My Rant Against Med School Admissions

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TheMightySmiter said:
How come nobody bitches about intellectually gifted people getting a better shot at med school? No one chooses their innate intelligence either.
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Because you can get a high MCAT and GPA by working. I know plenty of frighteningly smart people who have **** GPAs. You can't change your heritage just by working really really hard at it (as far as i know).
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chelala said:
I know that to some people in this thread and on this forum, this may seem simple. What we are seeing now in our present time is the breakdown of the Afr American family. This was exactly the goal. Black slaves were BRED to make "better" slaves, their children were sold, raped, and bred again. Over and over. I wish all of you would take a Black history course or something to that effect.

Apparently to all of you, after the Civil War, Blacks had all the opportunities in the world and don't start protesting until 1950's. Many of you forget that our parents, yes, ONE GENERATION had to deal with being called n***ers, being told that they would not and could not learn anything because they were black, and being subject to other emotional, psychological, and physical abuse.

Some of you live in a bubble.
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Black people are not the only victims of racial prejudice. I know plenty of Indians, Arabs, all types of groups called horibble things as well. No one gave those people a leg up in American society. Why not?

And this idea that Africa does not have a deep cultural tradition is ludicrous. That's not the point of this thread. Civilization itself emerged from African kingdoms.
 
runawayclock said:
Because you can get a high MCAT and GPA by working. I know plenty of frighteningly smart people who have **** GPAs. You can't change your heritage just by working really really hard at it (as far as i know).
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Michael Jackson went from a black man, to a white woman. With hard work, one can change their heritage.
 
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thamsenman said:
Black people are not the only victims of racial prejudice. I know plenty of Indians, Arabs, all types of groups called horibble things as well. No one gave those people a leg up in American society. Why not?

And this idea that Africa does not have a deep cultural tradition is ludicrous. That's not the point of this thread. Civilization itself emerged from African kingdoms.
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Apart from Native Americans (or did you mean South Asian Indian), the other groups you mentioned were fairly recent. And there is also the issue of voluntary immigration in those groups, seeking the American dream. For Afr American, we talking four centuries of slavery, then another century of fighting for opportunity, and equality.

Pre 9/11, I think many Arabs were doing fine, and may have been assumed to be caucasian
 
yearn4ivy said:
Apart from Native Americans (or did you mean South Asian Indian), the other groups you mentioned were fairly recent. And there is also the issue of voluntary immigration in those groups, seeking the American dream. For Afr American, we talking four centuries of slavery, then another century of fighting for opportunity, and equality.

Pre 9/11, I think many Arabs were doing fine, and may have been assumed to be caucasian
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Recent? Really? Like my friend's dad in the early 70s, an Indian surgeon, who couldn't get anyone to hire him because they weren't comfortable with a "Hindu" or someone who was brown-skinned and had an accent. He had to leave Chicago, and go find somewhere else to practice because no one would judge him on his merits, but only his personal attributes. Denied tenure at a very respected university because there were too many qualified white applicants looking for jobs.

He's published in textbooks, journals, and is one of the most technically skilled surgeons I ever met. But that wasn't good enough. He didn't even get color-blind treatment.

You'd be surprised the stories you'd hear if you looked hard enough. Or cared to.
 
thamsenman said:
Recent? Really? Like my friend's dad in the early 70s, an Indian surgeon, who couldn't get anyone to hire him because they weren't comfortable with a "Hindu" or someone who was brown-skinned and had an accent. He had to leave Chicago, and go find somewhere else to practice because no one would judge him on his merits, but only his personal attributes. Denied tenure at a very respected university because there were too many qualified white applicants looking for jobs.

He's published in textbooks, journals, and is one of the most technically skilled surgeons I ever met. But that wasn't good enough. He didn't even get color-blind treatment.

You'd be surprised the stories you'd hear if you looked hard enough. Or cared to.
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You seem to miss the point of my response- a historical pattern of oppression. Your friend's dad, the Indian surgeon, were his ancestors enslaved in America and forced to work the fields? Was he forced to come here or did he come to America of his own free will?

It's laughable to see you take up the mantle of fight against oppression. Really? Have you been affected by it? Are you the only one that has friends from India?
On that same note, I have friends who are Arab, Indians, Sri Lankan, Nepalese...etc. So, yes I am particularly aware of prejudice
 
Bernoull said:
We had Universities also, Sankore (Timbuktu, 12th century), had the largest library in Africa since Alexandria, there was Al-Karoune (Fez, Morrocco, 9th century)
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Right, because Morrocco is totally sub-Saharan Africa. Just look at the name--Al-Karoune--it's obviously Arabic in nature.

NOBODY is saying that Africa didn't have civilization or language. For ****s sake, read my post please.

What I'm saying is that they didn't have the educational type that would allow them to automatically translate over to Western styles, whereas Asian and Arabian populations did.
 
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Bernoull said:
We had Universities also, Sankore (Timbuktu, 12th century), had the largest library in Africa since Alexandria, there was Al-Karoune (Fez, Morrocco, 9th century)
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Sankore in timbuktu, in present day Mali. Mali is a Western African country. Is that sub-Saharan enough?
 
yearn4ivy said:
You seem to miss the point of my response- a historical pattern of oppression. Your friend's dad, the Indian surgeon, were his ancestors enslaved in America and forced to work the fields? Was he forced to come here or did he come to America of his own free will?

It's laughable to see you take up the mantle of fight against oppression. Really? Have you been affected by it? Are you the only one that has friends from India?
On that same note, I have friends who are Arab, Indians, Sri Lankan, Nepalese...etc. So, yes I am particularly aware of prejudice
Click to expand...

I do not think certain groups have ownership of a mantle of oppression, while others do not. My friend's dad worked a farm in South India that gave food to the British Empire, that isn't insignificant? He was not forced to come to America, but his parents were segregated into "Indian" only areas in colonial India in the 20s through 40s.
 
yearn4ivy said:
You seem to miss the point of my response- a historical pattern of oppression. Your friend's dad, the Indian surgeon, were his ancestors enslaved in America and forced to work the fields? Was he forced to come here or did he come to America of his own free will?

It's laughable to see you take up the mantle of fight against oppression. Really? Have you been affected by it? Are you the only one that has friends from India?
On that same note, I have friends who are Arab, Indians, Sri Lankan, Nepalese...etc. So, yes I am particularly aware of prejudice
Click to expand...

Yeah. I have to agree with this. Being subject to racial profiling in an airport is not comparable with centuries of slavery and oppression. Furthermore, your friend's dad came as a surgeon - and even if he experienced some racism along the way, he still had a leg up. FWIW, I'm of Indian heritage myself.

Ultimately, I don't think the past history of different races matters that much. What matters is how different ethnic groups are faring in the US currently. Most people would agree that AAs are not at an optimal socioeconomic level, as a whole. And I hope that most people would agree that something needs to be done with that. Regardless of the factors that led to their social disparities today (and whose fault it is), we should be aiming to bridge those gaps. Period. I don't like the idea of affirmative action, but I think it's necessary...if that makes sense.

OP, I feel for you, because you are probably a very intelligent person. But, with that said...I'm an ORM with a very below-average GPA/sGPA and I got interviews at some of the schools you mentioned, including Harvard. So perhaps there is something else lacking in your aplication.
 
yearn4ivy said:
You seem to miss the point of my response- a historical pattern of oppression. Your friend's dad, the Indian surgeon, were his ancestors enslaved in America and forced to work the fields? Was he forced to come here or did he come to America of his own free will?

It's laughable to see you take up the mantle of fight against oppression. Really? Have you been affected by it? Are you the only one that has friends from India?
On that same note, I have friends who are Arab, Indians, Sri Lankan, Nepalese...etc. So, yes I am particularly aware of prejudice
Click to expand...


Why don't you read up on your Indian history? Hindus in India have been subjugated for centuries, first by the Islamic Empire than the British Empire and only recently gained independance. There were few periods in modern history where they were free people.

Hindus could not do many things and were mistreated under Islamic rule and under British rule, that isn't oppression?
 
thamsenman said:
I do not think certain groups have ownership of a mantle of oppression, while others do not. My friend's dad worked a farm in South India that gave food to the British Empire, that isn't insignificant? He was not forced to come to America, but his parents were segregated into "Indian" only areas in colonial India in the 20s through 40s.
Click to expand...

Cry me a river.
What do you call apartheid in South Africa?
Or what will you say about my friend's father who had to carry a pass just to get around in Rhodesia?

Boo hooo.
You are not directly affected by oppression, so I doubt you really understand what it means to have your humanity denied.
 
Pianoman32 said:
Michael Jackson went from a black man, to a white woman. With hard work, one can change their heritage.
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:laugh: point taken but I didn't say people couldn't change their outer appearance. Michael Jackson still had african american ancestors.
 
yearn4ivy said:
Cry me a river.
What do you call apartheid in South Africa?
Or what will you say about my friend's father who had to carry a pass just to get around in Rhodesia?

Boo hooo.
You are not directly affected by oppression, so I doubt you really understand what it means to have your humanity denied.
Click to expand...

Why do you say "boo hoo" at someone else's life heritage and struggles but think that your own deserve special consideration? There is nothing better that characterizes the entitlement mentality you have than that.

I believe that all lives are equal. That is why I am against AA. I don't know what America is if you cannot work hard and get ahead with their own merits.
 
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daisy44 said:
Yeah. I have to agree with this. Being subject to racial profiling in an airport is not comparable with centuries of slavery and oppression. Furthermore, your friend's dad came as a surgeon - and even if he experienced some racism along the way, he still had a leg up. FWIW, I'm of Indian heritage myself.

Ultimately, I don't think the past history of different races matters that much. What matters is how different ethnic groups are faring in the US currently. Most people would agree that AAs are not at an optimal socioeconomic level, as a whole. And I hope that most people would agree that something needs to be done with that. Regardless of the factors that led to their social disparities today (and whose fault it is), we should be aiming to bridge those gaps. Period. I don't like the idea of affirmative action, but I think it's necessary...if that makes sense.

OP, I feel for you, because you are probably a very intelligent person. But, with that said...I'm an ORM with a very below-average GPA/sGPA and I got interviews at some of the schools you mentioned, including Harvard. So perhaps there is something else lacking in your aplication.
Click to expand...

Thank you Daisy44:)... I can't believe you chose Daisy as a username:)
 
yearn4ivy said:
Cry me a river.
What do you call apartheid in South Africa?
Or what will you say about my friend's father who had to carry a pass just to get around in Rhodesia?

Boo hooo.
You are not directly affected by oppression, so I doubt you really understand what it means to have your humanity denied.
Click to expand...

I'm sure you did not mean it this way, but please don't put down other races' struggles. I'm very proud of how my parents have risen above the hurdles they have faced as Asian immigrants, and your comment was a little disrespectful.

Also i was really interested in reading people's comments on the differences between AAs and African immigrants. I never really considered the distinction between the two.
 
dokein said:
Sankore was Islamic as well, and importantly, remained very Islamic in character (instead of completely merging with surrounding cultures). It's not all geography.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sankore
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I, clearly, am not aware that Islamic denotes a certain geographical region or race:rolleyes:.
Some West African nations have sizeable populations of idigenous muslims.
 
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daisy44 said:
You might not have meant it this way, but please don't put down other races' struggles. I'm very proud of how my parents have risen above the hurdles they have faced as Asian immigrants, and your comment was a little disrespectful.
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Exactly. I did not mean it that way.
 
thamsenman said:
Why don't you read up on your Indian history? Hindus in India have been subjugated for centuries, first by the Islamic Empire than the British Empire and only recently gained independance. There were few periods in modern history where they were free people.

Hindus could not do many things and were mistreated under Islamic rule and under British rule, that isn't oppression?
Click to expand...

Like I said, you are not the only one who has friends that are Indian. All the above that you posted is not new information to me.
 
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yearn4ivy said:
WOW! :eek:
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wow what? my black friends arent the gangster type though..however a lot of black people in america follow the gangster type.

and theres nothing wrong with saying sterotypes are usually true.. i know a lot of asian people who aare extremely good at math, iknow a lot of irish drunks, and my black friends love fried chicken, doesnt mean im rasict hah..

think white steotypes are correct too for the most part. i think entrance into med school should be on merit not on race though. whether tht means an all white school, or an asll black school(which prollly wouldnt happen since i doubt enough black people apply to fill all the med schools up since theyre minority.)
these people are rascist. i
[youtube]8pyW6w5B7Aw[/youtube]
 
yearn4ivy said:
I, clearly, am not aware that Islamic denotes are certain geographical region or race:rolleyes:.
Some West African nations have sizeable populations of idigenous muslims.
Click to expand...

Considering the origin of Islam, it's not quite the same imo. Plus Islam greatly decreased as an intellectual culture in the past 500 years.
 
rctriplefresh5 said:
wow what? my black friends arent the gangster type though..however a lot of black people in america follow the gangster type.

and theres nothing wrong with saying sterotypes are usually true.. i know a lot of asian people who aare extremely good at math, iknow a lot of irish drunks, and my black friends love fried chicken, doesnt mean im rasict hah..

think white steotypes are correct too for the most part. i think entrance into med school should be on merit not on race though. whether tht means an all white school, or an asll black school(which prollly wouldnt happen since i doubt enough black people apply to fill all the med schools up since theyre minority.)
these people are rascist. i
[YOUTUBE]8pyW6w5B7Aw[/YOUTUBE]
Click to expand...


No comment.
The title of the video says it all.
 
rctriplefresh5 said:
wow what? my black friends arent the gangster type though..however a lot of black people in america follow the gangster type.

and theres nothing wrong with saying sterotypes are usually true.. i know a lot of asian people who aare extremely good at math, iknow a lot of irish drunks, and my black friends love fried chicken, doesnt mean im rasict hah..

think white steotypes are correct too for the most part. i think entrance into med school should be on merit not on race though. whether tht means an all white school, or an asll black school(which prollly wouldnt happen since i doubt enough black people apply to fill all the med schools up since theyre minority.)
these people are rascist. i
[YOUTUBE]8pyW6w5B7Aw[/YOUTUBE]
Click to expand...

I do not know whether you are merely foolish or socially inept. But every comment you have said on this thread is offensive. You are contributing nothing. If you stereotypes are most true then you are most likely a cross-eyed redneck. You are racist!:smuggrin: You should be banned.
 
chelala said:
Some of you live in a bubble.
Click to expand...

I have to admit that i also questioned why African Americans complained when slavery ended after the civil war but a class i took was a rude awakening. (I don't know if the following example has been given, but i got tired of reading)

not many people know that before WWII most people lived in inner cities because mortgages had to be paid in a short amount of time (about five years) but after the war the GI bill helped people move out of the inner cities to the suburbs due to govt help in setting up 30 year mortgages, but minorities were specifically excluded from this bill (redlining anyone?). so they had no choice but to stay in the minority enclaves. Well this practise was later stopped but if you think of it that means that most of our parents grew up in a generation where this was happening. that means caucasian parents were able to afford houses and be able to have equity to pass on to their children.
So take two kids nowadays. one is white the other black. the white kid was born with a leg up because the parent own their house whereas the black kid's parents don't. And this extra money can lead to further advantatges in life such as the white family having more resources to give their kids a better education etc. but when the two kids are looking at each other the white kid just thinks "why can't this guy in my class get the grades i get we are both in this State school" (which i think is how most people on SDN think)
 
youngMeddy said:
I do not know whether you are merely foolish or socially inept. But every comment you have said on this thread is offensive. You are contributing nothing. If you stereotypes are most true then you are most likely a cross-eyed redneck. You are racist!:smuggrin: You should be banned.
Click to expand...
considering i said white stereotypes are true a lot as well, and i said med school entrance should be all merit based you're an idiot for thinking im a racist

your posts haven't contributed either....

not cross eyed...not a red neck...was crossed eyed as a child though but it went aways.
 
casillas said:
So take two kids nowadays. one is white the other black. the white kid was born with a leg up because the parent own their house whereas the black kid's parents don't. And this extra money can lead to further advantatges in life such as the white family having more resources to give their kids a better education etc. but when the two kids are looking at each other the white kid just thinks "why can't this guy in my class get the grades i get we are both in this State school" (which i think is how most people on SDN think)
Click to expand...

People are arguing about URM independently of financial hardship. Just so you know.
 
casillas said:
I have to admit that i also questioned why African Americans complained when slavery ended after the civil war but a class i took was a rude awakening. (I don't know if the following example has been given, but i got tired of reading)

not many people know that before WWII most people lived in inner cities because mortgages had to be paid in a short amount of time (about five years) but after the war the GI bill helped people move out of the inner cities to the suburbs due to govt help in setting up 30 year mortgages, but minorities were specifically excluded from this bill (redlining anyone?). so they had no choice but to stay in the minority enclaves. Well this practise was later stopped but if you think of it that means that most of our parents grew up in a generation where this was happening. that means caucasian parents were able to afford houses and be able to have equity to pass on to their children.
So take two kids nowadays. one is white the other black. the white kid was born with a leg up because the parent own their house whereas the black kid's parents don't. And this extra money can lead to further advantatges in life such as the white family having more resources to give their kids a better education etc. but when the two kids are looking at each other the white kid just thinks "why can't this guy in my class get the grades i get we are both in this State school" (which i think is how most people on SDN think)
Click to expand...

Thanks this is very enlightening. Someone kept complaining that if URMs get into med school easier then so should GI vets. You forget the GI Bill, that gave Vets this exact opportunity (excluding blacks of course). Very relevant article addressing plight of African Americans. http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0625-02.htm
 
dokein said:
Considering the origin of Islam, it's not quite the same imo. Plus Islam greatly decreased as an intellectual culture in the past 500 years.
Click to expand...

danger...danger will robinson
 
rctriplefresh5 said:
considering i said white stereotypes are true a lot as well, and i said med school entrance should be all merit based you're an idiot for thinking im a racist

your posts haven't contributed either....

not cross eyed...not a red neck...was crossed eyed as a child though but it went aways.
Click to expand...

It does not matter if you make fun of white people too. You are a bigot by definition: a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement. You know like when you said, "blacks are not smart" People like you propagate stereotypes. You think it is funny and a joke. But in actuality, its very childish. Please grow up before going to medical school. I am sorry for merely combating your posts. But what you said is ridiculous and not contributing. The rests of my posts actually add evidence to promote a informative discussion. "Stereotypes are true" - huh? just leave
 
rctriplefresh5 said:
and theres nothing wrong with saying sterotypes are usually true..
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I have to disagree.

Stereotypes are used by people who want an answer for everything. It gives them the perception that they understand the world better even though they really don't. Instead of keeping an open mind and learning something new, they simply say, "Well, I will assume this since that is the stereotype I know." Normally, people who stereotype don't like learning new things, and hold on to what they believe because it makes them "safe".

I gave stereotyping people a try once a few years ago when I started college, but found it didn't work too well. I stopped doing it after a few days, because it kept making me assume wrong things. When you stereotype people, you have to get use to the feeling of being wrong the majority of the time. Why? Because people are different. I should add that I hate being wrong.

I find it strange that a college student would still believe in stereotypes. In college you meet so many different people, so I don't know how anyone could find a one size fits all box for certain groups.

Finally, there have been studies done by various university psychology departments that show while stereotypes are true sometimes, they are normally wrong.
 
That Popeye's Chicken thing occurred in my hometown. What a stupid news story. WTG Rochester! :laugh:
 
yearn4ivy said:
Cry me a river.
What do you call apartheid in South Africa?
Or what will you say about my friend's father who had to carry a pass just to get around in Rhodesia?

Boo hooo.
You are not directly affected by oppression, so I doubt you really understand what it means to have your humanity denied.
Click to expand...


You are no superior to people who have undergone those challenges, and their problems were no less serious just because you don't know what they were.

The difference is: those people were not taught by American society to feel entitled because of their problems and history. They were taught that to succeed in life, they had to try to overcome obstacles without a helping hand. There were no "Get out of Jail Free" cards.
 
yearn4ivy said:
Cry me a river.
What do you call apartheid in South Africa?
Or what will you say about my friend's father who had to carry a pass just to get around in Rhodesia?

Boo hooo.
You are not directly affected by oppression, so I doubt you really understand what it means to have your humanity denied.
Click to expand...

Such selfish, apathetic and ignorant statements show the type of person you are. It's unbelievable that you can even say that after participating in this thread for so long. Have we not established that everyone has suffered?

Or are you saying that you are currently oppressed too?
 
thamsenman said:
You are no superior to people who have undergone those challenges, and their problems were no less serious just because you don't know what they were.

The difference is: those people were not taught by American society to feel entitled because of their problems and history. They were taught that to succeed in life, they had to try to overcome obstacles without a helping hand. There were no "Get out of Jail Free" cards.
Click to expand...

zempa said:
Such selfish, apathetic and ignorant statements show the type of person you are. It's unbelievable that you can even say that after participating in this thread for so long. Have we not established that everyone has suffered?

Or are you saying that you are currently oppressed too?
Click to expand...


Zempa, you are certainly out to read the worst into my comments. By all means, carry on and see if I care.

Thamsenman, like I indicated to diasy44, I am not disparaging the struggles of any groups or any person (and like a reasonable person, she accepted this and moved on).

My "cry me a river" and "boo hoo" comments were directed at you Thamsenman. You were going on and on about oppressions about other groups, yet you have not contributed any personal experiences and cannot possibly and truly understand oppression. Hence, I added "you are not directly affected by oppression."

You can always disregard this explanation and carry on.
 
runawayclock said:
somehow vitiligo required MJ to also get a freaky nose job?
Click to expand...

No, but as I said, it doesn't explain all of the freakyness. Just like it doesn't explain MJ's interest in young boys. However, along with the lupus, it explains the black to white skin color change.
 
Bernoull said:
U need to stop talking out of ur a**. Ur arrogance is only matched by ur ignorance.
Click to expand...

Great, ad hominem attacks. Please refute the point.

The fact that it was mainly islamic, combined with the fall of islam as a major intellectual contributor, means that doesn't help THE ENTIRETY OF SUBSAHARAN AFRICA.

It's not saying African culture is inferior or anything, or that they dont' have civilization or language, or that they don't contribute, etc.

It's ONLY saying that their educational history and techniques do not allow easy integration.
 
yearn4ivy said:
Zempa, you are certainly out to read the worst into my comments. By all means, carry on and see if I care.

Thamsenman, like I indicated to diasy44, I am not disparaging the struggles of any groups or any person (and like a reasonable person, she accepted this and moved on).

My "cry me a river" and "boo hoo" comments were directed at you Thamsenman. You were going on and on about oppressions about other groups, yet you have not contributed any personal experiences and cannot possibly and truly understand oppression. Hence, I added "you are not directly affected by oppression."

You can always disregard this explanation and carry on.
Click to expand...

I can't talk about women without being a woman? Or a jew without being a jew? I know what's right and I know what's fair, and that is what is important to know.

You're right. I don't know what it's like to be Black and be discriminated against. I don't know what it's like to have a history filled with persecution and humiliation. I don't and I admit that I don't.

I also don't know what it's like to be an Asian hard working student who spends many sleepless nights studying, working odd jobs to support his family, and trying to get in the right way, only to have the system stacked against him. I don't know what that's like either.

But for some reason, the first story is a lot more in vogue than the second at admissions committees.
 
zempa said:
Such selfish, apathetic and ignorant statements show the type of person you are. It's unbelievable that you can even say that after participating in this thread for so long. Have we not established that everyone has suffered?

Or are you saying that you are currently oppressed too?
Click to expand...

One more thing Zempa, do not delude yourself;I do not recall any contribution of substance on your part. Dokein, gplex86 and futuredoc- yes.

But you? Either that, or I have conditioned myself to skip the errant nonsense you spewed on this thread.

You also mentioned that you will not argue with me. Take your own advice.
 
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