My 4 Year Schedule @ West Point

[NeverQuit]

I'm entering the United States Military Academy at West Point this summer.
Long story short: If you want to be a Life Science major you need to prepare for taking a lot of classes prior to your senior year.

Below is a list of courses that I've constructed, I plan to take my MCAT after my Cow (Junior) year.
Any advice on how I can better restructure this schedule will be appreciated.

LEGEND:
Red = Overload Class (more than 5 courses in one term)
Green = Required by West Point to be taken at this term
Italicized = Science Course
Purple = every cadet is REQUIRED to take 3 engineering courses

2009-2010 // First Semester
Math Modeling/Intro to Calculus
Chemistry I
English Composition
US History
General Psychology

2009-2010 // Second Semester
Calculus I
Chemistry II
Literature
US History
Intro to Computing and Information Technology
Intro to Biology (Overload)

2010-2011 // First Semester
Calculus II
Physics I
Foreign Language
Economics
Physical Geography
Human Physiology (Overload)

2010-2011 // Second Semester
Prob & Stats
Physics II
Foreign Language
Political Science
Philosophy
Intro to Cell Biology (Overload)

2011-2012 // First Semester
Intro to Analytical Chemistry
Theory/Prac Mil IT Sys
International Relations
Microbiology
Organic Chemistry I
Individual Research I (Overload)

2011-2012 // Second Semester
Engineering Course I
Advanced Composition
Military Leadership
Organic Chemistry II
Biochemistry
Individual Research II (Overload)

2012-2013 // First Semester
Engineering Course II
Military History
Genetics
Biological Psychology

2012-2013 // Second Semester
Engineering Course III
Military History
Constitutional and Military Law
Methods & Apps of Biotech


As you can see, I'm trying to fit a hell of a lot before my senior year in hopes of a great looking application/MCAT.



Thoughts?

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[starfishprime]

Thoughts?

Are you dense?

Why the hell would you go to a service academy if you aspired to anything other than line officer? Because you're a fool, is why.

 

[NeverQuit]

Are you dense?

Why the hell would you go to a service academy if you aspired to anything other than line officer? Because you're a fool, is why.

I plan on becoming a career army doctor.

 

[WhizoMD]

looks like a manageable schedule
But could you take Analytical Chemistry during one of the 2012-2013 semesters? It seems like a bit much to have organic + analytical chem, along with microbio and new research.

 

[newdoc2013]

I plan on becoming a career army doctor.

That schedule looks heavy. You're going to be busy.

What is the service requirement after graduation from West Point? Make sure medical school is even an option.

 

[Beta Cell]

I'm entering the United States Military Academy at West Point this summer.
Long story short: If you want to be a Life Science major you need to prepare for taking a lot of classes prior to your senior year.

Below is a list of courses that I've constructed, I plan to take my MCAT after my Cow (Junior) year.
Any advice on how I can better restructure this schedule will be appreciated.

LEGEND:
Red = Overload Class (more than 5 courses in one term)
Green = Required by West Point to be taken at this term
Italicized = Science Course
Purple = every cadet is REQUIRED to take 3 engineering courses

2009-2010 // First Semester
Math Modeling/Intro to Calculus
Chemistry I
English Composition
US History
General Psychology

2009-2010 // Second Semester
Calculus I
Chemistry II
Literature
US History
Intro to Computing and Information Technology
Intro to Biology (Overload)

2010-2011 // First Semester
Calculus II
Physics I
Foreign Language
Economics
Physical Geography
Human Physiology (Overload)

2010-2011 // Second Semester
Prob & Stats
Physics II
Foreign Language
Political Science
Philosophy
Intro to Cell Biology (Overload)

2011-2012 // First Semester
Intro to Analytical Chemistry
Theory/Prac Mil IT Sys
International Relations
Microbiology
Organic Chemistry I
Individual Research I (Overload)

2011-2012 // Second Semester
Engineering Course I
Advanced Composition
Military Leadership
Organic Chemistry II
Biochemistry
Individual Research II (Overload)

2012-2013 // First Semester
Engineering Course II
Military History
Genetics
Biological Psychology

2012-2013 // Second Semester
Engineering Course III
Military History
Constitutional and Military Law
Methods & Apps of Biotech


As you can see, I'm trying to fit a hell of a lot before my senior year in hopes of a great looking application/MCAT.



Thoughts?

6 classes at once is a lot to be repeatedly doing.

 

[GeraldMonroe]

NeverQuit : here's why you are making a mistake.

Right now, you want to be a career army doctor. That's a laudable goal. But choosing to go to West Point rather than another college means you are now forced to become either a career army doctor, or you'll have to pay your time back as a line officer.

You're just out of high school - you've never seen the dark and seedy underbelly of the military. You've probably done high school ROTC, and heard stories swapped around by veterans. What you don't realize is that there are many, many, many negatives to the military that you won't understand until you're forced to experience them for yourself.

Trouble is, your choice to go to West Point, again, means you're forced to stay the course for the rest of most of your working lifespan if you choose to go to medical school after.

Consider - you'll owe 4 years from West point. You'll owe 4 years for medical school HPSP. If you choose any residency/medical specialty but one that has a short residency (or you are lucky enough to get a civilian deferment), you'll owe another couple years for residency. So, about 11 years from today you'll have to pay back about 10 years of service.

That means you're signing roughly two decades of your life away. Unless, of course, you give up on going to med school and just do the 4 years you'll owe from West Point - then you're signing away 8 years.

The military isn't all bad. But nearly any contract where you sign your bargaining power and freedom away is a bad deal, period. You're screwing yourself over, and that's final. I don't care if you're the son of an admiral and would be on the fast track to flag rank - you're still throwing away an enormous number of options by doing this.

Consider - if you went to state college instead of West point, you'll owe a little bit of money in student loans (but it'll have less value than 4 years of your time). You'll then have CHOICE about where and when to go to medical school - unlike the west point deal, where if you don't get in the first try, you'll be stuck being a line officer. After medical school, you'll have many more choices for residency. In many competitive specialties, the military match is more competitive than the civilian match, although it fluctuates randomly from year to year.

After residency, THEN you could sign away for the minimum 2-4 year term as an army officer and find out if you like it. But, you have a CHOICE. You could serve in the National Guard instead for a few years, figure out why the military is bad, and choose something else.

Choices are huge - the military isn't all bad, it's that nearly everything bad or good that happens to you in the next 20 years of your life will be beyond your control. You're completely helpless if the government decides to cut your pay and benefits, or decides to assign you too many patients, or assign you to the middle of nowhere without your family, or decides to fight a pointless war, or just decides that you need to fill out a ream of worthless paperwork every day.

As a civilian, you can go get another job if you don't like the pay, and as a doctor, there are far more job openings than physicians to fill them. You can move where-ever you like in the United States, limited only by funds, and bring anyone you want. You can turn the TV off when a minor war you don't agree with is being fought. You can hire someone else to do your paperwork for you (in the military they assign you staff, you can't hire or fire anyone) or again, find a better job.

Without choices, you'll just be a victim for the next 20 years of your life. Nearly every good thing that happens to you won't be your doing, and you'll have to sit and watch helplessly as people above you debate your fate. Have fun.

 

[Beta Cell]

NeverQuit : here's why you are making a mistake.

Right now, you want to be a career army doctor. That's a laudable goal. But choosing to go to West Point rather than another college means you are now forced to become either a career army doctor, or you'll have to pay your time back as a line officer.

You're just out of high school - you've never seen the dark and seedy underbelly of the military. You've probably done high school ROTC, and heard stories swapped around by veterans. What you don't realize is that there are many, many, many negatives to the military that you won't understand until you're forced to experience them for yourself.

Trouble is, your choice to go to West Point, again, means you're forced to stay the course for the rest of most of your working lifespan if you choose to go to medical school after.

Consider - you'll owe 4 years from West point. You'll owe 4 years for medical school HPSP. If you choose any residency/medical specialty but one that has a short residency (or you are lucky enough to get a civilian deferment), you'll owe another couple years for residency. So, about 11 years from today you'll have to pay back about 10 years of service.

That means you're signing roughly two decades of your life away. Unless, of course, you give up on going to med school and just do the 4 years you'll owe from West Point - then you're signing away 8 years.

The military isn't all bad. But nearly any contract where you sign your bargaining power and freedom away is a bad deal, period. You're screwing yourself over, and that's final. I don't care if you're the son of an admiral and would be on the fast track to flag rank - you're still throwing away an enormous number of options by doing this.

Consider - if you went to state college instead of West point, you'll owe a little bit of money in student loans (but it'll have less value than 4 years of your time). You'll then have CHOICE about where and when to go to medical school - unlike the west point deal, where if you don't get in the first try, you'll be stuck being a line officer. After medical school, you'll have many more choices for residency. In many competitive specialties, the military match is more competitive than the civilian match, although it fluctuates randomly from year to year.

After residency, THEN you could sign away for the minimum 2-4 year term as an army officer and find out if you like it. Yes, you won't get quite as many benefits - but the civilian world offers a lot more money that more than makes up for that, especially for someone in a high paying specialty.

Why would he owe time for residency? Residency pays you.

 

[ngkats]

looks like a manageable schedule
But could you take Analytical Chemistry during one of the 2012-2013 semesters? It seems like a bit much to have organic + analytical chem, along with microbio and new research.

Yeah, I agree that analytical chem + organic chem is not the best combo. Plus, it seems that taking an analytical chem course without organic already behind you wouldn't make much sense from a knowledge point of view.

Perhaps Westpoint allow it concurrently, but I always figured you'd need a solid year coursework of inorganic and organic chem before you step into Analytical land. At least this was the case at my ugrad.

EDIT: I just re-checked your schedule. Maybe the analytical chem course is an intro course? But course names with "intro" in them are often deceiving. I think my undergrad put "intro" before many science course names simply due to the fact that they were undergraduate courses. In other words, its a disclaimer they use to let undergrads know that they only scratched the surface of a particular discipline. My organic chem class was named "elementary organic chemistry." It didn't seem so elementary to me.

 

[GeraldMonroe]

Why would he owe time for residency? Residency pays you.

If you do a military residency, you owe additional time. The formula's a little complex, and you don't always owe additional time, but you often end up owing it. Especially if you did a residency that is long.

You can try to do a civilian residency - but the military only has a few slots for a "civilian deferment" for each specialty.

Anyways, it's all on the military med forums. Don't take my word for it, I've never been in military medicine. However, everything I said about choice : trust me, I've been there and lived it. You don't want any of what they're selling.

It's a life, but you can't make what you want happen in your life because you're shackled to an institution that dominates every aspect of your existence. Want to live in a custom house? Forget it, you won't live somewhere long enough to be worth the investment. Want to take 6 months off and vacation in Europe? Forget it. Want to sleep with your secretary? Forget it, that's fraternization and possibly adultery. Want to do Doctor's Without Borders? In general, that's a negative unless you beg The Man to let you do it. Want to sail a yacht in the Carribbean, or fly your own airplane? Uhh, no, you can't afford it.

Nobody has total freedom, but the amount someone has as a board certified civilian doc is incomparably higher than the same position in the military.

If you want a roughing-it adventure, go hike in the wilderness in a national park and bring a cute girlfriend along. Trust me, it's infinitely more enjoyable than camping in the desert with the military in a canvas tent with 50 other men who haven't bathed in a week. If you want to play with weapons, go to a shooting range that lets you rent full-auto weapons. Trust me, you'll get far more trigger time than you ever will in the military, where they give you about 50 rounds total and make you wait in line to fire your rifle. If you want to experience a foreign country, go to Eastern Europe on your own dime. Trust me, you'll enjoy it a ton more.

 

[Van Chowder]

First off I would like to say congratulations on your acceptance to WP. It seems that people do not kknow that in some cases it is more difficult to get into there than ANY ivy league.

With that said, the above posters have very good points.. and to some it all up for you, your life as you know it is over. Your undergrad experience is one of the last where you can trully be you, and have fun!! After that its med school residency and long hours.

WP in itself is far more structured than many, most , ( all) undergrad institutions with the exception of other military academies. On top of that your course load exemplifies lunacy. I hope having fun was never a hobby of yours..

Credibility: Father was a US Navy seal ----> MD saying it ( becoming a seal) was the worst decision of his life. ( Graduated from Annapolis).

 

[acridknight]

OP, don't listen to the bashing from some of these posters. I presume that you decided to go through all of the hoops to get into WP b/c you wanted to go there and you knew what being at WP and going into the military entails. That being said, I will only comment on the school workload.

Undergrad schools have their own unique rigor when it comes workload. I had a friend who graduated from a top 5 engineering school, and taking more than 12-13 credit hrs of engineering work easily put him over 50hrs studying/ prep work each week. (He was an engineering major to begin with, so he took more than 3 courses over the 4 yrs.)

It'll all depend on the rigor of your courses you mentioned and what WP expects of you in the courses. It being WP, though, I would presume that they're quite serious and expect a lot from you. If so, I would recommend that you don't take more than, say, 14 credit hours total (unless of course you already have a strong college-level science background from AP or IB courses in high school). Another option is if you can delay your graduation to reduce your workload; in non-military colleges you can delay it 1-2 semesters (or more). Your undergrad GPA is a very important metric for med schools, so you want to keep that as high as possible. (3.7 or higher is the sweet spot.)

Congrats on WP. Also, don't lock your plans down now. You're interested in MilMed, so do well on the science courses, MCAT, etc, but also remember to keep your interests and options open. Maybe you'll find that you really want to be an officer... or maybe Military dentistry will be better for you.

Good luck!

 

[nick_carraway]

It might be more appropriate to talk to/email an advisor at West Point about your course load. While we can only comment on the quantity, they can comment on the details of each course.

Also, you are all giving the OP good advice but it is futile advice at this juncture. The OP has already chosen to attend West Point and most likely rescinded his offers at other schools. Even if your advice has caused second thoughts, there's not much the OP can do.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

First off I would like to say congratulations on your acceptance to WP. It seems that people do not kknow that in some cases it is more difficult to get into there than ANY ivy league.

With that said, the above posters have very good points.. and to some it all up for you, your life as you know it is over. Your undergrad experience is one of the last where you can trully be you, and have fun!! After that its med school residency and long hours.

WP in itself is far more structured than many, most , ( all) undergrad institutions with the exception of other military academies. On top of that your course load exemplifies lunacy. I hope having fun was never a hobby of yours..

Credibility: Father was a US Navy seal ----> MD saying it ( becoming a seal) was the worst decision of his life. ( Graduated from Annapolis).

Your dad hated being a Seal, or just hated the military aspect of it (no control over where he was sent or what he was doing)?

I ask because my brother is currently attempting to go to BUD/s.

 

[erskine]

like others have said, your schedule is going to be pretty tight during undergrad, but given your acceptance to westpoint, i'm pretty certain you have already proven your above-average ability to focus.

i think a lot of posters here sometimes forget that its possible to have goals in life that don't revolve around becoming a doctor. There's nothing wrong with finishing your residency in your 30s or 40s or whenever. But, i also suggest that you do leave your schedule open to change, just in case you want to take a different career path.

Good luck.

 

[silverhorse84]

First of all, most of the people in this forum don't know the military. I'm not trying to offend any of the previous people who have posted, they did so trying to help, but unless they've been in the military or had close family in it, they don't understand. Try the military medicine forum, there's more people there.

There aren't many people who go from an academy to medical school, but it is done. I believe there will be several Naval Academy classmates with me next year, and a few West point, so it is done. I thought about doing Naval Academy and then decided against it because I wanted more freedom in my class schedule (just my personal choice).

Another piece of advise I'd give you is to contact USUHS. Explain your situation, and they may help find you a current medical student who went to Westpoint. That would be the best person to talk to: they know where you are, where you've been, and where you will be 😳

Just my $0.02

 

[NeverQuit]

Responding to everyone:

I do understand the rigors of West Point. I also understand the possibility of me NOT wanting to pursue a career in medicine after attending. In the case I find out that being a doc isn't for me you must understand: I'm going to WP to serve my country. Hell, I might end up as a helicopter pilot or on the front lines in Iraq, but for right now I'm trying to make a schedule for what I am currently interested in. I fully realize that if I do end up graduating from WP, attending medical school with the HSPS/USUHS option I will be locked into for the long haul-- and I'm okay with that.

Please comment on the WORK LOAD only; any other comments regarding WP/military I can field by PM, thanks.

There aren't many people who go from an academy to medical school, but it is done. I believe there will be several Naval Academy classmates with me next year, and a few West point, so it is done. I thought about doing Naval Academy and then decided against it because I wanted more freedom in my class schedule (just my personal choice).

15-20 Cadets (2%) are selected each year for medical school, I hope to be one of them.
Except, the odds arent actually THAT harsh. You have to be a Chemistry/Life Science/Chemical Engineering
Major to be one of those 15-20; there are only ~45ish students who take those majors annually.

If so, I would recommend that you don't take more than, say, 14 credit hours total (unless of course you already have a strong college-level science background from AP or IB courses in high school). Another option is if you can delay your graduation to reduce your workload; in non-military colleges you can delay it 1-2 semesters (or more).

This isn't possible. Every Cadet must graduate in 4 years. For example, the Life Science Major's required classes are here:
http://www.dean.usma.edu/sebpublic/curriccat/fos_details.cfm?fos_maj_cd=LSC0H&grad_yr=2012

So, what I've surmised so far is: Intro to Analytical Chem might be out of place?
I've often heard you should take Analytical Chemistry BEFORE the MCAT. If I take it in one of the 2012-2013 semesters it'd be too late.

 

[silverhorse84]

Just to kind of clarify, when I mentioned to try to get in touch with someone from USUHS who was at West Point, it wasn't to talk about whether or not you should do West Point, it was because, they likely did a similar schedule and can comment on it's difficulty. And whether it helped with medical school and all. 🙂

 

[NeverQuit]

Just to kind of clarify, when I mentioned to try to get in touch with someone from USUHS who was at West Point, it wasn't to talk about whether or not you should do West Point, it was because, they likely did a similar schedule and can comment on it's difficulty. And whether it helped with medical school and all. 🙂

That'd probably be harder to do than it sounds.

 

[WhizoMD]

I've often heard you should take Analytical Chemistry BEFORE the MCAT. If I take it in one of the 2012-2013 semesters it'd be too late.

You should only need the premed prereqs(gen chem, ochem, bio, physics), for the mcat.

 

[NeverQuit]

You should only need the premed prereqs(gen chem, ochem, bio, physics), for the mcat.

True, but wouldn't I be better prepared taking the Analytical Chemistry beforehand (as in it will help me score higher on the MCAT)?

 

[Ann Chovie]

Good Luck NeverQuit... Have you taken into account, in preparing your projected class schedule, all the extracurricular activity expected of you at West Point?

 

[nick_carraway]

True, but wouldn't I be better prepared taking the Analytical Chemistry beforehand (as in it will help me score higher on the MCAT)?

No. The chemistry on the MCAT is pretty basic.

 

[NeverQuit]

Good Luck NeverQuit... Have you taken into account, in preparing your projected class schedule, all the extracurricular activity expected of you at West Point?

Yes, I think this will help me be a stand-out applicant aswell 🙂.

 

[GeraldMonroe]

Yes, I think this will help me be a stand-out applicant aswell 🙂.

All wrong. You don't have to be hazed and grind away at either schoolwork or chores 16 hours a day for the next 4 years. It doesn't have to be a stressful, living hell.

You could be taking one of the easier premed majors (kinesiology or something), chilling out in a fraternity, enjoying a nice round of beers on a Friday night.

And you'd be in a vastly lower stress environment at a state school. With slightly over 50% girls, many of whom are both attractive and you might have a chance with. (versus the smaller percentage at West Point, the lack of privacy, and the strict rules against fraternization that mean you just might not be getting any for the next 4 years)

And, if you do medicine, all your sacrifice will be for nothing. You'll have been through this living hell, yet you'll have less options for residency than if you'd been a civilian. Once you complete your residency that has a higher probability of not being the one you want, you now owe all this time.

Debt to a student loan company is nothing compared to owing time. The new income based repayment means that you would owe 15% of your income for 10-25 years and your debt is cleared. Whatever your income happens to be. However much debt you end up owing. And you'd still be making more money after paying that 15% than you would in the military.

And if you want to serve, sign up after you're an attending physician, for just 4 years at a stretch.

 

[NeverQuit]

All wrong. You don't have to be hazed and grind away at either schoolwork or chores 16 hours a day for the next 4 years. It doesn't have to be a stressful, living hell.

You could be taking one of the easier premed majors (kinesiology or something), chilling out in a fraternity, enjoying a nice round of beers on a Friday night.

And you'd be in a vastly lower stress environment at a state school. With slightly over 50% girls, many of whom are both attractive and you might have a chance with. (versus the smaller percentage at West Point, the lack of privacy, and the strict rules against fraternization that mean you just might not be getting any for the next 4 years)

And, if you do medicine, all your sacrifice will be for nothing. You'll have been through this living hell, yet you'll have less options for residency than if you'd been a civilian. Once you complete your residency that has a higher probability of not being the one you want, you now owe all this time.

Debt to a student loan company is nothing compared to owing time. The new income based repayment means that you would owe 15% of your income for 10-25 years and your debt is cleared. Whatever your income happens to be. However much debt you end up owing. And you'd still be making more money after paying that 15% than you would in the military.

And if you want to serve, sign up after you're an attending physician, for just 4 years at a stretch.

All good points, but if it becomes too much for me, I can always opt out before my Cow (Junior) year. I believe this is the right path, and yeah its not glamorous. But in the end, I'll garner the respect that comes with attending a rigorous institution where it's tough.

 

[Pianoman32]

Why is everyone giving this guy so much crap about attending West Point? He has stated that he wants to make the military a career, regardless of whether or not he actually becomes a doctor. When it comes time for promotion, 9 times out of 10, the west point grad will get the nod over the rotc/ocs grad. It doesn't mean that the rotc grad is any lesser of an officer, it just means that the army is one huge bureaucracy.

If he decides in 2 years that the army is not for him, then he can very easily say bye, bye. Likewise, he will also find out if medicine is his calling and if military medicine is his calling.

I find it ironic that pre-meds talk so altruistic, but when it comes down to doing something that is actually selfless, they shy away. Yeah, when compared to being a civilian physician, some of the aspects of the military suck. But when you get over the worthless pt, outranking by nurses, the hurry up and wait bull****, the lower pay, and having to call a bathroom a latrine, it all comes down to truly wanting to make a difference. I personally would rather treat the 18 year old male who chose to fight for his country any day of the week than the 43 year old who was found on the street coked out of mind whose only real problem seems to be that he can't remember when he received his last welfare check.

 

[GeraldMonroe]

All good points, but if it becomes too much for me, I can always opt out before my Cow (Junior) year. I believe this is the right path, and yeah its not glamorous. But in the end, I'll garner the respect that comes with attending a rigorous institution where it's tough.

If you're a doctor, why would they respect you for that? Honest question. As far as I know, the "big wig" doctors garner the respect they do because they're typically academic physicians who have done research and published their findings. Sometimes they subspecialize in some treatment, and work hard at that for decades, becoming well known for being "the guy" for a particular problem.

I don't see how your time at West Point will count for anything on this kind of rating scale.

As for within the military : yeah, for the administrative and management tasks they assign high ranking medical officers to your West Point background might help at. Leadership of a disfunctional organization. Have fun.

(again, it's the same problem : if you want to be a manager, and you're a civilian and have the appropriate background to get into healthcare administration, you can choose between hundreds of institutions for one that works well. Join an innovative startup if you want. In the military, you have one option. Guess which way is likely to work out.)

Still, it looks like you'll have to go there for a year, since you've probably already turned down the offer made by your local state school. Please, please, try to see the place for what it is, and don't drink the kool-aid.

 

[NeverQuit]

If you're a doctor, why would they respect you for that? Honest question. As far as I know, the "big wig" doctors garner the respect they do because they're typically academic physicians who have done research and published their findings. Sometimes they subspecialize in some treatment, and work hard at that for decades, becoming well known for being "the guy" for a particular problem.

I don't see how your time at West Point will count for anything on this kind of rating scale.

As for within the military : yeah, for the administrative and management tasks they assign high ranking medical officers to your West Point background might help at. Leadership of a disfunctional organization. Have fun.

(again, it's the same problem : if you want to be a manager, and you're a civilian and have the appropriate background to get into healthcare administration, you can choose between hundreds of institutions for one that works well. Join an innovative startup if you want. In the military, you have one option. Guess which way is likely to work out.)

Still, it looks like you'll have to go there for a year, since you've probably already turned down the offer made by your local state school. Please, please, try to see the place for what it is, and don't drink the kool-aid.

*sigh* You really don't get it. I'm not doing it to be a "big wig".

 

[atomi]

-

 

[GeraldMonroe]

*sigh* You really don't get it. I'm not doing it to be a "big wig".

When you say "respect", that's what you mean.

Your route will accomplish one thing, and one thing only
It lets you more easily work your way up the ladder in the military to be a manager/ "leader"

Oh, except that the real leaders in the medical field are the ones who complete successful medical research. What matters more, an improve protocol for dealing with cerebral aneurysms or shaking hands to beg for more money for a military treatment facility? Which person has accomplished more? (I'm comparing an academic physician who makes a significant discovery or improvement to existing treatments versus a 1 star general who runs a military hospital)

West Point experience would help you with getting a civilian management/executive job as well - except you're locking yourself into a 2 decade commitment, so that will have to wait.

It won't help you serve our country - you're just a liability until you're an attending physician, and you could always sign up for military service starting from day 1 of being an attending. Yet there's a real possibility you'll grow to hate the military, and you'll be occupying a slot that someone who actually liked it could take.

It won't help you financially - as I mentioned, it's far better to owe 15% of your income for 10 to 25 years than it is to owe 8 to 10 full years of your career.

I think you're making a terrible decision. The problem is that you're committing to something for a massive chunk of your entire usable lifespan. It might work out, or it might not - but if things go sour over the next 2 decades, you're stuck.

20 years. With the country going broke fast, they will have to cut spending somewhere to reduce the level the national debt grows at.

 

[atomi]

-

 

[Sarg's kid]

OP, don't listen to the haters. If you know right now that you want to be a career Army doctor, then go for it. Your schedule looks tough, but doable.

When I interviewed at USUHS, there were a lot of academy folks there interviewing, and you know what? All of them were accepted. USUHS loves academy grads. (Now, this would obligate you to 7 years post residency PLUS whatever your West Point ADSO is, but all that means is that you won't be able to get out until you've been in for like 15 years. At which point, you'll be a Lt. Col and surfing the last 5 until you're eligible for retirement.)

There are a lot of people in this country that have no desire to serve in the military, but don't let them tell you that you're dumb for wanting to. You do what you feel you should and screw everybody else.

Good luck to you. (If you haven't already, come on over to the Military medicine forum. Leave the preallos to snipe at each other and come play with the grow ups.)

 

[GeraldMonroe]

I've said my piece. Good luck. I wouldn't wish your fate on anyone.

 

[GeraldMonroe]

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[Sarg's kid]

It won't help you serve our country - you're just a liability until you're an attending physician, and you could always sign up for military service starting from day 1 of being an attending. Yet there's a real possibility you'll grow to hate the military, and you'll be occupying a slot that someone who actually liked it could take.

It won't help you financially - as I mentioned, it's far better to owe 15% of your income for 10 to 25 years than it is to owe 8 to 10 full years of your career.

I think you're making a terrible decision. The problem is that you're committing to something for a massive chunk of your entire usable lifespan. It might work out, or it might not - but if things go sour over the next 2 decades, you're stuck.

20 years. With the country going broke fast, they will have to cut spending somewhere to reduce the level the national debt grows at.

What you fail to consider is MAYBE HE REALLY WILL ACTUALLY LIKE IT! And, yes, you give up raking in your fortune while pining away for the latest BMW convertible, BUT how would it feel to save the life of some 18 year old kid who put his ass on the line for his country? Some people would trade a few trinkets for the ability to do something truly meaningful for the most selfless of us.

Oh, and I love your argument that medical researchers are so noble and are the only ones who accomplish anything in their careers. I would bet that a fair number of your sainted research doctors are just as crooked as this guy.
At the end of the day, it is highly UNlikely that you will be the next Watson Crick and more likely that you'll end up some tool who is milking the pharma companies for every penny they can squeeze out of some drug that was discovered 20 years ago.

 

[Signaq]

OP, thank you for your sacrifice and service. I wish you all the best, and I'm sure you'll develop an academic schedule that supports your ultimate goals. 🙂

 

[Fiddlergirl]

I wanted to add my congratulations, OP. It sounds like you've put a lot of thought into your schedule, and there's been some good advice. Speaking as someone who has taken the HPSP scholarship (obligating me to do a military residency as well as military service afterwards)...don't listen to the people on this thread bashing the military. Both of us will have the chance to serve our country and make a difference - plus we have a chance at the awesome military residencies. Good luck.

 

[nick_carraway]

I just want to add that our previous fellow to one of the most competitive surgical fellowships in this country was a West Point grad who served in Panama and Iraq. He was selected from a pool of applicants simply because he looked fantastic on paper (so he was interviewed first) and had the yes sir, no sir, get things done attitude you'd expect from a military officer during his interview.

His first day--even before his first day of fellowship--he reorganized the staff, gave them radio mics and set up a giant white board to keep track of everyone in a nice way. He videotaped everything he had to learn and wrote them in his notebook at night; he never asked the same question twice.

I think this just proves that going to an academy means good things for your medical career becomes it develops you as a leader on and off the battlefield. You are well respected as an officer in the United States of America, you are respected as a doctor for your medical skills, and when it comes time to admit someone who you aren't quite sure about or a discliplined, organized West Point grad, I'm pretty sure that anyone in their right minds will choose the West Point grad every single time.

Good luck, OP!

 

[Caprica6]

Don't listen to the naysayers, many people on this site cannot understand why someone would aspire to be a career military doc, and too many people go the milmed route for the wrong reasons. You have noble aspirations in wanting to provide healthcare for those who protect and serve our country (its what I want to do as well). I think it is a good idea to plan your course schedule with medical school in mind, if you change your mind you change your mind. Regardless, you are going to be graduating an officer with a degree from an excellent school.

 

[LizzyM]

I'll add that a couple years back i interviewed an Annapolis grad who had served his time in the Navy and was applying as a non-trad. Turned down a fist full of offers including UCSD (as an OOS applicant) and Harvard to attend Hopkins.

The service academies are very tough for pre-meds but provide real leadership opportunities for real leaders.

The key is wanting to be in the service and to serve one's country and to serve the men and women who serve. It isn't like civilian life, you aren't going to be as rich as a civilian, you are going to deal with **** that civilian docs don't deal with but if you are attracted to the life, then that might be the right choice for the right reason.

 

[mrmandrake]

A family member of mine went to WP and got into UCSF for med school. Yea you gotta be in the top 50 of your class or so for them to pay for it. You will owe like 15+ years or something after you're done. He had a 4.0 GPA. Make sure you want it.

 

[riceman04]

looks like a manageable schedule
But could you take Analytical Chemistry during one of the 2012-2013 semesters? It seems like a bit much to have organic + analytical chem, along with microbio and new research.

I have a few friends who have graduated from West Point!

It is barely manageable considering the amount of time they supposedly spend in training outside of class time

 

[riceman04]

I'll add that a couple years back i interviewed an Annapolis grad who had served his time in the Navy and was applying as a non-trad. Turned down a fist full of offers including UCSD (as an OOS applicant) and Harvard to attend Hopkins.

The service academies are very tough for pre-meds but provide real leadership opportunities for real leaders.

The key is wanting to be in the service and to serve one's country and to serve the men and women who serve. It isn't like civilian life, you aren't going to be as rich as a civilian, you are going to deal with **** that civilian docs don't deal with but if you are attracted to the life, then that might be the right choice for the right reason.

👍

 

[atomi]

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[NoMoreAMCAS]

Again, what in the H**L are you talking about?

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the military commitment vs the burden of paying back loans as a civilian.

 

[DeadCactus]

West Point is a solid school. The topic of it being an expeditious route to medicine has been beat to death so I'll just assume you realize you're giving up some flexibility and control which makes things more difficult and poses a larger risk.

Looking at your schedule, I would advise not worrying about cramming all the science into the first three years. You need a solid GPA and a solid MCAT. As long as you have those two and will have the pre-reqs prior to matriculation, you're fine. Take as few classes as possible to graduate and meet the pre-reqs for the schools you're interested in and spread them out as thinly as possible. The one exception is making sure you have the classes which are key to the MCAT done before you take it.

I don't know what your degree requirements are nor what the pre-reqs for schools you're interested in are so I can't make specific suggestions. My advice is to do only what's required, do it extremely well, and use any time left over to do meaningful extracurricular stuff. Both your application to medical school and your own happiness will benefit...

 

[LizzyM]

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the military commitment vs the burden of paying back loans as a civilian.

I think that the phrase it's far better to owe 15% of your income for 10 to 25 years is raising eyebrows.

Aren't most loans a fixed dollar amount at a given interest rate (that may be a variable rate)? Is a percentage of income arrangement a current possibility? I can see some perverse incentives in such an arragement.

 

[NeverQuit]

I am truly thankful for those of you who have supported my decision. I just want everyone to know simply this about most incoming/outgoing academy Cadets:

1) We don't do it for the money or the glamor
2) We came for SELF respect, not to try to outshine an ROTC cadet for a leadership position or a higher pay grade
3) We came to be forged into leaders; in the (often) hell we call the United States Military Academy
4) Nobody LIKES attending the USMA; who likes to be disciplined?
5) We KNOW it's going to be hard; nothing worthwhile is easy
6) We have a strong desire to protect this nation
7) Looking back, we know we've grown and learned more in four years than can truly be measured
8) And yeah, we're "wannabe" doctors, lawyers, engineers, pilots, but we're SOLDIERS first.

 

[DeadCactus]

I will add one (rather lengthy) comment on the debate of whether it's a good idea.

There is not a single thing altruistic about attending a military academy. You are a student. Being a student is inherently a selfish thing; you are taking from society while offering only a promise to return something of value in the future. The altruism and service comes from actually serving in the military. This same service and altruism can be done by anyone from any school.

The point is that it's asinine for people to counter "the military academies are not the most expedient way to becoming a physician or even a military physician" with "well you selfish asshats just can't understand service". They are unrelated.

Attending an academy is simply the exchange of a more lax college experience for more comprehensive officer training and a paid education. The trade may or may not be a good one, but there is nothing selfless about it. The selflessness comes once you are actually serving. An act can be selfless, not a commitment or promise...