Name Change to MD, DO

[OnTheOtherHand]

1.)I hope your not a D.O. with that attitude buddy. Your no better than some of the M.D.'s that told me I was stupid for going to a Quack school(I actually picked DO over MD. Seems like it is not as malignant.)
2.)Name calling gets NONE of us nowhere. To me that is one of the reasons why NP's/CRNA have encroached on our territority. We should be more focused on CONCRETE ways instead of the useless name calling. The public already thinks that Physicians are greedy and make too much money while Nurses(at least to me) are seen as angels.
3.)I am wondering if this more of the internet E-Courage.

Well, I think that unless you're willing to be trained to a point where your profession can be reasonably seen as a type of full physician, we have to make it clear that NPs and PAs are not full physicians. DOs are given essentially the same training as MDs with the addition of OMM techniques. Personally, I feel that I'm preferring a DO degree instead of a MD as I feel that it would make me a better primary care physician.

But! We have to accept the reality that NPs and PAs are not full physicians nor were they trained to be. Hell, I think I'd be more in support of a Nurse Practicioner becoming a full physician than a Physician's Assistant becoming a full physician as it doesn't make sense for a PA to be a full physician. Sure, full enough to practice under the supervision of a MD or DO but not enough to practice on their own.

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[Makati2008]

I've never seen an MD talk **** about a DO. I've seen just the opposite. And I'm not suggesting a physician walk up to a NP/PA and call him a phaggot. I'm saying that we should not tiptoe around their sensitivities, nor should we passively rub lotion onto our buttocks while a cohort of lesser-trained people scream at the top of their lungs to an ill-informed public that they are the same, if not better, than the person standing next to them with years more training and $$$$$$ more debt to prove it.

So you're a PA and you're sensitive to their plight. Fine. But now you're going to become a physician. Put your big boy pants on and stop living in your past and start defending your future.

1.)Maybe you haven't worked closely enough with them. I have and probably a little older.I have also heard older D.O.'s not to go their road and go M.D.(I still don't understand why?)
2.)Its your attitude. There are many ways to get your points across without trying to be a jerk(Again I bet your another one of these people that talk a big game on SDN but in real life is the most passive aggressive person in the room)
3.)And with your pompice attitude(and not being able to understand), why don't you grow up because MLP's are part of BOTH of our futures and you appears to not realize it or ignore it.... Not living in the past kiddo and I still do ER work as a PA currently.. Just get annoyed with that E-courage/hubris on here.

 

[sideways]

1.)Maybe you haven't worked closely enough with them. I have and probably a little older.I have also heard older D.O.'s not to go their road and go M.D.(I still don't understand why?)
2.)Its your attitude. There are many ways to get your points across without trying to be a jerk(Again I bet your another one of these people that talk a big game on SDN but in real life is the most passive aggressive person in the room)
3.)And with your pompice attitude(and not being able to understand), why don't you grow up because MLP's are part of BOTH of our futures and you appears to not realize it or ignore it.... Not living in the past kiddo and I still do ER work as a PA currently.. Just get annoyed with that E-courage/hubris on here.

Well I get equally annoyed with someone without a sense of humor and the understanding that people have different "voices" through the written word. How I interact with people in real life has nothing to do with the tone in which I write. Go read a novel, you'll see what I mean.

 

[OnTheOtherHand]

1.)Maybe you haven't worked closely enough with them. I have and probably a little older.I have also heard older D.O.'s not to go their road and go M.D.(I still don't understand why?)
2.)Its your attitude. There are many ways to get your points across without trying to be a jerk(Again I bet your another one of these people that talk a big game on SDN but in real life is the most passive aggressive person in the room)
3.)And with your pompice attitude(and not being able to understand), why don't you grow up because MLP's are part of BOTH of our futures and you appears to not realize it or ignore it.... Not living in the past kiddo and I still do ER work as a PA currently.. Just get annoyed with that E-courage/hubris on here.

And as long as you feel confident and competent enough to work in the ER, more power to you! Goddess knows we do need MLPs to help manage patient load and I would never demean them. I just feel that overstepping one's training and sphere of competence is dangerous both to the patient and the MLP.

 

[Makati2008]

Well, I think that unless you're willing to be trained to a point where your profession can be reasonably seen as a type of full physician, we have to make it clear that NPs and PAs are not full physicians. DOs are given essentially the same training as MDs with the addition of OMM techniques. Personally, I feel that I'm preferring a DO degree instead of a MD as I feel that it would make me a better primary care physician.

But! We have to accept the reality that NPs and PAs are not full physicians nor were they trained to be. Hell, I think I'd be more in support of a Nurse Practicioner becoming a full physician than a Physician's Assistant becoming a full physician as it doesn't make sense for a PA to be a full physician. Sure, full enough to practice under the supervision of a MD or DO but not enough to practice on their own.

1.)I agree with you for the most part.
2.)Can you elaborate on the bolded portion. There are is already a PA-DO bridge(LECOM) and NP's are excluded due to their cirriculum not being close enough to align with the physician training. So can you elaborate why you feel that way or is it personal preference? It seems to me it would make more sense for a PA with similar training to become a Doc vs. a NP that already has practice rights in so many states and appear to be breaking the door down on several other ones sadly. I am a FIRM believer in supervision for all MLP's. Anyone that works with me will tell you that.

 

[DocEspana]

1.)I hope your not a D.O. with that attitude buddy. Your no better than some of the M.D.'s that told me I was stupid for going to a Quack school(I actually picked DO over MD. Seems like it is not as malignant.)
2.)Name calling gets NONE of us nowhere. To me that is one of the reasons why NP's/CRNA have encroached on our territority. We should be more focused on CONCRETE ways instead of the useless name calling. The public already thinks that Physicians are greedy and make too much money while Nurses(at least to me) are seen as angels.
3.)I am wondering if this more of the internet E-Courage.

I dont know man. I am really for encouraging DOs (and MDs) to have pride and protect their rights and position more. I really think apathy and weak resistance has led to the blurring of physicians job role with midlevel providers around. I know its a bit of an exaggeration to say, but most people feel anaesthesiology is going downhill and wont be a lucrative career soon because nurse anaesthesiologists have effectively proven they are as effective as a physician at that and get paid a fraction of the money (and are okay with that). I know the *trend* is to hire a NA before a MD/DO if you need to expand your staff in that department. But I also admit the trend does not imply a rampant dearth of anaesthesiologists. Not yet.

But I dont think he's suggestion you go into the office and bitch out the nurse for being below you. No quite the contrary. Respect them. But have enough pride in your role to defend what should be your business. I think he is suggesting you have that fire within you on a personal level, which internet convo tends to reflect. There is MORE thane enough duties for the nurse to do as is. And all midlevel providers. Doctors cant just be defending their role in the system at the legislative level (and boy the politically active docs love to bring this up) they need to *appropriately* and *politely* defend their roles. And defend it firmly at that. Sometimes you need to sort of... mentally rev yourself up to do that. Hyping yourself up makes sure when the situation arises you act with confidence, not indifference.

also, yes i love sideways and remember that quote. But still. You should never badmouth merlot.

 

[Makati2008]

Well I get equally annoyed with someone without a sense of humor and the understanding that people have different "voices" through the written word. How I interact with people in real life has nothing to do with the tone in which I write. Go read a novel, you'll see what I mean.

That is what I mean(your last statement). I do have a sense of humor but the way you come off is a bit.....I am in medical school currently and work so my reading time is limited now. Took a ton of World Lit. in college so read plenty of novels and NEEEXT.

It just appears that a lot of people on SDN hide behind the screen name. And aren't your true feelings about PA's/NP's shown from the previous post?

 

[sideways]

But I dont think he's suggestion you go into the office and bitch out the nurse for being below you. No quite the contrary. Respect them. But have enough pride in your role to defend what should be your business. I think he is suggesting you have that fire within you on a personal level, which internet convo tends to reflect. There is MORE thane enough duties for the nurse to do as is. And all midlevel providers. Doctors cant just be defending their role in the system at the legislative level (and boy the politically active docs love to bring this up) they need to *appropriately* and *politely* defend their roles. And defend it firmly at that. Sometimes you need to sort of... mentally rev yourself up to do that. Hyping yourself up makes sure when the situation arises you act with confidence, not indifference.

also, yes i love sideways and remember that quote. But still. You should never badmouth merlot.

 

[OnTheOtherHand]

1.)I agree with you for the most part.
2.)Can you elaborate on the bolded portion. There are is already a PA-DO bridge(LECOM) and NP's are excluded due to their cirriculum not being close enough to align with the physician training. So can you elaborate why you feel that way or is it personal preference? It seems to me it would make more sense for a PA with similar training to become a Doc vs. a NP that already has practice rights in so many states and appear to be breaking the door down on several other ones sadly. I am a FIRM believer in supervision for all MLP's. Anyone that works with me will tell you that.

Well, if you take it semantically, "Nurse Practitioner" sounds a lot more independent than "Physician Assistant", due to the word "Assistant" in the title. I was taking a more semantic view of it. But to make a fully trained physician, a PA has the training to make that bridge successful. After all, they are partial physicians except for the fact that they need full physician supervision so naturally, they'd have the training to make a successful transition.

I support Physicians Assistants becoming full physicians if that is what they wish to do. Hell, it's a lot of work and you definitely have my support.

 

[Makati2008]

Well, if you take it semantically, "Nurse Practitioner" sounds a lot more independent than "Physician Assistant", due to the word "Assistant" in the title. I was taking a more semantic view of it. But to make a fully trained physician, a PA has the training to make that bridge successful. After all, they are partial physicians except for the fact that they need full physician supervision so naturally, they'd have the training to make a successful transition.

I support Physicians Assistants becoming full physicians if that is what they wish to do. Hell, it's a lot of work and you definitely have my support.

That is where the line gets blurred(partial M.D./Junior M.D) . I think we are providers(MLP) that work in collarboration with a supervising physician. In no form are we a doc.

E.

 

[OnTheOtherHand]

That is where the line gets blurred(partial M.D./Junior M.D) . I think we are providers(MLP) that work in collarboration with a supervising physician. In no form are we a doc.

E.

Hmm, I guess that's where I'm wrong and I'm sorry for that. And I guess on the patient side, when you have them being treated by PAs instead of DOs and MDs, there's the misconception that they are the doctor when in fact, they are their provider.

For example, my current primary-care provider is a PA but if I want to get on injectable estradiol, I'd probably be better off making an appointment with the MD instead.

 

[Sinfest]

You are going to have to get off of your high horse when you get into medical school. I agree that DNP being called a doc is dangerous, but your screw the MLP comment is a little off the mark.

E.

You probably misread my post. I have nothing against MLP's, they definitely serve an important role in the health care team. My original comment was referring to MLP's that believe they're equivalent to an MD/DO, even though they receive a shorter education and much less clinical training hours.

If they want equality so bad they should do what DO's did and change their curriculum to mimic MD schools, institute mandatory board exams, and go through at least a three year residency.

 

[hopeinternist]

you probably misread my post. I have nothing against mlp's, they definitely serve an important role in the health care team. My original comment was referring to mlp's that believe they're equivalent to an md/do, even though they receive a shorter education and much less clinical training hours.

If they want equality so bad they should do what do's did and change their curriculum to mimic md schools, institute mandatory board exams, and go through at least a three year residency.

+1

 

[DD214_DOC]

Well, if you take it semantically, "Nurse Practitioner" sounds a lot more independent than "Physician Assistant", due to the word "Assistant" in the title. I was taking a more semantic view of it. But to make a fully trained physician, a PA has the training to make that bridge successful. After all, they are partial physicians except for the fact that they need full physician supervision so naturally, they'd have the training to make a successful transition.

I support Physicians Assistants becoming full physicians if that is what they wish to do. Hell, it's a lot of work and you definitely have my support.

PA's are NOT, "partial physicians". They are PA's. This is the same stupid thinking that NPs are using to justify crap like the DNP and autonomous practice. "Physician" isn't the terminal end of a spectrum starting with LPN, it is its own spectrum.

PAs and NPs aren't educated enough to know what they don't know. I thought I knew quite a bit until intern year.

 

[Makati2008]

PA's are NOT, "partial physicians". They are PA's. This is the same stupid thinking that NPs are using to justify crap like the DNP and autonomous practice. "Physician" isn't the terminal end of a spectrum starting with LPN, it is its own spectrum.

PAs and NPs aren't educated enough to know what they don't know. I thought I knew quite a bit until intern year.

I agreed with you up until this point. A good PA/NP KNOWS his or her limits(ie knowing what we don't know). It is the glass ceiling that some of us will mention-its the top of our knowledge base and that is why those of us who want more knowledge progress our educations by going onto medical school and some try to supplement their knowledge bases by doing a MLP residency(MCG used to have a urology and ER residency for PA's for example.). And by residency I don't mean the watered down NP ones that are spring up, I mean the ones where the MLP is in the trenches with the Residents.

 

[OnTheOtherHand]

PA's are NOT, "partial physicians". They are PA's. This is the same stupid thinking that NPs are using to justify crap like the DNP and autonomous practice. "Physician" isn't the terminal end of a spectrum starting with LPN, it is its own spectrum.

PAs and NPs aren't educated enough to know what they don't know. I thought I knew quite a bit until intern year.

How can being a "partial physician" justify full, autonomous practice for PA? NOTHING less than training as a full physician, either DO or MD, can justify full, autonomous practice. These are people that decided to pursue a career as mid-level practitioners. If they want to be a full physician, they should pursue training to become one but NP and PA training definitely fall short of that. I never claimed otherwise.

 

[metalmd06]

Wow this whole thread is a giant pissing contest. First MD vs. DO now MD/DO vs. MLP. Everyone is bickering and fighting like children. This is the biggest problem with medicine. WE NEED TO WORK TOGETHER. I've seen it on rotations. Docs argue with nurses. Nurses argue with residents. Nurses argue with PT's. Respiratory therapists argue with doctors. In the end, people get very sick or DIE because of it. Everyone on this thread should sit back a second and think about why they decided to go into this profession in the first place. At the end of the day, no one is ever judged by the initials after their name. All that matters is the people we help.

 

[OnTheOtherHand]

Wow this whole thread is a giant pissing contest. First MD vs. DO now MD/DO vs. MLP. Everyone is bickering and fighting like children. This is the biggest problem with medicine. WE NEED TO WORK TOGETHER. I've seen it on rotations. Docs argue with nurses. Nurses argue with residents. Nurses argue with PT's. Respiratory therapists argue with doctors. In the end, people get very sick or DIE because of it. Everyone on this thread should sit back a second and think about why they decided to go into this profession in the first place. At the end of the day, no one is ever judged by the initials after their name. All that matters is the people we help.

Agreed. We all need to work together and one of the problems that Osteopathy suffers from is this segregation of professional communities. It reminds me of a problem that the transsexual community suffers from.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Wow this whole thread is a giant pissing contest. First MD vs. DO now MD/DO vs. MLP. Everyone is bickering and fighting like children. This is the biggest problem with medicine. WE NEED TO WORK TOGETHER. I've seen it on rotations. Docs argue with nurses. Nurses argue with residents. Nurses argue with PT's. Respiratory therapists argue with doctors. In the end, people get very sick or DIE because of it. Everyone on this thread should sit back a second and think about why they decided to go into this profession in the first place. At the end of the day, no one is ever judged by the initials after their name. All that matters is the people we help.

The best is when pre-medical MD vs DO students argue with each other about difference in the degree, medical students argue with each other about who's smarter, changing degrees, etc, attendings argue which field is best, why another field isn't X,Y, and Z, etc .... and all the while huge reimbursement cuts, midlevel/non-physician take over, and loss of control all sneak right behind our backs in the middle of the scuffle.

 

[Makati2008]

The best is when pre-medical MD vs DO students argue with each other about difference in the degree, medical students argue with each other about who's smarter, changing degrees, etc, attendings argue which field is best, why another field isn't X,Y, and Z, etc .... and all the while huge reimbursement cuts, midlevel/non-physician take over, and loss of control all sneak right behind our backs in the middle of the scuffle.

Its not "MLP" take over its NP take over and they are not sneaking around to do this, they are doing it quite openly. Do you feel as though the PA-DO bridge is more "physician losing ground to midlevels" If you do then the 3yr D.O./M.D. programs should be abolished outright as well then shouldn't they?

 

[tkim]

Its not "MLP" take over its NP take over and they are not sneaking around to do this, they are doing it quite openly. Do you feel as though the PA-DO bridge is more "physician losing ground to midlevels" If you do then the 3yr D.O./M.D. programs should be abolished outright as well then shouldn't they?

Not really, since you are still required to complete residency.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Its not "MLP" take over its NP take over and they are not sneaking around to do this, they are doing it quite openly. Do you feel as though the PA-DO bridge is more "physician losing ground to midlevels" If you do then the 3yr D.O./M.D. programs should be abolished outright as well then shouldn't they?

Absolutely not. I fully support PAs, and should have clarified ... sorry for any unintended insult. PAs are well trained, meet acceptable standards, and want to practice within the team based medical approach ... all good things in my book. NPs want to prance around in white coats, introduce themselves as Dr (in their solo practices) and perform all the high reimbursing procedure (at physician payout level) because they 'deserve it,' and 'can do anything a physician can, they just care more.'

Totally different ballpark compared to a PA. Additionally, I've raised a few questions as to the PA/DO bridges, but they've been answered sufficiently and I have no problem with them.

I'm very pro-PA and plan on working WITH them in the future.

 

[metalmd06]

The healthcare system works the best when people know their role. And I'm not talking smack either, its just a fact. The physican's role is to oversee the care of the patient and make important management and treatment decisions based on years of training and experience. When other less qualified practicioners attempt to do that, **** hits the fan. I've seen this happen on clinicals too. Nurses get really pissed off when doctors don't agree with suggestions they may have about the care of their patients. But the bottom line is that its not their responsibility. If they wanted that responsibility, they should have gone to medical school. The same is true for PA's and NP's. In my experience, they function almost autonomously in the hospital. They have their own patient loads and they function like residents. But they still have to present to an attending and the attending has to agree with their plan of treatment. 90% of the time they're right, but if they're not and the attending changes the plan, tough ****.

 

[Makati2008]

Absolutely not. I fully support PAs, and should have clarified ... sorry for any unintended insult. PAs are well trained, meet acceptable standards, and want to practice within the team based medical approach ... all good things in my book. NPs want to prance around in white coats, introduce themselves as Dr (in their solo practices) and perform all the high reimbursing procedure (at physician payout level) because they 'deserve it,' and 'can do anything a physician can, they just care more.'

Totally different ballpark compared to a PA. Additionally, I've raised a few questions as to the PA/DO bridges, but they've been answered sufficiently and I have no problem with them.

I'm very pro-PA and plan on working WITH them in the future.

1.)Cool
2.)I have seen that from both NP/PA alike(very rare in the latter but it has occurred), and they should be jailed imho for impersonation of a Physician. The worst case I saw was from a NP(who was pissed because the attending physician wanted to speak to a DOC) who stated she knew more than a MD/DO due to having to write a thesis while doctors dont have too. WTFH....

 

[JaggerPlate]

2.)I have seen that from both NP/PA alike(very rare in the latter but it has occurred), and they should be jailed imho for impersonation of a Physician. The worst case I saw was from a NP(who was pissed because the attending physician wanted to speak to a DOC) who stated she knew more than a MD/DO due to having to write a thesis while doctors dont have too. WTFH....

Yeah, look up some of the debates between CRNAs or DNPs and physicians/med students on SDN if you're ever bored ... it's astonishing. Literally, individuals who have never stepped foot in a medical school classroom who are convinced that a. they have equivalent knowledge of a physician (normally because they've worked -as a nurse- in health care for a long time and believe they've 'picked it up along the way'), b. they are actually superior providers because they are more patient friendly, c. they think they should introduce themselves as 'doctor' (DNP) in clinical settings, be reimbursed to the level of BC physicians, etc, etc

Obviously I have a dog in this fight, but this situation, just from a completely objective, outsider point of view, is just like 'errr ... what?'

 

[drift]

Not really, since you are still required to complete residency.

the PA-DO bridge is 3 years + residency.

No different then any other 3yr med school curriculum + residency, just this one is specialized towards PAs. There is also a DPM-DO bridge that is also 3yrs + residency fyi.

 

[tkim]

the PA-DO bridge is 3 years + residency.

No different then any other 3yr med school curriculum + residency, just this one is specialized towards PAs. There is also a DPM-DO bridge that is also 3yrs + residency fyi.

Not quite getting what yer getting at.

 

[JapaneseSakura]

This is pretty much the zombie topic of this forum. No matter how many times it's discussed and dies off, it keeps reanimating itself, forever stumbling about the osteopathic form on SDN in search of fresh brains.

Do a search at the top for "DO Degree change" among others, and I'm sure you'll find plenty of threads.

Or just take my word for it: It ain't gonna happen.