Jul 4, 2016
81
10
Status
Pre-Health (Field Undecided)
I am looking at Western University entry level Masters and wanted to get your opinions on whether it is worth it or just go the ABSN route. For their program it is 3 years and you get your bsn and then it is required you work in a hospital for a certain number of hours to get your msn. If you then like to become a NP you can apply to their FNP program directly which would be about 4 years.

Now I am interested in nursing, but I would have to say I am also interested in the business administration side of things as well. Would going this route open a lot of doors in the future? or is it better to just go the ABSN route? Tuition is about 100k on their website.
 

DizzyJon

PA-C/Doctor of Health Science
10+ Year Member
May 18, 2004
88
19
If wanting to get into admin or be an NP, you should just go straight for the master's degree.
 
About the Ads

DizzyJon

PA-C/Doctor of Health Science
10+ Year Member
May 18, 2004
88
19
Yes for your specific reasons. If you want to be an NP you must get a master's. So, why not go straight for it if it will save you time and money vs doing ABSN then master's after. If you want admin then really I think an MBA or MHA is actually better, but MSN will be helpful too.
 
7

762513

It will increase your undergraduate costs significantly as they charge grad school tuition for what are essentially undergrad credits. Be aware of the cost.
 

pamac

7+ Year Member
Mar 30, 2010
1,352
413
Status
Other Health Professions Student
^that is definately something to consider.

Admin can be a harder nut to crack than jumping into becoming an NP, so think about that. NP is a purely merit based accomplishment vs the often precarious path of angling for promotions and paying the dues that can be required of folks looking to climb the corporate nursing ladder. I watched a nurse with several pertinent degrees lose out for a job promition in favor of someone who had almost no more parchment than a typical floor nurse (I'm guessing just a BSN). That taught me everything I needed to know about moving up the ladder... In essence the lesson is that you can spin, and toil, and calculate, and schmooze, and accomplish things, and all that effort can go up in a puff of smoke based on factors that are beyond your control (no matter your job). But some jobs have more of those potential setbacks than others, and management tends to have a tremendous amount of it compared to NPs.

Management is like soccer... You can work yourself silly getting the ball down to the goal only to have it kicked all the way down to the other end of the field. You can pay your dues and have your administration decide they want to hire someone from the outside to give a fresh look to the job. Or if you are on the outside trying to break in, the admin could decide to hire someone in house because they know the landscape. The point is that there's less certainty than going and getting your NP and simply going to work and collecting $98k per year to start. It beats hanging around 8 years hoping for your boss to retire so you can have a chance at getting their job afterword, then watching someone else get the position based on the whim of a boss one step higher. And trying to land a job higher up the chain at another facility can be tricky for nurses because a lot of the knowledge that can make a nurse valuable is due to a specific knowledge base gained and deployed at the previous facility. For instance, I'm really valuable in my role where I'm at because of all the time I've spent specifically dealing with the way my facility operates. That same skill set wouldn't do much for me at the hospital across town that does things quite a bit differently. If I get hired to be a manager over there, I'm not even as useful in many cases than any other new nurse. I'm just another schmuck that doesn't know how to use their computer system, or know how things get done over there. I'm a pilot that now has to learn how to fly their planes instead of the ones I've been in for 7 years.

So keep in mind that being a nurse and having a masters in Healthcare admin, or an MBA helps you, but it guarantees nothing. One of my friends is a nurse with an MBA. That person works the floor still, just like me. On the business side, you not only have to eat a lot of turds, you have to convince other people to eat a lot of them too. My friend isn't into that, and so my friend also isn't moving up the chain. Guess who now wishes they had gone to NP school like me?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 762513

pamac

7+ Year Member
Mar 30, 2010
1,352
413
Status
Other Health Professions Student
I guesse another question I would ask anyone interested in "the management of business side of medicine" is: "Why?"

You want to be saddled with bosses that expect you to work miracles while they give you poor resources? Or attend countless meetings? Work yourself to madness preparing reports for the upper eschelons, or make suggestions that are simply disregarded? Have someone take credit for your ideas and work? Be told to take things in a direction that you don't agree with and that you know will fail? Sort through regulations you don't understand? That's a typical day for an administrator. A lot of my coworkers who work a little overtime make more than my boss does, and we all work 3 days a week to my bosses 5 (plus they have to be available by phone to solve problems that come up).

If I showed up to work one day to find out that my job now required those things I mentioned above, I would assume I was being punished for something.
 

Noisewater-TDX

The Grumpiest Of Them All
Gold Donor
5+ Year Member
Nov 22, 2014
551
592
North Carolina
Status
Medical Student
I am looking at Western University entry level Masters and wanted to get your opinions on whether it is worth it or just go the ABSN route. For their program it is 3 years and you get your bsn and then it is required you work in a hospital for a certain number of hours to get your msn. If you then like to become a NP you can apply to their FNP program directly which would be about 4 years.

Now I am interested in nursing, but I would have to say I am also interested in the business administration side of things as well. Would going this route open a lot of doors in the future? or is it better to just go the ABSN route? Tuition is about 100k on their website.

A 100k for the ABSN or MBA? good lord.
If you are trying to just get a job, get your masters in something (MSN, MHA, MBA). But the idea of an RN with no experiences coming into the field with a masters is an odd concept to me. So with that being said i would say get your BSN first and then get an MHA or MBA while putting in time "in the trenches" on a unit somewhere. It will make you a much more marketable employee for future nursing management jobs (don't recommend this route) or for general hospital admin (much better life from what i've seen).

Good luck.
 
Aug 2, 2017
14
13
Status
Other Health Professions Student
I have been in hospital management for over a decade. I am currently at the director level -- totally hands off, patient wise, with clinical supervisors under me who occasionally see patients and actually manage the clinical staff. I enjoyed a more clinical role earlier in my management career as it gave me the best of both worlds. I've worked for large healthcare systems as well as a small community hospital. If you are wanting to go into management as a nurse, it requires a lot of luck -- being the right person at the right time. You typically have to work your way up. The usual progression is floor nurse, charge nurse, clinical supervisor, manager, director -- and if you are the right person with the cut-throat mentality and drive, you can go further. You will often have to change hospitals in order to get into a better position, professionally. Politics -- so much politics. And people management -- it's like herding cats to get everyone on board and doing the right things, continuously.

I'm mid-way through my NP program. Because I won't do another 15-20 years of this. And you're either working 40-50 hours a week in management, or you're not in management. There's no part-time management. No flexibility. And, I like interacting with patients. I will likely take a pay cut as a new grad NP. It sucks, but is part of my long-term plan. Ten to fifteen years from now, I'll work part-time as a NP, and have a much higher quality of life than if I was still in management, working 40-50 hours a week for no appreciation from above or below.

If you want to go into management: Get your BSN from a great university. Become the best floor nurse you can. Be dependable. Get certified in your area. Join councils and committees. And while you're doing that, get your MSN. Do not get a MHA. MHA's are worthless unless you want to be a nursing home administrator. The only time I would recommend getting a MHA is if you are already in management and you need to get a master's degree and want a relatively easy degree. Even then, suck it up and get a MSN. And network, network, network. It's easier to do all of this if you are an extrovert and enjoy schmoozing.
 

Noisewater-TDX

The Grumpiest Of Them All
Gold Donor
5+ Year Member
Nov 22, 2014
551
592
North Carolina
Status
Medical Student
I have been in hospital management for over a decade. I am currently at the director level -- totally hands off, patient wise, with clinical supervisors under me who occasionally see patients and actually manage the clinical staff. I enjoyed a more clinical role earlier in my management career as it gave me the best of both worlds. I've worked for large healthcare systems as well as a small community hospital. If you are wanting to go into management as a nurse, it requires a lot of luck -- being the right person at the right time. You typically have to work your way up. The usual progression is floor nurse, charge nurse, clinical supervisor, manager, director -- and if you are the right person with the cut-throat mentality and drive, you can go further. You will often have to change hospitals in order to get into a better position, professionally. Politics -- so much politics. And people management -- it's like herding cats to get everyone on board and doing the right things, continuously.

I'm mid-way through my NP program. Because I won't do another 15-20 years of this. And you're either working 40-50 hours a week in management, or you're not in management. There's no part-time management. No flexibility. And, I like interacting with patients. I will likely take a pay cut as a new grad NP. It sucks, but is part of my long-term plan. Ten to fifteen years from now, I'll work part-time as a NP, and have a much higher quality of life than if I was still in management, working 40-50 hours a week for no appreciation from above or below.

If you want to go into management: Get your BSN from a great university. Become the best floor nurse you can. Be dependable. Get certified in your area. Join councils and committees. And while you're doing that, get your MSN. Do not get a MHA. MHA's are worthless unless you want to be a nursing home administrator. The only time I would recommend getting a MHA is if you are already in management and you need to get a master's degree and want a relatively easy degree. Even then, suck it up and get a MSN. And network, network, network. It's easier to do all of this if you are an extrovert and enjoy schmoozing.

Cut-throat is right... I've seen so many people become complete buttheads when they get that assistant nurse manager or nurse manager title. Sad really. And the people who deserve the positions never get them because they are too nice... or they get them and get chewed up and spit out by the system.

sorry... i'm a little jaded on the nursing aspects of healthcare. Which is why i left.
 
OP
G
Jul 4, 2016
81
10
Status
Pre-Health (Field Undecided)
Yeah you guys are right. Those are things I didn't quite think about. I know for sure I would like to do the NP route. So would it be better to do ABSN work for a number years then apply to NP school or do the entry level masters and do the FNP program they have there? I am asssuming it is 4 years in total length. Also is there a difference between DNP and FNP? the program I am looking at offers FNP.
 
7

762513

Yeah you guys are right. Those are things I didn't quite think about. I know for sure I would like to do the NP route. So would it be better to do ABSN work for a number years then apply to NP school or do the entry level masters and do the FNP program they have there? I am asssuming it is 4 years in total length. Also is there a difference between DNP and FNP? the program I am looking at offers FNP.
I would do FNP first and then decide if you want a DNP later. I wouldn't worry about that decision until your name has an RN behind it though.
 
Aug 2, 2017
14
13
Status
Other Health Professions Student
Cut-throat is right... I've seen so many people become complete buttheads when they get that assistant nurse manager or nurse manager title. Sad really. And the people who deserve the positions never get them because they are too nice... or they get them and get chewed up and spit out by the system.

sorry... i'm a little jaded on the nursing aspects of healthcare. Which is why i left.
I completely understand. I am not much of a schmoozer and would rather be able to just run my departments how they need to run. Unfortunately, I am forced to "work with" a variety of other departmental managers/directors to accomplish goals. Some of these people are so entrenched in the status-quo that they don't understand how/why we need to change processes. Thus, we end up losing money. Back in the glory days, it was easy to get paid by Medicare. Commercial payors also tended to pay well. Hospitals were flush with money. Not so, nowadays. Things are tight. And if you aren't busy schmoozing, you might find that your department isn't getting the resources it needs to continue to be competitive. Probably what you're seeing when these newly promoted people become "buttheads" is that they have pressure from above to cut costs while increasing productivity, producing better outcomes, and making patients happy. Middle management is a sucky place to be, honestly.
 

Noisewater-TDX

The Grumpiest Of Them All
Gold Donor
5+ Year Member
Nov 22, 2014
551
592
North Carolina
Status
Medical Student
\ Probably what you're seeing when these newly promoted people become "buttheads" is that they have pressure from above to cut costs while increasing productivity, producing better outcomes, and making patients happy. Middle management is a sucky place to be, honestly.
The 2 that come to mind are new. And we knew there was mass pressure from above about budget and such. I imagine their jobs are very political, which sounds terrible.
 

pamac

7+ Year Member
Mar 30, 2010
1,352
413
Status
Other Health Professions Student
The management projects and tasks I've been on have been miserable for me in that most of it was inefficient and unnecessary. It felt like the reports I filled out were passed on to someone who didn't read them, and the meetings were tedious. I'm not a Monday-Friday type of person. Management hours (in other words, regular business hours) steal the best hours of the week for running errands, vacationing, chores, etc.

The quality of life working as a nurse doing 3 shifts per week is pretty rad. The time off I save up is more efficiently used when I don't have to split it up over 8 hour days as well. When you work 5 days per week, it seems like you have to burn more of your time off than if you just have your 3 shifts. Another thing I love is how when I want to cut down to working one or two days per week for a couple months, its easy to do, and I'm still making good money. My typical thing to do is to take a month in both summer or winter and cut back to one or two shifts per week and just use PTO for the 2nd or 3rd shift for the month.

Yeah, management sucks for a whole host of reasons. Even if it is more money, you sacrifice a lot of other things, namely, time. If I put in the hours as a floor nurse that my manager puts in, I would probably make close to the amount that person makes. My projects in management felt just like being in school, with deadlines and people critiquing my work. If you want that, you don't need to go to the trouble of becoming a nurse.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 762513
7

762513

The management projects and tasks I've been on have been miserable for me in that most of it was inefficient and unnecessary. It felt like the reports I filled out were passed on to someone who didn't read them, and the meetings were tedious. I'm not a Monday-Friday type of person. Management hours (in other words, regular business hours) steal the best hours of the week for running errands, vacationing, chores, etc.

The quality of life working as a nurse doing 3 shifts per week is pretty rad. The time off I save up is more efficiently used when I don't have to split it up over 8 hour days as well. When you work 5 days per week, it seems like you have to burn more of your time off than if you just have your 3 shifts. Another thing I love is how when I want to cut down to working one or two days per week for a couple months, its easy to do, and I'm still making good money. My typical thing to do is to take a month in both summer or winter and cut back to one or two shifts per week and just use PTO for the 2nd or 3rd shift for the month.

Yeah, management sucks for a whole host of reasons. Even if it is more money, you sacrifice a lot of other things, namely, time. If I put in the hours as a floor nurse that my manager puts in, I would probably make close to the amount that person makes. My projects in management felt just like being in school, with deadlines and people critiquing my work. If you want that, you don't need to go to the trouble of becoming a nurse.
PAMAC I really enjoy reading your posts. You are always positive and on the mark.
 

pamac

7+ Year Member
Mar 30, 2010
1,352
413
Status
Other Health Professions Student
I don't know how positive I am about things, but I've figured out things that I like in life. There are things to dislike about nursing, and I realize I might have a pretty sweet gig at this point in my career, but the benefits of nursing are hard to deny, which is time off. But a lot of the good things are cancelled out if you despise your job, which I actually did at times depending on what department I was working in, or who I was working with. But if that's the case, I promise anyone that there is a sweet job out there in PACU, surgery, or any of several other nursing jobs out there. Just look around at where nurses go to finish out their careers, and you'll find the place to go and work to overcome burnout.

When I'm done with NP school and start practicing, I hope I can find something to do that doesn't put me into the rat race 5 days per week like I insist that I hate. I can just imagine a job that pays $150k for me to work 5 days a week and take call every 3rd weekend or something like that. Hopefully I don't give in and take something like that. I've also noticed that providers work a lot harder than I do as a nurse, and that's depressing. I don't see the docs and NPs sitting around chatting it up the whole shift.

It is nice to think that what I could do is probably make what I do now (which gets me by pretty well in my opinion), and work even less than I do now. But once money is there to be made, it's hard to justify not chasing a good portion of it if it means earlier retirement, or a cooler vacation, or debt paid off sooner.
 
OP
G
Jul 4, 2016
81
10
Status
Pre-Health (Field Undecided)
I don't know how positive I am about things, but I've figured out things that I like in life. There are things to dislike about nursing, and I realize I might have a pretty sweet gig at this point in my career, but the benefits of nursing are hard to deny, which is time off. But a lot of the good things are cancelled out if you despise your job, which I actually did at times depending on what department I was working in, or who I was working with. But if that's the case, I promise anyone that there is a sweet job out there in PACU, surgery, or any of several other nursing jobs out there. Just look around at where nurses go to finish out their careers, and you'll find the place to go and work to overcome burnout.

When I'm done with NP school and start practicing, I hope I can find something to do that doesn't put me into the rat race 5 days per week like I insist that I hate. I can just imagine a job that pays $150k for me to work 5 days a week and take call every 3rd weekend or something like that. Hopefully I don't give in and take something like that. I've also noticed that providers work a lot harder than I do as a nurse, and that's depressing. I don't see the docs and NPs sitting around chatting it up the whole shift.

It is nice to think that what I could do is probably make what I do now (which gets me by pretty well in my opinion), and work even less than I do now. But once money is there to be made, it's hard to justify not chasing a good portion of it if it means earlier retirement, or a cooler vacation, or debt paid off sooner.
Whats your opinions on NP education? I have heard some negativity from my nurse colleagues about their education. I have also looked at the curriculum of some of the programs and am unimpressed. I don't want to feel incompetent in the working world and practice on patients. However I am mostly interested in dermatology.
 

Noisewater-TDX

The Grumpiest Of Them All
Gold Donor
5+ Year Member
Nov 22, 2014
551
592
North Carolina
Status
Medical Student
I have heard some negativity from my nurse colleagues about their education. I have also looked at the curriculum of some of the programs and am unimpressed. I don't want to feel incompetent in the working world and practice on patients.
Reason # 1 why I'm going to med school. If I went the NP route, i would go to one of the 100% on campus schools (Duke comes to mind, those students were sharp). Learning to be a clinician online would not work for me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AdmiralChz
7

762513

Whats your opinions on NP education? I have heard some negativity from my nurse colleagues about their education. I have also looked at the curriculum of some of the programs and am unimpressed. I don't want to feel incompetent in the working world and practice on patients. However I am mostly interested in dermatology.
You should do the research on NP patient outcomes yourself instead of listening to the toxic people on SDN.
 

pamac

7+ Year Member
Mar 30, 2010
1,352
413
Status
Other Health Professions Student
Whats your opinions on NP education? I have heard some negativity from my nurse colleagues about their education. I have also looked at the curriculum of some of the programs and am unimpressed. I don't want to feel incompetent in the working world and practice on patients. However I am mostly interested in dermatology.
If you carry this fear with you, then go to medical school. You’ll have clinical rotations starting around your third year where you will have someone backing you up and making sure you don’t kill anybody. Then you’ll have a residency that starts a couple years later where you’ll have a lot on your plate with a lot of folks scrutinizing everything you do, and attending physicians watching you closely and giving you constructive feedback... and making sure you have extra things to do that you never thought you could do in one 80 hour work week. After 3 years minimum of that, you should feel better about your abilities.

Or go to PA school where they make you “drink from a firehose” as they like to tell us all, which apparently works out well because we all can imagine how effectively one can quenche one’s thirst from said firehose.

If you are unimpressed by what you read in various NP schools plans of study, don’t go. I’m less impressed about plenty of aspects of NP school, but I’m someone who is A) a nurse who B) went to nursing school for 4 years, and C) worked in several departmennts in an acute care setting, after having D) obtained other degrees directly pertinent to the medical field, and E) am actually an NP student. You can be unimpressed all you want because you don’t know what to look for.

I’ve railed on NP school recently, and it has its drawbacks. But I think that the biggest part of someone feeling incompetent has to do with your own personal work ethic and motivation. Nobody is going to drag you across the finish line. But I get the vibe that you don’t really want to put in what it takes to get through PA school or med school, let alone have what it takes to get into those programs. Soooooo...... shouldn’t you be excited about cirriculum that isn’t impressive to you? That’s right up your alley, and people have been taking the time to give you great insight despite your several attempts to get into PA school. That alone indiczates you have only one option that will allow you to get your name on a prescription pad so you can “just” work in dermatology.

You don’t really want to extend yourself, so don’t waste anyone’s time asking a question about what to do about NP schools less than impressive curriculum, because you unfortunately are a beggar in this regard, not a chooser. Beggars are in no position to pretend they have any other options.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 762513
About the Ads