schedule the funeral on a weekend with hopefully no tests the next week.

 

[mmchick]

Which is fine. I'm simply saying that we should make things better mayhaps.

Curious why you think taking leave in the middle of school should even be allowed in the first place if it's not for some extenuating circumstance or some enhancement experience that further perpetuates one's medical career.. I don't think it's unreasonable whatsoever for medical schools to expect students that they accept to be insurmountably committed to a career in medicine. I don't see how dropping out in the middle of school makes for a better doctor through more "life experiences".

Frankly, sounded like OP lost a bit of interest in their studies and prioritized their completely unrelated entrepreneurship aspirations instead. I'm not sure how pursuing one's business interests in the middle of their education turns out to make them a better doctor in the end.. Personally, I'd want my doctor to be all-in their career and fully dedicated to my needs vs half-invested with forevermore other professional interests that take away their attention.

There are thousands of applicants every year who have plenty of life experience- are older, have started businesses or had longitudinal experiences around the world/etc. and are ready to dedicate themselves fully to their career. I don't see why an exception should be made for someone who quite literally chose to do something else with his time besides the commitment he made when he enrolled in a program for one of the most demanding careers. His integrity and commitment to medicine has been shot and I think he'll have an extremely tough time rectifying that.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

1 year allowed LOA is pretty flexible imo considering the things you may forget which might make it harder to come back on equal footing. Everything is outlined in the student handbook that everyone signs. I’m sure there is a way to appeal for greater than 1 year LOA, but needs to be approved.

I’m nontrad and even if all the members of my family die in a plane crash I will make sure the schedule the funeral on a weekend with hopefully no tests the next week.

I think sometimes you need to clear your head and decompress. Come back to the playing field with new experiences and mindset. I don't think it should be at all discouraged.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Curious why you think taking leave in the middle of school should even be allowed in the first place if it's not for some extenuating circumstance or some enhancement experience that further perpetuates one's medical career.. I don't think it's unreasonable whatsoever for medical schools to expect students that they accept to be insurmountably committed to a career in medicine. I don't see how dropping out in the middle of school makes for a better doctor through more "life experiences".

Frankly, sounded like OP lost a bit of interest in their studies and prioritized their completely unrelated entrepreneurship aspirations instead. I'm not sure how pursuing one's business interests in the middle of their education turns out to make them a better doctor in the end.. Personally, I'd want my doctor to be all-in their career and fully dedicated to my needs vs half-invested with forevermore other professional interests that take away their attention.

There are thousands of applicants every year who have plenty of life experience- are older, have started businesses or had longitudinal experiences around the world/etc. and are ready to dedicate themselves fully to their career. I don't see why an exception should be made for someone who quite literally chose to do something else with his time besides the commitment he made when he enrolled in a program for one of the most demanding careers. His integrity and commitment to medicine has been shot and I think he'll have an extremely tough time rectifying that.

Let me rephrase for you. What would be the issue with him restarting at the m3 level?

Also your doctor should above all be committed to their mental and physical health. Not their career. That is how they will provide good and quality care. The doctors are the ones who are willing to admit they need to live and focus on themselves once in a while.

Either way all I'm saying is I don't see why we shouldn't be allowed to do other things with our lives or take small breaks in medical school. MD programs let their students do PhDs for 3-5 years. I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed to on maybe a lesser merit be allowed to do something else for some short period of time to enhance your life or experience or to reconfigure to adapt.

 

[MusicDOc124]

What would be the issue with him restarting at the m3 level?

Time since OP was last on a clinical rotation (prior to even solidifying anything via experience), time since OP last legitimately studied (most likely) - at least in a way that would be tested (jumping right into COMATs and then Level 2 PE and CE in less than a year), and the risk of them failing due to the amount of time passed as well as the risk of them leaving again just in case they re-experience the things that made them want to leave in the first place that could have been forgotten in their time off.

Oh, and risk of not matching because of red flags. Something the school may not want to deal with. Whether you agree with this or not, it's still a factor.

Also your doctor should above all be committed to their mental and physical health. Not their career. That is how they will provide good and quality care.

Agreed... however, OP left not for physical or mental health. They left with a single rotation left and just before boards, and started a business. Then asked for more time for said business and was told no, and then chose the business over continuing on for even 1 more year to graduate.

 

[deleted859689]

I think sometimes you need to clear your head and decompress. Come back to the playing field with new experiences and mindset. I don't think it should be at all discouraged.

I also don’t think it should take more than 1 year to decompress. I agree it shouldn’t be discouraged. However if it takes more than 1 year to decompress and orient your focus and mindset to becoming a physician (with it being your primary focus in life), it might be time to seek professional help.

OP was discouraged from leaving after being denied a second LOA. Also who the heck starts a business during their LOA when planning to return to medical school? You should apply to medical school because that’s the only thing in life that will fulfill the lifetime goal of being a physician. Some people realize this goal later in life.

What’s stopping OP from being readmitted M3?: Do they still know everything they learned prior? Can they still pass their boards? When’s the last time they even touched a patient? Restarting OP at M3 is a recipe for failure. And why restart a dropout when there a plenty of just as qualified fresh candidates ready to devote themselves to the lifelong career of practicing and learning medicine.

 

[Doingmybest86]

I think your biggest concern is how are you going to convince Adcoms that you won't dip out again?

As for your question: you will have to call each school, but I'd imagine you'd have to start from scratch. Your best bet is the DO school you attended, but it looks like you are on the Dean's blacklist.

That’s my concern. I don’t know how I’d be able to convince anyone with my words. What can I do?

 

[deleted859689]

That’s my concern. I don’t know how I’d be able to convince anyone with my words. What can I do?

What were your grades in medical school and stats (GPA/MCAT) before applying?

Did you call your prior institution to see whether or not they will give you preference if you reapply? If not, I would start there. I would inquire about your situation to a few DO schools I was interested in and ask if my application would even get looked at. If yes, retake the MCAT and reapply. If I got a hard maybe I would start looking for SMPs (special masters programs) with direct linkage to a medical and ask them if you fulfill the requirements of the program, will they allow you to matriculate?

if you ask and you get bad news from both and you have some disposable income - volunteer locally at a hospital (COVID-19?) maybe scribe, kill the MCAT again, get LORs somehow and shoot your shot one last time. Odds won’t be good, but you miss all the shots you don’t take. Might just be a massive waste of time and money though.

 

[Doingmybest86]

I think you need more introspection into your decision to leave and motivation to return to medicine. It sounds like you have regrets - why? How will things change once your wheels stop spinning? Why are you overdramatizing the deans words? This was your choice to leave after what seems like ample accommodation.

With the right mindset, you could make it back into a school, but I agree that is a very difficult road ahead. Assume you’re starting from scratch because you’ll need to convince every ADCOM that you have changed, grown significantly, and are highly dedicated and determined to renter the field. Likely need new scores, new pre-req coursework, new ECs, new LORs that can speak to this new you.

Honestly I don’t know why I left? I was 2 weeks into my final internal medicine rotation. We were rounding on a patient who was in the ER because of seizures secondary to opioid overdose. I had talked to the patients mother and heard about her life of prostitution and domestic violence. The resident and the attending were slightly insensitive when speaking about why the patient shouldn’t be there. Then we had a sidebar discussion about the hospital not being overflow for homeless shelters. I had an outburst internally at the insensitivity. All of the stress from my life was not allowing me to think clearly. I felt that it would be better to take a leave of absence as opposed to being labeled insubordinate and kicked out. So I asked to speak with the medicine chief. I broke down in his office explaining why leaving would be best. He begged me not to. He gave me 4 days off of the clerkship to think things through. I went home and just set there alone the whole weekend. I wanted the easy way out. I wanted the stress to be over (in retrospect it’s odd that no one checked on me from the school after having a breakdown in the chief of medicines office where I was sobbing uncontrollably). After the time given was over I went to the school and turned in my credentials. Everyone told me not to. I just wasn’t thinking clear. My business was the answer to my financial problems (my mom has given me $10k to start the business but at the time I didn’t think to use the money to stay in school because it did solve all of my problems). Me leaving school was about me starting a business. Me starting a business wasn’t about getting rich. My goal was to solve my financial issues so that I could practice medicine without worrying or being motivated by finances.

 

[Doingmybest86]

I think you need more introspection into your decision to leave and motivation to return to medicine. It sounds like you have regrets - why? How will things change once your wheels stop spinning? Why are you overdramatizing the deans words? This was your choice to leave after what seems like ample accommodation.

With the right mindset, you could make it back into a school, but I agree that is a very difficult road ahead. Assume you’re starting from scratch because you’ll need to convince every ADCOM that you have changed, grown significantly, and are highly dedicated and determined to renter the field. Likely need new scores, new pre-req coursework, new ECs, new LORs that can speak to this new you.

I didn’t mean to overdramatize his words. I just think about his words a lot. He was right. Thank you for your feedback!!

 

[Doingmybest86]

In someways this is one of the biggest faults with the medical education system. We don't offer consideration to life or life experiences. You're expected to dedicate every essence into this one thing. It's a uniquely American problem and I truly believe it hurts the quality of who we graduate and admit. We're seemingly more happy accepting a 4.0/30 mcat who has never crawled out under their parent's teet and knows absolutely nothing about the world, human suffering, or how to handle themselves when they but heads with real human beings.

I think some programs may be willing to accept you as a transfer, ex NOVA has accepted some transfers from other programs who have had 2 year periods in between. I would genuinely call up many programs and see what they can offer and whether they would be willing to internally transfer you. Likewise consider taking the USMLE step 1 and trying to transfer into a US MD program as well.

Obviously it's an uphill road and if all else fails considering doing a PA is fair too.

I’m prepared for the uphill battle. I disappointed a lot of people who were rooting for me. And to leave for what I left for makes it worse. The last time I went to the school I got a few disgusted looks. I’m ashamed when I go. It’s unlikely that they’ll let me back but I’ll definitely ask again. I’ll also start calling around! Thank you for your encouraging post.

 

[Doingmybest86]

I wouldn't consider PA programs much because numerous will not consider someone who may consider PA as a back up, and since you attended medical school even to the point of taking one of the licensing exams, you're DOA for those schools who will see you as such. Others simply won't interview you if you've taken a medical board exam, but otherwise would have if you didn't get to that point yet. There will be some that may consider you, but still iffy. I also do not believe that experience as a medical student for your 3rd year rotations counts as patient experience since you were a student. Ironic, I know - as in many cases it's better than shadowing, CNA, EMT etc because its most closely related to what you'd be doing and many times med students and PA students may rotate together. But because you were a med student, it might not carry weight for the hours they want to see. This is something you'd have to contact PA programs and ask about, which you'd have to call around anyway to see if they'd take a previously matriculated med student who took boards already before you waste money applying to places that won't look your way.

^take this with a grain of salt as things could have changed, but a few years ago at least this was the case.

In terms of med schools, you need to be current and in good standing for a transfer to "pick up where you left off" at most schools including the school I attended (and I transferred, so I've looked into the process extensively and completed it) but where you started, and you need to complete at least 2 years somewhere to get a degree from there. Since you're not a current student, starting as a 3rd year is out of the question anywhere except where you left. Starting over when you passed everything and took boards would also be unlikely.

Your best bet would be to contact the school you left and ask if you can start as an M3 again. They likely will have their reservations though and it might not work out because you already ditched them. They also may not have space in the class to have another student since they didn't necessarily plan for you to be there.

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts.

 

[emergencydancing]

I have no idea what the risks are for the school or what your chances are. I don't know what the system is like. But I'd like to think that people deserve a second chance, if they're willing to earn it.

It seems like from your previous posts, your grades aren't stellar and your MCAT score then wasn't either. I'd have to imagine it's gotten more competitive than when you got in. Are you willing to enhance your GPA by taking postbac/SMP classes and retake the MCAT, only to restart as an M1? I think it's a big risk, but to me if you're willing to do that, you've earn the seat and have shown your commitment.

Best of luck, and if nothing else, remember @Goro thanks you for your service cGPA: 3.29 and sGPA 3.43, what are my chances?

 

[Doingmybest86]

I beg to differ. With only so many seats and so many talented candidates wanting to fill them, someone who pissed away this opportunity is NOT a candidate that Adcoms want to see in one of those seats, no matter how much life experience they have. Dropping out med school is hardly a positive life experience.

You’re post is harsh but true. I did piss away the opportunity. I regret it all the time. Dropping out isn’t a positive experience but if one thing it has shown me is that a purposeless existence is hardly worth fighting for. I haven’t felt purposeful since leaving school.

 

[Doingmybest86]

Nobody is entitled to a seat in medical, no one is being punished. The OP willingly made his choices.

let's just agree to disagree, because you're not going to come change my mind and I'm not going to change yours

Looking back, I didn’t appreciate the position I was in. I didn’t appreciate how much effort I had put into just applying, then first year, then second year, and the third year. I wasn’t thinking clearly. I was ungrateful. Medical school is a privilege that I treated nonchalantly.

 

[Shotapp]

Let me rephrase for you. What would be the issue with him restarting at the m3 level?

Umm...knowledge decade. It's been 3 years since OP was an M3. I don't understand why this is even a question...

"My goal was to solve my financial issues so that I could practice medicine without worrying or being motivated by finances."

The quote above doesn't make any sense...you're now a few hundred thousand dollars in debt with no medical degree to show for it.

 

[Goro]

Honestly I don’t know why I left? I was 2 weeks into my final internal medicine rotation. We were rounding on a patient who was in the ER because of seizures secondary to opioid overdose. I had talked to the patients mother and heard about her life of prostitution and domestic violence. The resident and the attending were slightly insensitive when speaking about why the patient shouldn’t be there. Then we had a sidebar discussion about the hospital not being overflow for homeless shelters. I had an outburst internally at the insensitivity. All of the stress from my life was not allowing me to think clearly. I felt that it would be better to take a leave of absence as opposed to being labeled insubordinate and kicked out. So I asked to speak with the medicine chief. I broke down in his office explaining why leaving would be best. He begged me not to. He gave me 4 days off of the clerkship to think things through. I went home and just set there alone the whole weekend. I wanted the easy way out. I wanted the stress to be over (in retrospect it’s odd that no one checked on me from the school after having a breakdown in the chief of medicines office where I was sobbing uncontrollably). After the time given was over I went to the school and turned in my credentials. Everyone told me not to. I just wasn’t thinking clear. My business was the answer to my financial problems (my mom has given me $10k to start the business but at the time I didn’t think to use the money to stay in school because it did solve all of my problems). Me leaving school was about me starting a business. Me starting a business wasn’t about getting rich. My goal was to solve my financial issues so that I could practice medicine without worrying or being motivated by finances.

It breaks my heart to have to write this, but seeing that some mental health issues were what drove you impulsively out of medical school, I shudder to think of what residency would do you. Given your history I can't see any med school taking a chance on you. It really is time for Plan B.

I say this as someone who has a huge soft spot for veterans, but I don't think any med school will be doing you any favors by (re)admitting you.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Umm...knowledge decade. It's been 3 years since OP was an M3. I don't understand why this is even a question...

"My goal was to solve my financial issues so that I could practice medicine without worrying or being motivated by finances."

The quote above doesn't make any sense...you're now a few hundred thousand dollars in debt with no medical degree to show for it.

What's your point? Ppl spent 4 years doing a PhD in between their 2nd and 3rd year and do fine.

 

[deleted859689]

What's your point? Ppl spent 4 years doing a PhD in between their 2nd and 3rd year and do fine.

I have a friend who PhD’d out instead of returning to medical school. You have second year to relearn everything and aren’t truly out of school. You’re still in the grind. There’s a reason why MD/DO Phd programs are structured the way they are. Going back as an m3 with no clinical refresh is not good imo.

 

[Shotapp]

What's your point? Ppl spent 4 years doing a PhD in between their 2nd and 3rd year and do fine.

Majority of what they're studying/researching pertains to medicine and they're applying their knowledge. You're not making any sense. OP wasn't maintaining/reinforcing the knowledge they acquired in M 3 for 3 years...

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I have a friend who PhD’d out instead of returning to medical school. You have second year to relearn everything and aren’t truly out of school. You’re still in the grind. There’s a reason why MD/DO Phd programs are structured the way they are. Going back as an m3 with no clinical refresh is not good imo.

MD/PhD programs are structured MS1-2 and then 3 to 5 years of basic science with minimal medicine and then ms3.

 

[Doingmybest86]

Curious why you think taking leave in the middle of school should even be allowed in the first place if it's not for some extenuating circumstance or some enhancement experience that further perpetuates one's medical career.. I don't think it's unreasonable whatsoever for medical schools to expect students that they accept to be insurmountably committed to a career in medicine. I don't see how dropping out in the middle of school makes for a better doctor through more "life experiences".

Frankly, sounded like OP lost a bit of interest in their studies and prioritized their completely unrelated entrepreneurship aspirations instead. I'm not sure how pursuing one's business interests in the middle of their education turns out to make them a better doctor in the end.. Personally, I'd want my doctor to be all-in their career and fully dedicated to my needs vs half-invested with forevermore other professional interests that take away their attention.

There are thousands of applicants every year who have plenty of life experience- are older, have started businesses or had longitudinal experiences around the world/etc. and are ready to dedicate themselves fully to their career. I don't see why an exception should be made for someone who quite literally chose to do something else with his time besides the commitment he made when he enrolled in a program for one of the most demanding careers. His integrity and commitment to medicine has been shot and I think he'll have an extremely tough time rectifying that.

I left to start a business but it was secondary to financial problems. I felt the business was a way of escape, where I could earn my way. If I described the situation I think it would fit the hypomanic

What were your grades in medical school and stats (GPA/MCAT) before applying?

Did you call your prior institution to see whether or not they will give you preference if you reapply? If not, I would start there. I would inquire about your situation to a few DO schools I was interested in and ask if my application would even get looked at. If yes, retake the MCAT and reapply. If I got a hard maybe I would start looking for SMPs (special masters programs) with direct linkage to a medical and ask them if you fulfill the requirements of the program, will they allow you to matriculate?

if you ask and you get bad news from both and you have some disposable income - volunteer locally at a hospital (COVID-19?) maybe scribe, kill the MCAT again, get LORs somehow and shoot your shot one last time. Odds won’t be good, but you miss all the shots you don’t take. Might just be a massive waste of time and money though.

It breaks my heart to have to write this, but seeing that some mental health issues were what drove you impulsively out of medical school, I shudder to think of what residency would do you. Given your history I can see any med school taking a chance on you. It really is time for Plan B.

I say this as someone who has a huge soft spot for veterans, but I don't think any med school will be doing you any favors by (re)admitting you.

I figured the near consensus would be that trying again would be waste of time. But I will. Medical school did break me. But it was multifactorial. Wasn’t just the work. It’s life that is happening while school is happening. I literally started school a month after returning from a deployment in Iraq as the senior medic from my troop. All 4 of my medics returned. I’m not weak. I didn’t try to take the easy way out. I did as much as I could to succeed. I rose to the challenge. I put the hours in. I learned the material. I didn’t fail any clerkship. It was stress. Not stress from writing a few notes or doing physical examinations. Stress from financial worries. How am I going to pay to fly to those audition rotation or pay to live at those rotations and eat at those rotations? Financial stress. Was it a foolish decision to leave to start a business. Yes. Absolutely. I didn’t seek help. I figured I’d figure it out in enough time. I didn’t. You don’t believe that someone should get a second chance to prove themselves? Regardless of whether I’m capable or not? Regardless of whether I actually care for patients or not? I love medicine. I love the science of it and the the human component. Guess I was just looking for some encouragement with this post and not discouragement. I do appreciate your honesty, I’m sure many will share your attitude toward me.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Majority of what they're studying/researching pertains to medicine and they're applying their knowledge. You're not making any sense. OP wasn't maintaining/reinforcing the knowledge they acquired in M 3 for 3 years...

The neuroscience of x or the epidemiological patherns of y and the immunology of z specific to organ system q isn't doesn't translate much to clinical sense.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Either way I'm bailing on this thread. I don't disagree that their odds are weak, but I think it sucks that it is that way.

Good luck OP.

 

[deleted859689]

MD/PhD programs are structured MS1-2 and then 3 to 5 years of basic science with minimal medicine and then ms3.

MD-PhD VCU School of Medicine

medschool.vcu.edu

To each school their own. Point is is they kinda try and blend everything together and the student is still in a rigorous learning environment related to the sciences. It’s 100% different than being out of the entire science scene for a few years.

 

[MusicDOc124]

What's your point? Ppl spent 4 years doing a PhD in between their 2nd and 3rd year and do fine.

The neuroscience of x or the epidemiological patherns of y and the immunology of z specific to organ system q isn't doesn't translate much to clinical sense.

So you're comparing 3 years of studying neuroscience (or biological sciences even) and epidemiology and immunology - all of which are applicable to boards in some way if not at least for having a much stronger base of information to build on, surrounded by PhDs and MDs and/or DOs in some form or fashion, often intending to have a career with a focus on research, while probably still actively studying for the board exams they have to take and keeping up with a few things to not have to refresh completely...... to 3 years (same time frame) completely off and running a business completely irrelevant to medicine or healthcare without any studying or keeping up with anything, not surrounded by people who are on the same path.

Makes total sense that they're not different at all....

 

[mmchick]

I left to start a business but it was secondary to financial problems. I felt the business was a way of escape, where I could earn my way. If I described the situation I think it would fit the hypomanic

This honestly makes no sense to me. I don’t get why you’d worry so much about finances while a student, presumably supported by student loans, that you thought leaving to start a business, which is no small task or guarantee or without its Herculean stresses itself, would solve those sleepless nights...

This whole thread is just entirely confusing and lacks all rational thought. I think you’ve gotten plenty of feedback at this point, so the decision is up to your tolerance for disappointment and size of your wallet at this point. Good luck.

 

[ApplicantPerson88]

You can still do a lot of good. I wouldn't even go back if I were you because the disadvantages are so significant. Even if you can get into another DO school, the PDs will look at you weird. I disagree with your Dean (he is protecting his own ego and his own consequences of having a MS3 abandon medicine for business); your life will not be defined by this choice, but your reactions AFTER it.

But, you are not alone in this situation. There are people who leave in their 4th year at medical schools significantly much better than the one that you attended or graduates from elite medical schools who do not practice because of bad experiences in medical school. There is nothing wrong with them or you. If anything, your only fault was not recognizing all the dangers or placed yourself in a position to operate with strength. I honestly believe that DO will not be the same in the future that the current generation enjoys and the more snobbish MD schools will probably not take you. As a Non-trad, you are not young anymore. It is important secure a bare minimum position that you can do empire building.

If you want to do healthcare, I would speak with people already established in the field at the mid-level. Go for a mid-level position if that is what is possible (if you have the grades; it should still be possible if you want it bad enough; there are stories of people who failed out and did a mid-level). Although your loans will probably be higher than some others, I still think you can make a good living, help people (although you won't be writing the script or facing the lawsuits), and find a place of support from your peers. Don't let anyone tell you what is possible or impossible. The worse case is that you lose a few application fees (obviously apply to programs close to you).

I know you are getting a lot of hate here, but nothing you did was a total disaster. Actions do have consequences, but not always what we think or other people think the consequences will be. If the heart is there, you can still make a huge difference. When I shadowed, mid-levels played a huge role in medical decisions even if they are not actively making them or as knowledgeable as the senior attendings. Don't beat yourself up for your past choices, I have seen people (with support) strong-armed into medical school, residencies, and fellowships that could never be possible on merits alone. In my book, you are a better person than them. If you truly dislike your business, speak with people who you admire and are willing to show you the path forward. Don't be intimidated to reach out to schools or programs.

No person on the committee is completely alike (they all have different life experiences) and not all of them can be convinced (or should even be on that committee picking future colleagues). Try to convince the people that can be convinced and hope they will sway the others that are on the fence. Because you dropped out the first time, if you do go to do a mid-level, make sure you maintain contact with your supporters already practicing, befriend the right mentors while in school, and work with students who you believe will be successful. You are basically building a community that you can lean on in the future.

Also, don't be an a-hole in the future if you are successful in your medical career. Someone I know found her attending a job many years after residency when he was in a difficult position (circumstances change). She did it for him because he was one of the nicer ones. Not all is lost and good luck!

 

[chicandtoughness]

I have a colleague who was in a similar situation - dropped out of an MD school after MS2 because of life situations. He wasn't thinking clearly and quitting was the most immediate solution to his stress (obviously when you're in a dysfunctional mental state you're not thinking of the long-term consequences). My heart goes out to you but the reality is that the chances are next to none. My colleague was not allowed to re-attend his school, ended up reapplying and rejected across the board. He had a good GPA/MCAT and a robust CV... but dropping out puts a scarlet letter on your chest.

He ended up going the NP route and is very happily employed, making good money for a relatively stable 9-5, and still gets to interact with patients. You might consider doing something else in healthcare, perhaps even related to the business you started (no idea what it is). NP, PA, PT, OT, counseling, rehabilitation, whatever strikes your fancy. What was it about being a doctor that got you excited? Was it the patient care, was it working in a hospital setting, was it being able to work with a specific population? You can take those wants and transfer them to other professions.

 

[emergencydancing]

I have a colleague who was in a similar situation - dropped out of an MD school after MS2 because of life situations. He wasn't thinking clearly and quitting was the most immediate solution to his stress (obviously when you're in a dysfunctional mental state you're not thinking of the long-term consequences). My heart goes out to you but the reality is that the chances are next to none. My colleague was not allowed to re-attend his school, ended up reapplying and rejected across the board. He had a good GPA/MCAT and a robust CV... but dropping out puts a scarlet letter on your chest.

He ended up going the NP route and is very happily employed, making good money for a relatively stable 9-5, and still gets to interact with patients. You might consider doing something else in healthcare, perhaps even related to the business you started (no idea what it is). NP, PA, PT, OT, counseling, rehabilitation, whatever strikes your fancy. What was it about being a doctor that got you excited? Was it the patient care, was it working in a hospital setting, was it being able to work with a specific population? You can take those wants and transfer them to other professions.

Great response. Provides an anecdote and expresses the same conclusion that others have but in an empathetic tone. Naysayers on this forum and thread can learn a thing or two from this.

 

[vin5cent0]

I say this with no authority on the subject, but I cannot see you having much luck reapplying for multiple reasons. disregarding everything else going on, your stats (gpa at least) are low. DO school is only getting more and more competitive. i'm assuming if you've been running a business that you haven't done much in the way of building up an app worthy of medical school outside of of academics, either. you would need to retake the mcat and do very well on it.

even assuming you could begin working on rebuilding your app, and retake the mcat and do very well on it, your story for leaving medical school sounds strange (in my eyes at least). furthermore I don't think a simple change of heart is going to be enough to convince a school that you're worth getting a second chance when so many people out there are putting it all on the line for their first chance at this. if even an argument could be made for why you deserve two shots, you will have to come up with a hell of a story. I think your path forward should you choose to stay in medicine will probably need to be in an alternative career, like nurse practitioner or something of the sort. I just don't see any school giving you another shot without some incredible reinvention. I wish you the best in whatever you choose.

 

[Goro]

Great response. Provides an anecdote and expresses the same conclusion that others have but in an empathetic tone. Naysayers on this forum and thread can learn a thing or two from this.

people aren't coming here for hugs and kisses, but for realistic advice

 

[emergencydancing]

people aren't coming here for hugs and kisses, but for realistic advice

If your advice can be provided by others in better way, maybe it's not needed.

 

[Nrohgof]

OP leaving medical school was a very poor business decision.

OP, no medical school will likely invest in you again.