MSUCOM vs. Any other in-state MD (not UM)

[femmegoblue]

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I understand what you're saying and your argument is logical, but that's not how the world works. Are you a MSU graduate? The merger isn't going to change programs' biases.

I have a question though. Is the merger going to honestly affect the many many residencies in Michigan that are directly run by MSUCOM? As in, it will be HARDER for DO graduates in Michigan to get those residencies?

 

[Neurality]

Jut thought I'd throw my 2 cents in here... I heard through the grapevine that MSCUOM's DPR ( Doctor-patient relationship) classes and training model have been adopted by several top tier Ivy League MD schools such as Yale. The school consistently ranks top in exam and communication skills ( Not that you need more help with communication skills 🙂).

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

What? It's not going to change anything. It's going to force AOA residences to go ACGME which will ALREADY have a bias. That's where it comes into play. Not sure why you thought I meant the other way.


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Now you've lost me. All I'm saying is that MD>DO when it comes to competitive specialties AND competitive programs in almost every specialty. Looking at the worst MD schools match list shows this

 

[cliquesh]

I have a question though. Is the merger going to honestly affect the many many residencies in Michigan that are directly run by MSUCOM? As in, it will be HARDER for DO graduates in Michigan to get those residencies?

No one knows really. It depends on how many former AOA residencies survive the merger, how many of those surviving residencies continue to focus on recruiting osteopathic students, and how traditional acgme programs perceive DOs post merger.

There are 140 AOA residencies in MI ranging from family medicine to orthopedic surgery http://opportunities.osteopathic.org. I didn't count, but it looks like more than half are in the acgme accreditation process. It kind of depends if these programs survive and remain DO oriented. I assume there will be less residency spots, at least initially, so it will be harder solely from a numbers perspective.

By the way, I didn't even consider AOA programs when I was a 4th year.

 

[femmegoblue]

No one knows really. It depends on how many former AOA residencies survive the merger, how many of those surviving residencies continue to focus on recruiting osteopathic students, and how traditional acgme programs perceive DOs post merger.

There are 140 AOA residencies in MI ranging from family medicine to orthopedic surgery http://opportunities.osteopathic.org. I didn't count, but it looks like more than half are in the acgme accreditation process. It kind of depends if these programs survive and remain DO oriented. I assume there will be less residency spots, at least initially, so it will be harder solely from a numbers perspective.

By the way, I didn't even consider AOA programs when I was a 4th year.

A fourth year at a DO or MD school?

 

[cliquesh]

A fourth year at a DO or MD school?

I'm a DO. I graduated in 2013. I'm now a 4th anesthesia resident.

 

[ATPsynthase123]

It is always MD over DO when it comes to residency matching. Even CNU will have a match list superior to any DO school and it won't even be close.

Okay I see you post stuff like this all the time so I gotta ask. Why are you even bothering applying DO if your opinion is so low of them and and their capabilities? I've seen you call it "being realistic", but there is a difference between realism an bleak pessimism. Not everything is Ortho and rainbows, but the way you talk about DOs it sounds like you think DOs are lucky to even place FM let alone anything outside of that (even though it happens all the time). I honestly think that if you applied DO and got in, you would be miserable.

So if you have such a dour outlook on the DO degree, why are you posting in the DO forum and applying to DO schools? It really sounds like you would be happier doing a post bacc, retaking the MCAT and applying MD only.

Like I'm to the point where I'm 90% sure you're a MeatTornado alt.


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[Wjldenver]

Okay I see you post stuff like this all the time so I gotta ask. Why are you even bothering applying DO if your opinion is so low of them and and their capabilities? I've seen you call it "being realistic", but there is a difference between realism an bleak pessimism. Not everything is Ortho and rainbows, but the way you talk about DOs it sounds like you think DOs are lucky to even place FM let alone anything outside of that (even though it happens all the time). I honestly think that if you applied DO and got in, you would be miserable.

So if you have such a dour outlook on the DO degree, why are you posting in the DO forum and applying to DO schools? It really sounds like you would be happier doing a post bacc, retaking the MCAT and applying MD only.

Like I'm to the point where I'm 90% sure you're a MeatTornado alt.


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I think people are just providing a realistic real world view to some overly optimistic DO pre-med's who are not even medical students yet. ...And have not gone through the match process and/or have tried to secure a professional position in the health care industry. Not every DO grad is going to have the same career opportunities as an MD grad. And going forward, the MD/DO competition is just going to accelerate for the most desirable positions. As other posters on this site have indicated to you, "I guess you are just going to need to learn some things the hard way".

 

[ATPsynthase123]

I think people are just providing a realistic real world view to some overly optimistic DO pre-med's who are not even medical students yet. ...And have not gone through the match process and/or have tried to secure a professional position in the health care industry. Not every DO grad is going to have the same career opportunities as an MD grad. And going forward, the MD/DO competition is just going to accelerate for the most desirable positions. As other posters on this site have indicated to you, "I guess you are just going to need to learn some things the hard way".

I know that DO grads don't have all of the same opportunities, I'll be one of the first to tell you that if you want Ortho or to do a residency at Harvard then don't go DO.

What I was asking as why does this dude even bother applying DO if he has such a soured opinion of them and their outcomes? Like I said earlier, "there is realism and the there is bleak pessimism" and his/her posts are by definition pessimism. It's a poor attitude, and he/she really thinks this poorly of the degree then he/she shouldn't apply DO.


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[AnatomyGrey12]

Okay I see you post stuff like this all the time so I gotta ask. Why are you even bothering applying DO if your opinion is so low of them and and their capabilities? I've seen you call it "being realistic", but there is a difference between realism an bleak pessimism. Not everything is Ortho and rainbows, but the way you talk about DOs it sounds like you think DOs are lucky to even place FM let alone anything outside of that (even though it happens all the time). I honestly think that if you applied DO and got in, you would be miserable.

So if you have such a dour outlook on the DO degree, why are you posting in the DO forum and applying to DO schools? It really sounds like you would be happier doing a post bacc, retaking the MCAT and applying MD only.

Like I'm to the point where I'm 90% sure you're a MeatTornado alt.


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How did you even pass the CARS section? Where have I ever expressed a negative opinion on the capabilities of DOs? Never. Sorry but the truths hurts here son. As a DO grad you will have less opportunities as an MD grad and that is 100% truth. And I'm not even talking about getting into competitive specialties like ortho, which is it's own kind of animal but even in PC fields like IM, Peds, OB/Gyn there are residency programs, no not just the top programs but normal low-mid tier programs, that won't even look at you becauske of your degree. This is the reality and too many pre-meds like you have no clue.

I have already received multiple acceptances and fully plan on matriculating. I applied DO because my stupid 18 year old self didn't know what he wanted to do in life and royally crapped on his GPA. I wrecked the MCAT so sorry but no I don't need to retake it. I am attending a DO school because, above all, I just want to be a physician. I don't have 40k lying around for an SMP and I really don't care about the degree compared to what it will allow me to do in life, which is treat people. I am very confident that I will be able to get the specialty I want regardless of degree because I know my capabilities and how I short changed myself early on in undergrad. But I also understand that there will be certain limits on what I can do or where I can go and I am 100% ok with that.

Understanding the reality of the situation does not make me pessimistic. I actually am pretty optimistic of how things will turn out for DOs in the next couple of years, but the reality is that a DO grad has to be better than his MD counterpart in almost every specialty to get the same spot.

 

[femmegoblue]

Can't we all just get along?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Can't we all just get along?

Sorry! Getting called out like that really set me off. Back to your question, if you know you want to stay in MI 100% and really have no interest in something competitive then honestly go where you feel the most comfortable, which appears to be MSU.

 

[femmegoblue]

Sorry! Getting called out like that really set me off. Back to your question, if you know you want to stay in MI 100% and really have no interest in something competitive then honestly go where you feel the most comfortable, which appears to be MSU.

Would you consider obgyn without a fellowship "competitive"?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Would you consider obgyn without a fellowship "competitive"?

Not really. More competitive than FM or peds sure but I would say it is "competitive". Just be a good student and you will be fine. Still try and do really well on the boards. If there is anything I've learned is that a good board score can never hurt and will open doors in most any specialty

 

[ATPsynthase123]

How did you even pass the CARS section? Where have I ever expressed a negative opinion on the capabilities of DOs? Never. Sorry but the truths hurts here son. As a DO grad you will have less opportunities as an MD grad and that is 100% truth. And I'm not even talking about getting into competitive specialties like ortho, which is it's own kind of animal but even in PC fields like IM, Peds, OB/Gyn there are residency programs, no not just the top programs but normal low-mid tier programs, that won't even look at you becauske of your degree. This is the reality and too many pre-meds like you have no clue.

I have already received multiple acceptances and fully plan on matriculating. I applied DO because my stupid 18 year old self didn't know what he wanted to do in life and royally crapped on his GPA. I wrecked the MCAT so sorry but no I don't need to retake it. I am attending a DO school because, above all, I just want to be a physician. I don't have 40k lying around for an SMP and I really don't care about the degree compared to what it will allow me to do in life, which is treat people. I am very confident that I will be able to get the specialty I want regardless of degree because I know my capabilities and how I short changed myself early on in undergrad. But I also understand that there will be certain limits on what I can do or where I can go and I am 100% ok with that.

Understanding the reality of the situation does not make me pessimistic. I actually am pretty optimistic of how things will turn out for DOs in the next couple of years, but the reality is that a DO grad has to be better than his MD counterpart in almost every specialty to get the same spot.

CARS was actually one of my highest sections lol

Sorry if that was a little agitating, but sometimes you do come off as more a pessimist than a realist. That may not be the intention though.

I get it though. No offense was intended, but I had to ask about it because your posts do read as bleak. I do agree that DOs have a harder time, placing. That is a known fact that I have no issues with. I want to go into a decently non competitive specialty and work in Appalachia, which is a relatively undesirable area. DOs place frequently in the ACGME residencies nearby, so maybe my opinion is skewed.


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[OrdinaryDO]

Now you've lost me. All I'm saying is that MD>DO when it comes to competitive specialties AND competitive programs in almost every specialty. Looking at the worst MD schools match list shows this

You are wrong..so, please, just stop. We are talking about a VERY SPECIFIC school being compared to two SPECIFIC MD schools where in this case the DO school is the superior school. PDs are very well educated and do not just look at the MD or DO credentials. They compare the schools of each applicsnt, their reputation, how successful they have been in the past, and most importantly the students success in school, boards, shelf exams, rotations, and interviewing skills. MD>DO may be true in many areas, but I assure you THIS is the exception. We aren't comparing Harvard to Liberty. We are comparing MSUCOM to an unproven school and an unworthy school.

 

[Dustbowl12]

Personally would go MSUCOM over wayne and cmed

 

[femmegoblue]

Personally would go MSUCOM over wayne and cmed

What reasons for that choice?

 

[DrBowtie]

You are wrong..so, please, just stop. We are talking about a VERY SPECIFIC school being compared to two SPECIFIC MD schools where in this case the DO school is the superior school. PDs are very well educated and do not just look at the MD or DO credentials. They compare the schools of each applicsnt, their reputation, how successful they have been in the past, and most importantly the students success in school, boards, shelf exams, rotations, and interviewing skills. MD>DO may be true in many areas, but I assure you THIS is the exception. We aren't comparing Harvard to Liberty. We are comparing MSUCOM to an unproven school and an unworthy school.

What people are telling you is there is an ERAS filter that some programs use where DO Apps don't even hit the PDs desk for review.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

What people are telling you is there is an ERAS filter that some programs use where DO Apps don't even hit the PDs desk for review.

I understand that. However, I am talking with respect to what the OP is asking about. He/She is not asking what is the best chance he/she has at gaining acceptance to a top institution. He/She is asking which is the better school, essentially. I am aware of the MD vs DO bias and I acknowledge that 99% of the time a MD will open more doors for you, but there are exceptions.

 

[acapnial]

I understand that. However, I am talking with respect to what the OP is asking about. He/She is not asking what is the best chance he/she has at gaining acceptance to a top institution. He/She is asking which is the better school, essentially. I am aware of the MD vs DO bias and I acknowledge that 99% of the time a MD will open more doors for you, but there are exceptions.

He/she is most definitely worried about whether he/she can get into his/her competitive fellowship of choice. And this isn't an exception to the usual bias, PD's do not give MSUCOM applicants any more weight than any other DO school.

Would you consider obgyn without a fellowship "competitive"?

Not by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

He/she is most definitely worried about whether he/she can get into his/her competitive fellowship of choice. And this isn't an exception to the usual bias, PD's do not give MSUCOM applicants any more weight than any other DO school.



Not by any stretch of the imagination.

We can agree to disagree. I HIGHLY doubt PDs who view Applications do not take into account a school's history and reputation for producing great resident prospects. That is my opinion and I think it is silly to think 100% of the time MD>DO...

Edit: if you are a good enough applicant, you will get into a respected residency/fellowship...just he prepare to work hard.


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[Scrubs101]

Can someone explain to me the issues with wayne? Is it just the administration? I was always under the impression it was MI's 2nd best state MD school


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[acapnial]

We can agree to disagree. I HIGHLY doubt PDs who view Applications do not take into account a school's history and reputation for producing great resident prospects. That is my opinion and I think it is silly to think 100% of the time MD>DO...

Edit: if you are a good enough applicant, you will get into a respected residency/fellowship...just he prepare to work hard.


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Programs that feel like they know msucom, have taken msucom grads and like them, sure, they totally will assign grads from that school some value, you're right. But at programs that don't really know either school, which will be most of them outside of region, tie will usually go to the MD. Or at many programs they'll pick the MD even if he's worse, as long as he's not a LOT worse. It sucks, and PD's probably shouldn't do it, but it's their program to run and that's how plenty of them run it.

Look, it ultimately means other PD's who aren't stuffy about degrees get some high quality residents that the above mentioned PD's miss out on.

I totally agree that if you're a good osteopathic applicant you can get into plenty of well respected residencies without much issue in most specialties. Still locked out of the residencies with kiss-my-ass level of prestige though, for the people that's important to.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

Programs that feel like they know msucom, have taken msucom grads and like them, sure, they totally will assign grads from that school some value, you're right. But at programs that don't really know either school, which will be most of them outside of region, tie will usually go to the MD. Or at many programs they'll pick the MD even if he's worse, as long as he's not a LOT worse. It sucks, and PD's probably shouldn't do it, but it's their program to run and that's how plenty of them run it.

Look, it ultimately means other PD's who aren't stuffy about degrees get some high quality residents that the above mentioned PD's miss out on.

I totally agree that if you're a good osteopathic applicant you can get into plenty of well respected residencies without much issue in most specialties. Still locked out of the residencies with kiss-my-ass level of prestige though, for the people that's important to.

I can respect that and agree with what you are saying.


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[Dr. Death]

Okay I see you post stuff like this all the time so I gotta ask. Why are you even bothering applying DO if your opinion is so low of them and and their capabilities? I've seen you call it "being realistic", but there is a difference between realism an bleak pessimism. Not everything is Ortho and rainbows, but the way you talk about DOs it sounds like you think DOs are lucky to even place FM let alone anything outside of that (even though it happens all the time). I honestly think that if you applied DO and got in, you would be miserable.

So if you have such a dour outlook on the DO degree, why are you posting in the DO forum and applying to DO schools? It really sounds like you would be happier doing a post bacc, retaking the MCAT and applying MD only.

Like I'm to the point where I'm 90% sure you're a MeatTornado alt.


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@AnatomyGrey12 is one of the few pre-DOs with his head on straight.

MD is better than DO 99% of the time. @OrdinaryDO can say whatever he wants about anecdotal exceptions to the rule but they don't apply here. Exceptions would be if you are interested in primary care and have free tuition at a DO vs loans at an MD. Or if you have to stay in a certain geographic location due to family circumstances.

And by the way shame on everyone for not calling out @SlugMD for saying obgyn is a surgical sub specialty. I'd be willing to bet if you surveyed 100 obgyn less than 5 would consider themselves "surgery subspecialists." Look at charting outcomes, it isn't that competitive.

OP go to the MD schools if you get in. You may want OB now but you may not in 4 years. Go to the school where more doors are open.

 

[ATPsynthase123]

@AnatomyGrey12 is one of the few pre-DOs with his head on straight.

MD is better than DO 99% of the time. @OrdinaryDO can say whatever he wants about anecdotal exceptions to the rule but they don't apply here. Exceptions would be if you are interested in primary care and have free tuition at a DO vs loans at an MD. Or if you have to stay in a certain geographic location due to family circumstances.

And by the way shame on everyone for not calling out @SlugMD for saying obgyn is a surgical sub specialty. I'd be willing to bet if you surveyed 100 obgyn less than 5 would consider themselves "surgery subspecialists." Look at charting outcomes, it isn't that competitive.

OP go to the MD schools if you get in. You may want OB now but you may not in 4 years. Go to the school where more doors are open.

Well for me DO is a perfectly viable option. I want to do IM, be able to stay close to home during my education, and I will work in the Appalachian region which is very DO friendly.

I understand his qualms, I just think there is a difference between being realistic about our options and being a pessimistic fatalist. The future of DOs is looking better than it ever has, we need to convey that in a truthful realistic fashion. Not in a doom and gloom MeatTornado-esque fashion.


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[SlugMD]

Shame on who? No one is calling me out because everyone knows that obstetrics and gynecology is a type of surgery. Surgery of the female reproductive system and delivery of babies to be exact. No where did I say that it was hard to get into. In fact, OBGYN is the "least" competitive surgery in terms of average Step 1 score. I'm pointing out that fellowships after residency are harder to obtain as a DO than an MD. Just to make it absolutely clear, I did NOT say impossible, I said harder.

I think you are trying too hard to attack me so please don't come here and argue that OBGYN is not surgery because everyone knows it is. If you reread my post, I never used the word "subspecialty" as you eronneously claim.

I labeled OBGYN as a "surgical specialty" because it is a type of surgery. General surgery, urology, ophthalmology, ENT, neurosurgery, orthopedics are other "surgical specialties"

People become "subspecialists" with fellowships AFTER residency.

 

[Scrubs101]

Hey Mods, i think @femmegoblue got her answer. This thread seems to just be a flame war at this point


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[ATPsynthase123]

Hey Mods, i think @femmegoblue got her answer. This thread seems to just be a flame war at this point


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I agree. Kill this abomination of a thread


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[MADD!!!]

Thanks for all the replies, guys! I'm now officially confused as ever

You're going to get a lot of different answers. Your success will be determined much more by YOU and YOUR performance in medical school than either the MD or DO degree from Michigan. IF you want to attend a residency outside of Michigan, then go to the MD one. If you want to stay in Michigan, attend the school you feel happier/more comfortable at. If it's MSUCOM, go there. If it's Wayne or CNU, go there.

Michigan is an IMPORTER of medical students..... not only do they have enough slots for all of their residents, but it's because of the few states like Michigan that allow us from many different states to even become specialized rather than just PCP's. Your slots are secured, all you need are average, if not slightly below average to get the residency you want.

Either way you'll be more than fine, no wrong choices here. I like to call these "Happy Problems." 😀

 

[MADD!!!]

It is always MD over DO when it comes to residency matching. Even CNU will have a match list superior to any DO school and it won't even be close.

No Way! Take a second look at MSUCOM's OPTI. Almost half of every specialty residency is setup by their affiliated hospitals. Having strong in-house ties PLUS being a publicly funded DO program > arguably the worst USMD program on the market today.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

@AnatomyGrey12 is one of the few pre-DOs with his head on straight.

MD is better than DO 99% of the time. @OrdinaryDO can say whatever he wants about anecdotal exceptions to the rule but they don't apply here. Exceptions would be if you are interested in primary care and have free tuition at a DO vs loans at an MD. Or if you have to stay in a certain geographic location due to family circumstances.

And by the way shame on everyone for not calling out @SlugMD for saying obgyn is a surgical sub specialty. I'd be willing to bet if you surveyed 100 obgyn less than 5 would consider themselves "surgery subspecialists." Look at charting outcomes, it isn't that competitive.

OP go to the MD schools if you get in. You may want OB now but you may not in 4 years. Go to the school where more doors are open.

You go to OSU, Right? Listen, I don't think you read all of the messages on this topic or else you would have noticed I came to an agreement with another member on this forum that everyone could agree with. Even you wrote "99% of the time" in your post..this IS one of those exceptions for this SPECIFIC case. You can say whatever it is that you like, but I have been around these boards for almost a decade and I am only sharing my experience and what I have learned from working with physicians and in hospitals across three states for the last 6 years of my life. I'm not blowing smoke and I'm not saying I'm 100% correct, but you would be mistaken to come in here and try to tell who is "right" and who is "wrong." Drop it..please don't tag me in your posts.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

You are wrong..so, please, just stop. We are talking about a VERY SPECIFIC school being compared to two SPECIFIC MD schools where in this case the DO school is the superior school. PDs are very well educated and do not just look at the MD or DO credentials. They compare the schools of each applicsnt, their reputation, how successful they have been in the past, and most importantly the students success in school, boards, shelf exams, rotations, and interviewing skills. MD>DO may be true in many areas, but I assure you THIS is the exception. We aren't comparing Harvard to Liberty. We are comparing MSUCOM to an unproven school and an unworthy school.

No I'm not wrong. In this specific situation if OP genuinely knows that she 100% wants to just match any OB spot in Michigan then yes going to MSU will benefit her. To any other programs outside the region sorry DO comes after the MD applicants, yes even the CNU ones.

I can respect that and agree with what you are saying.


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What he said was my point. So we are actually in agreement here.

No Way! Take a second look at MSUCOM's OPTI. Almost half of every specialty residency is setup by their affiliated hospitals. Having strong in-house ties PLUS being a publicly funded DO program > arguably the worst USMD program on the market today.

If you are just looking to just match ANY program in that region then yes sure, which I have already said that I agree with. Everyone here makes fun of and bashes CNU I can assure you they will have a match list full of matches we would label as "killer" if they were on a DO list. The moment you want to match something competitive or out of the MSU region then the MD gets you a lot farther than the DO will. It's just the truth, and it is something I have come to understand and accept.

 

[femmegoblue]

No I'm not wrong. In this specific situation if OP genuinely knows that she 100% wants to just match any OB spot in Michigan then yes going to MSU will benefit her. To any other programs outside the region sorry DO comes after the MD applicants, yes even the CNU ones.



What he said was my point. So we are actually in agreement here.



If you are just looking to just match ANY program in that region then yes sure, which I have already said that I agree with. Everyone here makes fun of and bashes CNU I can assure you they will have a match list full of matches we would label as "killer" if they were on a DO list. The moment you want to match something competitive or out of the MSU region then the MD gets you a lot farther than the DO will. It's just the truth, and it is something I have come to understand and accept.

And you think that regardless of CMED never having produced a match list, it would still benefit me to potentially go there over MSUCOM? Genuinely asking.

 

[Dr. Death]

And you think that regardless of CMED never having produced a match list, it would still benefit me to potentially go there over MSUCOM? Genuinely asking.

By going DO you'll close doors for yourself. If you are OK with that and are locked into the idea you want OB in Michigan, it doesn't much matter where you go and MSUCOM may in fact be better for you. Many people prefer not to close those doors before they even start medical school and decide what they do and do not like. Even though CMED may have never produced a match list, you keep all your doors open because of the 2 letters after your name. It may not be right or fair but it is a fact.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

And you think that regardless of CMED never having produced a match list, it would still benefit me to potentially go there over MSUCOM? Genuinely asking.

What Dr. Death says here. Whether or not this is even close to fair doesn't matter, it's just the reality. What if you like academic medicine? What if you don't do so hot on the boards (an MD with a 215 can still match a lot of specialties out of the top ones, a DO cannot). I always use Gen Surg as an example. Basically an MD has a good chance to match as long as he isn't picky with location, has an ok board score, and didn't fail anything. A DO has to be above average. Another is IM. A very average MD can match a university program without a lot of effort, an average DO cannot. It's just those kinds of things to think about.

By going DO you'll close doors for yourself. If you are OK with that and are locked into the idea you want OB in Michigan, it doesn't much matter where you go and MSUCOM may in fact be better for you. Many people prefer not to close those doors before they even start medical school and decide what they do and do not like. Even though CMED may have never produced a match list, you keep all your doors open because of the 2 letters after your name. It may not be right or fair but it is a fact.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

Everyone on here likes to think in a small bubble of tier 1 academic hospitals and residencies. If you trust yourself and you know what kind of person you are within the academic field, then you will be fine. I chose my state DO school over my state MD school because I know I have it in me to get into any residency I want. Now, I also have no interest in some high yield residencies like ENT, Derm, or any crazy surgical specialties. Therefore I chose the welcoming atmosphere and reputation my school has to help guide me through my career. To me, my lifestyle and educational life is important and my school is the best fit for me. Do whatever you think is best. If you wanna go into a tough residency, good academic residency, or do pioneering research, then yes go MD > DO every time. But, don't listen to everything they tell you on here because often times it has no evidence behind it and it is strictly opinion based. The only neurosurgeon in NWA is a DO and I was there when our hospital recruited him. The hospital CEO and board members coached everyone as to what to do when they escorted him by for his tour. DO is only as restricted as you let it be.

 

[MADD!!!]

Everyone on here likes to think in a small bubble of tier 1 academic hospitals and residencies. If you trust yourself and you know what kind of person you are within the academic field, then you will be fine. I chose my state DO school over my state MD school because I know I have it in me to get into any residency I want. Now, I also have no interest in some high yield residencies like ENT, Derm, or any crazy surgical specialties. Therefore I chose the welcoming atmosphere and reputation my school has to help guide me through my career. To me, my lifestyle and educational life is important and my school is the best fit for me. Do whatever you think is best. If you wanna go into a tough residency, good academic residency, or do pioneering research, then yes go MD > DO every time. But, don't listen to everything they tell you on here because often times it has no evidence behind it and it is strictly opinion based. The only neurosurgeon in NWA is a DO and I was there when our hospital recruited him. The hospital CEO and board members coached everyone as to what to do when they escorted him by for his tour. DO is only as restricted as you let it be.

Yup, couldn't have worded it any better. If I elaborate any more then we're going in circles.

This is one argument and AnatomyGrey and Dr. Death's sentiments are another. Make what you think is the best choice for you.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Everyone on here likes to think in a small bubble of tier 1 academic hospitals and residencies.

This is 100% false. I am not talking about top tier residencies or the uber competitive specialties. There are very normal, average NOT top tier residencies in every specialty, including peds, OBgyn, community IM, and even FM who will either eliminate your app completely because you are a DO or will set the bar higher for you than your MD counterpart. This is 100% reality and every pre-med needs to understand this. This is the true limitation of going DO. If you are ok with it then DO is a fantastic option if you want to be a physician but don't have the high stats that get you into an MD school.

Also your example of the neurosurgeon has nothing to do with this argument.

This is one argument and AnatomyGrey and Dr. Death's sentiments are another. Make what you think is the best choice for you

No, there is reality and then there is fantasy. Again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with going DO, that is not the argument, but understanding the real issues that come from that. DOs make outstanding physicians and this has nothing to do with their capabilities. But every pre-DO needs to understand the true limitations that come from choosing to go to a DO school, even if it is their only option.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

This is 100% false. I am not talking about top tier residencies or the uber competitive specialties. There are very normal, average NOT top tier residencies in every specialty, including peds, OBgyn, community IM, and even FM who will either eliminate your app completely because you are a DO or will set the bar higher for you than your MD counterpart. This is 100% reality and every pre-med needs to understand this. This is the true limitation of going DO. If you are ok with it then DO is a fantastic option if you want to be a physician but don't have the high stats that get you into an MD school.

Also your example of the neurosurgeon has nothing to do with this argument.



No, there is reality and then there is fantasy. Again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with going DO, that is not the argument, but understanding the real issues that come from that. DOs make outstanding physicians and this has nothing to do with their capabilities. But every pre-DO needs to understand the true limitations that come from choosing to go to a DO school, even if it is their only option.

All I am going to say is if you don't have confidence in your ability to do well in a well-know, very established DO school...well, maybe you should go to the inferior MD school. I will not compromise my education and life-style for two letters at the end of my name. I can ASSURE you that I will get into whatever residency I decide to set my sights upon. How will I do this? I will be realistic, I will do great on boards, I will do very well at my audition rotations, and I will hopefully leave a very good and long-lasting impression with PDs. Your argument is redundant and disheartening. Do you know how many residencies there are in this country? Of all of the AOA residencies, how many will be ACGME accredited by 2020? How many ACGME residencies automatically screen for DO applicants? I find it funny that people are so sure about this "MD>DO no matter what" sentiment and even more surprised by your ability to rule out the fact that PDs who do account for DO applicants actually take into account the school they are coming from. If you ever get curious, I urge you to go to the "residency/fellowship" forum on SDN and look around. This question has been brought up numerous times to PDs who were nice enough to offer the opportunity for an "Ask me anything" thread. I have yet to see a single PD say they do not consider DO applicants. Actually, the response usually aligns with "we want the candidate who is the best fit for our program." Obviously there are some that screen out DOs, but I would venture to say that those programs are in the minority. Why don't you encourage people instead of feeding them opinionated pieces of information.

 

[MADD!!!]

This is 100% false. I am not talking about top tier residencies or the uber competitive specialties. There are very normal, average NOT top tier residencies in every specialty, including peds, OBgyn, community IM, and even FM who will either eliminate your app completely because you are a DO or will set the bar higher for you than your MD counterpart. This is 100% reality and every pre-med needs to understand this. This is the true limitation of going DO. If you are ok with it then DO is a fantastic option if you want to be a physician but don't have the high stats that get you into an MD school.

Also your example of the neurosurgeon has nothing to do with this argument.



No, there is reality and then there is fantasy. Again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with going DO, that is not the argument, but understanding the real issues that come from that. DOs make outstanding physicians and this has nothing to do with their capabilities. But every pre-DO needs to understand the true limitations that come from choosing to go to a DO school, even if it is their only option.

-____- AND THERE ARE RESIDENCIES THAT WONT CONSIDER YOU IF YOU COME FROM A LOW-TIER MD SCHOOL.

The point you're not getting here is that yea not EVERY SINGLE RESIDENCY will consider me, but so what?!!! There are more than enough residencies that will if I just have AVERAGE (actually below average because average is 230 which I consider really high; more like 210+) board scores.

For the student going to MSUCOM, their schools DO residencies (yes, even post-merger) have slots in every residency and will give preference to them first. Many of them have in-house fellowships. True, this person WONT EVEN BE INTERVIEWED at places like UCLA or UNC-CHAPEL HILL but if they went to an MD school they would've. Ok so what?! I just won't go there.

And after doing loads and loads of research, IM is not that competitive nor are the fellowships (except for GI) because all of the huge profit margins in them are dying and GI's colonoscopy reimbursements suck now, in a few years it's going to be much easier to get into.

As for the competitive specialties, most MD students with their doors open don't go to them so chill. If someone was on here saying they wanted to be an interventional radiologist or an ENT, I would make your argument.


People need to stop bitching. I agree not every MD residency will consider DO's, but more than enough will. The people that get butt hurt are the ones who get a 250+ board score and can't go to UCLA or UNC because theyre a DO (which is true and this is an example of a closed door) But believe me, barring no red flags they get just about any specialty they want SOMEWHERE

I've done my research EXTENSIVLEY and will show you many MD residencies with in-house fellowships in everything that have plenty of DO's in them (500 DO students applying for 7,500 IM positions isn't so hard to plug them into mid-tier programs)

 

[MADD!!!]

Also I think which DO school you go to is very important, which people don't talk about. If a DO school has a mid to low tier MD schools nearby in a state that has many residency options, then choices are plentiful for them.

Ex's include Florida, NY, Ohio, and Michigan. A student from Touro Nevada let's say that only has 1 MD school with practically no residency slots will be harder for them to compete against MD's for a good IM slot in a different states academic IM program.

 

[DrBowtie]

All I am going to say is if you don't have confidence in your ability to do well in a well-know, very established DO school...well, maybe you should go to the inferior MD school. I will not compromise my education and life-style for two letters at the end of my name. I can ASSURE you that I will get into whatever residency I decide to set my sights upon. How will I do this? I will be realistic, I will do great on boards, I will do very well at my audition rotations, and I will hopefully leave a very good and long-lasting impression with PDs. Your argument is redundant and disheartening. Do you know how many residencies there are in this country? Of all of the AOA residencies, how many will be ACGME accredited by 2020? How many ACGME residencies automatically screen for DO applicants? I find it funny that people are so sure about this "MD>DO no matter what" sentiment and even more surprised by your ability to rule out the fact that PDs who do account for DO applicants actually take into account the school they are coming from. If you ever get curious, I urge you to go to the "residency/fellowship" forum on SDN and look around. This question has been brought up numerous times to PDs who were nice enough to offer the opportunity for an "Ask me anything" thread. I have yet to see a single PD say they do not consider DO applicants. Actually, the response usually aligns with "we want the candidate who is the best fit for our program." Obviously there are some that screen out DOs, but I would venture to say that those programs are in the minority. Why don't you encourage people instead of feeding them opinionated pieces of information.

SDN PD Sample bias?

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NRMP-2016-Program-Director-Survey.pdf

I'll point you to the percentage gap between US Seniors and Osteopathic applicants considered for interview.

The 2014 version had graduate of US allopathic more important by a wide margin over graduate of well regarded US school.

 

[Dr. Death]

Also I think which DO school you go to is very important, which people don't talk about. If a DO school has a mid to low tier MD schools nearby in a state that has many residency options, then choices are plentiful for them.

Ex's include Florida, NY, Ohio, and Michigan. A student from Touro Nevada let's say that only has 1 MD school with practically no residency slots will be harder for them to compete against MD's for a good IM slot in a different states academic IM program.

Or DO schools with their own residencies.

 

[MADD!!!]

Or DO schools with their own residencies.

No I'm talking about MD residencies from each of these DO school's local MD schools teaching hospitals.

 

[Dr. Death]

All I am going to say is if you don't have confidence in your ability to do well in a well-know, very established DO school...well, maybe you should go to the inferior MD school. I will not compromise my education and life-style for two letters at the end of my name. I can ASSURE you that I will get into whatever residency I decide to set my sights upon. How will I do this? I will be realistic, I will do great on boards, I will do very well at my audition rotations, and I will hopefully leave a very good and long-lasting impression with PDs. Your argument is redundant and disheartening. Do you know how many residencies there are in this country? Of all of the AOA residencies, how many will be ACGME accredited by 2020? How many ACGME residencies automatically screen for DO applicants? I find it funny that people are so sure about this "MD>DO no matter what" sentiment and even more surprised by your ability to rule out the fact that PDs who do account for DO applicants actually take into account the school they are coming from. If you ever get curious, I urge you to go to the "residency/fellowship" forum on SDN and look around. This question has been brought up numerous times to PDs who were nice enough to offer the opportunity for an "Ask me anything" thread. I have yet to see a single PD say they do not consider DO applicants. Actually, the response usually aligns with "we want the candidate who is the best fit for our program." Obviously there are some that screen out DOs, but I would venture to say that those programs are in the minority. Why don't you encourage people instead of feeding them opinionated pieces of information.

Every line in this post is a straw man argument until this point. Whatever the number is, it is variable by state, school and specialty. Each applicant needs to make a conscious decision before choosing a school on how much this will affect them.

 

[MADD!!!]

@Dr Death

For a DO student to match well for IM or certain subspecialties, they need to be smarter. They need to go out and hunt for which programs are historically DO friendly and have accepted them in the past for their particularly specialty of interest. If they do that and have the right board score, they pose a very high chance for matching at those places.

Is it more work and a nuisance? Yea, but whatever you still get there. Too many ppl on SDN worry about not being able to get an interview at NYU or Ann Harbor for IM. Big deal... it's not enough to go to an MD school you'll hate for 4 years vs a DO school you have a better fit in.

Also please name me a few specialties where you think Going DO will close a lot more doors for you than MD. I know some but want to see which ones you or @AnatomyGrey12 are thinking of because I'm harping on IM a lot.

 

[Dr. Death]

@Dr Death

For a DO student to match well for IM or certain subspecialties, they need to be smarter. They need to go out and hunt for which programs are historically DO friendly and have accepted them in the past for their particularly specialty of interest. If they do that and have the right board score, they pose a very high chance for matching at those places.

Is it more work and a nuisance? Yea, but whatever you still get there. Too many ppl on SDN worry about not being able to get an interview at NYU or Ann Harbor for IM. Big deal... it's not enough to go to an MD school you'll hate for 4 years vs a DO school you have a better fit in.

Also please name me a few specialties where you think Going DO will close a lot more doors for you than MD. I know some but want to see which ones you or @AnatomyGrey12 are thinking of because I'm harping on IM a lot.

I keep saying "closing doors" but I should probably be more specific. I don't disagree with any of the above, but as a DO your margin for error is a lot slimmer. The top DO students with the right board scores are going to match well, as they have for a while. The 75% of DO students who don't have standout board scores and high class ranks can't compete with MD students with similar board scores and class ranks. This is the case in virtually every ACGME residency currently. MD residencies prefer MD's to DO's, so as a DO you need to stand out more. It's difficult to know if you'll be a standout DO student before you even set foot in the classroom, thus going to an MD program is the safer option.

 

[MADD!!!]

.