Muslims applying to DO

[abcdzain]

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Salaams guys i was wondering if there are any other Muslims attending DO schools in the next school year.

Personally I will be attending LECOM-Erie, I was just curious to know the Muslim population and or how easy it is to attend Juma (friday prayers) and what not in medical school

 

[Bacchus]

I'm not Muslim so I am not familiar with the prayer schedule or length it takes to pray. However, unless you're going to be skipping classes, I'd assume that you're going to have some difficulty praying during certain times. I'm pretty sure that a lot of schools have class M-F during the day so you might find some interferences.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Salaams guys i was wondering if there are any other Muslims attending DO schools in the next school year.

Personally I will be attending LECOM-Erie, I was just curious to know the Muslim population and or how easy it is to attend Juma (friday prayers) and what not in medical school

Many med students do not ever go to class the first 2 years and choose to study from home.

While I cant tell you how LECOM-Erie is going to be, most schools make it pretty easy to study from home. So unless there is some direct patient contact that is required on fridays, i doubt you should have problems attending Jum'ah .

Now 3rd year is going to get tricky. Some rotations involve rounding until 1 or even 2pm while others involve rounding quickly and then heading to the OR until 6. Because it is for religious reasons you probably wont have too many problems but I imagine you will run into some conflicts where it will be impossible to attend once in a while.

 

[engineeredout]

Many med students do not ever go to class the first 2 years and choose to study from home.

While I cant tell you how LECOM-Erie is going to be, most schools make it pretty easy to study from home. So unless there is some direct patient contact that is required on fridays, i doubt you should have problems attending Jum'ah .

Now 3rd year is going to get tricky. Some rotations involve rounding until 1 or even 2pm while others involve rounding quickly and then heading to the OR until 6. Because it is for religious reasons you probably wont have too many problems but I imagine you will run into some conflicts where it will be impossible to attend once in a while.

Attendance at lectures is mandatory at LECOM-E.

OP: what pathway are you in? Obviously if it was ISP you'd have a much easier time working around your schedual.

 

[Mohammed1989]

Salaams guys i was wondering if there are any other Muslims attending DO schools in the next school year.

Personally I will be attending LECOM-Erie, I was just curious to know the Muslim population and or how easy it is to attend Juma (friday prayers) and what not in medical school

Salaam bro,

Well I am still a pre-med student and won't be applying for another 2 years. What you can do is check if prayer is offered in your school. Since I know Touro in NY has fridays off after 12 because it is a Jewish School. I am pretty sure that there is a club or something that handles this. Why don't you contact the school and ask them about it, they usually are aware of this problem and usually help out. If not why ask the school to start one and you can lead it! That would show good leadership skills. 😀

Good luck let me know how it turns out.

 

[Mohammed1989]

Many med students do not ever go to class the first 2 years and choose to study from home.

While I cant tell you how LECOM-Erie is going to be, most schools make it pretty easy to study from home. So unless there is some direct patient contact that is required on fridays, i doubt you should have problems attending Jum'ah .

Now 3rd year is going to get tricky. Some rotations involve rounding until 1 or even 2pm while others involve rounding quickly and then heading to the OR until 6. Because it is for religious reasons you probably wont have too many problems but I imagine you will run into some conflicts where it will be impossible to attend once in a while.

During his 3rd year it might be more easier. For praying atleast because most of the hospitals out there have jum'ah prayer. When I start volunteering I found out, I was amazed and just stunned. I soon found out that most of the hospitals actually do hold jum'ah prayers. I myself have taken part of this, so I guess I was able to write down something else besides volunteering with medicine. I am volunteering to help my fellow brothers and sisters.

I doubt that all hospitals will have it but it won't hurt to check. Man I can't wait to go to med school. 😀

 

[FlaMedic]

At my school there was a big Muslim hubub a year or two ago.

Muslim female student refused to participate in OMM labs due to having to wear t-shirt and shorts in front of males or something...

She made a big fuss and threatened to sue. School kicked her out anyway. I'm not sure what happened to her but it sure did generate a hell of a lot of controversy.

 

[Mohammed1989]

At my school there was a big Muslim hubub a year or two ago.

Muslim female student refused to participate in OMM labs due to having to wear t-shirt and shorts in front of males or something...

She made a big fuss and threatened to sue. School kicked her out anyway. I'm not sure what happened to her but it sure did generate a hell of a lot of controversy.

Honestly I don't think she was that bright because she threatened to sue. I think they show videos and tell you how you are going to the OMM labs. Well atleast when I went for open houses they did. I highly doubt if she went to court she would have lost. Maybe if it was a dissection lab then she would have a case but besides that I don't think so.

Hope she has more fun at another school or even a md school

 

[FlaMedic]

Honestly I don't think she was that bright because she threatened to sue. I think they show videos and tell you how you are going to the OMM labs. Well atleast when I went for open houses they did. I highly doubt if she went to court she would have lost. Maybe if it was a dissection lab then she would have a case but besides that I don't think so.

Hope she has more fun at another school or even a md school

No, she most certainly would have lost. You can't just dictate the school's curriculum to suit your beliefs.

I remember when I was a transport paramedic... a Muslim woman w/ RLQ abd. pn. @ 10/10 pale and diaphoretic w/ vag. bleeding. Her husband refused to allow her to be examined by a male ER doc who was the only one on.

They called us to transport the couple 40 miles to a facility that had a female attending. We got there just in time to see the woman doc sign out her shift to a male doc. They again refused and demanded to be returned in the ambulance to the original hospital. They signed out AMA and she died that night of ruptured ectopic...

That case infuriated me. You could tell she just wanted to be examined and helped w/ her misery but husband would have none of it and wouldn't even let her talk to me.

The family of course sued the hospital, and lost. Hope it was worth it, buddy.

 

[Mohammed1989]

No, she most certainly would have lost. You can't just dictate the school's curriculum to suit your beliefs.

I remember when I was a transport paramedic... a Muslim woman w/ RLQ abd. pn. @ 10/10 pale and diaphoretic w/ vag. bleeding. Her husband refused to allow her to be examined by a male ER doc who was the only one on.

They called us to transport the couple 40 miles to a facility that had a female attending. We got there just in time to see the woman doc sign out her shift to a male doc. They again refused and demanded to be returned in the ambulance to the original hospital. They signed out AMA and she died that night of ruptured ectopic...

That case infuriated me. You could tell she just wanted to be examined and helped w/ her misery but husband would have none of it and wouldn't even let her talk to me.

The family of course sued the hospital, and lost. Hope it was worth it, buddy.

Wow dude that must have been hard to witness. I mean I'm muslim too but if my mom was in that case, I wouldn't mind a male doctor seeing her. I mean if there is a female doctor there or on call it would be nice but if not it's okay.

If med school does fit our personal needs, well I want a cup of coffee when I arrive with 2 spoons of sugar, and a massage from a hot chick when I leave. 🙂

 

[FlaMedic]

Wow dude that must have been hard to witness. I mean I'm muslim too but if my mom was in that case, I wouldn't mind a male doctor seeing her. I mean if there is a female doctor there or on call it would be nice but if not it's okay.

If med school does fit our personal needs, well I want a cup of coffee when I arrive with 2 spoons of sugar, and a massage from a hot chick when I leave. 🙂

Yeah, it sucked. I hate seeing people suffer. I think maybe it was mostly due to him being a jerk as opposed to any religious preference.

 

[Mohammed1989]

Yeah, it sucked. I hate seeing people suffer. I think maybe it was mostly due to him being a jerk as opposed to any religious preference.

Yeah I had a couple of cases where the patient came into the ER and just died. I'M A VOLUNTEER!!!!! I was like WTF???????? Never in my life have I seen death occur but I guess as a doctor you will get to see it from time to time. It's part of the job 🙁

 

[Ibn Rushd]

I'm a Muslim applying to DO! 🙂

About the case FlaMedic mentioned, my understanding is that in severe life-threatening medical emergencies, the rules of gender interaction can be overlooked. In other words, the saving of a life takes precedence over committing what would normally be unlawful deeds. This is a basic understanding of Islamic law. I can elaborate if anyone likes.

 

[abcdzain]

Attendance at lectures is mandatory at LECOM-E.

OP: what pathway are you in? Obviously if it was ISP you'd have a much easier time working around your schedual.

Hey i am in LDP and i know its mandatory. i dont ind missing Jumah for class, but it sucks if it would be all the time. I can definitely see myself missing prayer if its impossible to adapt but it would be nice to make it from time to time

any moslems who already been to ERIE?

 

[engineeredout]

No, she most certainly would have lost. You can't just dictate the school's curriculum to suit your beliefs.

I remember when I was a transport paramedic... a Muslim woman w/ RLQ abd. pn. @ 10/10 pale and diaphoretic w/ vag. bleeding. Her husband refused to allow her to be examined by a male ER doc who was the only one on.

They called us to transport the couple 40 miles to a facility that had a female attending. We got there just in time to see the woman doc sign out her shift to a male doc. They again refused and demanded to be returned in the ambulance to the original hospital. They signed out AMA and she died that night of ruptured ectopic...

That case infuriated me. You could tell she just wanted to be examined and helped w/ her misery but husband would have none of it and wouldn't even let her talk to me.

The family of course sued the hospital, and lost. Hope it was worth it, buddy.

Man stories like that piss me off about religion. Its not just the Muslims either. Go take a look at Pope Benedict and the Vatican. He specifically spoke out not long ago about giving condoms in Africa. They believe that condoms are not the way to stop the spread of AIDS, but instead it should be fidelity in marriage 🙄 and abstinance 🙄.

Don't even get me started on the south american bishop who wouldn't allow an 11 year old rape victim (from her uncle) to have an abortion.

 

[binko]

Why couldn't they let her wear a longer-sleeved shirt and like yoga pants or something for OMM lab, and make sure she was assigned a female partner? It's not like the patient has to strip to their skivvies when a DO does OMM on them anyway.

 

[Mohammed1989]

Why couldn't they let her wear a longer-sleeved shirt and like yoga pants or something for OMM lab, and make sure she was assigned a female partner? It's not like the patient has to strip to their skivvies when a DO does OMM on them anyway.

That actually is a good idea. I got no clue if she tried though, I wonder if she transferred to another med school.

 

[binko]

That actually is a good idea. I got no clue if she tried though, I wonder if she transferred to another med school.

I would think she would have tried? If not, I'm not sure how she got to med school in the first place.

It seems like it shouldn't be an issue. My sister used to play on a soccer team with a Muslim girl who had her own, more modest version of the team uniform, and a sport hijaab in team colors.

 

[FutureInternist]

Why couldn't they let her wear a longer-sleeved shirt and like yoga pants or something for OMM lab, and make sure she was assigned a female partner? It's not like the patient has to strip to their skivvies when a DO does OMM on them anyway.

That's what the Muslim girls at Touro-NV did, with full support of the faculty.

 

[Eudjinn]

Why couldn't they let her wear a longer-sleeved shirt and like yoga pants or something for OMM lab, and make sure she was assigned a female partner? It's not like the patient has to strip to their skivvies when a DO does OMM on them anyway.

The topic of religion and medicine has come up in several issues at my school this year as well, but I will only address the OMM aspect of it...

I have not experienced this personally, but I have had male friends tell me how they were paired up with muslim females who refused to allow them to do any techniques/diagnosis or practice. They either asked to switch partners (the faculty usually was OK with this) or just did not participate in the lab.

I respect everyone's right to have their beliefs, but I have to disagree with this type of behavior. If you are going into a profession that requires that you be comfortable touching both male and female patients, you have to practice and in turn allow your colleagues to practice for the sake of education. It is a disservice to future patients if their physician did not go through the standard desensitization (of feeling shy and or embarrassed about touching or being touched) process.

If religion is important to someone to this extent (and there is nothing wrong with this), there are plenty of other careers that can be pursued which will not require the types of interactions required in medical school.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are there not even provisions in religion that acknowledge that it is acceptable to "break the rules" so long as it is in the name of helping people? I know that Jewish volunteer ambulances work on Shabbos, even though it is against religious law, because Judaism allows it as long as it is performing "mitzvah" or "good deeds."

One of our best clinical professors was fired this year because there were religious individuals were offended (by a CD cover shown on the powerpoint that could be seen on www.amazon.com) and complained to the Dean.

My take home point: medicine is a special field that requires active participation which will not always be in line with religion or comfort. If you cannot handle (or your religion or self-consciousness does not allow it) the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

 

[binko]

My take home point: medicine is a special field that requires active participation which will not always be in line with religion or comfort. If you cannot handle (or your religion or self-consciousness does not allow it) the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

But orthodox Jews wouldn't go to OMM (or any other) class on the sabbath, I'm certain.

Also, who says she has to be required to touch male patients? There is such a field as OB/GYN, as well as many parts of the world where women would only be seen by a female doctor, even for non-gyno issues. If she's from one of those areas and plans to return, then she would probably have an easy time avoiding male patients by having a practice that exclusively serves females.

Being forced to violate your religious beliefs for no good reason is not the same as "pushing yourself out of your comfort zone".

 

[DO2Be2013]

Being forced to violate your religious beliefs for no good reason is not the same as "pushing yourself out of your comfort zone".

I don't think anyone would disagree that people shouldn't be "forced to violate their religious beilefs for no good reason" but since when do we force individuals to attend osteopathic medical schools in the first place? You know the rules when you apply. The technical standards form I had to sign before matriculating very clearly stated what would be expected of me (and my dress) in OMM lab. Had I any objections to participating in OMM, I was free to turn down their offer of acceptance and seek a medical education at another (allopathic) institution or even in another country.

 

[binko]

I don't think anyone would disagree that people shouldn't be "forced to violate their religious beilefs for no good reason" but since when do we force individuals to attend osteopathic medical schools in the first place? You know the rules when you apply. The technical standards form I had to sign before matriculating very clearly stated what would be expected of me (and my dress) in OMM lab. Had I any objections to participating in OMM, I was free to turn down their offer of acceptance and seek a medical education at another (allopathic) institution or even in another country.

If you had a problem with the dress code, are you seriously telling us you'd be okay going to another career or another country rather than expecting some reasonable level of leniency?

 

[Eudjinn]

But orthodox Jews wouldn't go to OMM (or any other) class on the sabbath, I'm certain.

Also, who says she has to be required to touch male patients? There is such a field as OB/GYN, as well as many parts of the world where women would only be seen by a female doctor, even for non-gyno issues. If she's from one of those areas and plans to return, then she would probably have an easy time avoiding male patients by having a practice that exclusively serves females.

Being forced to violate your religious beliefs for no good reason is not the same as "pushing yourself out of your comfort zone".

I understand your point. My opinion is (and take it as just that, an opinion) that I consider doing volunteer EMS work and going to a class that is teaching you to become a physician as more or less the same thing. Why should it be acceptable, under Judaism or any religion for that matter, to do EMS work on sabbath to save a life, and unacceptable to go to a class that is teaching you to do something that will save lives in the future?

Regarding bolded statement: we are discussing an American medical education. If said religious students want to practice in their home countries where they can avoid the things we mentioned, they should consider obtaining their medical education there as well, no? By doing so, their medical education would correspond directly with their religious beliefs and everyone would be happy. American medical schools should be understanding about certain religious issues (and I've found that they are very understanding), but we cannot expect them to completely tailor their education to said people because the majority of students will not be limiting their practice to one sex and the majority will also be practicing here in the U.S.

Regarding "no good reason": first off, I do not promote gross "violation of religious beliefs" just for any reason. As I've said everyone is entitled to their beliefs. However, do you really consider education for the sake of being a competent physician in the future "no good reason"?

 

[Eudjinn]

If you had a problem with the dress code, are you seriously telling us you'd be okay going to another career or another country rather than expecting some reasonable level of leniency?

Reasonable leniency is always employed by the administration. It is when unreasonable leniency is demanded that the problems arise. Unreasonable: not participating in something that is designed to make you a competent physician, i.e. not participating in anatomy dissection, not participating in clinical practice and OMM.

As mentioned, the terms and conditions as well as the technical standards of matriculation and completion are never hidden and are clearly stated and signed by the individuals attending the institution. This is how the system works. Some flexibility is allowed, but we cannot agree to the technical standards and then turn around a few months later and demand to play by our own rules under the cover of religion.

 

[DO2Be2013]

If you had a problem with the dress code, are you seriously telling us you'd be okay going to another career or another country rather than expecting some reasonable level of leniency?

Honestly, yes. I do have a problem with the dress code, by the way; it gives me a tremendous deal of anxiety to think about being half-naked and exposed in front of my entire medical school class and professors. Frankly I suspect that if they are able to make a concession to Muslim students that they can wear tight shirts and yoga pants then they should be able to make that concession to all women (and men too, I guess) and that would be far preferable to me.

However, I do not expect an institution to which I am voluntarily applying to change their rules in order to accomodate me and my preferences, religious or otherwise. I am going to suck it up and go through with it, and realize that probably at least 50% of the class around me is just as self-conscious and uncomfortable.

The last thing I would do is register my objections silently while signing this form (agreeing to the standards) and matriculating, then wait until I am in a position of needing to follow through with those regulations to object and expect accomodations. I would ask for those accomodations before enrolling and if they could not be met, I would indeed look elsewhere for my education. No one is forcing me to go there.

As a matter of fact, I had a problem with LECOM's ridiculous dress code (among other restrictive policies) and that played a huge role in my decision to turn down my acceptance there in favor of PCOM. I never would have enrolled at LECOM knowing their expectations up front and then expected some kind of special treatment later.

 

[engineeredout]

I understand your point. My opinion is (and take it as just that, an opinion) that I consider doing volunteer EMS work and going to a class that is teaching you to become a physician as more or less the same thing. Why should it be acceptable, under Judaism or any religion for that matter, to do EMS work on sabbath to save a life, and unacceptable to go to a class that is teaching you to do something that will save lives in the future?

Regarding bolded statement: we are discussing an American medical education. If said religious students want to practice in their home countries where they can avoid the things we mentioned, they should consider obtaining their medical education there as well, no? By doing so, their medical education would correspond directly with their religious beliefs and everyone would be happy. American medical schools should be understanding about certain religious issues (and I've found that they are very understanding), but we cannot expect them to completely tailor their education to said people because the majority of students will not be limiting their practice to one sex and the majority will also be practicing here in the U.S.

Regarding "no good reason": first off, I do not promote gross "violation of religious beliefs" just for any reason. As I've said everyone is entitled to their beliefs. However, do you really consider education for the sake of being a competent physician in the future "no good reason"?

👍 Excellent post.

 

[FlaMedic]

Also, who says she has to be required to touch male patients?

This is by far the most absurd, idiotic thing I have ever read on SDN.

Are you kidding me?

Attending to 3rd year student: Please go examine the pt. in room 12 and bring me your plan.

Student: Uh, no I don't touch male patients, sorry.

Attending to 3rd year student: Oh really? That's nice. Please excuse yourself from the service and leave the hospital. Have a nice day and I'll be contacting your clinical director to make sure you never return.

 

[FutureInternist]

I posted something like this a while ago about someone wanting to wear a hijab in the OR
Going to medical school involves many things that are against Islam

1. Paying interest on money
2. Cutting up dead bodies
3. Free mixing of both sexes
4. Looking at partially/totally nude pics of people
5. Missing some of the 5 daily prayers because you are in class/lab
   

It's nice to be able to pick & choose what you want to follow, but I think that one should only do that when it does not put anyone else out (refusing to let male students examine you is NOT OK....unless there is a "replacement" female around)

 

[engineeredout]

If you had a problem with the dress code, are you seriously telling us you'd be okay going to another career or another country rather than expecting some reasonable level of leniency?

Key word. Able to leave lecture to pray, reasonable. Avoiding practicing on half the world population to not risk offending God, not so reasonable.

 

[Anita817]

This is by far the most absurd, idiotic thing I have ever read on SDN.

Are you kidding me?

Attending to 3rd year student: Please go examine the pt. in room 12 and bring me your plan.

Student: Uh, no I don't touch male patients, sorry.

Attending to 3rd year student: Oh really? That's nice. Please excuse yourself from the service and leave the hospital. Have a nice day and I'll be contacting your clinical director to make sure you never return.

I was thinking the same thing when I first read that line--sure you can specialize in a field for women, or in a country where you will only be allowed to see women, but what happens before then? You gotta get through medical school first, and you gotta do more than just a month or so in OB/GYN to do that!

 

[iluvmed&ba6eekh]

I just want to point out that many Muslims have different schools of thought about different issues. Just because, in the unfortunate case mentioned above, a man refused to have a male physician see his wife doesn't mean all Muslims take it that far.

The more common school of thought is that we must minimize contact between the two sexes, HOWEVER, when it comes to medical situations, exceptions can be made. It is absolutely unneccessary to have anybody's health put in danger just because of the whole gender thing. I'm not going to refuse to see a male patient in the future just because I'm Muslim.

But in OMM lab, the situation isn't as urgent, which is why if it can be arranged, we'd prefer to be paired up with a partner of the same gender. HOWEVER, we will still occasionally pair up with someone of the opposite gender, in order to be familiar with practicing OMM on patients of both genders, and to ensure that our medical training is in no way compromised.

The one case of the girl in WVSOM was an exception, and I'm sure that situation was much more complicated (correct me if I'm wrong, but she was already failing a couple classes, so she may have been pulling the religion card as some sort of excuse). There are plenty of Muslim females who go to DO schools, graduate, and practice medicine just like all other physicians, without any sort of trouble.

 

[FlaMedic]

I wonder how this would work if it was the other way around?

OB Resident: Examine 4 please...
Me: I... yeah about that, just wanted to let you know that I don't examine diseased vaginas because it makes me uncomfortable.
OB Resident: Thats cool. Oh hey, can you shoot me an email about this so I can put a note next to why I failed you for the rotation?
Me: But wait...my beliefs, religion, blah blah.
OB Resident: Can you tell your classmate to Examine 4 please? Have a good one...

 

[binko]

Regarding "no good reason": first off, I do not promote gross "violation of religious beliefs" just for any reason. As I've said everyone is entitled to their beliefs. However, do you really consider education for the sake of being a competent physician in the future "no good reason"?

No, but there is "no good reason" she can't participate in OMM lab with a female partner and wearing something modest enough.

 

[binko]

Key word. Able to leave lecture to pray, reasonable. Avoiding practicing on half the world population to not risk offending God, not so reasonable.

Being allowed to cover her body when in the presence of men would be reasonable in my book, and is less disruptive to the schedule than praying (which is of course also reasonable).

Also, I do think it is reasonable for a woman who wants to minimize physical contact with men to take that wish into account when deciding a specialty. I am not suggesting a Muslim woman attending medical school would be refusing to study male anatomy or to examine a male patient, but she might also be inclined not to specialize in urology, for example.

I really find the "Do things our way or get out" attitude in some of the posts irritating and bigoted.

 

[Eudjinn]

I just want to point out that many Muslims have different schools of thought about different issues. Just because, in the unfortunate case mentioned above, a man refused to have a male physician see his wife doesn't mean all Muslims take it that far.

The more common school of thought is that we must minimize contact between the two sexes, HOWEVER, when it comes to medical situations, exceptions can be made. It is absolutely unneccessary to have anybody's health put in danger just because of the whole gender thing. I'm not going to refuse to see a male patient in the future just because I'm Muslim.

But in OMM lab, the situation isn't as urgent, which is why if it can be arranged, we'd prefer to be paired up with a partner of the same gender. HOWEVER, we will still occasionally pair up with someone of the opposite gender, in order to be familiar with practicing OMM on patients of both genders, and to ensure that our medical training is in no way compromised.

The one case of the girl in WVSOM was an exception, and I'm sure that situation was much more complicated (correct me if I'm wrong, but she was already failing a couple classes, so she may have been pulling the religion card as some sort of excuse). There are plenty of Muslim females who go to DO schools, graduate, and practice medicine just like all other physicians, without any sort of trouble.

great post

 

[FlaMedic]

I really find the "Do things our way or get out" attitude in some of the posts irritating and bigoted.

Oh I'm sure not as irritating as her classmates find her demands for special treatment and extreme sense of entitlement.

 

[Eudjinn]

No, but there is "no good reason" she can't participate in OMM lab with a female partner and wearing something modest enough.

I'm not going to bash you because you are a pre-med and because I do not know to what extent you have experienced OMM. I will, however, politely say that there are quite a few diagnoses/techniques that require exposed back/vertebrae, legs, arms, neck and head. This is just how OMM lab is... the first lab everyone had to take their shirt off and let me tell you it was bloody nervewracking, but guess what, now everyone is comfortable enough to disrobe at the drop of a hat. This is an important because by putting oneself in the role of a patient (being examined by both a male and a female), a physician can better relate and be more empathetic toward future patients.

 

[Eudjinn]

Oh I'm sure not as irritating as her classmates find her demands for special treatment and extreme sense of entitlement.

Brings up a great point: individuals who seek this special treatment under the umbrella of religion do a pretty good job of alienating themselves from the rest of the class. So much for class unity and being united as colleagues. How would you feel if your OMM partner leaves you hanging like that and you are stuck without someone to practice with, not to mention it doesn't feel that good to be told "sorry I can't partner with you because of your gender," especially at such an adult/professional level. It can feel more insulting than you think.

Like I said, we lost an amazing professor because <5 people were offended at something he put up whereas >250 did not care. This is what happens when you cater to extreme situations... the majority will suffer.

 

[DO2Be2013]

Becoming a physician is a privilege and a choice, not a right. The sense of entitlement to special accomodations and exemptions irritates me. As does the suggestion that those who favor maintaining objective standards for technical participation in training are bigots.

 

[Eudjinn]

Becoming a physician is a privilege and a choice, not a right. The sense of entitlement to special accomodations and exemptions irritates me. As does the suggestion that those who favor maintaining objective standards for technical participation in training are bigots.

I'm very happy to see we have some very bright people entering the profession (true compliment, not sarcasm).👍

 

[FlaMedic]

Yeah, what they said.

 

[Dr Simplicity]

It is important to understand that Islam, like every other religion, is frequently misrepresented by individuals who truly do not know the teachings of their religion or are looking to use the name of religion for selfish motives.

From my understanding, for the sake of medical education and saving lives, Muslim men and women are allowed to examine patients of the opposite sex during their education and career. It is preferred that a woman be seen by a female doctor if that is her preference and a female doctor is available. A female is allowed to be seen by a male doctor especially if there are no female doctors and in any medical emergency.

In regards to OMM, Muslim female DOs and MDs are allowed to perform OMM on both male and female patients because it is part of their education and training. There are so many female Muslim doctors who are very successful physicians. I do hope that schools can accommodate those people who prefer to be manipulated on by someone of the same sex or who wish to dress modestly. This is an issue that should be discussed with the school prior to officially accepting the offer to go to the school.

It is extremely important for physicians to be culturally sensitive to these type of issues in a country where so many people have different backgrounds and beliefs.

 

[engineeredout]

My aunt told me a story about something that happened at work (hospital nurse). A nurse in training brought food to a man who was admitted. The man told her that he was incredibly insulted and felt as if he was being violated. He told her to leave his room and not come back.

This incident sent the nursing student to tears. Turns out the guy was Muslim, and on the tray was jello. Jello = gelatin = derived from pork collagen.

Now there are ways of handling a situation like that.

Correct way: I'm sorry, I can't eat that as it goes against my beliefs.

Incorrect way: GTFO.


Sware I'm not just trying to pick on muslims here.


Oh here we go on the story I was alluding to earlier:

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/03/11/brazil.rape.abortion/index.html#cnnSTCText

This doctor in Brazil, along with the mother, and the entire ****ing medical team, was excommunicated by the catholic church for performing an abortion on a nine year old girl, pregnant with twins, who was raped by her stepfather, and to top it all off, they didn't excommunicate the stepfather.

Archbishop Don Jose Cardoso Sobrinho of Recife excommunicated the doctor, the child's mother and the medical team involved in the procedure...

Meanwhile, a Vatican cleric told Italy's La Stampa newspaper that he supports the Brazilian archbishop's decision to excommunicate all involved in the abortion except for the child.

Terrible. IF that doesn't deserve a I don't know what does

 

[Ibn Rushd]

This incident sent the nursing student to tears. Turns out the guy was Muslim, and on the tray was jello. Jello = gelatin = derived from pork collagen.

Now there are ways of handling a situation like that.

Correct way: I'm sorry, I can't eat that as it goes against my beliefs.

Incorrect way: GTFO.

Believe it or not, the vast majority of Muslims would have handled that situation the correct way.

 

[Mohammed1989]

Believe it or not, the vast majority of Muslims would have handled that situation the correct way.

Agreed that guy must be a big meanie!

 

[MossPoh]

I think every religion has to make some concessions with their beliefs when it comes to certain things, especially a medical education. It is the unwavering ones that throw a fit when someone doesn't bend to their needs that give a bad name to the rest. The vast majority of people of every religion type can distinguish between situations and can bite the bullet and suffer through it. If you honestly believe that a higher power will condemn you in any fashion for the occasional thing you will have to do during your education then you shouldn't choose medicine. Medicine is a dirty profession. The education is dirty and the work is dirty. I HATE being touched. I hate it with a passion. I'm still going to go through OMM the same as everyone else. I don't exactly look forward to DREs and disimpacting people either, but I'm sure it is something I'm just going to have to suffer through. When you enter an osteopathic school you usually sign a piece of paper saying you will abide by their rules. If you have an issue with that then don't sign it. Nobody is forcing you to. Most reasonable people will follow their religion to the best of their ability. It may require to write a few mental IOUs to the powers that be, but you are generally doing something admirable to help people in the long-run. I want no part with any deity that frowns upon helping your neighbors personally.

Everyone has to overcome things they don't want to do or disagree with at some point of their life. The challenge is what makes you a better person. You just do the best that you can and know that in the future you will abide more strictly to the guidelines set by your religion or yourself.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

I'd find it hard to believe that a female Muslim doctor wouldn't have had to deal with disrobed men at some point in her medical education - heck, in most countries where Islam is the dominant religion wouldn't most of the doctors be men anyway?

I know there are many reasonable Muslims out there, so I'm assuming that the people we've discussed in this thread are either really extreme or really grumpy...but still.

Did the Muslim girl @ WVSOM request to dissect a female cadaver too?

What was she going to do as a doctor if she saw a man lying on the sidewalk unconscious with his shirt off? "Oh, it's a man so I can't help here..."?

 

[LaCasta]

I think maybe it was mostly due to him being a jerk as opposed to any religious preference.

Exactly. Islam actually states that in order to prevent permanent physical harm to a woman, it is completely acceptable for her to be examined by a male doctor. In fact, her husband is obligated to do whatever he has to do to prevent any physical damage to his wife.

A lot of times though, a man will just use religion to justify his aversion to any man seeing his wife undressed, regardless of the situation, while he really does not know much about the religous aspect.

There are general rules in Islam, but there are always circumstances when these rules do not apply. For example, eating pork is forbidden in Islam, but if you are stranded on an island and the only food available is pork, you are allowed to eat it to survive. There is a general rule of no contact between men and women, but in cases of medical need, these rules do not apply.

A lot of Muslims themselves have a misconception that is forbidden to donate organs, because desecrating a dead body is forbidden. While it is a general rule to not mess with dead bodies, many scholars in Islam have stated that in general you should not mess with bodies, but when it comes to trying to gain medical knowledge, or donating organs, it is not the same as just cutting up a body for no reason, and that donating organs is fine. Many clerics in places like Saudi Arabia are trying to spread this message to increase the number of organ donors cause they have a huge shortage due to this misconception.

This does not come from a 21st century, modified version of Islam either, these are actually orthodox principles in Islam.

As far as Muslim women in the medical field, if they feel thay they can not have any contact with males then they certainly should not enter the field, at least in the US. There are medical colleges for women in the middle east. They are entitled to their opinion, and shouldn't be criticized. But if a Muslim woman decides to practice medicine in the US and feels that any contact with men in a medical setting is permissible according to Islam, then she has legitimate reasons for believing so as well.

 

[Ibn Rushd]

^ Excellent post. Well said.