MUST READ: Whatever you do, do NOT go to graduate school!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NFkappaB]

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Hello,

I am 32 years old, finished a Ph.D in physiology specializing in cellular apoptosis from Baylor College of Medicine, and has now been working as a post doc for 3 years. I have always wanted to go into medicine, I had undergrad GPA of 3.5, MCAT of 31, but my ECs have always been lacking clinical experience since I was always bogged down in doing research in my undergrad years in which I had 3 publications.

I applied for 1 cycle after undergrad, got waitlisted, then went to do my masters, applied again after masters, again got waitlisted. Finally I was convinced by my PI to do a Ph.D in which I could have a "fruitful research career that is high-paying and rewarding." Since I had a good experience with my masters, I committed to doing a Ph.D, thinking that if I become a MD afterwards, this Ph.D will help me get into a specialist field in medicine.

So, here I am, finally got an acceptance to a MD program 3 years after Ph.D in which I spent doing post-doc. It took me 5 application cycles to finally get an acceptance, which I still feel good about because I admit I am a very poor public speaker and suck at interviewing.

However, I would like to take this opportunity to *enlighten* everyone on this forum to never even consider graduate studies because there are simply no decent jobs *at all*! Every one of my peers in the Ph.D program is stuck in a post-doc jobs paying no more than 35,000$ year (many make less than that) and is only on a 1-2 year contract with little to no benefits. My wife left me because of such lack of job security (I moved to 3 cities in 3 years) as well as the low-pay that is impossible to support a family in such large cities. As of now there are about 500-700 qualified post-docs for a faculty-position in the academia or a scientist-position in the bio-tech industry. The competition is cut throat, and the chances are that unless you published 30-40 papers in journals including Nature Medicine, Science, PNAS, you will be spending the rest of your life moving from city to city like a migrant working low-pay jobs and never be able to retire. In all 3 labs I have been in plus my Ph.D lab, all the post-docs were in their 40s-50s, with decades of experience, strong publication record, teaching experience under their belt, making around 40,000$ a year. The day I met them, they convey their sense of desperation, hopelessness, and regret to me.

As for just a masters degree? You can forget about wasting 2 years + $60,000 getting this piece of paper that is better suited to be used as toilet paper. Counting all my friends, peers, and students who have just got a masters, not ONE of them is working in their field. All of them changed careers due to frustration and difficulty in landing a position in the industry.

So, PLEASE! Take my advice, learn from my mistake, do NOT go to graduate school! Gain significant work experience during your undergrad, so you are at least employable at some lowly-technician position after you graduate and waiting to get into medicine. You must think of getting an acceptance to medicine as if your life DEPENDED on it, because really, there is no other future/careers out there for your life science degree.

 

[bobbys]

RE.

I'm glad I never went to a Masters program. Best decision I've ever made.

 

[emno]

Hello,

I am 32 years old, finished a Ph.D in physiology specializing in cellular apoptosis from Baylor College of Medicine, and has now been working as a post doc for 3 years. I have always wanted to go into medicine, I had undergrad GPA of 3.5, MCAT of 31, but my ECs have always been lacking clinical experience since I was always bogged down in doing research in my undergrad years in which I had 3 publications.

I applied for 1 cycle after undergrad, got waitlisted, then went to do my masters, applied again after masters, again got waitlisted. Finally I was convinced by my PI to do a Ph.D in which I could have a "fruitful research career that is high-paying and rewarding." Since I had a good experience with my masters, I committed to doing a Ph.D, thinking that if I become a MD afterwards, this Ph.D will help me get into a specialist field in medicine.

So, here I am, finally got an acceptance to a MD program 3 years after Ph.D in which I spent doing post-doc. It took me 5 application cycles to finally get an acceptance, which I still feel good about because I admit I am a very poor public speaker and suck at interviewing.

However, I would like to take this opportunity to *enlighten* everyone on this forum to never even consider graduate studies because there are simply no decent jobs *at all*! Every one of my peers in the Ph.D program is stuck in a post-doc jobs paying no more than 35,000$ year (many make less than that) and is only on a 1-2 year contract with little to no benefits. My wife left me because of such lack of job security (I moved to 3 cities in 3 years) as well as the low-pay that is impossible to support a family in such large cities. As of now there are about 500-700 qualified post-docs for a faculty-position in the academia or a scientist-position in the bio-tech industry. The competition is cut throat, and the chances are that unless you published 30-40 papers in journals including Nature Medicine, Science, PNAS, you will be spending the rest of your life moving from city to city like a migrant working low-pay jobs and never be able to retire. In all 3 labs I have been in plus my Ph.D lab, all the post-docs were in their 40s-50s, with decades of experience, strong publication record, teaching experience under their belt, making around 40,000$ a year. The day I met them, they convey their sense of desperation, hopelessness, and regret to me.

As for just a masters degree? You can forget about wasting 2 years + $60,000 getting this piece of paper that is better suited to be used as toilet paper. Counting all my friends, peers, and students who have just got a masters, not ONE of them is working in their field. All of them changed careers due to frustration and difficulty in landing a position in the industry.

So, PLEASE! Take my advice, learn from my mistake, do NOT go to graduate school! Gain significant work experience during your undergrad, so you are at least employable at some lowly-technician position after you graduate and waiting to get into medicine. You must think of getting an acceptance to medicine as if your life DEPENDED on it, because really, there is no other future/careers out there for your life science degree.

very nice and thoughtful post.
thanks

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Well being honest, it depends on what kind of graduate program your looking at. If we're talking some physiology PhD, well your basically looking at medical school teaching positions and college teaching positions. If we're talking something which you can use in a job ( MS in chem, forensic sci) or a PhD in ( Psych, Toxicology, Pharmacology) your looking at relatively decent opportunities.
I mean a lot of these jobs require a good graduate degree. It's just about finding a actual degree with has actual usefulness. A PhD in physiology is simply a degree with you can not use in many places with major $ in it.
Though hey, 5 years later and you've got a extremely strong grasp on the sciences.

 

[NickNaylor]

Teach at a CC?

 

[NFkappaB]

Well being honest, it depends on what kind of graduate program your looking at. If we're talking some physiology PhD, well your basically looking at medical school teaching positions and college teaching positions. If we're talking something which you can use in a job ( MS in chem, forensic sci) or a PhD in ( Psych, Toxicology, Pharmacology) your looking at relatively decent opportunities.
I mean a lot of these jobs require a good graduate degree. It's just about finding a actual degree with has actual usefulness. A PhD in physiology is simply a degree with you can not use in many places with major $ in it.

All fields within the life sciences are considered to be related once you reach a certain level.

I got my Ph.D in cardiac research specializing in apoptosis, but there are only so many cardiac research labs in the world... Post-docs are expected to adjust to fields that are related, but different than their original thesis. In my case, I did my first post-doc in a cancer biology lab which heavily specializes in pharmacology, my second post-doc in a biochemistry lab studying polymerases, and my final post-doc in a Immunology lab working with T-cell receptors.

 

[NFkappaB]

Teach at a CC?

You have to realize that those instructor-level positions are very low-paying. You start off teaching a couple of sections of entry-level chemistry, getting paid about 6,000$ a course/semester. So if you teaches 4 sections a year (the standard), you are only making 24,000$ a year. In major cities I have worked at this is not enough for your basic necessities.

However, those instructor jobs still has fierce competition, as every post-doc uses every advantage they can get - such as this kind of teaching experience, to land a tenure-tracked faculty position which requires a strong track record of teaching. So, in the end, you are looking at about 300-400 applicants for this kind of opening. I have TAed in 3 different courses, and also was a course instructor for 2 summer sections, and I never even got a response for those kind of jobs.

 

[NickNaylor]

You have to realize that those instructor-level positions are very low-paying. You start off teaching a couple of sections of entry-level chemistry, getting paid about 6,000$ a course/semester. So if you teaches 4 sections a year (the standard), you are only making 24,000$ a year. In major cities I have worked at this is not enough for your basic necessities.

However, those instructor jobs still has fierce competition, as every post-doc uses every advantage they can get - such as this kind of teaching experience, to land a tenure-tracked faculty position which requires a strong track record of teaching. So, in the end, you are looking at about 300-400 applicants for this kind of opening. I have TAed in 3 different courses, and also was a course instructor for 2 summer sections, and I never even got a response for those kind of jobs.

Better than no job, amirite?

 

[brooklynblunder]

what he's saying is its less than a post-doc salary. and being a post-doc sucks.

with most major universities changing their teaching faculty from full-time to part time, the pay and the # of opportunities is getting less


i still think that the pharmaceutical industry offers pretty good scientific opportunities depending on where you live. you should be able to get a job with a phd in the industry

 

[virusgirl]

OP, I'm sorry you've had such a negative experience, but I have to disagree with much of what you have said.

First of all, to say that there are no jobs at all is quite simply untrue. People with life science graduate degrees can and do find jobs all the time. I got a master's degree in microbiology, went on a couple of interviews, and found a job a few months after graduating. So have my classmates who have entered the job market. Granted, it's tougher now than it used to be, but there are definitely still positions for qualified applicants, including master's-level scientists. I assure you that my degree is somewhat more valuable than toilet paper.

I have never met a post-doc who made $35,000/year with few/no benefits. Heck, I made more than that, with benefits, with only an MS! One post-doc I worked with had a son with a very serious medical condition, and he mentioned more than once how glad he was that his family had such comprehensive coverage or they would have been paying thousands of dollars out of pocket every year for his son's care. And most post-docs are not in their 40s or 50s... come on now. Clearly there are some exceptions to this, but nearly all postdocs are in their 20s/30s, and this is because they almost always manage to find employment when they are done. Some go on to faculty positions (and while you may need 30 Nature papers to become faculty at Hopkins, this is absolutely not the case for many other schools), many go into industry, some become staff scientists in academia... There are many options.

Again, I'm sorry your graduate experience wasn't a positive one, but I just cannot agree with the doom-and-gloom picture that you have painted. Obviously research isn't for everyone -- I was in research and changed fields, but it's because my goals changed, not because there were no professional opportunities.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

All fields within the life sciences are considered to be related once you reach a certain level.

I got my Ph.D in cardiac research specializing in apoptosis, but there are only so many cardiac research labs in the world... Post-docs are expected to adjust to fields that are related, but different than their original thesis. In my case, I did my first post-doc in a cancer biology lab which heavily specializes in pharmacology, my second post-doc in a biochemistry lab studying polymerases, and my final post-doc in a Immunology lab working with T-cell receptors.

That's subjective, you got your degree in physiology which of course does mean your strong in some of those fields. But regardless a toxicologist and pharmacologist has a high chance of getting into a drug firm or something. I don't think a physiologist does. There is training which they get and you don't.
But anyways, you can still probably find a good job. But it's not going to be easy.
It's like the people who major in sociology and anthropology in undergrad. They have almost no chance of getting a job in their fields even with a masters.

 

[Cancer p53]

While I will admit, as a Masters student at Uconn I've seen the difficulty of getting a job, this post is a bit extreme. Having a PhD never meant you will automatically get a high paying job. There is so much more that goes into recruitment than your degree. Some companies even act like universities and look to fill a specific diversity profile. Sure, there are a lot of qualified people looking for jobs. Everyone knows it's hard. There are jobs to be had out there, people just need to learn to make connections and keep pursuing them. I work with a post-doc who does nothing but bitch about how hard it is, yet he seems to not know anything about conducting a productive job search, nor is he willing to take anything but the perfect job. However, a friend who works down the hall and hasn't even defended yet already has a job in Boston making 65k/year.

And as for the Masters, degree... A Masters degree is not BS, I have mine, I did very well in the program, I've been completely funded the entire way as have others in my program and am now in an MD/PhD program. As for the frustrations of those people who changed careers... most of the job postings I looked through prior to my med school acceptance wanted MS level techs. There were MANY positions out there. BTW, applying to online postings generally won't get you far. You need to spend time networking to find people who can help you land those jobs. Most companies hire through recruiters, not through their job postings online....

Btw, med schools don't really give a damn about research unless you are applying to top tier schools or are pursuing MD/PhD. I had a pretty intense research background as an undergrad and ended up getting waitlisted and going to grad school because I didn't have enough shadowing and volunteering. Similar thing happened this year but I managed to get a school to transfer my app to the MD/PhD program and within a few weeks I was interviewed and accepted.

Take this post with a grain of salt... Yes it's hard, but it's not impossible, nor is it the worst idea ever if research is your thing. If grad school was/is your way to med school, think twice about what you really want and make sure you have a LOT of shadowing and volunteer work to back up why you want MD only. If you're headed for MD/PhD and just didn't make it the first time, it may make your application VERY strong.

 

[NFkappaB]

OP, I'm sorry you've had such a negative experience, but I have to disagree with much of what you have said.

First of all, to say that there are no jobs at all is quite simply untrue. People with life science graduate degrees can and do find jobs all the time. I got a master's degree in microbiology, went on a couple of interviews, and found a job a few months after graduating. So have my classmates who have entered the job market. Granted, it's tougher now than it used to be, but there are definitely still positions for qualified applicants, including master's-level scientists. I assure you that my degree is somewhat more valuable than toilet paper.

I have never met a post-doc who made $35,000/year with few/no benefits. Heck, I made more than that, with benefits, with only an MS! One post-doc I worked with had a son with a very serious medical condition, and he mentioned more than once how glad he was that his family had such comprehensive coverage or they would have been paying thousands of dollars out of pocket every year for his son's care. And most post-docs are not in their 40s or 50s... come on now. Clearly there are some exceptions to this, but nearly all postdocs are in their 20s/30s, and this is because they almost always manage to find employment when they are done. Some go on to faculty positions (and while you may need 30 Nature papers to become faculty at Hopkins, this is absolutely not the case for many other schools), many go into industry, some become staff scientists in academia... There are many options.

Again, I'm sorry your graduate experience wasn't a positive one, but I just cannot agree with the doom-and-gloom picture that you have painted. Obviously research isn't for everyone -- I was in research and changed fields, but it's because my goals changed, not because there were no professional opportunities.

There are always 7$/hr lab tech positions at universities, when I say "career" and "decent jobs" I am excluding those type of positions.

A simple google search will confirm everything I have said. A vast majority of post-docs will not be able to secure a tenure-tracked faculty position in their life time. This is a fact. So the competition for scientist positions in the biotech industries are fierce. I have applied to over 200 such scientists positions, and have not even come close to getting a job.

By logic and my own observation, many Ph.D graduates will be stuck in a "perpetual" cycle of being a post-doc for their entire life. Furthermore, you do realize that post-doc positions are funded by grant and to lesser extent, universities. As such, there is no "raises" like other careers. You are stuck at a 35,000$-40,000$, and if you are very lucky, $50,000 (top 10% salary range for post-docs) for the rest of your life.

 

[Cancer p53]

OP

Again, I'm sorry your graduate experience wasn't a positive one, but I just cannot agree with the doom-and-gloom picture that you have painted. Obviously research isn't for everyone -- I was in research and changed fields, but it's because my goals changed, not because there were no professional opportunities.

👍👍 Exactly!

 

[morning]

There are useful and not-so-useful PhDs. The problem is that professors NEED grad students to do their dirty work, so every professor has a bunch of grad students under them...anyone with basic math skills can figure out that having 6 PhD students to every professor makes a career in academia unrealistic and unlikely. Normally industry will pick up some of the slack, but you have to have a PhD useful to it.

 

[brooklynblunder]

I also think the fact that you wanted to do medicine and pursued a PhD to enhance your app/medical career might add to your resentment. I do understand what you mean by the life-long post-doc route. There are tons of people following that model (mostly non-Americans) and it does seem to suck watching them. However, I think a good amount of people in science just don't do well at going after jobs aggressively and keeping an open mind (like p53 suggested)

 

[NFkappaB]

While I will admit, as a Masters student at Uconn I've seen the difficulty of getting a job, this post is a bit extreme. Having a PhD never meant you will automatically get a high paying job. There is so much more that goes into recruitment than your degree. Some companies even act like universities and look to fill a specific diversity profile. Sure, there are a lot of qualified people looking for jobs. Everyone knows it's hard. There are jobs to be had out there, people just need to learn to make connections and keep pursuing them. I work with a post-doc who does nothing but bitch about how hard it is, yet he seems to not know anything about conducting a productive job search, nor is he willing to take anything but the perfect job. However, a friend who works down the hall and hasn't even defended yet already has a job in Boston making 65k/year.

And as for the Masters, degree... A Masters degree is not BS, I have mine, I did very well in the program, I've been completely funded the entire way as have others in my program and am now in an MD/PhD program. As for the frustrations of those people who changed careers... most of the job postings I looked through prior to my med school acceptance wanted MS level techs. There were MANY positions out there. BTW, applying to online postings generally won't get you far. You need to spend time networking to find people who can help you land those jobs. Most companies hire through recruiters, not through their job postings online....

Btw, med schools don't really give a damn about research unless you are applying to top tier schools or are pursuing MD/PhD. I had a pretty intense research background as an undergrad and ended up getting waitlisted and going to grad school because I didn't have enough shadowing and volunteering. Similar thing happened this year but I managed to get a school to transfer my app to the MD/PhD program and within a few weeks I was interviewed and accepted.

Take this post with a grain of salt... Yes it's hard, but it's not impossible, nor is it the worst idea ever if research is your thing. If grad school was/is your way to med school, think twice about what you really want and make sure you have a LOT of shadowing and volunteer work to back up why you want MD only. If you're headed for MD/PhD and just didn't make it the first time, it may make your application VERY strong.

I graduated with a Ph.D from Baylor COM, one of the top research schools in the nation. I did 3 postdocs at Upenn, Penn state, and UCLA, which are 3 of the top research institutions in the world. Even with their *connections*, the number of openings in the industry brought to me and my colleague's attention is far less than the number of post-docs at any single department in any of those institutions.

If you still have any doubts, and don't take my word for it. Please read the following advice from other post-docs and professors.

"Perpetual post-docs"
http://www.biocareers.com/frame/perpetual_postdocs.html

"Don't become a Scientist!"
http://wuphys.wustl.edu/~katz/scientist.html

"Slaves to Science"
http://www.biocareers.com/article/job_market_context/slaves_to_science.html

"Do we need more Scientists?"
http://www.biocareers.com/article/job_market_context/do_we_need_more_scientists.html



You can read more such articles here..
http://www.biocareers.com/articles/job_market_context.html


As a Ph.D with 3 post-docs and 8 publications (2 in high-impact journals) under my belt, I can attest that everything these students, post-docs, scientists, and professors say are true.

 

[familyaerospace]

As for just a masters degree? You can forget about wasting 2 years + $60,000 getting this piece of paper that is better suited to be used as toilet paper. Counting all my friends, peers, and students who have just got a masters, not ONE of them is working in their field. All of them changed careers due to frustration and difficulty in landing a position in the industry.

Yea, in my case, I earned a masters degree just to be told I HAD to have an MD to continue doing my research. They tell me this after the fact! What a bunch of BS! But it is partially what set me back on the path to become a doctor so I can't think too badly of the situation.

I have one friend who has TWO masters degrees (biology and physics) and was working as a schoolbus driver until recently.

 

[Cancer p53]

I graduated with a Ph.D from Baylor COM, one of the top research schools in the nation. I did 3 postdocs at Upenn, Penn state, and UCLA, which are 3 of the top research institutions in the world. Even with their *connections*, the number of openings in the industry brought to me and my colleague's attention is far less than the number of post-docs at any single department in any of those institutions.

If you still have any doubts, and don't take my word for it. Please read the following advice from other post-docs and professors.

"Perpetual post-docs"
http://www.biocareers.com/frame/perpetual_postdocs.html

"Don't become a Scientist!"
http://wuphys.wustl.edu/~katz/scientist.html

"Slaves to Science"
http://www.biocareers.com/article/job_market_context/slaves_to_science.html

"Do we need more Scientists?"
http://www.biocareers.com/article/job_market_context/do_we_need_more_scientists.html



You can read more such articles here..
http://www.biocareers.com/articles/job_market_context.html


As a Ph.D with 3 post-docs and 8 publications (2 in high-impact journals) under my belt, I can attest that everything these students, post-docs, scientists, and professors say are true.

Like I said... it's tough yeah, we all know. Take this for instance, straight out of that first article....

Small Window
On the other hand, there's such a thing as too much experience, Mr. Vaughn says. Two postdoctoral appointments may be better than one, but three or four start to look suspicious. Potential employers view six or eight years of postdoc work as a red flag, not a mark of accomplishment, he says.
To sum up, postdocs have a relatively narrow window for advancement. Ms. Peterson, for one, thinks hers has already closed. "If you don't get a position within a few years, your options are pretty limited," she says.


ie.. post-doc after post-doc doesn't help... if you continually take those positions, it only gets harder to get a job because it makes you look bad. I realize its tough to get the job, which is why you say don't get a PhD, but all those post-doc's you know who have been doing it forever. Of course they have trouble getting a job.



The tip of the pyramid may be out of reach, but most postdocs eventually manage to make it somewhere, Mr. Vaughn says. "When you're 35 years old and make $30,000 a year and don't know what the hell the future holds, it's tough," he says. "But most postdocs end up where they want to be. It's not some oblique turn towards an uncertain future. It just takes longer than it used to."

and again... it's hard but doable. Most people get where they wanted to be eventually.

 

[skatertudoroga]

Hello,

I am 32 years old, finished a Ph.D in physiology specializing in cellular apoptosis from Baylor College of Medicine, and has now been working as a post doc for 3 years. I have always wanted to go into medicine, I had undergrad GPA of 3.5, MCAT of 31, but my ECs have always been lacking clinical experience since I was always bogged down in doing research in my undergrad years in which I had 3 publications.

I applied for 1 cycle after undergrad, got waitlisted, then went to do my masters, applied again after masters, again got waitlisted. Finally I was convinced by my PI to do a Ph.D in which I could have a "fruitful research career that is high-paying and rewarding." Since I had a good experience with my masters, I committed to doing a Ph.D, thinking that if I become a MD afterwards, this Ph.D will help me get into a specialist field in medicine.

So, here I am, finally got an acceptance to a MD program 3 years after Ph.D in which I spent doing post-doc. It took me 5 application cycles to finally get an acceptance, which I still feel good about because I admit I am a very poor public speaker and suck at interviewing.

However, I would like to take this opportunity to *enlighten* everyone on this forum to never even consider graduate studies because there are simply no decent jobs *at all*! Every one of my peers in the Ph.D program is stuck in a post-doc jobs paying no more than 35,000$ year (many make less than that) and is only on a 1-2 year contract with little to no benefits. My wife left me because of such lack of job security (I moved to 3 cities in 3 years) as well as the low-pay that is impossible to support a family in such large cities. As of now there are about 500-700 qualified post-docs for a faculty-position in the academia or a scientist-position in the bio-tech industry. The competition is cut throat, and the chances are that unless you published 30-40 papers in journals including Nature Medicine, Science, PNAS, you will be spending the rest of your life moving from city to city like a migrant working low-pay jobs and never be able to retire. In all 3 labs I have been in plus my Ph.D lab, all the post-docs were in their 40s-50s, with decades of experience, strong publication record, teaching experience under their belt, making around 40,000$ a year. The day I met them, they convey their sense of desperation, hopelessness, and regret to me.

As for just a masters degree? You can forget about wasting 2 years + $60,000 getting this piece of paper that is better suited to be used as toilet paper. Counting all my friends, peers, and students who have just got a masters, not ONE of them is working in their field. All of them changed careers due to frustration and difficulty in landing a position in the industry.

So, PLEASE! Take my advice, learn from my mistake, do NOT go to graduate school! Gain significant work experience during your undergrad, so you are at least employable at some lowly-technician position after you graduate and waiting to get into medicine. You must think of getting an acceptance to medicine as if your life DEPENDED on it, because really, there is no other future/careers out there for your life science degree.

Hey, I graduate college/masters(nonthesis smp) but have no significant work experience. So I applied for a bunch of research tech positions and not one even wrote back to my emails. BTW in nyc research techs all pay $35k/yr and i think postdocs are about 70k/yr(i.e. places like cornell publish their salary data). But what else can I do? If I try something like nerve conduction tech or phelbotomist or histo tech, they all want some certificate or "work experience in this area". Btw i would not apply for any ph.d. because i did not have ugrad research experience and i have no interest in a career in research. but i would imagine that someone with publications in ugrad would have an easier time getting into med school. you couldve just worked as a research tech and volunteered on the weekends. btw i dont understand why you had to pay for a masters program if you had the background to do a funded ph.d.

 

[brooklynblunder]

pretty sure you are wrong about that 70k post doc figure. isnt it NIH regulated?

EDIT: in Sloan-Kettering, the salary range goes from $42k (first year out of PhD) -$52k (5th year out of PhD)

If a tech stays for a while, he/she will have a higher salary than a post doc (few labs like to pay techs more and not have any postdocs/students, so the PI has full control)

 

[NFkappaB]

The bottomline of my message is that your chances of getting into medical school with 3.5 GPA 30MCAT is much higher than your chances of actually finding a career with a graduate degree. So, if you are thinking about what to do with your spare time, focus all effort into gaining a MD acceptance...

 

[Avoidthetiger]

OP, it sounds like you are upset because you went the PhD route not so much out of enjoyment but because you were hoping this would somehow get your into medical school. I think that is the wrong route to take and you had false expectations of what your masters and PhD would get you.

I think most students getting a phd realize the hard route in front of them will be difficult but are doing what they love so they don't care. One of the PhD candidates in my lab was originally pre-med but switched after he realized how much he enjoyed neurobiology. Yes, post-doc will be hard and finding a career afterwards will take awhile... but then again, he joined a field that doesn't have that many individuals (compared to biotechnology).

$30,000 a year is not bad if you enjoy research and I don't understand why you are bashing the pay so much (especially as a single person, that's a good life, and if your significant other works you should have significantly more than that).

As a masters student though, your post did not make me regret coming to graduate school... just confused about why you did. I think graduate school is a good option for pre-med students who didn't get into medical school the traditional route and wish to do some more research before starting medical school. I would recommend to any student considering this option to find graduate schools that will give you TA tuition waivers, so you do not have to pay for this expensive schooling (or will fund your schooling some other way). (The phd track at my school will actually pay tuition and provide you with a stipend -- it makes me wish I liked research just a tad bit more)

 

[NFkappaB]

OP, it sounds like you are upset because you went the PhD route not so much out of enjoyment but because you were hoping this would somehow get your into medical school. I think that is the wrong route to take and you had false expectations of what your masters and PhD would get you.

I think most students getting a phd realize the hard route in front of them will be difficult but are doing what they love so they don't care. One of the PhD candidates in my lab was originally pre-med but switched after he realized how much he enjoyed neurobiology. Yes, post-doc will be hard and finding a career afterwards will take awhile... but then again, he joined a field that doesn't have that many individuals (compared to biotechnology).

$30,000 a year is not bad if you enjoy research and I don't understand why you are bashing the pay so much (especially as a single person, that's a good life, and if your significant other works you should have significantly more than that).

As a masters student though, your post did not make me regret coming to graduate school... just confused about why you did. I think graduate school is a good option for pre-med students who didn't get into medical school the traditional route and wish to do some more research before starting medical school. I would recommend to any student considering this option to find graduate schools that will give you TA tuition waivers, so you do not have to pay for this expensive schooling (or will fund your schooling some other way). (The phd track at my school will actually pay tuition and provide you with a stipend -- it makes me wish I liked research just a tad bit more)

Making 30,000$ your whole life with no hope of advancement means very likely you will never afford to have a family and that you will never retire.

 

[bigman225]

The OP makes a great point. As someone who worked in a basic science laboratory for two years as an undergraduate and one year post-bacc, I mostly agree with his/her assessment of the career path. There are 100 fed up, burnt out, overworked and underpaid 40+ year old post docs for every tenure track position. Even senior, tenured positions often don't match the salaries of an entry level FP doc. So there's no real comparison between the fields. It is a testament to the contrarian nature of these boards that people are posting in disagreement, but he's spot on. I'm VERY happy I choose not to enter a PhD program.

 

[NFkappaB]

Like I said... it's tough yeah, we all know. Take this for instance, straight out of that first article....

Small Window
On the other hand, there's such a thing as too much experience, Mr. Vaughn says. Two postdoctoral appointments may be better than one, but three or four start to look suspicious. Potential employers view six or eight years of postdoc work as a red flag, not a mark of accomplishment, he says.
To sum up, postdocs have a relatively narrow window for advancement. Ms. Peterson, for one, thinks hers has already closed. "If you don't get a position within a few years, your options are pretty limited," she says.


ie.. post-doc after post-doc doesn't help... if you continually take those positions, it only gets harder to get a job because it makes you look bad. I realize its tough to get the job, which is why you say don't get a PhD, but all those post-doc's you know who have been doing it forever. Of course they have trouble getting a job.



The tip of the pyramid may be out of reach, but most postdocs eventually manage to make it somewhere, Mr. Vaughn says. "When you're 35 years old and make $30,000 a year and don't know what the hell the future holds, it's tough," he says. "But most postdocs end up where they want to be. It's not some oblique turn towards an uncertain future. It just takes longer than it used to."

and again... it's hard but doable. Most people get where they wanted to be eventually.

These 2 statements are quite contradictory. If you do too many post-docs, then the window closes. In other words, after your 2 post-docs, you have 1 in a 100 shot for a faculty position, and 1 in a 30 shot for a job in the industry. After say 10 post docs, you have 1 in a 1000 shot for a faculty position, and 1 in a 100 shot for a job in the industry.

Sure its doable...but why not just start gambling the moment you graduate from high school? You have a higher chance of hitting the jackpot that way than going through a Ph.D route.

 

[NFkappaB]

The OP makes a great point. As someone who worked in a basic science laboratory for two years as an undergraduate and one year post-bacc, I mostly agree with his/her assessment of the career path. There are 100 fed up, burnt out, overworked and underpaid 40+ year old post docs for every tenure track position. Even senior, tenured positions often don't match the salaries of an entry level FP doc. So there's no real comparison between the fields. It is a testament to the contrarian nature of these boards that people are posting in disagreement, but he's spot on. I'm VERY happy I choose not to enter a PhD program.

I believe the official numbers are more like 400-500 post-docs for every tenure-tracked positions. That is how many people apply for each opening.

Starting after my 2nd post-doc, I have applied to 8 tenured-tracked positions and 12 teaching positions. I got no response from any of the positions. When I call to inquire, the secretary informed me that the "application packages" were too thick to look through and told me to write to the University Search Committee. Of course, none of them ever bothered to acknowledge my e-mail.

 

[alibai3ah]

OP, it sounds like you are upset because you went the PhD route not so much out of enjoyment but because you were hoping this would somehow get your into medical school. I think that is the wrong route to take and you had false expectations of what your masters and PhD would get you.

I think most students getting a phd realize the hard route in front of them will be difficult but are doing what they love so they don't care. One of the PhD candidates in my lab was originally pre-med but switched after he realized how much he enjoyed neurobiology. Yes, post-doc will be hard and finding a career afterwards will take awhile... but then again, he joined a field that doesn't have that many individuals (compared to biotechnology).

$30,000 a year is not bad if you enjoy research and I don't understand why you are bashing the pay so much (especially as a single person, that's a good life, and if your significant other works you should have significantly more than that).

As a masters student though, your post did not make me regret coming to graduate school... just confused about why you did. I think graduate school is a good option for pre-med students who didn't get into medical school the traditional route and wish to do some more research before starting medical school. I would recommend to any student considering this option to find graduate schools that will give you TA tuition waivers, so you do not have to pay for this expensive schooling (or will fund your schooling some other way). (The phd track at my school will actually pay tuition and provide you with a stipend -- it makes me wish I liked research just a tad bit more)

I disagree with this (and completely agree with the OP). If you are unable to get into medical school, do not i repeat DO NOT do a masters/phD. There are other ways you can improve your chances. I would recommend an SMP (sort of masters) or instead work as a research assitant and take part time courses (science courses). I think a masters/phD is a waste of time, if all you want to do is medical school.

The OP is right. While many PhDs will be successful (say a tenured professor at a prestigious private university). The vast majority of the time, a PhD is just not very lucrative degree to have. Considering it takes the same amount of time, I think if you have the option go the MD route, go with it. Of course this also depends on how badly you want to be a doctor. If you don't like patients, then I would not do it. But what the OP has said, I have heard over and over again from many PhDs.

 

[afugazzi]

This is not true if you do grad school in engineering.

 

[mdeast]

I feel you. This is pretty much the reason I decided against a research-only career. There just isn't much money in it unless you're part of a small select few, and I've talked to enough professors to realize the difficulties of securing faculty positions and tenure at a university. Or, alternatively, if you sell your soul to industry...you end working in a pretty sterile, boring environment.

My PI explained it to me like this. Science is a pyramid. The bottom is graduate students. Then post-docs, and finally PIs at the small top point. At each successive rung, there are less and less spots available. 10 times as many post-docs as there are jobs for them. Thus, most must enter other careers, stay in their current position, or go outside of America to find jobs.

Medicine is more stable, it gives you more options. You can choose a clinical career, a research career, a policy career. The degree is respected enough that you can head into alternative careers (consulting, business, etc.) if you end up deciding that clinical practice isn't your thing. It definitely is a valuable degree that demonstrates hard work, critical thinking, and the ability to manage high levels of stress. All good qualities.

Congrats on getting in finally. Sometimes the longer journey ends up being the more enriching one.

 

[foofish]

I have never met a post-doc who made $35,000/year with few/no benefits. Heck, I made more than that, with benefits, with only an MS!

I'll have to second that....I worked as a research assistant the year *before* med school (with just a BA) in a neuroscience lab and *I* made $35,000 with amazing benefits (seriously, my dentist thought my reimbursement/copays were an error at first).

I just googled the salaries for the postdocs and the minimums are from 39K (with absolutely NO experience) to 50K+, with individual PIs allowed to increase that at their own discretion. With your experience you'd be making at least 10K more than you claim. Fellows also get the same benefits that I did. (Before you tell me I'm wrong, here's the link http://postdoc.hms.harvard.edu/policies.html). Sure, it's not a ton, but part of the "pay" of a postdoc is to establish your research and publish in order to get those academic appointments you describe. Also, to be honest if you went into a PhD in physiology for the money I think you were misguided from the start...I think few people consider academic research positions as cash cows.

FYI, be forewarned that you're going to be dealing with a similar problem when it comes to residency and fellowship...after med school you have a guaranteed 3 to 7+ years of a salary you would consider substandard (usually ~45K, varies by year and location).

 

[MedMan25]

Making 30,000$ your whole life with no hope of advancement means very likely you will never afford to have a family and that you will never retire.

I agree with you that if you want to go to medical school, find a way to get into medical school. Maybe do a masters to bolster your application but going the PhD route would be a big mistake. However, if you decide to go the PhD route because you want a PhD AND you want to make more than $30K/year, the best advice is to enter a PhD program that will allow you to do that. There are plenty of PhD programs out there that offer full ride scholarships + research stipends so you can graduate debt free. When you graduate, find a good job in the private sector and work your way up. I know a number of biotech grads working in R&D that make double what you seem to think you're destined to make the rest of your life as a PhD.

 

[foofish]

I disagree with this (and completely agree with the OP). If you are unable to get into medical school, do not i repeat DO NOT do a masters/phD. There are other ways you can improve your chances. I would recommend an SMP (sort of masters) or instead work as a research assitant and take part time courses (science courses). I think a masters/phD is a waste of time, if all you want to do is medical school.

I disagree with this as a blanket statement applying to all applicants. I think this advice is valid for many applicants, who are better off spending a year taking extra classes or doing an SMP rather than getting trapped in a degree they don't actually want (as it seems was the OP's case).

That said, a masters/PhD can be a very smart career move for someone who knows they are going to be trying for one of the competitive residencies. There are certain specialties that all but require a solid research background in order to match, and so having a research-heavy masters or PhD in a related field can be a definite boost when it comes to applying for residency (e.g. there's no way you're going to convince me that, say, a PhD in neuroscience isn't going to help you match in neurosurgery). Of course, it's financially the smarter move to do a combined MD/PhD, but someone gets rejected the first time around it's a decent second alternative.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

This is not true if you do grad school in engineering.

👍

Engineering masters ftw

 

[NFkappaB]

I'll have to second that....I worked as a research assistant the year *before* med school (with just a BA) in a neuroscience lab and *I* made $35,000 with amazing benefits (seriously, my dentist thought my reimbursement/copays were an error at first).

I just googled the salaries for the postdocs and the minimums are from 39K (with absolutely NO experience) to 50K+, with individual PIs allowed to increase that at their own discretion. With your experience you'd be making at least 10K more than you claim. Fellows also get the same benefits that I did. (Before you tell me I'm wrong, here's the link http://postdoc.hms.harvard.edu/policies.html). Sure, it's not a ton, but part of the "pay" of a postdoc is to establish your research and publish in order to get those academic appointments you describe. Also, to be honest if you went into a PhD in physiology for the money I think you were misguided from the start...I think few people consider academic research positions as cash cows.

FYI, be forewarned that you're going to be dealing with a similar problem when it comes to residency and fellowship...after med school you have a guaranteed 3 to 7+ years of a salary you would consider substandard (usually ~45K, varies by year and location).

Post-doc pay varies by school and grant. I got paid 33,000$ in my first post doc at UPenn, and finally 36,000$ in my 3rd one at UCLA. NIH has their own scales, CDC has their own scales. Of course, the more it pays, the more competitive it gets.

I also want to point out, in all 3 post-docs, I never worked only 40 hours, I was at the lab more like 50-60 hours a week. So a 60 hour week and making 35,000$ translates to bare minimum wage. 11 Years of intensive education and making minimum wage in America should bring outrage, not "you shouldn't go into research if you only care about the money."

 

[Cyradis]

The post-docs at my school make around 45-55k/year, so while not great, that's a lot better than the 30-35k numbers being bounced around (and my school isn't a really big research institution). The postdoc I work with has moved around in 3 diff countries as a post-doc and told me it's been around 45-55k in all 3 countries... (UK, US, Canada). I'm sure some schools (like the ones the OP has worked at) do have lower than average salaries, but my point is that decent post-doc positions are not rare.

An important thought I'm surprised no one's brought up yet - a MSc or PhD gives you pretty nice credentials for going into teacher's college. Where I live, having a PhD, going to teacher's college gets you about 80k starting as a high school teacher. While that's obviously not what people on this forum are going for, if we're talking about back-ups and what an MSC/PhD could be good for - teacher's college is definitely worth considering.

I imagine teacher pay varies quite a bit state-to-state, but the benefits are amazing and you have decent job security.

 

[MedMan25]

That said, a masters/PhD can be a very smart career move for someone who knows they are going to be trying for one of the competitive residencies.

Getting a PhD or MD/PhD for no other reason than make yourself more competitive for residency would be a huge mistake btw. Yes, a PhD would make you more competitive but for the amount of time you have to put into it, it isn't worth it. You're tacking on a minimum of 4 years onto your training just to have 3 letters to put on your application. The majority of people who match into the most competitive residencies do not have PhDs.

 

[MedMan25]

Post-doc pay varies by school and grant. I got paid 33,000$ in my first post doc at UPenn, and finally 36,000$ in my 3rd one at UCLA. NIH has their own scales, CDC has their own scales. Of course, the more it pays, the more competitive it gets.

I also want to point out, in all 3 post-docs, I never worked only 40 hours, I was at the lab more like 50-60 hours a week. So a 60 hour week and making 35,000$ translates to bare minimum wage. 11 Years of intensive education and making minimum wage in America should bring outrage, not "you shouldn't go into research if you only care about the money."

That's why you don't do a post-doc. I worked for a biotech company a few years ago, all the scientists there made >$50K and never worked more than 40 hours a week (and if you factor in the 2 hour lunch breaks they frequently took, usually worked far less than 40 hours) and none of them had done a post-doc.

 

[foofish]

Getting a PhD or MD/PhD for no other reason than make yourself more competitive for residency would be a huge mistake btw. Yes, a PhD would make you more competitive but for the amount of time you have to put into it, it isn't worth it. You're tacking on a minimum of 4 years onto your training just to have 3 letters to put on your application. The majority of people who match into the most competitive residencies do not have PhDs.

You seem to have missed the fact that I said it makes sense for people who have been rejected from medical school. I never said that it makes sense for people who, at the time, can actually get into medical school. But if you're interested in research and can't get into medical school, I think an additional degree helps more than that line on your CV about working at Starbucks. And yes, most people don't have combined degrees, but you'll find fewer people who don't match who do have the additional degree.

 

[foofish]

Post-doc pay varies by school and grant. I got paid 33,000$ in my first post doc at UPenn, and finally 36,000$ in my 3rd one at UCLA. NIH has their own scales, CDC has their own scales. Of course, the more it pays, the more competitive it gets.

I also want to point out, in all 3 post-docs, I never worked only 40 hours, I was at the lab more like 50-60 hours a week. So a 60 hour week and making 35,000$ translates to bare minimum wage. 11 Years of intensive education and making minimum wage in America should bring outrage, not "you shouldn't go into research if you only care about the money."

I was posting that as a counter-example to your statement that "$35,000 without benefits or less" (and then later when you posted $30,000 for life) was true for most postdocs in the US and had the internet search to prove it. Also, like I said, residency and fellowship isn't going to be much better, with an 80 hour work week when you'll also be making $11 and hour.

Don't get me wrong, I'm quite sympathetic to your situation...it sounds like you were talked into the degree when you didn't really want it in the first place and were given expectations that weren't very realistic, which was just a set up for disappointment and frustration. Best of luck in med school, just be careful not to repeat some of the same mistakes....what you've signed up for is also a long road of "outrage" about not getting paid what you feel is deserved.

 

[MedMan25]

You seem to have missed the fact that I said it makes sense for people who have been rejected from medical school. I never said that it makes sense for people who, at the time, can actually get into medical school. But if you're interested in research and can't get into medical school, I think an additional degree helps more than that line on your CV about working at Starbucks. And yes, most people don't have combined degrees, but you'll find fewer people who don't match who do have the additional degree.

And what I'm saying is, if you get rejected from medical school, don't go out and get a PhD because it's going to give you an edge on your residency application. Your time is far better spent finding other ways to get into medical school that don't require spending the next 4-7 years working on a PhD. The fact that you may want to do something competitive shouldn't be a reason to consider a PhD. I would recommend pursing a PhD only to someone who enjoys research and wants a PhD.

 

[foofish]

And what I'm saying is, if you get rejected from medical school, don't go out and get a PhD because it's going to give you an edge on your residency application. Your time is far better spent finding other ways to get into medical school that don't require spending the next 4-7 years working on a PhD. The fact that you may want to do something competitive shouldn't be a reason to consider a PhD. I would recommend pursing a PhD only to someone who enjoys research and wants a PhD.

Of course you shouldn't get a PhD if you don't actually enjoy research, that goes without saying (or so I thought) and wasn't what I was suggesting (which is why I had said that it's an option for someone who enjoys research). One of the reasons the most competitive fields value a research background so highly is because you're expected to engage in research during residency and fellowship in the very least, and many continue it throughout their career. If someone honestly doesn't like research to begin with, I doubt they'd be considering the PhD option in the first place and probably also wouldn't be that interested in the specialties we're discussing, either as research would be a turn off for both. I think you missed my original point that, which was that for a select subset of people (and only for a select subset of people), a PhD does make sense...what my original objection to was to the claim that a PhD doesn't help anyone in applying to medical school and is universally a bad alternative to medicine if that door has been closed to you. In my very first response I had agreed that yes, a PhD was a bad choice for the majority of med school hopefuls. My point was that you can't make universal statements that one path is wrong for all people....for someone who was going to do a MD/PhD anyway but when they first apply can't get into med school (but can get into a PhD program) then it's frankly a waste of time NOT to start to PhD portion.

 

[NFkappaB]

I want to reiterate that I did not do Ph.D just to get into medical school.

In my undergraduate, I had a passion for research, accumulating in 3 published research. When I was waitlisted during my first cycle, I did not hesitate to go do a masters because I truly enjoyed research. Likewise, when i got waitlisted again when I applied in my 2nd year of masters, I didn't mind doing a Ph.D because I enjoyed my time doing masters and thought AS A BONUS, this Ph.D will help me get into a specialist practice.

However, I had absolutely no idea that once I got that Ph.D, my career options were so limited. I went into depression for 3 months because my wife left me because of my lack of financial stability and job security, partly explaining why it took me 3 cycles to get in after my Ph.D completion.

All of my peers and colleague are in the exact same boat. All of them are doing post-doc making no more than 38,000$ a year. I honestly would not know how I would survive if I had not gotten into medicine.

 

[Tippyboat]

A Ph.D. in a science field does seem to not open many doors for you, but post graduate studies can't all be generalized as the same. For example, with a Ph.D. degree in math or engineering, where there are way more applications, people are usually recruited before they even graduate and have so many options to do what they enjoy AND make money.

 

[nebratu]

simpsons did it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XViCOAu6UC0

 

[Perrotfish]

This is not true if you do grad school in engineering.

In most engineering fields a Masters is pretty dubious in terms of increasing your value, and a PhD is just about useless. That's not to say a PhD in engineering is unemployable, they're just not much more employable than someone with a bachelors in engineering. Employers mainly want you to have your BS, lots of work exeperience (intern or co-op, even if you are premed, BTW), and ideally your PE license. I guess if you want tenure engineering is probably your best bet (since most people will just work for industry, whereas all the literary PhDs are pretty much stuck waiting for a spot to open) but I still wouldn't call grad school a good option.

 

[austinap]

As a Ph.D with 3 post-docs and 8 publications (2 in high-impact journals) under my belt, I can attest that everything these students, post-docs, scientists, and professors say are true.

8 first author pubs? Or 8 total pubs? Also, why the hell did you do three post-docs? Two post-docs looks bad, three is insane.

Look people are going to be bitter everywhere. If you don't like research, don't do it. Especially don't do it for **10** years after undergrad.

It's true that most people going into grad school won't be able to get academic positions, but you're making things out to be far more doom and gloom than they really are. Industrial jobs aren't as bad as you're making them sound. They're somewhat competitive, yes, but most people are able to pull something off. I don't know of anybody from our lab that has been unable to find work, and well paying work at that. In the last year, we sent three post-docs on to top academic positions, one started a biotech, and the other three got jobs, all paying over $100k/yr. If you really like science, you're reasonably smart, and you're willing to put in the work, you can still do quite well in science.


I also have no idea where you're at that you're claiming the average postdocs are 40-50 yrs old. I call BS. Our oldest current postdoc is 33. The oldest I've ever seen was approaching 40, and the average is right around 30.

 

[murfettie]

My husband has a job. Assistant professor.
He had this job for a little over 2 years now and he's turning 30 this year. He is very very lucky.
However, he turned down TWO six figure + jobs in cities like boston, and houston, after getting his phD, for an assistant professor job in the south. In a place neither of us like at all, nor does our families.

More than anything, I feel lied to, and our agreement violated. We agreed to find a good place to live, and maybe close to our families. I would do the same by applying for med schools at certain locations and reapply again if I didn't get into those particular schools.

I made it clear that I do not want to deal with a lot of this academia stuff. My whole family are in the profession of teaching, secondary schools and universities. Half of my aunts have PhDs and they all work on wall street now because academia just doesn't pay the mortgage.

I feel like being dragged into an academic tar pit he promised to not drag me into.

I'm sorry about your situation. This is how this whole thing feels from a wife's perspective.
I know my husband is already very lucky to have such a job at such a young age, and it pays decent, but factors such a distance/location, immobility places enormous strains as well.

For medicine, everything is for a few years. A few years later you are mobile again, but a professor...

 

[austinap]

Can I just say science people are insane?
My husband turned down TWO, two six figure jobs in cities like boston, and houston, after getting his phD, for an assistant professor job in the south. In a place neither of us like at all, nor does our families.

I feel lied to because we had discussed this before, and he said living in a desirable location close to our families are important. I would only apply to med schools in those locations as well.

What is so freaking awesome for working 80 Hr week and making 60K a year as an assistant professor?
Bleh...
I honestly, secretly hope he doesn't get tenure since he's barely 30. Those jobs are still open to him. If he's stuck in the south forever. I might leave him

...you might want to talk to your husband. Not all science people are insane, just a lot of the folk that want to become professors.

 

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