MSUCOM vs. Any other in-state MD (not UM)

[MADD!!!]

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You can post the data, but your conclusions and context hold no weight. Being within the MSUCOM OPTI doesn't mean what you think it does in terms of preferential treatment. Secondly only about half of those had applied for ACGME accreditation. Third they are mostly small community programs that don't give you exposure to all facets of training and may ship you off to bigger centers for exposure where your role is highly variable. Fourth, being Q4 for 4 years would be brutal.

And look at FAUs first or second year graduating class match list compared to MSU: http://med.fau.edu/newsandevents/April FYN Newsletter.pdf

Those are some pretty sweet matches! One last argument I have over this is... Have you guys actually noticed how many MD's don't match per specialty?

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2016.pdf

-Pg. 12 shows that, for example Anesthesiology, there were 1,108 U.S. MD Senior applicants, yet only 774 of them matched! (774/1108 = 69.9% match rate)
- Let's take a look at Radiology.... you know, one of those specialties that going to an MD school opens more doors for you: 560 U.S. MD applicants, only 93 of them matched (there were 151 available spaces) so 93/560= 16.6% match rate, and again this is for U.S. MD SENIORS!!!! and overall they took up 61.5% of the available slots even though there were much more U.S MD applicants than spots available.

Fun Fact: Out of the remaining 58 radiology spaces, DO's got 26 of them!! And seeing how there are about 1/4 DO graduates per year to MD graduates, and that DO's ALSO have their own Radiology residencies.... am I going crazy here? I must be missing something. 😛

@AnatomyGrey12 @Goro @Scrubs101

 

[Goro]

The competitive specialties are competitive for a reason, whether DO or MD. An MD isn't going to waltz into a choice Opthal residency merely because of his/her MD.

The old ACGME E-ROAD specialties – emergency medicine (EM), radiology, ophthalmology, anesthesiology, and dermatology used to be quite desirable, both for pay and for lifestyle. As such, these were considered to be hard to get into for DOs. Now, the E, R and A are all rather DO friendly.
I have to go over NRMP data again. I remember seeing something that four competitive specialties like Neuro and Rads had 10% DOs in PGY1. There were two others, but I'm spacing on them. Ortho may have been one. It's getting late. I need a snack.

Those are some pretty sweet matches! One last argument I have over this is... Have you guys actually noticed how many MD's don't match per specialty?

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2016.pdf

-Pg. 12 shows that, for example Anesthesiology, there were 1,108 U.S. MD Senior applicants, yet only 774 of them matched! (774/1108 = 69.9% match rate)
- Let's take a look at Radiology.... you know, one of those specialties that going to an MD school opens more doors for you: 560 U.S. MD applicants, only 93 of them matched (there were 151 available spaces) so 93/560= 16.6% match rate, and again this is for U.S. MD SENIORS!!!! and overall they took up 61.5% of the available slots even though there were much more U.S MD applicants than spots available.

Fun Fact: Out of the remaining 58 radiology spaces, DO's got 26 of them!! And seeing how there are about 1/4 DO graduates per year to MD graduates, and that DO's ALSO have their own Radiology residencies.... am I going crazy here? I must be missing something. 😛

@AnatomyGrey12 @Goro @Scrubs101

 

[DrBowtie]

Those are some pretty sweet matches! One last argument I have over this is... Have you guys actually noticed how many MD's don't match per specialty?

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2016.pdf

-Pg. 12 shows that, for example Anesthesiology, there were 1,108 U.S. MD Senior applicants, yet only 774 of them matched! (774/1108 = 69.9% match rate)
- Let's take a look at Radiology.... you know, one of those specialties that going to an MD school opens more doors for you: 560 U.S. MD applicants, only 93 of them matched (there were 151 available spaces) so 93/560= 16.6% match rate, and again this is for U.S. MD SENIORS!!!! and overall they took up 61.5% of the available slots even though there were much more U.S MD applicants than spots available.

Fun Fact: Out of the remaining 58 radiology spaces, DO's got 26 of them!! And seeing how there are about 1/4 DO graduates per year to MD graduates, and that DO's ALSO have their own Radiology residencies.... am I going crazy here? I must be missing something. 😛

@AnatomyGrey12 @Goro @Scrubs101

See this is why you have no idea what you are taking about. Rads and Anesthesia have both PGY1 and PGY2 spots known as categorical and advanced.

You again post data with painfully wrong analysis. Really you just need to stop posting about this stuff. Leave it to those who know how it works.

 

[MADD!!!]

See this is why you have no idea what you are taking about. Rads and Anesthesia have both PGY1 and PGY2 spots known as categorical and advanced.

You again post data with painfully wrong analysis. Really you just need to stop posting about this stuff. Leave it to those who know how it works.

Please refer to the next pages of the NRMP, which show both the PGY1 and PGY2 positions for Anesthesia and Radiology (which the data AGAIN reaffirms my point, but nice try). Instead of bickering at me, go read the damn thing and then come back and tell me something new. Do I have to spoon feed everything on here?!!!

 

[FCMike11]

Please refer to the next pages of the NRMP, which show both the PGY1 and PGY2 positions for Anesthesia and Radiology (which the data AGAIN reaffirms my point, but nice try). Instead of bickering at me, go read the damn thing and then come back and tell me something new. Do I have to spoon feed everything on here?!!!

Need more chill man.

Aren't you still in undergrad as well?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using SDN mobile

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Please refer to the next pages of the NRMP, which show both the PGY1 and PGY2 positions for Anesthesia and Radiology (which the data AGAIN reaffirms my point, but nice try). Instead of bickering at me, go read the damn thing and then come back and tell me something new. Do I have to spoon feed everything on here?!!!

No he is totally right. Your interpretation on this is really off the mark.

 

[DrBowtie]

Please refer to the next pages of the NRMP, which show both the PGY1 and PGY2 positions for Anesthesia and Radiology (which the data AGAIN reaffirms my point, but nice try). Instead of bickering at me, go read the damn thing and then come back and tell me something new. Do I have to spoon feed everything on here?!!!

See Table 14. Percent unmatched for US.

 

[Scrubs101]

Those are some pretty sweet matches! One last argument I have over this is... Have you guys actually noticed how many MD's don't match per specialty?

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2016.pdf

-Pg. 12 shows that, for example Anesthesiology, there were 1,108 U.S. MD Senior applicants, yet only 774 of them matched! (774/1108 = 69.9% match rate)
- Let's take a look at Radiology.... you know, one of those specialties that going to an MD school opens more doors for you: 560 U.S. MD applicants, only 93 of them matched (there were 151 available spaces) so 93/560= 16.6% match rate, and again this is for U.S. MD SENIORS!!!! and overall they took up 61.5% of the available slots even though there were much more U.S MD applicants than spots available.

Fun Fact: Out of the remaining 58 radiology spaces, DO's got 26 of them!! And seeing how there are about 1/4 DO graduates per year to MD graduates, and that DO's ALSO have their own Radiology residencies.... am I going crazy here? I must be missing something. 😛

@AnatomyGrey12 @Goro @Scrubs101

Hmm interesting. After completing a pre-lim year are applicants allowed to apply for both PGY-1 & PGY 2? At the bottom of page 13 the first asterisk shows 2088 applicants matched both PGY 1&2 positions, 1683 US seniors.

Edit: dumb question, but my guess is most PGY-1 positions in derm go to those who have completed a transitional year. But i have no clue, just my guess from the data.

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[libertyyne]

You are wrong..so, please, just stop. We are talking about a VERY SPECIFIC school being compared to two SPECIFIC MD schools where in this case the DO school is the superior school. PDs are very well educated and do not just look at the MD or DO credentials. They compare the schools of each applicsnt, their reputation, how successful they have been in the past, and most importantly the students success in school, boards, shelf exams, rotations, and interviewing skills. MD>DO may be true in many areas, but I assure you THIS is the exception. We aren't comparing Harvard to Liberty. We are comparing MSUCOM to an unproven school and an unworthy school.

@femmegoblue why do you dislike WSU?

Why is it considered unworthy?
What are some objective reasons people are hating on Wayne?

 

[MADD!!!]

Need more chill man.

Aren't you still in undergrad as well?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using SDN mobile

It goes both ways.... I don't like it when people just tell me I don't know anything because I'm a pre-med. I'd much rather they show me reasons as to why I'm wrong.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

See Table 14. Percent unmatched for US.

It goes both ways.... I don't like it when people just tell me I don't know anything because I'm a pre-med. I'd much rather they show me reasons as to why I'm wrong.

You're not wrong because you are pre-med, you're wrong because you are wrong. Start with the suggestion above.

 

[MADD!!!]

You're not wrong because you are pre-med, you're wrong because you are wrong. Start with the suggestion above.

I see that this chart only refers to U.S. MD's who applied to ONLY that specialty choice. But this Chart is only meant to show just that.... for example, if you combine Derm spots for PGY1 and PGY 2, there are 420 positions. (21 PGY1 and 399 PGY2). If you look at Chart 14, it shows that 79 U.S. MD's matched and 18 didn't.... what about the rest of the positions. BECAUSE this chart only shows a SUBSET of USMD applicants who got their first pick.

Don't try and extrapolate this data as implying that out of ALL U.S. MD's applying for each of those categories, only that few didn't match. It's a subsection for those who chose those specialty matches as their only choice didn't match.

 

[DrBowtie]

I see that this chart only refers to U.S. MD's who applied to ONLY that specialty choice. But this Chart is only meant to show just that.... for example, if you combine Derm spots for PGY1 and PGY 2, there are 420 positions. (21 PGY1 and 399 PGY2). If you look at Chart 14, it shows that 79 U.S. MD's matched and 18 didn't.... what about the rest of the positions. BECAUSE this chart only shows a SUBSET of USMD applicants who got their first pick.

Don't try and extrapolate this data as implying that out of ALL U.S. MD's applying for each of those categories, only that few didn't match. It's a subsection for those who chose those specialty matches as their only choice didn't match.

The IA column refers to DOs, IMGs etc.

Look here's the rub. An applicant means you submitted an app to that specialty. For things with advanced and categorical you get double counted as an applicant if you apply to both types of programs, but obviously you can only match to one or the other. Your match rate calculation was way off.

If you rank more than one specialty you can't get counted in two buckets. Hence why table 14 is the best representation of what you are trying to show. Problem is people ranking a prelim med program at the bottom of their main list keeps them out of the calculation.

 

[MADD!!!]

The IA column refers to DOs, IMGs etc.

Look here's the rub. An applicant means you submitted an app to that specialty. For things with advanced and categorical you get double counted as an applicant if you apply to both types of programs, but obviously you can only match to one or the other. Your match rate calculation was way off.

If you rank more than one specialty you can't get counted in two buckets.

Yea that was my one concern of my data.... that when it says applicants how many of them got counted twice or not. The NRMP is pretty confusing to interpret as a whole too, that's why I like to get in discussions like this to find where my pockets are in interpreting them.

I would follow up more on this but it'll get too crazy, haha. This was the type of response I was looking for 🙂

 

[DrBowtie]

Yea that was my one concern of my data.... that when it says applicants how many of them got counted twice or not. The NRMP is pretty confusing to interpret as a whole too, that's why I like to get in discussions like this to find where my pockets are in interpreting them.

I would follow up more on this but it'll get too crazy, haha. This was the type of response I was looking for 🙂

Like I said, this stuff is not just about the data and any conclusion requires intricate knowledge of the system and applicant strategy like for example who should rank a prelim program at the bottom of their list. That type of thing isn't even on your radar but can affect the data. It's not just ratios and percents.

 

[MADD!!!]

Like I said, this stuff is not just about the data and any conclusion requires intricate knowledge of the system and applicant strategy like for example who should rank a prelim program at the bottom of their list. That type of thing isn't even on your radar but can affect the data. It's not just ratios and percents.

Sorry for being harsh in my earlier post

 

[MADD!!!]

@DrBowtie can you PM me plzz, I'm trying to PM you but it doesn't let me since your account is super private.

 

[libertyyne]

Can someone for the love of all that is holy give me some objective reasons on why attending Wayne state would be worse than msucom? All I have gotten so far is a vague : Administration is terrible. From an outsiders perspective it seems like they are cleaning house and the dean is being transparent. Thanks.

 

[femmegoblue]

Can someone for the love of all that is holy give me some objective reasons on why attending Wayne state would be worse than msucom? All I have gotten so far is a vague : Administration is terrible. From an outsiders perspective it seems like they are cleaning house and the dean is being transparent. Thanks.

I think for a lot of people the administrative thing is a big deal! And you are right, they are cleaning house so maybe stuff is getting better.

 

[femmegoblue]

Can someone for the love of all that is holy give me some objective reasons on why attending Wayne state would be worse than msucom? All I have gotten so far is a vague : Administration is terrible. From an outsiders perspective it seems like they are cleaning house and the dean is being transparent. Thanks.

Also, maybe you could make your own thread for that? I am sick of getting notification's for all of y'alls tangents.

 

[libertyyne]

I think for a lot of people the administrative thing is a big deal! And you are right, they are cleaning house so maybe stuff is getting better.

I guess what I meant was, what is toxic from the administrative side? I thought med school for the most part was study in your underwear, take the tests,do your rotations which are very similar for msusom and Wayne. MD schools traditionally match better nationwide. So I am still trying to figure out why administration would matter. Med school for the most part seems like an individual effort.

 

[libertyyne]

Also, maybe you could make your own thread for that? I am sick of getting notification's for all of y'alls tangents.

This is super pertinent for the question. Wayne vs msusom. If administration is your concern ,how does administration matter?

 

[femmegoblue]

This is super pertinent for the question. Wayne vs msusom. If administration is your concern ,how does administration matter?

To me, administration means the higher ups taking care of their students: mandatory advising appointments once per semester, direct people to go to with any concerns/will get fixed in a timely manner, mental health options for students, stuff that just flows easily and seamlessly when being placed for rotations, everything like that. This stuff matters to me. Some people wanna get in, do their work and leave. Or do everything at home from their undies. I just want a smaller atmosphere where it seems like admin cares about the well-being of their students. Someone at Wayne literally told my friend at second look day "we have a waitlist full of students so if you don't like how it is here, don't come". To some people small things like this don't matter.

Also I haven't been admitted to Wayne and you have, so maybe you have more info about support provided to students than I do.

 

[femmegoblue]

I guess what I meant was, what is toxic from the administrative side? I thought med school for the most part was study in your underwear, take the tests,do your rotations which are very similar for msusom and Wayne. MD schools traditionally match better nationwide. So I am still trying to figure out why administration would matter. Med school for the most part seems like an individual effort.

I never used the word toxic. The things I have cited above are the things I have seen/heard about Wayne. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[D2S450]

I think this is one of those "ask six people get seven different answers" topics, especially on SDN. If I get into CMED or WSU, I'll worry about it then. Right now I am happy to have a baller acceptance and am gonna take a nap.

Hey, so ive posted on probably too many of these things, but I am planning on going to a DO school over an MD for various reasons. Also as ive said ad nauseam, my siblings have gotten into ACGME residencies in fields that "DOs are not at all competitive for" and never once did it "limit their potential". Neither was the top of their class. Admin and education are important factors. So is your fit with the program. Either way, im sure youll be a great physician and congrats on your acceptance.

 

[libertyyne]

To me, administration means the higher ups taking care of their students: mandatory advising appointments once per semester, direct people to go to with any concerns/will get fixed in a timely manner, mental health options for students, stuff that just flows easily and seamlessly when being placed for rotations, everything like that. This stuff matters to me. Some people wanna get in, do their work and leave. Or do everything at home from their undies. I just want a smaller atmosphere where it seems like admin cares about the well-being of their students. Someone at Wayne literally told my friend at second look day "we have a waitlist full of students so if you don't like how it is here, don't come". To some people small things like this don't matter.

Also I haven't been admitted to Wayne and you have, so maybe you have more info about support provided to students than I do.

So correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't msusom have a larger class size then Wayne?
Perhaps you have experience with the unresponsiveness of administration people seemed nice enough on the interview and med students seemed genuinely happy to be there. It seemed like the med students also took care of each other and the admin just changed the library based on requests from the students. They also have mentor assignment in year one so you have one person to work with throughout school. The class tests are structured like boards. That one interaction with your friend may be an outlier or representative of Wayne , I have no idea,but it is true. Med schools do have long lists of qualified applicants so no sweat off of any schools back if an applicant doesn't choose their school.
You go to the bms program, you obviously have a better idea of dysfunction and you went to msu so you may have some insights.

 

[femmegoblue]

So correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't msusom have a larger class size then Wayne?
Perhaps you have experience with the unresponsiveness of administration people seemed nice enough on the interview and med students seemed genuinely happy to be there. It seemed like the med students also took care of each other and the admin just changed the library based on requests from the students. They also have me for assignment in year one so you have one person to work with throughout school. The class tests are structured like boards. That one interaction with your friend may be an outlier or representative of Wayne , I have no idea,but it is true. Med schools do have long lists of qualified applicants so no sweat off of any schools back if an applicant doesn't choose their school.
You go to the bms program, you obviously have a better idea of dysfunction and you went to msu so you may have some insights.

Pretty sure Wayne has 290 and is increasing this year. MSUCOM has 200 at EL, and very small class sizes of 50 at the other two sites. Maybe it's my age or the fact I went to a giant undergrad where no one gave two ****s about students (not MSU), but it's just something I personally will consider when choosing a medical school.

 

[libertyyne]

Pretty sure Wayne has 290 and is increasing this year. MSUCOM has 200 at EL, and very small class sizes of 50 at the other two sites. Maybe it's my age or the fact I went to a giant undergrad where no one gave two ****s about students (not MSU), but it's just something I personally will consider when choosing a medical school.

I don't get it. But good luck. There are plenty of DO obgyns in Michigan. I don't see it being an issue getting that residency through either route if you want to stay in MI.
This is also a preosteo board so there may be some bias, but for your purposes it really shouldn't matter.

 

[femmegoblue]

I don't get it. But good luck. There are plenty of DO obgyns in Michigan. I don't see it being an issue getting that residency through either route if you want to stay in MI.
This is also a preosteo board so there may be some bias, but for your purposes it really shouldn't matter.

To be clear, in my original question I never bashed WSU, it's a great school. Good luck to you too, we both deserve it!

 

[femmegoblue]

If anyone cares, I actually did end up getting an II at CMED. So this has the potential to become a real decision I have to make 😱

 

[Scrubs101]

If anyone cares, I actually did end up getting an II at CMED. So this has the potential to become a real decision I have to make 😱

Let us know what you think of it!! Best of luck!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Marrowist]

Let's just let this thread die a peaceful death.

 

[femmegoblue]

I think almost everyone who has applied to MSUCOM waiting for an II, waitlisted, or rejected is getting SUPER annoyed about helping poor femmegoblue to decided whether to attend her local in-state MD or DO school.

 

[femmegoblue]

Just saying.... remember where you were 4 months ago or a year ago at this time and reading this from someone else. Plus you've got all the info you need to make your decision at this point.

 

[Pablo94]

I think people give Wayne too much credit. It does the job, I guess, but at what cost? It's a miserable place to be.

Why is it miserable?

 

[femmegoblue]

Why is it miserable?

I'm not reopening this thread.

 

[JB50]

I'm not reopening this thread.

Femme have you decided 100% on MSUCOM? I'll let the thread die once we know.

Plz respond

 

[libertyyne]

Femme have you decided 100% on MSUCOM? I'll let the thread die once we know.

Plz respond

If nrmp data has taught us anything. In landing competitive ACGME residencies MD>>>>DO. Heck some residency directors would rather take a US-IMG over the DO.

 

[JB50]

If nrmp data has taught us anything. In landing competitive ACGME residencies MD>>>>DO. Heck some residency directors would rather take a US-IMG over the DO.

stfu you're not femme

 

[libertyyne]

stfu you're not femme

 

[JB50]

ily

 

[femmegoblue]

Yes I know this. I got put on hold at central so by default I will go to MSUCOM unless something changes homies

If nrmp data has taught us anything. In landing competitive ACGME residencies MD>>>>DO. Heck some residency directors would rather take a US-IMG over the DO.

 

[AlteredScale]

Just a reminder to please keep this thread on topic and professional. Thanks.

 

[JB50]

Just a reminder to please keep this thread on topic and professional. Thanks.

I don't think @libertyyne takes me seriously lol so the stfu wasn't serious... but I get it👍

 

[Everglide]

Fwiw from a COM grad here, it really depends on what you want to do after grad. If you want gun fellowships I would go MD hands down. I would also take cost in account as MSUmis absurdly expensive. If you think the 1000 is a lot, you can look forward to the average yearly interest alone of about 25k post grad.

Despite Wayne's admin issues, "getting Wayned" exist for a reason, the education is solid and cheaper last I checked with leaving MD fellowships open

 

[femmegoblue]

Fwiw from a COM grad here, it really depends on what you want to do after grad. If you want gun fellowships I would go MD hands down. I would also take cost in account as MSUmis absurdly expensive. If you think the 1000 is a lot, you can look forward to the average yearly interest alone of about 25k post grad.

Despite Wayne's admin issues, "getting Wayned" exist for a reason, the education is solid and cheaper last I checked with leaving MD fellowships open

Yes I am beginning to realize that by going DO I will likely kiss my inkling for MFM or RE goodbye.

What is MIS? I've not heard that acronym.

 

[Everglide]

Yes I am beginning to realize that by going DO I will likely kiss my inkling for MFM or RE goodbye.

What is MIS? I've not heard that acronym.

Sorry auto correct. Meant com

If there are no osteo mfm or endo then that seems unlikely. I don't know much beyond that as im not gyn. I think central has their stuff together now btw

 

[femmegoblue]

Sorry auto correct. Meant com

If there are no osteo mfm or endo then that seems unlikely. I don't know much beyond that as im not gyn. I think central has their stuff together now btw

Yes but I didn't get in! Haha

MSUCOM seems comparable to every other Michigan medical school so cost isn't much of a concern.

 

[libertyyne]

Yes but I didn't get in! Haha

Dont loose hope! There is still 7 Months left!

 

[FBurnaby]

I'm audibly laughing at anyone who thinks the central michigan is a better school than MSUCOM.

OP, get your prestigious MD in mount pleasant, study hard and keep all the doors open, And if all goes well match into one of MSUCOM's four OBGYN residencies. That CMU degree will make you stand out as well when applying to MSUCOM's MFM fellowship.