Muslims applying to DO

[Flushot]

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Oh here we go on the story I was alluding to earlier:

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/03/11/brazil.rape.abortion/index.html#cnnSTCText

This doctor in Brazil, along with the mother, and the entire ****ing medical team, was excommunicated by the catholic church for performing an abortion on a nine year old girl, pregnant with twins, who was raped by her stepfather, and to top it all off, they didn't excommunicate the stepfather.



Terrible. IF that doesn't deserve a I don't know what does

Thanks for the story; I had no idea it went down. It seems that there is finally a major media breakthrough in women's health in Brazil because in the article they state how many illegal abortions are done and the huge number of cases they get from botched attempts.

 

[FDNewbie]

I actually saw this thread by accident, and although I'm a bit past the pre-medical stage, I thought I'd put in my $0.02.

I'm a Muslim physician (a resident, specifically), currently in a Surgical residency. I cannot even BEGIN to tell you how challenging maintaining your religious OBLIGATIONS (let alone any preferences) can be in residency - and especially within the realm of a Surgical one, where the overriding mentality is that work comes before and is more important than ANYTHING and EVERYTHING else: God, family, personal time, everything.

Having said that, as a Muslim I fully keep in mind & perspective that our first and foremost as well as ultimate purpose in this world is to Worship Allah. This isn't just literal ritualistic worship like the 5 daily prayers; it encompasses our morals and values that often do indeed come into direct conflict with the nature of our work. So it takes a GREAT deal of extra effort and supportive staff (fellow residents, fellows, attendings, and administration) to enable you to main your religious obligations while on duty.

- I made it clear from the very beginning of the year that I *require* time for Friday prayers. Al7amdu lillah, most of the time this isn't a real big issue; I have one of my senior residents carry my pager for that hour or so. Some senior residents aren't religion/Muslim/additional responsibility friendly (take your pick; I can't read their hearts), so in those cases, I have to find a fellow resident to cover my pager for me for that time period. I've never been asked to return the favor for them, but I have offered many a time to have 'em take pager call from home in the early afternoon, (around 2-3 PM), and if anything requiring more than a verbal order pops up from then until the night float comes in at 6 PM, they can just call me and I'll handle it - rather than having them come back in from home. So it works out well al7amdu lillah.

It also helps that we have SEVERAL ppl attend Jumu'ah prayer in the hospital - from students & ancillary staff to residents, fellows, and attendings. Walking in from Jumu'ah w/ an attending who says something like "sorry he's late for rounds; we were at Friday prayer" even if he's an attending from a different specialty can go MILES for getting some heat off of your back 😉

- Religious holidays are tough. Surgery is setup different at different places; at my program I'm the sole intern on the team, w/ only one or two upper levels on the team (a 3rd year sometimes, then a chief/fellow). So me being MIA for an entire day is a huge problem for the team; there's no one available to do the floorwork while they're in the OR all day. So I've again had ppl cover my pager while I attend Eid prayer, say salamz to some peeps, then scoot right back on to the hospital.

- Ramadan; forget about getting protected time for Iftar haha. Def. not while on Surgery. Your pager will inevitably go off as you are buying, while you are about to sit down for, or just as you are about to devour your iftar. So take it in stride.

- Salah: It is a CHALLENGE to get all 5 prayers in. For example, Fajr often comes in like 5-10 min AFTER I need to leave my house, and if I'm late for ANY reason (traffic, or a pt. isn't doing well in the AM etc) and can't pray BEFORE AM rounds, it's almost impossible to catch Fajr cuz rounds end AFTER Fajr prayer is over.

Other prayers, you often get SLAMMED w/ a ton of pages, a trauma, several admissions, unannounced consults and rounds, etc, and the time flies before you know it.

The solution I've come up w/ is the simplest. While virtually everyone in my program has seen me praying in the call room or Chapel at one time or another, and know that I pray 5 times a day, I simply say "I gotta go to the bathroom" and go to make wudu', and pray. And I make it a point to do it pretty much within the first 30 min the Prayer comes in, because otherwise the above mentioned day drama can easily cost you to miss your salah - gauaranteed. If you don't pray it early, you won't be praying it on time at all. And no one argues w/ you re: going to the bathroom, and it enables you to get out of rounds (such as in the case of Fajr prayer) without having a 20 min discussion about how your patients come first (cuz that's often the mentality of the Chiefs/Attendings), which will inevitably leave you with a disgruntled team and poor evaluation. So you gotta be smart/slick about it. Do what you gotta do to feel out your team and seek Salah time in the smartest way possible w/o leaving ill feelings w/ your team, because not everyone is so understanding.

- DNRs: I make it clear I don't do them. Granted, it's the Attending that must sign off on it, I don't even approach the family about the topic. Nor do I write the order to withdraw care. These things are haram in Islam (unless the pt. is brain dead), and I make my religious morals & values VERY clear. I am NOT willing to compromise my morals and values in order to respect that of the patient's. Granted, I'm not trying to trump their values either; I simply won't lose mine for theirs. So I pass the buck to others who are willing to do that stuff - cuz I won't.

- Examining patients of the opposite gender: Big topic, won't/can't address it. It's simple yet complex. Allahu a3lam. All I'll say is, Islam prohibits khilwah (being alone w/ a member of the opposite sex) alone. The healthcare system now prevents this too, because of many complaints of sexual harrassment/groping/assult etc. So Sub7an Allah, you have the policies and guidelines working with you. Have the door open yet curtain pulled, and grab a nurse to chaparone you. That's a start.

There are many other topics that you'll find make practicing medicine as a Muslim in America quite a challenge, but these are some common basic ones I thought I'd address. But most importantly, be careful what speciality you choose. I can't see an Islamic argument that would support a male becoming an OB/GYN if there are women available to do it, for example. Also, be weary of fields like Surgery that are stubborn and unyielding about your committment to your patients and the hospital work. Al7amdu lilah I switched to Emergency Medicine, so I won't be dealing w/ these problems in the following years, but I can guarantee you it'll be quite tough being the senior resident on a long OR case, and having to break scrub once or twice to go pray and come back... You're bound to get a LOT of resistence (let alone the problem of sarcificing your religious, family, and personal time for the horrible lifestyle of a Surgeon).

Hope this helps some. Wallahu a3lam.

Wassalam.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

I actually saw this thread by accident, and although I'm a bit past the pre-medical stage, I thought I'd put in my $0.02.

I'm a Muslim physician (a resident, specifically), currently in a Surgical residency. I cannot even BEGIN to tell you how challenging maintaining your religious OBLIGATIONS (let alone any preferences) can be in residency - and especially within the realm of a Surgical one, where the overriding mentality is that work comes before and is more important than ANYTHING and EVERYTHING else: God, family, personal time, everything.

Having said that, as a Muslim I fully keep in mind & perspective that our first and foremost as well as ultimate purpose in this world is to Worship Allah. This isn't just literal ritualistic worship like the 5 daily prayers; it encompasses our morals and values that often do indeed come into direct conflict with the nature of our work. So it takes a GREAT deal of extra effort and supportive staff (fellow residents, fellows, attendings, and administration) to enable you to main your religious obligations while on duty.

- I made it clear from the very beginning of the year that I *require* time for Friday prayers. Al7amdu lillah, most of the time this isn't a real big issue; I have one of my senior residents carry my pager for that hour or so. Some senior residents aren't religion/Muslim/additional responsibility friendly (take your pick; I can't read their hearts), so in those cases, I have to find a fellow resident to cover my pager for me for that time period. I've never been asked to return the favor for them, but I have offered many a time to have 'em take pager call from home in the early afternoon, (around 2-3 PM), and if anything requiring more than a verbal order pops up from then until the night float comes in at 6 PM, they can just call me and I'll handle it - rather than having them come back in from home. So it works out well al7amdu lillah.

It also helps that we have SEVERAL ppl attend Jumu'ah prayer in the hospital - from students & ancillary staff to residents, fellows, and attendings. Walking in from Jumu'ah w/ an attending who says something like "sorry he's late for rounds; we were at Friday prayer" even if he's an attending from a different specialty can go MILES for getting some heat off of your back 😉

- Religious holidays are tough. Surgery is setup different at different places; at my program I'm the sole intern on the team, w/ only one or two upper levels on the team (a 3rd year sometimes, then a chief/fellow). So me being MIA for an entire day is a huge problem for the team; there's no one available to do the floorwork while they're in the OR all day. So I've again had ppl cover my pager while I attend Eid prayer, say salamz to some peeps, then scoot right back on to the hospital.

- Ramadan; forget about getting protected time for Iftar haha. Def. not while on Surgery. Your pager will inevitably go off as you are buying, while you are about to sit down for, or just as you are about to devour your iftar. So take it in stride.

- Salah: It is a CHALLENGE to get all 5 prayers in. For example, Fajr often comes in like 5-10 min AFTER I need to leave my house, and if I'm late for ANY reason (traffic, or a pt. isn't doing well in the AM etc) and can't pray BEFORE AM rounds, it's almost impossible to catch Fajr cuz rounds end AFTER Fajr prayer is over.

Other prayers, you often get SLAMMED w/ a ton of pages, a trauma, several admissions, unannounced consults and rounds, etc, and the time flies before you know it.

The solution I've come up w/ is the simplest. While virtually everyone in my program has seen me praying in the call room or Chapel at one time or another, and know that I pray 5 times a day, I simply say "I gotta go to the bathroom" and go to make wudu', and pray. And I make it a point to do it pretty much within the first 30 min the Prayer comes in, because otherwise the above mentioned day drama can easily cost you to miss your salah - gauaranteed. If you don't pray it early, you won't be praying it on time at all. And no one argues w/ you re: going to the bathroom, and it enables you to get out of rounds (such as in the case of Fajr prayer) without having a 20 min discussion about how your patients come first (cuz that's often the mentality of the Chiefs/Attendings), which will inevitably leave you with a disgruntled team and poor evaluation. So you gotta be smart/slick about it. Do what you gotta do to feel out your team and seek Salah time in the smartest way possible w/o leaving ill feelings w/ your team, because not everyone is so understanding.

- DNRs: I make it clear I don't do them. Granted, it's the Attending that must sign off on it, I don't even approach the family about the topic. Nor do I write the order to withdraw care. These things are haram in Islam (unless the pt. is brain dead), and I make my religious morals & values VERY clear. I am NOT willing to compromise my morals and values in order to respect that of the patient's. Granted, I'm not trying to trump their values either; I simply won't lose mine for theirs. So I pass the buck to others who are willing to do that stuff - cuz I won't.

- Examining patients of the opposite gender: Big topic, won't/can't address it. It's simple yet complex. Allahu a3lam. All I'll say is, Islam prohibits khilwah (being alone w/ a member of the opposite sex) alone. The healthcare system now prevents this too, because of many complaints of sexual harrassment/groping/assult etc. So Sub7an Allah, you have the policies and guidelines working with you. Have the door open yet curtain pulled, and grab a nurse to chaparone you. That's a start.

There are many other topics that you'll find make practicing medicine as a Muslim in America quite a challenge, but these are some common basic ones I thought I'd address. But most importantly, be careful what speciality you choose. I can't see an Islamic argument that would support a male becoming an OB/GYN if there are women available to do it, for example. Also, be weary of fields like Surgery that are stubborn and unyielding about your committment to your patients and the hospital work. Al7amdu lilah I switched to Emergency Medicine, so I won't be dealing w/ these problems in the following years, but I can guarantee you it'll be quite tough being the senior resident on a long OR case, and having to break scrub once or twice to go pray and come back... You're bound to get a LOT of resistence (let alone the problem of sarcificing your religious, family, and personal time for the horrible lifestyle of a Surgeon).

Hope this helps some. Wallahu a3lam.

Wassalam.

Great post; I love it.

Jazakum Allah Khair.

 

[binko]

I think people misinterpreted what I was trying to say.

I wasn't meaning to imply that I think Muslim women could never examine a male patient or should be allowed to skip important training. I was just saying that there are situations where it's urgent, or part of the doctor's duties, and then there are situations where accommodations can be made fairly easily and painlessly.

I'm not Muslim but being vegan (and believing in it in a way that makes it like a religion to me) I have had my share of situations that require explanation and accommodation. For example, I have done virtual dissections rather than ones on actual animals, and then taken the same test at the end of the quarter that everyone else does. I have been excused from labs that involved manipulation of animals and completed alternative assignments instead. There are organizations and laws in place to support these accommodations.

In both my situation and the case of a religious student, accommodations that don't compromise the quality of learning are not only within the realm of reasonable expectation, they are often also required and defined by law. Expecting to be respected as a human and not a robot is not an "extreme sense of entitlement".

 

[lammoush09]

No, she most certainly would have lost. You can't just dictate the school's curriculum to suit your beliefs.

I remember when I was a transport paramedic... a Muslim woman w/ RLQ abd. pn. @ 10/10 pale and diaphoretic w/ vag. bleeding. Her husband refused to allow her to be examined by a male ER doc who was the only one on.

They called us to transport the couple 40 miles to a facility that had a female attending. We got there just in time to see the woman doc sign out her shift to a male doc. They again refused and demanded to be returned in the ambulance to the original hospital. They signed out AMA and she died that night of ruptured ectopic...

That case infuriated me. You could tell she just wanted to be examined and helped w/ her misery but husband would have none of it and wouldn't even let her talk to me.

The family of course sued the hospital, and lost. Hope it was worth it, buddy.

I hope you're not going to be a doctor because this is very insensitive. There are many many cultural and religious barriers in healthcare in the U.S. and I hope that we as healthcare professionals learn to accommodate those rather than look down upon them. Jehovah's witnesses who refuse blood transfusions are the best known case, but there are numerous stories of Vietnamese, Thai, African, and South American peoples who simply face too many barriers .. with the diversity of the world, we should not expect them to bend to our ways and sacrifice their own values or beliefs.. on the contrary, medical practice should be flexible enough to accommodate everyone. It's moving in that direction, but obviously you are not.

 

[Semicolon]

I hope you're not going to be a doctor because this is very insensitive. There are many many cultural and religious barriers in healthcare in the U.S. and I hope that we as healthcare professionals learn to accommodate those rather than look down upon them. Jehovah's witnesses who refuse blood transfusions are the best known case, but there are numerous stories of Vietnamese, Thai, African, and South American peoples who simply face too many barriers .. with the diversity of the world, we should not expect them to bend to our ways and sacrifice their own values or beliefs.. on the contrary, medical practice should be flexible enough to accommodate everyone. It's moving in that direction, but obviously you are not.

He was talking about a woman who died due to her husband's misinformed religious values; how in the heck is he insensitive by being angered at that situation? We should respect differences, beliefs, values, and barriers to the extent that it does not harm life in the process. Human life is more valuable than any other intangible factor, and that was not the case in that situation.

 

[engineeredout]

I hope you're not going to be a doctor because this is very insensitive. There are many many cultural and religious barriers in healthcare in the U.S. and I hope that we as healthcare professionals learn to accommodate those rather than look down upon them. Jehovah's witnesses who refuse blood transfusions are the best known case, but there are numerous stories of Vietnamese, Thai, African, and South American peoples who simply face too many barriers .. with the diversity of the world, we should not expect them to bend to our ways and sacrifice their own values or beliefs.. on the contrary, medical practice should be flexible enough to accommodate everyone. It's moving in that direction, but obviously you are not.

Thats not insensitive at all dude. The guy let his wife die rather than being touched by a male physician.

We do not exist in a governmental system where religious doctrine = law (for the most part, no abortion arguments!). Religious tolerance is not the same as diehard religious embrace. I can tolerate the due next to me wearing a turban. What cannot/should not be tolerated is a woman dying because her husband won't let a male doctor in AMERICA touch her (note, this is america, not tehran). Thats where my tolerance ends.

 

[lammoush09]

No sorry guys, but this is where you are wrong. Talk to some experts on the issue. Whether we as physicians/healthcare professionals like it or not, if a young boy dies because his family are Jehovah's witnesses and refuse a blood transfusion, we have no say in the matter.

And I'm sorry, but even in medicine, there are things more valuable than pure human life .. this is where the debate between quality of life versus length of life begins.

I agree with those who have said that his actions would not be sanctioned by Islam. I'm a Muslim as well and I know that, in terms of healthcare, there are virtually no limits imposed when it comes to saving a life. Even DNR would be considered unacceptable because life must be preserved. And yes, a situation like frustrates me as well.

but that does not mean that we need to tell all people to leave their religion, values, or worldview at the door when they enter a hospital or a clinic.... I don't think you will when you enter it as a physician. Believe it or not, too many people have died because we misunderstand them and we need to become more inclusive.

This situation would have been solved easily if he, for example, lived in an area where there was a clinic to service Muslim women or Arab women or African women or immigrant women or whatever. Brigham and Women's hospital has one here in Boston and they do a tremendous job at addressing the needs of this population, particularly women who don't want to see a male ob/gyn or who have had female circumcision and feel that a woman relates to them better... or who just want to see a familiar looking face in a foreign city.

As I said before, medicine is moving towards finding solutions to these problems, not erecting more barriers for these people as we condemn what we may consider wrong behavior.

 

[Flushot]

I'll just throw in some anecdotal stuff here, since lammoush mentioned Jehovah's Witnesses.

I worked in a Seton hospital (Seton is a Catholic chain of hospitals) as a lowly undergrad intern doing busywork for the ethics committee and they had a case of the state claiming custody of a child whose parents did not want a blood transfusion due to being JW.

I didn't get to hear the debate or the meeting but the decision was fast and the patient lived. I have no idea about after the fact. Still, Seton ethics committees have a pretty good understanding and respect for religious wishes and decisions, so it's not like they didn't realize what could happen if they followed through.

So, no, I'm sorry to tell you lammoush that limits do exist for how far beliefs can go, especially if they directly impose on other people. In this case, it was argued and accepted that the parents imposed a fatal decision on a child, which was countered by the hospital.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Based on my islamic background and teachings I can say this:

That husband who let his wife die because he wouldn't let a male physician treat her is a criminal. People like him believe in the crust and leave the core of the religion.

Regarding that girl who was kicked out of the medical school because she wouldn't wear a t-shirt, I think that she should've addressed her religous attire to the school prior to admission. It would've been nicer if the school accomodated her wish, but it was her choice to attend that particular school. However, I still don't believe that she was expelled for that only reason.

Islam is very flexible and practicle religion; however, radicals are found in every discipline.

 

[Mohammed1989]

No sorry guys, but this is where you are wrong. Talk to some experts on the issue. Whether we as physicians/healthcare professionals like it or not, if a young boy dies because his family are Jehovah's witnesses and refuse a blood transfusion, we have no say in the matter.

And I'm sorry, but even in medicine, there are things more valuable than pure human life .. this is where the debate between quality of life versus length of life begins.

I agree with those who have said that his actions would not be sanctioned by Islam. I'm a Muslim as well and I know that, in terms of healthcare, there are virtually no limits imposed when it comes to saving a life. Even DNR would be considered unacceptable because life must be preserved. And yes, a situation like frustrates me as well.

but that does not mean that we need to tell all people to leave their religion, values, or worldview at the door when they enter a hospital or a clinic.... I don't think you will when you enter it as a physician. Believe it or not, too many people have died because we misunderstand them and we need to become more inclusive.

This situation would have been solved easily if he, for example, lived in an area where there was a clinic to service Muslim women or Arab women or African women or immigrant women or whatever. Brigham and Women's hospital has one here in Boston and they do a tremendous job at addressing the needs of this population, particularly women who don't want to see a male ob/gyn or who have had female circumcision and feel that a woman relates to them better... or who just want to see a familiar looking face in a foreign city.

As I said before, medicine is moving towards finding solutions to these problems, not erecting more barriers for these people as we condemn what we may consider wrong behavior.

Alright I agree with you that we do need more hospitals that can accomodate other cultures and religions. The husband was just too much though, I mean I'm Muslim and I sure wouldn't let my mom die just because she can't be seen by a female doctor. Her life was on the line and he simply just wanted a female doctor.

Another thing that was wrong about the guy was trying to sue the hospital. I mean alright atleast they tried to help her, they went to another hospital that was far away. The husband could justify by religious ways but in that situation she needed serious medical attention.

About where he lived is a completely different topic, since not every area has clincs for a certain religion or race. You do make a good point but I still see that the husband should have let her get the treatment. Atleast thats my view on this.

 

[binko]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Islam is similar to orthodox Judaism, in that there is a commandment to preserve life, and other rules are secondary to that and can be temporarily suspended in cases of conflict. For example, Jews who are too sick to safely fast on Yom Kippur are not only permitted, but commanded to eat on that day. Muslims, is there a comparable law in Islam?

 

[FlaMedic]

I hope you're not going to be a doctor because this is very insensitive.

1) I am going to be a Doctor

2) I'm probably a little too sensitive in that I don't like to see people suffer and die at the behest of religious beliefs.

I think that the precedent has been set that the denial of medical care based on religious/spiritual health reasons can and should result in criminal charges and jail, etc.

American Acacemy of Pediatrics agrees (duh) and supports the prosecution of parents or responsible parties who deny care...

http://www.cirp.org/library/ethics/AAP3/

Oh and here is a sweetheart of a family that let their baby die of ecsema of all things...enjoy your time in jail.

http://www.wesh.com/health/19369757/detail.html

 

[FlaMedic]

I can guarantee you it'll be quite tough being the senior resident on a long OR case, and having to break scrub once or twice to go pray and come back...

With all due respect, if I found out any surgeon did this while operating on me or my family I would do everything in my power to see that he/she lost his license to practice medicine.

This is an abomination, religious belief or no...

 

[binko]

With all due respect, if I found out any surgeon did this while operating on me or my family I would do everything in my power to see that he/she lost his license to practice medicine.

This is an abomination, religious belief or no...

What if they break scrub because they have to pee? Do you think surgeons just learn to hold it for 8 or 12 hours? Maybe you should get a wristband that says you don't want any surgeon touching you unless his favorite meal is "hundreds and thousands".

 

[Flushot]

What if they break scrub because they have to pee? Do you think surgeons just learn to hold it for 8 or 12 hours? Maybe you should get a wristband that says you don't want any surgeon touching you unless his favorite meal is "hundreds and thousands".

Come now, you can't compare a conscious decision vs. a biological function.

 

[binko]

Come now, you can't compare a conscious decision vs. a biological function.

Yes I can; they both have the same effect on your surgery: virtually none.

Anyway, medibots don't make any conscious decisions so you're safe, right? Any time you have a human, you have the danger of thoughts.

 

[MaximusD]

At my school there was a big Muslim hubub a year or two ago.

Muslim female student refused to participate in OMM labs due to having to wear t-shirt and shorts in front of males or something...

She made a big fuss and threatened to sue. School kicked her out anyway. I'm not sure what happened to her but it sure did generate a hell of a lot of controversy.

She violated her matriculation agreement. At PCOM I had to sign something saying that I could dress appropriately for OMM if required to do so...😳🙁 sorry kiddo.

 

[MaximusD]

I hope you're not going to be a doctor because this is very insensitive.

Burnett's Law has been invoked. This thread is null & void.

 

[Ibn Rushd]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Islam is similar to orthodox Judaism, in that there is a commandment to preserve life, and other rules are secondary to that and can be temporarily suspended in cases of conflict. For example, Jews who are too sick to safely fast on Yom Kippur are not only permitted, but commanded to eat on that day. Muslims, is there a comparable law in Islam?

Yep, you're correct. I actually recently read an article about Islamic bioethics which I thought was written beautifully. Here's a short excerpt that I think explains the idea of making exceptions quite well:

... "Necessity permits the impermissible." This is a fundamental principle known and understood by most practicing Muslims. For instance, Muslims are prohibited from pork and wine. However, when a person is in a life-threatening situation, it becomes permissible--in fact an obligation--to consume either of them if it would prevent loss of life. This would be the case should one be starving, and pork is the only sustenance found, or if someone is choking or dying of thirst and wine is the only substance available. In both cases, the necessity of preserving life outweighs the prohibition of the substance. This ruling is particularly important in matters of medical practice, insofar as it has been used by scholars to permit such procedures as organ transplants and blood transfusions.

I think by extension, we can say that if someone is too ill to fast during Ramadan, that the person would in fact be obligated not to fast because preserving health would take precedence. I'm not a jurist, but this is my basic understanding.

 

[FlaMedic]

Burnett's Law has been invoked. This thread is null & void.

Classic. I hadn't heard Burnett's in awhile...good catch, Max.

What you're referring to has been dubbed "Burnett's Law" on SDN.

"If XYZ", then "you are obviously going to be a horrible doctor" or, "I feel bad for your future patients"

-Courtesy of Depakote

 

[Flushot]

Yes I can; they both have the same effect on your surgery: virtually none.

That's not really the point though; one is a decision that's based on what you, the surgeon, want to do at that time. It's not like you can willfully command your kidneys to produce more or less urine or for the surgery to go longer than anticipated.

My thought was that it's about the patient, first and foremost. If my patient needs me there next to that table, I'll be there as much as I physically can until it's done. Yes, you can make/ask/demand concessions, but at that point, who is this really about?

 

[binko]

That's not really the point though; one is a decision that's based on what you, the surgeon, want to do at that time. It's not like you can willfully command your kidneys to produce more or less urine or for the surgery to go longer than anticipated.

But you could give up coffee, you could carefully regulate your water intake, you could even wear a diaper. If breaking scrub briefly and then returning were such a horrible thing, surgeons would be outfitted with spacesuits that have a pee-pouch.

I'm obviously just being argumentative here, because I really don't see what the big deal is with breaking scrub to pray. What if he goes to the bathroom after he prays, thereby combining prayer break and pee break? Does that significantly change the ethics of the situation?

My thought was that it's about the patient, first and foremost. If my patient needs me there next to that table, I'll be there as much as I physically can until it's done. Yes, you can make/ask/demand concessions, but at that point, who is this really about?

This is just overly dramatic. Obviously he's not going to go pray while something urgent is going on. No one is likely to take a pee break while a patient is coding on the table, either.

Ah I love the smell of ethics edge-cases in the evening.

 

[FlaMedic]

Surgeon: Well, I'm very sorry to tell you this, but your mother passed away on the operating table.
Family: Oh my goodness, what happened?
Surgeon: How the hell should I know, I was down in the chapel taking communion.
Family: What the hell? Couldn't you have waited???
Surgeon: Nah, screw her....I take communion when I want even if it is in the middle of an operation.

I hope everyone finds this as ridiculous as I do...

 

[binko]

Surgeon: Well, I'm very sorry to tell you this, but your mother passed away on the operating table.
Family: Oh my goodness, what happened?
Surgeon: How the hell should I know, I was down in the chapel taking communion.
Family: What the hell? Couldn't you have waited???
Surgeon: Nah, screw her....I take communion when I want even if it is in the middle of an operation.

I hope everyone finds this as ridiculous as I do...

Of course we do, you made it up especially for that purpose. There are usually surgical teams, right?

 

[FlaMedic]

Of course we do, you made it up especially for that purpose. There are usually surgical teams, right?

Yeah. I hear now that routine appendectomy gets a team of at least 25 surgeons to share the workload to allow for bathroom breaks, religious whims, stock market checks, etc.

 

[Darklord]

Do a rural rotation and you'll have time for everything. 😉

 

[Flushot]

But you could give up coffee, you could carefully regulate your water intake, you could even wear a diaper. If breaking scrub briefly and then returning were such a horrible thing, surgeons would be outfitted with spacesuits that have a pee-pouch.

I'm obviously just being argumentative here, because I really don't see what the big deal is with breaking scrub to pray. What if he goes to the bathroom after he prays, thereby combining prayer break and pee break? Does that significantly change the ethics of the situation?


This is just overly dramatic. Obviously he's not going to go pray while something urgent is going on. No one is likely to take a pee break while a patient is coding on the table, either.

Ah I love the smell of ethics edge-cases in the evening.

Well, I guess you could say I was being dramatic for the sake of argument too. We're both caught 😉

That said, I still argue that praying and peeing are two very much different things. From just examining these two activities, one action is something you must do biologically sooner or later, while the other is more of a thing you'd like to do. Sure, you could wear a diaper or piss yourself if the patient was on the edge of death for hours and you're needed, but I can't compare the two.

Maybe if someone can argue that prayer is equivalent to a bodily function coherently, I might consider it.

 

[DrA]

I could probably contribute to this the most, since I am exactly what everyone is discussing: a Muslim girl who covers and attends an osteopathic school. In OMM, I have requested for the minimum- to be able to keep my shirt on. I work with both male and female partners. I did not "demand" for it nor for any other special accommodations, and I was prepared to handle it had my request been refused. Luckily, my school and all my classmates are much more open to the matter than most of you are expressing. I'm not surprised but continuously disappointed to the opinions regarding this subject. Studying medicine is not the "American" thing to do. So if a person is not a cut-out version of whatever your idea is of a typical American medical student is, does not translate to that they do not deserve to or should not be studying and practicing in this country. Why do people quickly jump to suggest that people like me should just "go home" and study there? Did you ever think that this IS home? Or that such freedom to wear whatever may not exist there either? And why should anyone have to sacrifice their personal beliefs because they choose to study medicine? It seems the idea of the American freedom has evaporated long ago. Like one of my friends said to me once, it would be sad to ask me to undo something that I have been doing and followed most of my adult life. A difference between her and many of you is that she was capable of putting herself in my shoes, even among our many differences in lifestyle and beliefs.

It's easy to be astonished at some anecdote of a friend's sister's cousin's dad. All the answers about what Islam allows and does not allow have been stated very clearly in this thread, yet it's so much more fun to ridicule than to try to grasp the idea. No, Islam doesn't allow you to abandon male patients, or let your wife die, or scream at a nurse for bringing you Jello. Any person with an ounce of logic can deduce that such a religion...any religion, would not preach so.

 

[Mohammed1989]

I could probably contribute to this the most, since I am exactly what everyone is discussing: a Muslim girl who covers and attends an osteopathic school. In OMM, I have requested for the minimum- to be able to keep my shirt on. I work with both male and female partners. I did not “demand” for it nor for any other special accommodations, and I was prepared to handle it had my request been refused. Luckily, my school and all my classmates are much more open to the matter than most of you are expressing. I'm not surprised but continuously disappointed to the opinions regarding this subject. Studying medicine is not the “American” thing to do. So if a person is not a cut-out version of whatever your idea is of a typical American medical student is, does not translate to that they do not deserve to or should not be studying and practicing in this country. Why do people quickly jump to suggest that people like me should just “go home” and study there? Did you ever think that this IS home? Or that such freedom to wear whatever may not exist there either? And why should anyone have to sacrifice their personal beliefs because they choose to study medicine? It seems the idea of the American freedom has evaporated long ago. Like one of my friends said to me once, it would be sad to ask me to undo something that I have been doing and followed most of my adult life. A difference between her and many of you is that she was capable of putting herself in my shoes, even among our many differences in lifestyle and beliefs.

It's easy to be astonished at some anecdote of a friend's sister's cousin's dad. All the answers about what Islam allows and does not allow have been stated very clearly in this thread, yet it's so much more fun to ridicule than to try to grasp the idea. No, Islam doesn't allow you to abandon male patients, or let your wife die, or scream at a nurse for bringing you Jello. Any person with an ounce of logic can deduce that such a religion...any religion, would not preach so.

well said 👍
I think I'm in love 😍 lol

 

[DrA]

well said 👍
I think I'm in love 😍 lol

Thanks lol

 

[FDNewbie]

Based on my islamic background and teachings I can say this:

That husband who let his wife die because he wouldn't let a male physician treat her is a criminal. People like him believe in the crust and leave the core of the religion.

Regarding that girl who was kicked out of the medical school because she wouldn't wear a t-shirt, I think that she should've addressed her religous attire to the school prior to admission. It would've been nicer if the school accomodated her wish, but it was her choice to attend that particular school. However, I still don't believe that she was expelled for that only reason.

Islam is very flexible and practicle religion; however, radicals are found in every discipline.

In a non-antagonistic and non-aggressive fashion, I'd like to kindly remind myself as well as others that "Based on my islamic background and teachings I can say this:" We are NOT in a position to pass judgment on specific individuals - especially when it's based on hearsay. We can clarify what ACTION is correct or incorrect according to Islamic principles, but we don't brand certain PEOPLE as this or that. Otherwise, you fall right into the radicalism you're speaking out against ;-) Just a friendly thought akhi.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Islam is similar to orthodox Judaism, in that there is a commandment to preserve life, and other rules are secondary to that and can be temporarily suspended in cases of conflict. For example, Jews who are too sick to safely fast on Yom Kippur are not only permitted, but commanded to eat on that day. Muslims, is there a comparable law in Islam?

No need to correct you; you're spot-on. The Shari'ah (Islamic Jurisprudence) has 5 very specific aims - in the following order - which can be suspended for the sake of one of the aims above it (ie higher on the priority list):

- Religion
- Life
- Intellect
- Lineage
- Wealth

With all due respect, if I found out any surgeon did this while operating on me or my family I would do everything in my power to see that he/she lost his license to practice medicine.

This is an abomination, religious belief or no...

LOL relax big man. No one said THE ONLY SURGEON ON THE CASE left. We work in teams, usually 2-3 man teams of SURGEONS, plus a scrub assistant. If one of the surgeons breaks off to attend to their needs (be it to grab something to eat, drink, use the restroom, or pray), that's perfectly ok. Before you get all jumpy, keep in mind that when YOU'RE under the knife, you want your surgeon to be AS COMFORTABLE as possible...which is why we have many surgeons who ROUTINELY break scrub to freshen up and grab something to eat (like a granola bar and some gatorade) to keep w/ it while enduring a long surgery.

Oh and FYI, in MANY instances where multiple traumas/emergencies are at hand, it'll be a surgeon w/ the scrub tech ONLY, no one else in the room, and they do JUST FINE. So ONE of THREE surgeons ducking out for 5 min isn't the end of the world. It happens ALL the time - just for various reasons.

I think by extension, we can say that if someone is too ill to fast during Ramadan, that the person would in fact be obligated not to fast because preserving health would take precedence. I'm not a jurist, but this is my basic understanding.

You are indeed correct.

Of course we do, you made it up especially for that purpose. There are usually surgical teams, right?

EXACTLY.

 

[FlaMedic]

Didn't seem to work out so well for this poor fella...

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/arndt1.html

 

[The Poet Sings]

No need to correct you; you're spot-on. The Shari'ah (Islamic Jurisprudence) has 5 very specific aims - in the following order - which can be suspended for the sake of one of the aims above it (ie higher on the priority list):

- Religion
- Life
- Intellect
- Lineage
- Wealth

but aren't you saying that you can't suspend a religious belief for a life reason, since life is below religion? please explain, cuz now i'm all lost. it sounds like everyone else has been saying that life is a higher priority than religion, but this list says otherwise.

 

[megaFox]

None.

 

[drizzt3117]

Didn't seem to work out so well for this poor fella...

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/arndt1.html

Sounds like that guy had way more problems than just that.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2004/03/21/what_went_wrong/

 

[engineeredout]

but aren't you saying that you can't suspend a religious belief for a life reason, since life is below religion? please explain, cuz now i'm all lost. it sounds like everyone else has been saying that life is a higher priority than religion, but this list says otherwise.

Yeah I'm all confused now too.

Didn't seem to work out so well for this poor fella...

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/arndt1.html

Thats just... wow.

 

[FDNewbie]

Didn't seem to work out so well for this poor fella...

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/arndt1.html

Article says he left the patient ALONE on the OR table, w/ anesthesia alone. That's ******ED. Again, I'm speaking of cases where there is a TEAM of surgeons, and one can step out for a few minutes while another surgeon REMAINS with the patient, continuing the operation. If you find this hard to believe, I suggest you hold your opinions until you're actually IN Surgery, because I'm speaking from experience.

but aren't you saying that you can't suspend a religious belief for a life reason, since life is below religion? please explain, cuz now i'm all lost. it sounds like everyone else has been saying that life is a higher priority than religion, but this list says otherwise.

I REALLY don't want to open this topic because it's like trying to explain a branch while ignoring the tree. So in short, what I wrote is a transliteration in English of the correct terminology in Arabic. By "Religion" (in the #1 priority spot), we mean matters related to protecting your religion as a whole (ie from matters that would result in a loss of your religion as a whole). We don't mean tenants of faith. We mean core non-negotiable dogmas of the religion.

What you're referring to is an Islamic Jurisprudence principle that says "Al daroorat tubee7 al ma7thuuraat" ie extreme circumstances override less important restrictions, for lack of a better translation. That's the same principle by which, for example, if you're stranded in the desert, about to die from thirst, and the only source of fluids you have come across is alcohol, then you are permitted to drink it - but only to the amount that is absolutely necessary to sustain/save your life.

I prob. shouldn't have mentioned the list of the Aims of Shari'ah because w/o context, it only makes things more difficult to understand. Trust me on this one 😉

There are a lot of things other religions require people to do as well. We just feel it is more important to respect the system and the people who are part of it. If all of the rest of the religions demand prayer breaks, fasting breaks etc., where will it end up? I mean, if you are learning to take care of other humans and working hard at it, would the God say "No, go do a prayer for me first?".

Just for the records, I believe in God (one God), not necessarily in organized religion.

I've heard this argument a gazillion times before. And the simple points you must be keen to are:

- I'm not aware of any other religions - esp. among the 3 monotheistic ones - that have regular, timely religious requirements such as Prayer in Islam.
- Moreover, prayer in Islam is not just a requirement, it is the MOST IMPORTANT required act of worship in the religion. Without prayer, one cannot be a Muslim. It's a non-negotiable tenant.
- The perspectives on life as a whole are wholly different in the East vs. the West. The East (Christians and Jews as well, FYI) place a MUCH larger emphasis on morals, values, and religion as a whole than does the West.
- In fact, in Islam, the SOLE purpose of creation is to Worship Allah (and we don't mean just ritualistic worship, as obedience is a form of worship, as is doing what is permitted - but not required - for the sake of Pleasing Allah...that's considered worship as well).

Prayer breaks are not something so unbelievably difficult to do. Practically 1/3 of the world is predominantly Muslim, in nations where the entire country's activities STOP for the 5 daily prayers. It's EXTREMELY doable. No one's asking for that here in the US, however. We're merely asking for reasonable accommodations. Accommodations have already been taken for Jews and Christians w/ Saturday and Sunday being days off from work as it is. We don't get Friday off for our congregational prayers, now do we?

As for Ramadan, all that's required is to break the fast by putting something into your mouth. A nurse can slip a sip of Gatorade or a piece of candy into your mouth and that's all you need...and you can have your meal later, when the case is over. REASONABLE accommodations is all we ask.

On that note, I think it's very interesting how far we're willing to go to accommodate one another...based on how VALUABLE we see that individual to be to us. It has NOTHING to do w/ how valuable we (or that individual) see the actual practice to be. Or how important we think it is to be accommodating overall. It's merely based on that individual's importance to US. There are Muslim Attendings who schedule cases around Friday prayer and the daily prayers, and there are Muslim students/residents who pretty much get the boot when asking for such accommodations.

Oh and megaFox, in Islam, we KNOW Allah tells us to tend to our responsibility to HIM FIRST, prior to attending to any other responsibility, be it to ourselves, our fellow humans, etc. It's about prioritizing. If you're ok with putting forth your responsibilities to man over your responsibilities to God, I question whom you worship...as worship is none other than that which you obey - the first & foremost.

 

[J-Rad]

Didn't seem to work out so well for this poor fella...

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/arndt1.html

Seriously, this should be another "SDN Law" (a la Burnett's Law): Someone will invariably trot out some random, anomalous case that really bears no relevance to the argument at hand (due either to extreme rarity, contextual differences and, or both) declare that it does reflects relevantly to the argument and expect that the argument has been won by some piece of irrelevant trivia.

FDN: I am neither a believer in religion nor deity, but I do believe in human dignity and respect for fellow man/woman (and I do find religion interesting from an intellectual standpoint). You have done a fine job explaining your position in a very patient manner. I agree that reasonable accommodations can be made with little pain most of the time. I think, most of the time, a Muslim's colleagues will be happy to help though, clearly, there will be exceptions.

 

[binko]

tenants: people who rent from a landlord
tenets: principles

sorry, that's just really really bothering me.

 

[FDNewbie]

Seriously, this should be another "SDN Law" (a la Burnett's Law): Someone will invariably trot out some random, anomalous case that really bears no relevance to the argument at hand (due either to extreme rarity, contextual differences and, or both) declare that it does reflects relevantly to the argument and expect that the argument has been won by some piece of irrelevant trivia.

Haha...well said!

FDN: I am neither a believer in religion nor deity, but I do believe in human dignity and respect for fellow man/woman (and I do find religion interesting from an intellectual standpoint). You have done a fine job explaining your position in a very patient manner.

Thanks 🙂

I agree that reasonable accommodations can be made with little pain most of the time. I think, most of the time, a Muslim's colleagues will be happy to help though, clearly, there will be exceptions.

I agree w/ this as well.

tenants: people who rent from a landlord
tenets: principles

sorry, that's just really really bothering me.

Thanks...duly noted 😉

 

[J-Rad]

I could probably contribute to this the most, since I am exactly what everyone is discussing: a Muslim girl who covers and attends an osteopathic school. In OMM, I have requested for the minimum- to be able to keep my shirt on. I work with both male and female partners. I did not “demand” for it nor for any other special accommodations, and I was prepared to handle it had my request been refused. Luckily, my school and all my classmates are much more open to the matter than most of you are expressing...

When I went to med school at UNECOM one of my classmates was a Muslim female. She was allowed to have female only partners and she wore long sleeve shirts and leotards under shorts and a t-shirt. During first year OMM she also was allowed to have a screened off corner of the room, but by second year OMM I no longer saw a screen. We were not close friends, but she was very nice. To my knowledge no one felt put off by the accommodations made for her nor felt in any way inconvenienced by them. Likewise, I am not aware anyone feeling that her OMM skills suffered for her choice of attire. There were men in my class who felt uncomfortable taking their t-shirts off (usually the chubby wookie types) and were not given a hard time about it as well.

 

[FlaMedic]

Seriously, this should be another "SDN Law" (a la Burnett's Law): Someone will invariably trot out some random, anomalous case that really bears no relevance to the argument at hand (due either to extreme rarity, contextual differences and, or both) declare that it does reflects relevantly to the argument and expect that the argument has been won by some piece of irrelevant trivia.

Uh, no. The discussion at hand was a surgeon leaving a pt. on the table to take care of something entirely un-related to the operation at hand. I simply posted a link referring to a surgeon who did exactly this, and got his license yanked.

 

[DrA]

Uh, no. The discussion at hand was a surgeon leaving a pt. on the table to take care of something entirely un-related to the operation at hand. I simply posted a link referring to a surgeon who did exactly this, and got his license yanked.

The surgeon dealing with the court case left a patient anesthetized and waiting for more than 30 mins; the Muslim surgeon suggested leaving during a surgery for a short break while others are still working on the pt. Not the same at all.

 

[binko]

Uh, no. The discussion at hand was a surgeon leaving a pt. on the table to take care of something entirely un-related to the operation at hand. I simply posted a link referring to a surgeon who did exactly this, and got his license yanked.

But leaving a patient to take care of something unrelated is sometimes okay. We can agree that taking a pee break is okay and taking a trip to Florida is not.

Also the reason the surgeon needed cash so urgently was because he didn't plan ahead. Very different from taking a few minutes to pray. It's not like these Muslim doctors are running across town to the mosque, they're going to a close-by room in the hospital and doing something that takes a very short time, comparable to a pee break.

 

[Semicolon]

But leaving a patient to take care of something unrelated is sometimes okay. We can agree that taking a pee break is okay and taking a trip to Florida is not.

Also the reason the surgeon needed cash so urgently was because he didn't plan ahead. Very different from taking a few minutes to pray. It's not like these Muslim doctors are running across town to the mosque, they're going to a close-by room in the hospital and doing something that takes a very short time, comparable to a pee break.

Speaking of which, how long are these prayers? If they're literally like 5 minutes, then I really don't see what the big deal is honestly...

 

[Mohammed1989]

Speaking of which, how long are these prayers? If they're literally like 5 minutes, then I really don't see what the big deal is honestly...

less than 15 mins, 15 mins max

besides if its mid day then lets say 10 mins max

 

[Bowl of oranges]

I hope you're not going to be a doctor because this is very insensitive

And I'm sorry, but even in medicine, there are things more valuable than pure human life .. this is where the debate between quality of life versus length of life begins.

Who would i rather have as a doctor someone who A) thinks that religion should not be respected if it will kill that persons wife. B) Does not think human life holds the highest value.
TOUGH CALL*

*sarcasm

 

[ms8]

I am also a muslim girl who covers and would be going to NYCOM in aug. Like DrA I also ask just for the minimum- to dress modestly especially when there are males in the room. Although it would be nice to have a female partner, I m prepared to work with either gender. Does anyone know what the rules at NYCOM are? I saw some students with hijab there when I went for an interview so I know there must have been some issue about this. Also they mention in their handbook that if you cover your head for religious reasons you can substitute by wearing a thin scarf when studying cranial, so I am sure there must be some sort of adjustmentthat could be done in regards to dressing in shorts/tanks. Does anyone know what it is?

 

[Mohammed1989]

I am also a muslim girl who covers and would be going to NYCOM in aug. Like DrA I also ask just for the minimum- to dress modestly especially when there are males in the room. Although it would be nice to have a female partner, I m prepared to work with either gender. Does anyone know what the rules at NYCOM are? I saw some students with hijab there when I went for an interview so I know there must have been some issue about this. Also they mention in their handbook that if you cover your head for religious reasons you can substitute by wearing a thin scarf when studying cranial, so I am sure there must be some sort of adjustmentthat could be done in regards to dressing in shorts/tanks. Does anyone know what it is?

I think you should contact the school directly and ask them these questions, that would be the best thing to do. What I can check is since my cousin just graduated from there but he is a male I will ask him some of these questions. I'm pretty sure he had to have a muslim girl or two in his class with the same issue.