My classmates

[libertyyne]

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Do you think the distinction of whether the torrenting occurred on-campus or off-campus is important here? If someone commits an indecent act, the determinant of whether they deserve punishment is their discretion?

See unlike you I am not ascribing any morality to the act.

Here is an example:

Doing coke in your home
Doing coke infront of a police station in the open.

Who do you think is going to get caught? No matter what your take is on the morality of drugs or illegality of drugs, doing the second act is inherently idiotic.

My point was if you are stupid enough do illegal acts infront of people that can report you for those activities, you are opening yourself up to the ramifications not because of the immorality of what you are doing, rather because you are being idiotic. There is no logic, or morality to professionalism, rather rule following or the appearance of rule following. Even if you think the rules or laws are stupid you are still being reckless, and the ramification is for being reckless.

 

[sloop]

I think a distinction should also be made between whether or not an action is illegal or wrong and whether or not it’s appropriate for a random person to take it upon themselves to police that action.

I think that torrenting copyrighted material is wrong and certainly it is illegal. That said, I also think that the random third party people who report this behavior to authorities are being jerks. Even if one can make a justification for doing it, in practice this type of reporting seems to generally be a marker of either simply being a jerk or having a personality disorder.

I guess what I’m saying is that I might have trouble justifying that reporting someone for doing something you believe is wrong or unethical is the wrong thing to do. Still, reporting people for relatively minor transgressions with indirect impacts (as opposed to assault, robbery, stealing someone’s bag as they’re waiting for the bus, etc.), seems to generally happen in the context of an exaggerated sense of morality and justice that is likely to be socially problematic in a variety of ways.

 

[ThrowawayShmoaway]

That said, I also think that the random third party people who report this behavior to authorities are being jerks. Even if one can make a justification for doing it, in practice this type of reporting seems to generally be a marker of either simply being a jerk or having a personality disorder.

But nobody is disagreeing with this. I think most people here actually agree with this point. I think the point is more that we sometimes don't know who the actual jerks around us are (until they do something jerk-like), so don't be stupid enough to do something illegal/reportable/"unprofessional" around people you barely know.

 

[raiderette]

I had a very successful 3rd year and am planning a research year due to an unexpected high risk pregnancy. I found friends in unexpected places. I found allies based on competency over class. Truthfully this year has surprised me with the level of support I have received.

 

[mcat_taker]

Reading about what happened to OP. Wow. Can't see this ever happening in my class. We all used to share resources with one another and with younger/older classes and try and help each other out as best we could. Med schools is hard enough. If you wanted to pay for all your own stuff then you were more than welcome to! I certainly paid for a lot of my own resources just because I felt it was good quality and whoever produced it deserved my money but I would never care what anyone else did.

 

[atomi]

Reading about what happened to OP. Wow. Can't see this ever happening in my class. We all used to share resources with one another and with younger/older classes and try and help each other out as best we could. Med schools is hard enough. If you wanted to pay for all your own stuff then you were more than welcome to! I certainly paid for a lot of my own resources just because I felt it was good quality and whoever produced it deserved my money but I would never care what anyone else did.

Some schools have you sign an honor code where you are obligated to report professionalism issues such as cheating and intellectual property theft.

 

[solitarius]

YMMV as it really depends on what school you go to.

I can totally see this type of this happening at my school. These types of antics happen all the time!

 

[7331poas]

If your honor code includes "participates in class", it seems ridiculous that some believe that you "deserve" to be reported because you were "dumb"/audacious enough to Anki in the back of class and ended up being seen by a classmate.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

Back to the original question: does anyone actually like their classmates?

My class has a couple gunners, every class does, but generally we’re all in this together and while there’s some cliques I don’t really care to hang out with, I don’t hate anyone.

My class is pretty dope too. My school, in general, has a really supportive community. There’s the odd A-hole here and there but nothing major.

 

[libertyyne]

If your honor code includes "participates in class", it seems ridiculous that some believe that you "deserve" to be reported because you were "dumb"/audacious enough to Anki in the back of class and ended up being seen by a classmate.

if the honor code says not to anki and to participate in a small group. You better not be anki-ing obviously infront of everyone else. Have you been reported for doing something that you felt was unfair? The reality of medical school is no one gives a **** if it is fair or not, if your administration says not to do it on school time you dont do it on school time, or do it without alerting the world. There is always going to be some a-hole with an axe to grind or an agenda to push. No reason to put yourself at the mercy of that person. And if you do put yourself at the mercy of some a-hole then you wont get a sympathetic ear from me. You made the idiotic decision of breaking the rules and announcing it to the world, and now you have to deal with the consequences of breaking said rules.

 

[RNthenDoc]

Take a sample size of 180.

Even out of a group of smart, driven, well-intentioned Med students... there’s still gonna’ be some jerks. It’s just math.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

This is the dumbest take I have ever seen on this site.

Just because something is "illegal" doesnt mean you deserve blowback. That is a very low level take on morality.

If your classmate saw you driving over the speed limit on the way into school, that does not mean he should report that to the administration. It also does not mean the administrators should enforce a professionalism inquiry into your behavior on the basis that you have a wanton disregard for human life and safety.

Situational ethics. Disturbing

 

[mcat_taker]

if the honor code says not to anki and to participate in a small group. You better not be anki-ing obviously infront of everyone else. Have you been reported for doing something that you felt was unfair? The reality of medical school is no one gives a **** if it is fair or not, if your administration says not to do it on school time you dont do it on school time, or do it without alerting the world. There is always going to be some a-hole with an axe to grind or an agenda to push. No reason to put yourself at the mercy of that person. And if you do put yourself at the mercy of some a-hole then you wont get a sympathetic ear from me. You made the idiotic decision of breaking the rules and announcing it to the world, and now you have to deal with the consequences of breaking said rules.

Look I don't think that anyone disagrees here that if there are rules and you knowingly break those rules then yea thats your fault if you get in trouble. It's more a question here of whether your classmates should be reporting low-level actions like that that have no bearing on their own education or life. Frankly I find it disturbing that another student would actually report stuff like that and that they don't have better things to do with their time. I'm glad I don't have a class like the one that OP describes.

 

[libertyyne]

Look I don't think that anyone disagrees here that if there are rules and you knowingly break those rules then yea thats your fault if you get in trouble. It's more a question here of whether your classmates should be reporting low-level actions like that that have no bearing on their own education or life. Frankly I find it disturbing that another student would actually report stuff like that and that they don't have better things to do with their time. I'm glad I don't have a class like the one that OP describes.

I cant control the behavior of other people. The only behavior I can control is mine. Maybe it was the autistic kid in your class or someone who you wronged in some way.

 

[KeikoTanaka]

My whole school is set up so my classmates and I are not competing against each other, we're curved against last years class. It's an interesting model... I didn't like it at first, but maybe they're onto something. It has resulted in all of us being very supportive of each other. We post every resource we can find into a school wide student class page to help each other out. Sorry about your experiences.

 

[7331poas]

Our class has a Google drive we use to spread content and resources. Technically even discussing a Uworld question is a violation of their TOS. I fundamentally disagree with the idea that violating a "rule" of this nature automatically puts you in the wrong. That is low level ethics.

 

[libertyyne]

Our class has a Google drive we use to spread content and resources. Technically even discussing a Uworld question is a violation of their TOS. I fundamentally disagree with the idea that violating a "rule" of this nature automatically puts you in the wrong. That is low level ethics.

Because TOS of some software vs the law vs code of conduct of your school is exactly the same.

 

[Lucca]

Lmao how did I miss this thread. What a classic

 

[7331poas]

Because TOS of some software vs the law vs code of conduct of your school is exactly the same.

The TOS violation is a civil law violation and a judicious code of conduct would cover that behavior.

 

[libertyyne]

The TOS violation is a civil law violation and a judicious code of conduct would cover that behavior.

Yes, because that is exactly like criminal law and Code of conduct. Dude you can be bitter about this all you want.The point is protect yourself.If you are doing rule breaking infront of people that can report you, be prepared to face the consequences. Its a very simple concept. If you are going to speed infront of a cop be prepared to get pulled over. If you are going to break the TOS of a software and are posting it on twitter be prepared to have your access to that software revoked. This is how the real world works, medicine is no different.

 

[MSTP18]

Just want to throw it out there that as a resident, a resident in another specialty reported me to the hospital for "a patient safety violation" because I followed not only, my clinical judgement, my attending's judgment, our hospital's policy, but also the guidelines by my specialty's society based on numerous high quality papers and thus didn't perform a test they wanted me to do. This required my attending AND the division chief of the relevant subspecialty to write a response about how I was right and the other resident was wrong. Let that sink in for all the posters shocked at the "audacity" of someone "going out of their way" to report something that is *actually* against the rules.

 

[sloop]

Just want to throw it out there that as a resident, a resident in another specialty reported me to the hospital for "a patient safety violation" because I followed not only, my clinical judgement, my attending's judgment, our hospital's policy, but also the guidelines by my specialty's society based on numerous high quality papers and thus didn't perform a test they wanted me to do. This required my attending AND the division chief of the relevant subspecialty to write a response about how I was right and the other resident was wrong. Let that sink in for all the posters shocked at the "audacity" of someone "going out of their way" to report something that is *actually* against the rules.

Unfortunate as it is, at a lot of places the event reporting system becomes weaponized in part because it’s often the only meaningful way to address a variety of HR concerns. Some of this stuff has nothing to do with patient safety but are matters of professionalism, perceived antagonism, etc. The situation you describe seems dumb as hell but it is nowhere near as bad as some of things the reporting system is used for.

 

[7331poas]

Just want to throw it out there that as a resident, a resident in another specialty reported me to the hospital for "a patient safety violation" because I followed not only, my clinical judgement, my attending's judgment, our hospital's policy, but also the guidelines by my specialty's society based on numerous high quality papers and thus didn't perform a test they wanted me to do. This required my attending AND the division chief of the relevant subspecialty to write a response about how I was right and the other resident was wrong. Let that sink in for all the posters shocked at the "audacity" of someone "going out of their way" to report something that is *actually* against the rules.

You deserved it for making that decision in the public's eye.

 

[MSTP18]

Unfortunate as it is, at a lot of places the event reporting system becomes weaponized in part because it’s often the only meaningful way to address a variety of HR concerns. Some of this stuff has nothing to do with patient safety but are matters of professionalism, perceived antagonism, etc. The situation you describe seems dumb as hell but it is nowhere near as bad as some of things the reporting system is used for.

I'm sure there are far worse uses of the reporting systems. My point was more to tell the people clutching their pearls over the fact that someone "went out of their way" to report OP for doing something *literally illegal* to shut it.

 

[MSTP18]

You deserved it for making that decision in the public's eye.

Actually, I didn't get to go as public as I wanted to. I wanted to drop a note in the chart explaining *exactly* why the test wasn't indicated (including references) not only on its own, but even more so because the resident who wrote me up acknowledged that he was going to treat the patient the same way regardless of the results of the test. Unfortunately the attending didn't want me to. Would have preferred to immortalize the moment but alas, there's no record of the interaction anywhere outside of the internal reporting system.

I know you're just trying to be snarky and don't actually care about my response. Sorry that your unconscious is struggling with the fact that on the one hand, you don't think what you're doing is actually morally wrong, but on the other hand, you know you are "in the wrong" because you are violating rules of society.

 

[Psai]

Just want to throw it out there that as a resident, a resident in another specialty reported me to the hospital for "a patient safety violation" because I followed not only, my clinical judgement, my attending's judgment, our hospital's policy, but also the guidelines by my specialty's society based on numerous high quality papers and thus didn't perform a test they wanted me to do. This required my attending AND the division chief of the relevant subspecialty to write a response about how I was right and the other resident was wrong. Let that sink in for all the posters shocked at the "audacity" of someone "going out of their way" to report something that is *actually* against the rules.

I would give as good as I got

 

[lalalallala]

My number one pet peeve is when people have an issue with something you did and then they go talk to someone other than you about it. If someone has an issue with you torrenting a book, then they should tell you that they either want you to stop or else they feel like they need to report it. Going out of their way to snitch on their classmates without speaking to the classmate is ridiculous. There are things that are said amongst friends that have the expectation of staying amongst friends.