MSAR reports 80-90% of acceptances had clinical volunteering?

[TheAppleJuice]

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I've been looking at a lot of schools on MSAR and many seem to have in the low 80% of people who had clinical volunteering. That means, despite how competitive it is, they accepted almost 1 in 5 that had absolutely no clinics work?

How is this possible given the seemingly great amount of emphasis med schools place on it.

Take UCSD- highly ranked school very difficult to get into

83% accepted had clinical volunteer
65% had shadowing
66% had non clinical volunteer
91% had research


So they seem to accept a lot without volunteering considering again the competition. Explanation?

 

[Goro]

The others will most probably have had clinical employment, hence no need of clinical volunteering.

I've been looking at a lot of schools on MSAR and many seem to have in the low 80% of people who had clinical volunteering. That means, despite how competitive it is, they accepted almost 1 in 5 that had absolutely no clinics work?

How is this possible given the seemingly great amount of emphasis med schools place on it.

Take UCSD- highly ranked school very difficult to get into

83% accepted had clinical volunteer
65% had shadowing
66% had non clinical volunteer
91% had research


So they seem to accept a lot without volunteering considering again the competition. Explanation?

 

[pioneer22]

how much clinical volunteering and nonclinical volunteering should we have by the time we apply?

 

[Goro]

> 150 hrs each. The more, the better. The Top Schools seem to really like service to others, based upon the SDNers who have been successful in this regard. Some have hundreds, if not 1000s of hrs of clinical and/or nonclinical volunteering or experience.

how much clinical volunteering and nonclinical volunteering should we have by the time we apply?

 

[jcorpsmanMD]

@Goro is correct. I had >3000 hours of clinical experience with great yield on schools applied to / interviews received. (Obv. there is more to my application but clinical experience / clinical volunteering cannot be emphasized enough. it is extremely crucial to anyones application)

 

[pioneer22]

> 150 hrs each. The more, the better. The Top Schools seem to really like service to others, based upon the SDNers who have been successful in this regard. Some have hundreds, if not 1000s of hrs of clinical and/or nonclinical volunteering or experience.

ok. so what are examples of each, especially clinical?

I have been doing habitat for humanity for a while...I guess this is non-clinical; what about something like volunteering at a senior citizen assisted living home, or translating spanish at a health center?

Thanks

 

[Lucca]

1000s of hours are definitely not a requirement, but this should be a core activity for an md applicant for sure.

Fwiw I've known people get into top schools with very little clinical experience or exposure. But never none.

 

[Goro]

The Grande Dame of SDN, LizzyM has a very nice rule of thumb: "if you're close enough to smell the patients, it's clinical"

Not all volunteering needs to be in a hospital. Think hospice, Planned Parenthood, nursing homes, rehab facilities, crisis hotlines, camps for sick children, or clinics.
Some types of volunteer activities are more appealing than others. Volunteering in a nice suburban hospital is all very well and good and all, but doesn't show that you're willing to dig in and get your hands dirty in the same way that working with the developmentally disabled (or homeless, the dying, or Alzheimer's or mentally ill or elderly or ESL or domestic, rural impoverished) does. The uncomfortable situations are the ones that really demonstrate your altruism and get you 'brownie points'. Plus, they frankly teach you more -- they develop your compassion and humanity in ways comfortable situations can't.


For nonclinical. think about how you can alleviate suffering in your community through service to the poor, homeless, illiterate, fatherless, etc, you are meeting an otherwise unmet need and learning more about the lives of the people (or types of people) who will someday be your patients. Check out your local houses of worship for volunteer opportunities. The key thing is service to others less fortunate than you. And get off campus and out of your comfort zone!

Examples include: Habitat for Humanity, Ronald McDonald House, Humane Society, crisis hotlines, soup kitchen, food pantry, homeless or women’s shelter, after-school tutoring for students or coaching a sport in a poor school district, teaching ESL to adults at a community center, Big Brothers/Big Sisters, or Meals on Wheels.

ok. so what are examples of each, especially clinical?

I have been doing habitat for humanity for a while...I guess this is non-clinical; what about something like volunteering at a senior citizen assisted living home, or translating spanish at a health center?

Thanks

 

[deleted838145]

what if you were deeply committed (1000+ hrs over 3 years) at only one place/organization? Does that hurt or help you?

 

[Lucca]

what if you were deeply committed (1000+ hrs over 3 years) at only one place/organization? Does that hurt or help you?

Demonstrating long term commitment to an activity is generally seen as a positive thing. You don't need to be a volunteer at every hospital and clinic in your city. Just need to show that you care enough to devote your free time to being in the clinical environment and spent enough time in it while not being deterred from medicine

 

[deleted838145]

Demonstrating long term commitment to an activity is generally seen as a positive thing. You don't need to be a volunteer at every hospital and clinic in your city. Just need to show that you care enough to devote your free time to being in the clinical environment and spent enough time in it while not being deterred from medicine

Ah, so 1000 hrs at one hospital/doing one thing is better than 100 hours at 10 different places?

 

[Lucca]

Ah, so 1000 hrs at one hospital/doing one thing is better than 100 hours at 10 different places?

I would personally say so not just for your own sanity but also because showing commitment is important

 

[Goro]

That's fine!

what if you were deeply committed (1000+ hrs over 3 years) at only one place/organization? Does that hurt or help you?

 

[Jalby]

I probably had 20 total hours of real clinical activity. I took an EMT course at UCLA and then volunteered in an ER in South Central for 3 shifts and did one overnight shift ridealong as an EMT. I wrote it up like it was an amazing summer though. For the most part, I just believe this is a checkmark kind of thing.

 

[esob]

The Grande Dame of SDN, LizzyM has a very nice rule of thumb: "if you're close enough to smell the patients, it's clinical"

Not all volunteering needs to be in a hospital. Think hospice, Planned Parenthood, nursing homes, rehab facilities, crisis hotlines, camps for sick children, or clinics.
Some types of volunteer activities are more appealing than others. Volunteering in a nice suburban hospital is all very well and good and all, but doesn't show that you're willing to dig in and get your hands dirty in the same way that working with the developmentally disabled (or homeless, the dying, or Alzheimer's or mentally ill or elderly or ESL or domestic, rural impoverished) does. The uncomfortable situations are the ones that really demonstrate your altruism and get you 'brownie points'. Plus, they frankly teach you more -- they develop your compassion and humanity in ways comfortable situations can't.

^^ This: I thought I had all my clinical down with 6k+ hrs in army medicine but my hospice volunteering for the last 6 months has been an entirely different (and at first, quite uncomfortable) experience. The world of trauma vs the world of dealing with dementia patients is so different it doesn't even seem like the two would have a common training path.

 

[deleted446889]

How is volunteering with a religious organization seen by adcoms? Doing things like feeding the poor, holding interfaith events, youth engagement programs, etc through your local church/synagogue/mosque?

Trying to figure out if being seen as very religious is a positive thing to put on the application, or better to de-emphasize because it might be polarizing? I guess this question applies to political involvement as well.

 

[Turkishking]

> 150 hrs each. The more, the better. The Top Schools seem to really like service to others, based upon the SDNers who have been successful in this regard. Some have hundreds, if not 1000s of hrs of clinical and/or nonclinical volunteering or experience.

How are we supposed to get 1000's, so a clinical job would do?

 

[Goro]

Either through a clinical job, or LOTS of volunteering.

How are we supposed to get 1000's, so a clinical job would do?

 

[Jalby]

1,000 hours!??!?! I work a full time job and do 1,800 in a year. I think about 200 hours is about what you should be shooting for.

 

[Goro]

This is fine.

How is volunteering with a religious organization seen by adcoms? Doing things like feeding the poor, holding interfaith events, youth engagement programs, etc through your local church/synagogue/mosque?

Trying to figure out if being seen as very religious is a positive thing to put on the application, or better to de-emphasize because it might be polarizing? I guess this question applies to political involvement as well.

 

[Lawpy]

The Grande Dame of SDN, LizzyM has a very nice rule of thumb: "if you're close enough to smell the patients, it's clinical"

Not all volunteering needs to be in a hospital. Think hospice, Planned Parenthood, nursing homes, rehab facilities, crisis hotlines, camps for sick children, or clinics.
Some types of volunteer activities are more appealing than others. Volunteering in a nice suburban hospital is all very well and good and all, but doesn't show that you're willing to dig in and get your hands dirty in the same way that working with the developmentally disabled (or homeless, the dying, or Alzheimer's or mentally ill or elderly or ESL or domestic, rural impoverished) does. The uncomfortable situations are the ones that really demonstrate your altruism and get you 'brownie points'. Plus, they frankly teach you more -- they develop your compassion and humanity in ways comfortable situations can't.


For nonclinical. think about how you can alleviate suffering in your community through service to the poor, homeless, illiterate, fatherless, etc, you are meeting an otherwise unmet need and learning more about the lives of the people (or types of people) who will someday be your patients. Check out your local houses of worship for volunteer opportunities. The key thing is service to others less fortunate than you. And get off campus and out of your comfort zone!

Examples include: Habitat for Humanity, Ronald McDonald House, Humane Society, crisis hotlines, soup kitchen, food pantry, homeless or women’s shelter, after-school tutoring for students or coaching a sport in a poor school district, teaching ESL to adults at a community center, Big Brothers/Big Sisters, or Meals on Wheels.

Yeah unfortunately LizzyM's clinical rule leads to grey areas, as volunteering at nursing homes is considered non-clinical. I think the Goro Guidelines are more concrete examples of volunteering

 

[Lawpy]

1,000 hours!??!?! I work a full time job and do 1,800 in a year. I think about 200 hours is about what you should be shooting for.

200 hours are usually sufficient for many schools. For schools like Rush, definitely not.

 

[ciestar]

I've been looking at a lot of schools on MSAR and many seem to have in the low 80% of people who had clinical volunteering. That means, despite how competitive it is, they accepted almost 1 in 5 that had absolutely no clinics work?

How is this possible given the seemingly great amount of emphasis med schools place on it.

Take UCSD- highly ranked school very difficult to get into

83% accepted had clinical volunteer
65% had shadowing
66% had non clinical volunteer
91% had research


So they seem to accept a lot without volunteering considering again the competition. Explanation?

I had zero clinical volunteering hours.
Rather, I had 225 nursing school clinical hours which i placed under "other" since it was a weird one category wise. Then, 4000+ pharmacy tech hours. (And 200+ nonclinical volunteering hours)

 

[LizzyM]

Yeah unfortunately LizzyM's clinical rule leads to grey areas, as volunteering at nursing homes is considered non-clinical. I think the Goro Guidelines are more concrete examples of volunteering

there is nothing grey (or gray) about my rule... are you working the patients? Are the people you are helping referred to as "patients" or are they called something else? I would extend this to "the patient's family" but it comes down to whether you might ever hear, "The next patient is waiting" or "the patient's family is here now". If that's the case, then you are dealing with patients. For something to be clinical, you need to be with patients. If you are working with institutionalized people in their residence, then it is questionable whether this is "clinical" or a good experience with members of a vulnerable population who are in custodial care. If you are providing hands-on clinical services carrying out a doctor's orders, then I might say that caring for a person in a "home" or "camp" could be called clinical.

 

[Stagg737]

How is volunteering with a religious organization seen by adcoms? Doing things like feeding the poor, holding interfaith events, youth engagement programs, etc through your local church/synagogue/mosque?

Trying to figure out if being seen as very religious is a positive thing to put on the application, or better to de-emphasize because it might be polarizing? I guess this question applies to political involvement as well.

The question is are you providing a service to those people beyond just religion? If you're being a missionary and just spreading your religion, it may show commitment but you aren't really 'serving' those less fortunate, you're acting as a salesman. If you're actively helping them with some aspect of their life (providing food or some other good, helping build homes or fix broken things, educating them on where they can find health services/mental health services, helping them develop themselves professionally, etc, etc) then it would absolutely be a positive thing.

Unless you're applying to a religious institution, I don't think the religious aspects themselves will be positive or negative unless you try and excessively insert religion into every aspect of your application. Imo as long as you stick to the actual service part of the experience, it will be seen positively by adcoms. The Adcoms on here can correct me if I'm wrong there.

 

[Lawpy]

there is nothing grey (or gray) about my rule... are you working the patients? Are the people you are helping referred to as "patients" or are they called something else? I would extend this to "the patient's family" but it comes down to whether you might ever hear, "The next patient is waiting" or "the patient's family is here now". If that's the case, then you are dealing with patients. For something to be clinical, you need to be with patients. If you are working with institutionalized people in their residence, then it is questionable whether this is "clinical" or a good experience with members of a vulnerable population who are in custodial care. If you are providing hands-on clinical services carrying out a doctor's orders, then I might say that caring for a person in a "home" or "camp" could be called clinical.

I guess the grey area hinges on what defines a patient but this makes sense, thanks!

 

[deleted838145]

I volunteered in a nursing home for 8 months...I could definitely smell them

 

[Goro]

Neither my advice, or that of the wise LizzyM, is iron-clad. We're just two Adcom members giving our own points of view. You do you.

I guess the grey area hinges on what defines a patient but this makes sense, thanks!

 

[Goro]

I think that my learned colleague has more Fe++ in his advice than mine!

To expand on comments from the the Right Honorable Gentleman from West of St. Louis, applicants must exercise their judgement as well seek opinion from others.

My Rule #2"Trust Your Gut" and Rule #3 "It Depends" must be utilized depending on the situational context

 

[Goro]

Definitely not born with a Ag spoon in your mouth either.

I am just a NaCl of the earth

 

[tifflove13]

The others will most probably have had clinical employment, hence no need of clinical volunteering.

I work as a CNA in a nursing home. Do I still need clinical volunteering?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Goro]

I think that you're good to go.

I work as a CNA in a nursing home. Do I still need clinical volunteering?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Jstnschltz]

.

 

[LizzyM]

Question: I volunteer at, what I believe is hospice, but technically not. It's a 2 bedroom residence where we treat people with terminal illness – essentially hospice (I think hospice has to be 3 patients or more?). The patients, to come here, have had to be in hospice. I do help take care of patients along with the registered nurses, and am in frequent contact (can definitely smell them) with the patients. I help wash them, feed them, anything they need, etc. Can I call this hospice? This place is NOT a medical facility, but essentially an end-of-life care home staffed by trained volunteer nurses.

You called them patients. Even if you were seeing them in their own homes while they were enrolled in hospice care (that's what my dad had) it would be clinical care.

 

[Jstnschltz]

.

 

[LizzyM]

Yep! I was just wondering how I would actually label it – would it be misleading to call this hospice?

You could call it "care of the dying" but "hospice care" is a synonym. I've never heard of the three bed minimum... must have something to do with reimbursement. That doesn't change the service being provided.

 

[Jstnschltz]

You could call it "care of the dying" but "hospice care" is a synonym. I've never heard of the three bed minimum... must have something to do with reimbursement. That doesn't change the service being provided.

Thank you!