Naturopathic medicine

[PharmDr.]

I was wondering if any of you guys (gals) have had any experiences with Naturopathic Physicians (NDs)? Im a soon to be RRT, and have worked in pharmacy for 3 yrs, but my passion for medicine as it is widely practice in this country has gone down. I dont want to start an argument about conventional medicine vs alternative, but im very curious about this field lately after a lot of research. I think both forms of healthcare is best for the patient (integrative), but I dont want to go into a profession where I cant make a living. I am currently interested in SCNM in Tempe, AZ, if you have any info on that program. Thanks

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[Jack Daniel]

I was wondering if any of you guys (gals) have had any experiences with Naturopathic Physicians (NDs)? Im a soon to be RRT, and have worked in pharmacy for 3 yrs, but my passion for medicine as it is widely practice in this country has gone down. I dont want to start an argument about conventional medicine vs alternative, but im very curious about this field lately after a lot of research. I think both forms of healthcare is best for the patient (integrative), but I dont want to go into a profession where I cant make a living. I am currently interested in SCNM in Tempe, AZ, if you have any info on that program. Thanks

I think there is a significant number of people who have strong enough bias against conventional medicine and have the time and energy to be very active in their health. For this segment of the population, I think a naturopathic physician is a good bet. However, I've not had any experience with the profession, other than what I've read.

I've noticed over the last few years a debate generating between college trained NDs (such as Bastyr) vs the self-trained/correspondance course variety over the benefits of becoming a licensed practitioner. As the profession continues to grow and strengthen politically, I'm very interested to see if it will evolve into a more widely respected healthcare system or if it will remain--as stated above--the last recourse for the disenchanted.

 

[guetzow]

I was wondering if any of you guys (gals) have had any experiences with Naturopathic Physicians (NDs)? Im a soon to be RRT, and have worked in pharmacy for 3 yrs, but my passion for medicine as it is widely practice in this country has gone down. I dont want to start an argument about conventional medicine vs alternative, but im very curious about this field lately after a lot of research. I think both forms of healthcare is best for the patient (integrative), but I dont want to go into a profession where I cant make a living. I am currently interested in SCNM in Tempe, AZ, if you have any info on that program. Thanks

Then Don't !! You're a smart guy. How bout just FP or IM (With enough office procedures to make the mortgage payment), and do NM with your patients as well?

 

[611]

http://www.nuhs.edu/show.asp?durki=49

 

[core0]

More FYI
First article does an OK job of explaining that Naturopathy is Unlicensed and buyer beware.
http://www.csindy.com/csindy/2006-01-19/cover.html

Second article is a follow up on the ND that managed to kill the kid:

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4434869,00.html

I think that this points out the real problem. There is no real science behid this. There are some elements of non-traditional medicine such as accupuncture that are fairly well studied. Most is not.

David Carpenter, PA-C

 

[Jack Daniel]

..... but my passion for medicine as it is widely practice in this country has gone down.

I can appreciate your perception that some aspects of our healthcare system needs improvement. However, by earning an unrestricted medical license (i.e. MD/DO) you have both sides of the fence covered: an understanding of conventional medicine and the scientific foundation to legitimately and safely branch out into less conventional treatments.

 

[guetzow]

I can appreciate your perception that some aspects of our healthcare system needs improvement. However, by earning an unrestricted medical license (i.e. MD/DO) you have both sides of the fence covered: an understanding of conventional medicine and the scientific foundation to legitimately and safely branch out into less conventional treatments.

I believe I already posted that.

 

[Jack Daniel]

I believe I already posted that.

As I look back, I see that you certainly did. Of course, nothing wrong with two different posts expressing a similar opinion.

 

[dee783]

I can appreciate your perception that some aspects of our healthcare system needs improvement. However, by earning an unrestricted medical license (i.e. MD/DO) you have both sides of the fence covered: an understanding of conventional medicine and the scientific foundation to legitimately and safely branch out into less conventional treatments.

Just came across this thread and felt the need to add in my 2 cents. I agree with the above post. There is not a lot of job security for naturopathic physicians due to lack of scientific support behind it. You really have to be something special to succeed as one. If you truly believe in alternative med(which i do to an extent) then integrate it into your practice along with your MD/DO or whatever degree you pursue. I worked at a blood collection company and most of our medical staff was employed by ND's and a few nurses. All of the ND's were really struggling, unhappy with where the education has taken them, and frustrated with having to take orders from management with their little bachelor's degrees who made more than them to top it off!

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Why not go DO? The original theories are the same as ND programs. The main difference is you learn EBM not therapies that have little to no scientific backing.

 

[cel083]

I think there is a significant number of people who have strong enough bias against conventional medicine and have the time and energy to be very active in their health. For this segment of the population, I think a naturopathic physician is a good bet. However, I've not had any experience with the profession, other than what I've read.

I've noticed over the last few years a debate generating between college trained NDs (such as Bastyr) vs the self-trained/correspondance course variety over the benefits of becoming a licensed practitioner. As the profession continues to grow and strengthen politically, I'm very interested to see if it will evolve into a more widely respected healthcare system or if it will remain--as stated above--the last recourse for the disenchanted.

ND via correspondence? Yikes!

 

[core0]

What the hell is a "blood collection company"?

I'll second that. And what is an RN doing working for an ND. Pretty sure the state BON doesn't recognized ND (unless you are referring to Nursing Doctorate).

David Carpenter, PA-C

 

[DrEastWest]

Disclaimer: I am not a Naturopathic Doctor, nor do I have any personal interest in supporting the profession. I simply would like to clarify a few points to hopefully dispel some ignorance on this site.

1. NDs are licensed in 14 states and Washington DC.
2. Their scope of practice varies by state. In some, they have full prescription, minor surgery, and diagnosis ability. In others, they can merely order labs, diagnose, prescribe herbs and supplements, and offer lifestyle counseling and NMT (Naturopathic Manipulation Technique).
3. In those states, they are required to attend an accredited 4-year, 4100 hour (at least) graduate (ND) program, with a "built-in residency."
4. The first two years of these programs is startlingly similar to the first two years of MD/DO school. (ie, entirely western science lecture/lab-based taught by PhDs and NDs)
5. The final two years introduce clinical rotations and more "alternative" modalities such as herbal medicine, homeopathy, nutrition, and NMT.
6. At the end of two years, Naturopathic students take their first board exams (western science, quite similar to the USMLE). At the end of three years they take their "Clinic Entrance Exam," and at the end of four they take their comprehensive licensing exam.
7. A list of OPTIONAL post-grad accredited residencies can be found at the American Association of Naturopathic Physicians website.

Furthermore, there seems to a lot of similarities between the allopathic/osteopathic route and the naturopathic route (specifically that they all rely heavily on a foundation of western lab science curricula). ND training deviates upon the addition of alternative western modalities during later training (very similar to the way OMT is incorporated into the DO curricula in lieu of whatever allopathic classes MDs are taking instead). Contrary to popular belief, although many ND schools also have acupuncture programs, in order for NDs to study and preform acupuncture, they must enroll in an additional dual degree program that leads to an L.Ac. ("license in acupuncture").

The reason for discrimination against NDs seems very similar to the (declining) discrimination against DOs by MDs: the average MCAT scores of ND students are slightly lower, on average, than DO students. (Likewise, DO MCATS tend to be slightly lower than MD scores, on average.) This fact, combined with the Naturopathic inclusion of "alternative and complementary medicines" into their required course of training gives them an unfair, in my opinion, label as inferior physicians.

Now, there is one MAJOR difference: clinical training. NDs are only required to see a minimum of 350-400 patients (as primary attendings) during their clinical year and are not required to complete a post-grad residency for licensure. MDs and DOs see almost this many patients in a week during their training and are required to complete 3 years of 80 hour weeks before licensure becomes a reality. MAJOR difference. From what I understand, ND residencies are becoming more common, with time, and there may be a time when NDs occupy the same residencies as DOs and MDs.

The sad thing for me is that 36 states refuse to license naturopaths. Given the lapse in clinical education, perhaps "primary care" status is not appropriate. But, after 4 years of rigorous study, NDs ought to be able to practice what they've learned in order to give the people a choice. In states where NDs are primary care physicians, the malpractice rate is no higher than in states without NDs. Therefore, if they stay in business, they must be doing some good and ought to be given a chance, like Physical Therapists, Nutritionists, Massage Therapists, Nurses, and Chiropractors, to practice a safe alternative to what's currently offered as primary care.

Just thoughts...

 

[DrEastWest]

ND via correspondence? Yikes!

That's because in 36 states they're not licensed. In the 14 that they are licensed, a four year ND degree is required.

 

[deleted87716]

That's because in 36 states they're not licensed. In the 14 that they are licensed, a four year ND degree is required.

Four years spent studying nonsense doesn't change the fact that it's nonsense.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=10892

 

[oldiebutgoodie]

Okay, I don't get it. This is a 4 year post bac program, and then NDs are allowed to be called "physicians"? I thought only MDs and DOs were allowed to be called physicians.

And just out of curiosity, why aren't the posters having a cow about this, like with the NP/PA/DNP issues?

Oldiebutgoodie

 

[chimichanga]

I've had two students in our nursing program recently that are NDs...Couldn't get enough patients to sustain a 'practice'

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Okay, I don't get it. This is a 4 year post bac program, and then NDs are allowed to be called "physicians"? I thought only MDs and DOs were allowed to be called physicians.

And just out of curiosity, why aren't the posters having a cow about this, like with the NP/PA/DNP issues?

Oldiebutgoodie

We don't view them as a threat, many of us practice in states where they aren't recognized, there are not very many of them, and they are often a place for patients who refuse to use the medicines that MD/DOs prescribe because it isn't "organic" or "natural".

 

[ChillyRN]

In my (limited) experience, many medical doctors would not enjoy working with a portion of the patient population that seeks natropathic care. I worked with a midwife for a while (to get my 100 pelvic exams in for NP school), and she had a lot of pregnant patients that saw natropaths for their primary care. Those patients were, quite frankly, a total PITA. Can't take this vitamin b/c it isn't vegan, can't do that test b/c the planet Saturn is not in the right whatever. None of it made any sense and they were very difficult to work with. All she wanted were optimal outcomes for their baby and they treated her like the enemy for even trying. So my guess is, physicians are happy to let that subset of the population go elsewhere. I would be.

 

[deleted87716]

In my (limited) experience, many medical doctors would not enjoy working with a portion of the patient population that seeks natropathic care. I worked with a midwife for a while (to get my 100 pelvic exams in for NP school), and she had a lot of pregnant patients that saw natropaths for their primary care. Those patients were, quite frankly, a total PITA. Can't take this vitamin b/c it isn't vegan, can't do that test b/c the planet Saturn is not in the right whatever. None of it made any sense and they were very difficult to work with. All she wanted were optimal outcomes for their baby and they treated her like the enemy for even trying. So my guess is, physicians are happy to let that subset of the population go elsewhere. I would be.

Good point.

 

[ChillyRN]

Good point.

Thank you.

Further, I think Natropaths appeal to a very small part of the population and likely don't account for a significant amount of lost (potential) revenue. They aren't lobbying re: payment structure issues either. In short, no matter what title they go by (doctor, physician, etc), they don't have much impact on the big picture. I think (regardless if one believes this is a good thing or a bad thing) NPs have more potential to impact the future of the delivery of primary care, and it seems only logical that they would be the object of more conversation, debate, scrutiny etc.

Altogether, those factors may explain why physician/physician groups do not take much issue with natropaths.

 

[Magnus2010]

In Arizona they have a larger scope of practice than the average FP. By this I mean they can prescribe virtually any drug, do minor surgery and do all the alternative stuff like acupuncture, spinal manipulation and recommend homeopathy. In Arizona of an MD (who is not also a MD(H) - medical doctor of homeopathy) recommends a homeopathic (and some do) they can get in trouble by the medical board - it is not under an MD's scope.

I know how the ND's got their large scope and its an amazing story. It amazes me that in 4 years, with no real ersidency they can do anything a chiropractor, an acupuncturist or an MD can do. They only do roughly 1300 hours of clinical rotations and SCNM and of that only roughly 400 can be in allopathic medicine. And yet upon graduation they are good to go in order to deliver babies. I did roughly 500 hours of OB/gyn rotations in medical school and the main thing I learned is : things dont go south very often but when they do they can go south fast and bad, and you can lose 2 patients - there are many conditions you only see once or twice during the career of an OB but when you do you want someone who has handled real emergencies - like an OB trained MD.

Not arguing efficacy or theory, but simply economics - its all entrepeneurial , and if you do not have a real good business/marketing sense you are going to have a 2nd or 3rd job doing something else.

 

[deleted87716]

In Arizona of an MD (who is not also a MD(H) - medical doctor of homeopathy) recommends a homeopathic (and some do) they can get in trouble by the medical board - it is not under an MD's scope.

I'm pretty sure we're allowed to prescribe water, too.

 

[gasolino]

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[PharmDr.]

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[PharmDr.]

The joint commision recently added DC's to list of physicians. ND's and LAc/AP are not on the list, but podiatrists,optometrists and dentists are.

Here is a link : http://www.acatoday.org/content_css.cfm?CID=4038

 

[PharmDr.]

I posted this thread years a go and it's very interesting to hear the replies to say the least. Since then I have taken 2 yrs worth of oriental medicine classes and now want to enroll in a chiropractic program and earn a dual degree (DC/MSAc). I have honestly seen so much good come from Chinese Medicine that it has humbled me and amazed me at the same time. Asthma has been virtually cured in front of my eyes as well as fibromyalgia, idiopathic pain, migraines, depression you name it. I have worked as an RT for years now and see mostly acute patients, but the use of preventative care and education is much more rewarding (even if it's not in monetary or status means). There is a place for MD/DO in pathology, surgery, emergency care and there is also a place for DC/ND/LAc in wellness, preventative medicine and hard to treat cases. I aspire to utilize integrative medicine with all of it's healing modalities as it is the best form of medicine for health. The "alternative" medical community does not want to treat very ill or acute cases and I do not support full utilization of pharmacy by these providers. Most of my patients do not use their MDI properly and as such are not recieving a therapeutic dose. They also are not using any chest expansion exercises which work better in the long run. For a large portion of the population we take 1 step forward and 2 steps back with their health and it is my dearest hope that one day all medical professionals can work together with an open mind and without ego to what the human body is capable of accomplishing on it's own. Mind/body medicine , meditation, Acupuncture , clinical/biochemistry based nutrition, counseling, and even adjustments DO work and should be studied and utilized along with conventional treatment. Duke has used acupuncture analgesia in the OR with great success and OHSU without local anesthetic. That was long post but remember osteopaths were discriminated just 50 yrs a go and in time the truth will be known by the public regarding what is sound efficacious healthcare. Thanks

 

[outnabout]

I'm just getting into the medical field so I can only speak from a layman's perspective, but I've seen alternative medicine do interesting things and I've also seen it do nothing. I have a friend who has back pain and refuses to see an allopathic doctor. She relies on a massage therapist and a chiropractor who practices something called network chiropractic. She claims the combination of the two helps her, but it is not a cure. I guess it's better than taking tons of meds and having surgery, but I often wonder if it's all psychological (she wants it to work so it does).

Out our curiosity, I went to see her chiropractor a couple of years ago for rib pain I was having. I went for a few months and didn't notice any difference. The network way of doing adjustments is odd to say the least and I'm not sure what to think about it.

 

[RNtoMD87]

I know from personal experience that I have sensitivities to food dyes and certain additives such as :sodium bromide, sodium benzoate, MSG, nitrates, and quite a few others. Too long to list.

I was 280 pounds, diagnosed narcoleptic, nondiagnosed fibro symptoms, tired all of the time, weak, severely ADHD, felt extremely depressed all of the time because I couldn't hold relationships or pay attention to anything.

After realizing that I had a minor "panic attack" after eating certain foods, I cut my diet to the very basics. Plain meat, vegetables, fruits, rice, potatoes, etc. Slowly I added one food in at a time, and was clearly able to tell what I couldn't eat without a reaction. Once I compared the foods that caused these reactions, I isolated what in the foods caused the problems, and exactly how each affected me.

I feel that this would be very helpful if taken into account. For instance, I always had that "paradoxical effect" when i took benadryl- Until i realized it was the red dye, and started buying the clear Wal-Quil from walgreens. Now I just get the best most restful sleep ever when I take it.

Holistics and naturopathic medicine imo has a HUGE place in modern medicine. I refuse to scoff on them after my personal experiences.

 

[pamac]

Losing weight through proper diet was probably responsible for 99% of the improvement in your quality of life. Then your sleep apnea went away, and you could concentrate, didn't feel fatigued. There went your ADHD and fibromyalgia. I don't think it was the dyes or the additives unless taken as a whole from the cumulative effects of eating far too much of them as part of the obesity condition. I'm sure a physician, or any other healthcare professional would have been happy to tell you that losing weight would be the most important thing you could do. The naturopathic approach isn't required for that information.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Losing weight through proper diet was probably responsible for 99% of the improvement in your quality of life. Then your sleep apnea went away, and you could concentrate, didn't feel fatigued. There went your ADHD and fibromyalgia. I don't think it was the dyes or the additives unless taken as a whole from the cumulative effects of eating far too much of them as part of the obesity condition. I'm sure a physician, or any other healthcare professional would have been happy to tell you that losing weight would be the most important thing you could do. The naturopathic approach isn't required for that information.

Yes, but as hard as I tried to lose weight, I was unable. I actually worked much harder to lose weight then than I currently do. And I wasn't overweight until I was around 20 years old. I have had sleeping problems as well as behavioral problems since I was a small child. I don't eat "healthier" now either, except for eating less processed food. I ate a half gallon of ice-cream over a 3 day period last week. I can tell when I eat something with certain additives because even when I'm unaware, such as one time I ate some corn chips and later it turned out they had red and yellow dye in them. I can EASILY tell. I cannot think clearly when I eat these things. It feels like my mind is static-y, and I cannot put together a solid thought. Its just fragmented things rushing through my mind. I go from having a brain is pretty much automated (things are automatically categorized, and I don't put much thought into what I'm doing. And I have a "photographic" memory), to having trouble doing even the most simple tasks. I almost failed out of nursing school, because after eating some curly fries from jack in the box, i started sweating, got extremely hot, and could not focus. When I went to my clinical site, I had trouble bathing a patient. I made 5-6 trips into the room, kept forgetting needed items, and my instructor just said "Maybe nursing isn't for you." before dismissing me. My school director noticed that i was KILLING school, aside from this one incident so she gave me another chance. I never ate fried food again, and 5 years later, I have had no incidents. I sleep very well at night, and I'm extremely focused at everything I do. Every now and then, I'll eat something that affects me, but since I know the major things to avoid, it usually doesn't last more than a few hours and I can manage, with just a little difficulty. I feel the same exact symptoms. My girlfriend says that I become easily irritated, and more impulsive, when I am a VERY calculated individual usually.

I think it's something that you can't understand unless you've lived it. Chemicals affect different people in different ways. And yes, a physician interested in looking deeply would see these things, but so many times, patients with problems such as these are seen as "imagining" it, or "just nuts" as i hear doctors say. It doesn't take a naturopath, but maybe realizing that there is often a more simple solution than medication would help. Especially in the beginning stages of a disease process.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Yes, but as hard as I tried to lose weight, I was unable. I actually worked much harder to lose weight then than I currently do. And I wasn't overweight until I was around 20 years old. I have had sleeping problems as well as behavioral problems since I was a small child. I don't eat "healthier" now either, except for eating less processed food. I ate a half gallon of ice-cream over a 3 day period last week. I can tell when I eat something with certain additives because even when I'm unaware, such as one time I ate some corn chips and later it turned out they had red and yellow dye in them. I can EASILY tell. I cannot think clearly when I eat these things. It feels like my mind is static-y, and I cannot put together a solid thought. Its just fragmented things rushing through my mind. I go from having a brain is pretty much automated (things are automatically categorized, and I don't put much thought into what I'm doing. And I have a "photographic" memory), to having trouble doing even the most simple tasks. I almost failed out of nursing school, because after eating some curly fries from jack in the box, i started sweating, got extremely hot, and could not focus. When I went to my clinical site, I had trouble bathing a patient. I made 5-6 trips into the room, kept forgetting needed items, and my instructor just said "Maybe nursing isn't for you." before dismissing me. My school director noticed that i was KILLING school, aside from this one incident so she gave me another chance. I never ate fried food again, and 5 years later, I have had no incidents. I sleep very well at night, and I'm extremely focused at everything I do. Every now and then, I'll eat something that affects me, but since I know the major things to avoid, it usually doesn't last more than a few hours and I can manage, with just a little difficulty. I feel the same exact symptoms. My girlfriend says that I become easily irritated, and more impulsive, when I am a VERY calculated individual usually.

I think it's something that you can't understand unless you've lived it. Chemicals affect different people in different ways. And yes, a physician interested in looking deeply would see these things, but so many times, patients with problems such as these are seen as "imagining" it, or "just nuts" as i hear doctors say. It doesn't take a naturopath, but maybe realizing that there is often a more simple solution than medication would help. Especially in the beginning stages of a disease process.

Oh and something else to note, I'm not the only one with these symptoms. My mother has severe fibromyalgia and many of these problems and the majority of her side of the family does as well. She also has lupus, and they all have the red butterfly rash on the face. I have this sometimes also, especially when I eat problematic foods. It has gotten better though.

 

[pamac]

I get what you are saying, definitely. I feel like there is a lot that we don't know in that realm. I guess my only hangup is in the notion that naturopathy is in any better position to offer us answers to those problems than traditional fields. I'm not confident that they do unless they are utilizing a robust, scientifically backed base for their knowledge.

 

[RNtoMD87]

I get what you are saying, definitely. I feel like there is a lot that we don't know in that realm. I guess my only hangup is in the notion that naturopathy is in any better position to offer us answers to those problems than traditional fields. I'm not confident that they do unless they are utilizing a robust, scientifically backed base for their knowledge.

I can agree with that. And scientific knowledge isn't always necessary in my opinion, but it certainly does help weed out some of the quacks. I mean I am pretty confident in my ability to help the majority of people live a healthy life, through clean eating, exercise, positive mentation, etc, but there is no standard by which to gauge it.

I think this is what would prevent me from becoming a ND. Like mentioned before, I could become an MD, and lean heavily toward proven holistic medicine, but still have the tools of an MD as well as the certification.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

I can agree with that. And scientific knowledge isn't always necessary in my opinion, but it certainly does help weed out some of the quacks. I mean I am pretty confident in my ability to help the majority of people live a healthy life, through clean eating, exercise, positive mentation, etc, but there is no standard by which to gauge it.

Your right. Studying science does weed out the quacks. Since there is NO science in naturopathic quackery, it is about the same as dancing in the forest under a full moon to the music of a flute asking a half-man/half goat demigod to fix your impotence.

If ya wanna help people make better life decisions (healthy life, clean eating, exercise, etc) you could do that as a friend, priest, life coach, nurse, dietician, or physician.

But if you have an ethical bone in your body you can't do it as a naturopath.

 

[RNtoMD87]

I agree that i don't think that it is a wise career move, but unethical?

NATUROPATHIC PRACTICE
Naturopathic practice includes the following diagnostic and therapeutic modalities: clinical and laboratory diagnostic testing, nutritional medicine, botanical medicine, naturopathic physical medicine (including naturopathic manipulative therapy), public health measures, hygiene, counseling, minor surgery, homeopathy, acupuncture, prescription medication, intravenous and injection therapy, and naturopathic obstetrics (natural childbirth).

Sounds like an MD but with far fewer tools. Seems there is a lot of science in the importance of diet and exercise, many herbs such as valerian and St. Johns Wort are quite useful (I use several of these myself), and I feel that many times a less invasive approach is probably helpful. However, at some point it becomes too late and modern medicine must be utilized.

Example: If people cut their sodium level, drank plenty of water, got adequate exercise, and avoided processed food, hypertension would be much rarer. However, once you've lived with essential hypertension for decades, it is much harder to reverse, and beta blockers would be necessary.'

An example where I feel like modern medicine is misused: I went to an MD regarding low libido, tiredness, etc. When he tested my labs, I had a VItamin D level of 15 which is extremely low (nightshift RN). My T level was 320. He prescribed me Vitamin D 10,000 per day (which seems appropriate), but also started me on 250mg of test per week along with 1 mg arimidex. My T level shot up to 1450. I also have concerns of whether it will impact my fertility in the long run (If Hcg doesn't bring up my FCH and LH levels). I feel that what I would have done in the situation, is started 10,000 of Vitamin D first to see if my T level increased, and if not, maybe then prescribed Test Cypionate.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

Yes, unethical.

It's a SHAM, which they cover in medical-sounding language.

 

[pamac]

The way I feel about naturopaths is similar to the way I feel about chiropractors, and similar to concerns I have about psychologists prescribing psyche meds. When all you have to work with is a hammer, everything needs to be a nail for you to be able to get the job done right. By extension (but kind of a different concept) is that if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Let’s talk about St. John’s Wort.... so you go to your naturopath and are prescribed that for your depression symptoms. It’s natural (whatever that means). Great. But you could be missing out on some fantastic targeted medications that can zero in on your symptoms, and come with some added benefits. But all your naturopath can offer you is a handful of herbal remedies along the lines of St. John’s Wort. You aren’t getting the benefit of painting with a full pallet of colors, along with the scientifically backed trials that give us knowledge of the approaches that have the best evidence of being efficacious. In those studies, the researchers explore bias, and consider ways that could have caused their conclusions that could be false. Even with those kinds of trials backing the medical approach, there is still an element of trial and error to treatment. I’d hate to think of what one is putting their faith into when it comes to many naturopathic treatments.

I think people discount what the medical community puts into their courses of study as far as what we would like to see patients doing with their health choices. Would we prefer to use a blood pressure pill, or would we rather our patients eat better, exercise, quit vaping, cut out the stressful lifestyle, and drink less? Well the latter 5 things aren’t going to happen, so the former 1 item is all we are left with. The folks who are willing to sit down to talk to an ND or chiropractor about nutrition tend to be the folks who self select out of traditional medical approaches with MDs or other providers, and are more motivated to achieve than a lot of the folks that show up to get a pill. They are willing to buck the trend and find what they are looking for, but just the fact that they take the effort to look puts them above a lot of folks that only want to do the minimum, take medication that they don’t even know what it does for them, or only listen to what they want to hear from a doctor. When my doctor tells me to do something , I do it. And magically, it works.

 

[pamac]

As far as ethics, I’ve come to feel that a lot of folks in the alternative medicine realm don’t necessarily violate personal ethics as much as they seem to be in an environment that reinforces salesmanship to the point where their work becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

A nurse friend of mine said something very thought provoking that also isn’t something that I’ve been able to verify, but nonetheless it makes sense. And I admit, the numbers he used could have been completely off, so I’m not standing by them, but it’s interesting to think about, nonetheless. He said something along the lines of “85 percent of illnesses have a primary psychological component to them. Tribal medicine men therefore have a crack at solving up to 85 percent of the village’s illnesses simply through the power of suggestion alone. That implies that the satisfaction rate for medicine men could be higher than what we see for modern physicians”.

Again, I’m not on board with the notion that there is is a psychological basis to many of the terrible afflictions of the past, or even things like myopia, or rashes, or broken bones. But an ancient villager might have been able to notice that the witch doctor had slightly better outcomes than the folks who didn’t see them and simply died.... in an age with not much going for you, you’ll take the 1:100 chance over the 1:150 chance of being healed.

So when you go to the witchropractor, they always take x rays, they always lay hands on you, and they always take a stab at adjusting you. Most of them are happy, outwardly optimistic fellows who have an answer. Going through those motions tend to draw us in. People that spend time listening and reinforcing your feelings tend to gain our trust, whether or not they are peddling BS. And I think some or most of them peddle BS inadvertently because of their educational environment’s culture rather than any aspect of malice or ethical lapse. These folks literally see a segment of their patients respond to what they do, even if it’s the self selectors who would have good outcomes regardless of where they went for care. A broken clock is right twice per day. Chiropractors and NDs might see people improve more than even that, and they suck themselves into their own hype.

Could conventional medical care learn a lot from the folks in retail psuedomedical sales? Maybe. But we try to shy away from placebo and sham treatments due to ethics, and even in the case of psychiatric medication studies, researchers design has a difficult time not reinforcing the notion that meds like antidepressants aren’t effective.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Personally I just like a minimalist approach. The first thing I think when I have a heath problem isn't "oh no, I'm unlucky and I'm afflicted with a disease". It's "okay something caused this and I'm going to figure it out." My problem with modern medicine is I feel like interventions affect the body in ways we couldn't begin to understand, and many doctors throw medicine or treatment at the patient without thinking about another solution first. For every action is an equal but opposite reaction. Plus there's a ripple effect. Now if I'm going to die of some disease and my only chance of living is some medication or procedure that won't terribly impact my quality of life- sure bring it on. But until it's the only way I like to avoid medications. Last resort.

I don't really have any sympathy for my patients who smoke, drink, do drugs, and then come to the hospital, and basically have the attitude "fix it". While violating their ordered diet, sneaking out to smoke, etc. I hate wasting my time on these people. Thankfully the few good patients makes it worth it.

I do see what you mean about the ND community now though. I never realized this was a thing lol.

 

[RNtoMD87]

As far as ethics, I’ve come to feel that a lot of folks in the alternative medicine realm don’t necessarily violate personal ethics as much as they seem to be in an environment that reinforces salesmanship to the point where their work becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

A nurse friend of mine said something very thought provoking that also isn’t something that I’ve been able to verify, but nonetheless it makes sense. And I admit, the numbers he used could have been completely off, so I’m not standing by them, but it’s interesting to think about, nonetheless. He said something along the lines of “85 percent of illnesses have a primary psychological component to them. Tribal medicine men therefore have a crack at solving up to 85 percent of the village’s illnesses simply through the power of suggestion alone. That implies that the satisfaction rate for medicine men could be higher than what we see for modern physicians”.

Again, I’m not on board with the notion that there is is a psychological basis to many of the terrible afflictions of the past, or even things like myopia, or rashes, or broken bones. But an ancient villager might have been able to notice that the witch doctor had slightly better outcomes than the folks who didn’t see them and simply died.... in an age with not much going for you, you’ll take the 1:100 chance over the 1:150 chance of being healed.

So when you go to the witchropractor, they always take x rays, they always lay hands on you, and they always take a stab at adjusting you. Most of them are happy, outwardly optimistic fellows who have an answer. Going through those motions tend to draw us in. People that spend time listening and reinforcing your feelings tend to gain our trust, whether or not they are peddling BS. And I think some or most of them peddle BS inadvertently because of their educational environment’s culture rather than any aspect of malice or ethical lapse. These folks literally see a segment of their patients respond to what they do, even if it’s the self selectors who would have good outcomes regardless of where they went for care. A broken clock is right twice per day. Chiropractors and NDs might see people improve more than even that, and they suck themselves into their own hype.

Could conventional medical care learn a lot from the folks in retail psuedomedical sales? Maybe. But we try to shy away from placebo and sham treatments due to ethics, and even in the case of psychiatric medication studies, researchers design has a difficult time not reinforcing the notion that meds like antidepressants aren’t effective.

I have a big problem with medications like SSRIs and SNRIs being passed around with little monitoring. I feel this is not only dangerous for the patient but society.

 

[pamac]

SSRIs and SNRIs might just be keeping our immediate world in check. We live in a time where a lot of folks are walking around with a lot of issues caused by the breakdown of the family and abuse/neglect, which are some core stresses that previous generations didn’t deal with at levels similar to what we see today. Counterintuitively, life was tougher a generation or more ago, and people might not have been as outwardly affectionate, or in touch with their feelings, but there was structure to the family and society, even though there were undesireable elements (racism, sexism, elements of inequality... which we still could have overcome without breaking down family units that foster security). People also weren’t blasting their brains with designer illicit drugs like they are now (and I’m not talking about the pharmaceutical industry, I’m referring to bred and enhanced marajuana and methamphetamine).

We used to institutionalize the heck out of anyone showing signs of mental health trouble that today we wouldn’t tolerate, and SSRIs are part of how we keep people out in society instead of warehousing them. For every killer that we look at that took an SSRI (and probably only did so on a non consistent basis), there are thousands, or hundreds of thousands that don’t. It’s not complimentary medicine that is making it so millions of people can go to work and function, it’s SSRIs and SNRIs.

And yes, a double blind placebo study is more important in determining efficacy than personal experience. When we are deciding how to utilize scarce resources, we need to know what works, and what doesn’t. Subjectivity needs to be reduced as much as we can.

I thinks it’s interesting how the naturopathic industry promites backlash against the pharmaceutical industry and gets away with convincing people that the naturopaths aren’t out there with a profit motive themselves. They want no part of regulating what they do, or being held to account.

I agree that getting a script for on a whim for a problem that could be corrected without one is problematic, but I disagree that we don’t adequately understand the effects of our treatments. You might feel that way because a lot of our nursing education at the RN level didn’t focus much on the physiology behind the body, but as you move on in school beyond the interventional focus of nursing, you see that there is a tremendous focus on understanding how the body works, and how pharmacology and treatment interventions fit in to that... and it’s done to a degree that is so much higher than what you see at the naturopathic level. For instance, we see studies that show that a certain compound kills cancer cells. That would be great if that were the case inside the body, and not in a petri dish. The difference between integrating a compound that kills cancer into the body and having it work is the domain of the fields that really know the body well, and that’s conventional medicine... the folks that have mapped the body’s processes to the fine details. Naturopathic medicine has a lot of use of coloidal silver. And so does conventionsl medicine. The difference is that conventional medicine has learned the limits of coloidal silvers true efficacy, whereas nateuropathic medicine seems to be trying to cram it into places it doesn’t belong because they don’t have a broad understanding of physiology. Conventional medicine puts a tremendous amount of energy into determining a mechanism that utilizes all the information we can gather about a phenomenon, and I’m more apt to trust that then the person using their garage as a warehouse for the supplement that they are selling.

 

[RNtoMD87]

SSRIs and SNRIs might just be keeping our immediate world in check. We live in a time where a lot of folks are walking around with a lot of issues caused by the breakdown of the family and abuse/neglect, which are some core stresses that previous generations didn’t deal with at levels similar to what we see today. Counterintuitively, life was tougher a generation or more ago, and people might not have been as outwardly affectionate, or in touch with their feelings, but there was structure to the family and society, even though there were undesireable elements (racism, sexism, elements of inequality... which we still could have overcome without breaking down family units that foster security). People also weren’t blasting their brains with designer illicit drugs like they are now (and I’m not talking about the pharmaceutical industry, I’m referring to bred and enhanced marajuana and methamphetamine).

We used to institutionalize the heck out of anyone showing signs of mental health trouble that today we wouldn’t tolerate, and SSRIs are part of how we keep people out in society instead of warehousing them. For every killer that we look at that took an SSRI (and probably only did so on a non consistent basis), there are thousands, or hundreds of thousands that don’t. It’s not complimentary medicine that is making it so millions of people can go to work and function, it’s SSRIs and SNRIs.

And yes, a double blind placebo study is more important in determining efficacy than personal experience. When we are deciding how to utilize scarce resources, we need to know what works, and what doesn’t. Subjectivity needs to be reduced as much as we can.

I thinks it’s interesting how the naturopathic industry promites backlash against the pharmaceutical industry and gets away with convincing people that the naturopaths aren’t out there with a profit motive themselves. They want no part of regulating what they do, or being held to account.

I agree that getting a script for on a whim for a problem that could be corrected without one is problematic, but I disagree that we don’t adequately understand the effects of our treatments. You might feel that way because a lot of our nursing education at the RN level didn’t focus much on the physiology behind the body, but as you move on in school beyond the interventional focus of nursing, you see that there is a tremendous focus on understanding how the body works, and how pharmacology and treatment interventions fit in to that... and it’s done to a degree that is so much higher than what you see at the naturopathic level. For instance, we see studies that show that a certain compound kills cancer cells. That would be great if that were the case inside the body, and not in a petri dish. The difference between integrating a compound that kills cancer into the body and having it work is the domain of the fields that really know the body well, and that’s conventional medicine... the folks that have mapped the body’s processes to the fine details. Naturopathic medicine has a lot of use of coloidal silver. And so does conventionsl medicine. The difference is that conventional medicine has learned the limits of coloidal silvers true efficacy, whereas nateuropathic medicine seems to be trying to cram it into places it doesn’t belong because they don’t have a broad understanding of physiology. Conventional medicine puts a tremendous amount of energy into determining a mechanism that utilizes all the information we can gather about a phenomenon, and I’m more apt to trust that then the person using their garage as a warehouse for the supplement that they are selling.

Oh I'm not against these medications. Until I found out food allergies were the root of my trouble, my doctor in theater had me on concerta, Wellbutrin, and adderall at the same time. The adderall helped my outwardly anxious symptoms, and the concerta made me mentally more focused. (Just a terrible case of dry mouth). Plus it made it a whole lot easier to pull the trigger and not have the second thoughts most of the fellas had. It wasn't until months later when I got off of the drug I started having the thoughts and flashbacks.

 

[pamac]

And I’m not knocking you at all. I’m solely directing my assessment at the complimentary medicine industry.

I do think we could considerably scale back some of the measures we take in conventional medicines hey are. Our emphasis on accommodating pain at all cost has pushed norcos on patients instead of ibuprophen, and deemphasized proper diet and lifestyle. That’s on us. Weve made it so providers have 15 minutes to deal with each patient (and that includes time to document... so really 10 minutes at most face to face). That’s where a lot of medicines shortcomings lay. The ND can sit there and afford to chat about health promotion. I don’t even think that people facing an ND are seeing better results, they just feel like they are.

But also, keep in mind that the concept that you are thwarting the natural processes just by virtue of taking a pill is an oversimplification. If you have an imbalance of something like thyroid, you aren’t farther ahead by denying yourself an intervention that could actually improve your overall hormone balance, and all the ancillary benefits to that. An SSRI can reset your neuron’s receptors to levels that they would be at under optimum circumstances, so you function as you should naturally. They don’t just flood you with chemicals, they enhance your body’s ability to do what it would it would do on its own if it could. So medicine is actually doing things the natural way, it’s just doing so with the best safeguards and research we can afford.

 

[pamac]

I’m glad you are motivated to be an active participant in your health. If only more folks were, that would make things better all around.

 

[RNtoMD87]

And I’m not knocking you at all. I’m solely directing my assessment at the complimentary medicine industry.

I do think we could considerably scale back some of the measures we take in conventional medicines hey are. Our emphasis on accommodating pain at all cost has pushed norcos on patients instead of ibuprophen, and deemphasized proper diet and lifestyle. That’s on us. Weve made it so providers have 15 minutes to deal with each patient (and that includes time to document... so really 10 minutes at most face to face). That’s where a lot of medicines shortcomings lay. The ND can sit there and afford to chat about health promotion. I don’t even think that people facing an ND are seeing better results, they just feel like they are.

But also, keep in mind that the concept that you are thwarting the natural processes just by virtue of taking a pill is an oversimplification. If you have an imbalance of something like thyroid, you aren’t farther ahead by denying yourself an intervention that could actually improve your overall hormone balance, and all the ancillary benefits to that. An SSRI can reset your neuron’s receptors to levels that they would be at under optimum circumstances, so you function as you should naturally. They don’t just flood you with chemicals, they enhance your body’s ability to do what it would it would do on its own if it could. So medicine is actually doing things the natural way, it’s just doing so with the best safeguards and research we can afford.

Don't get me started on pain. "What's your pain level?" "Haha hang on, the nurse is back. It's a 10/10. I need more dilaudid".

I don't understand people wanting to feel NO pain. I want to feel pain. I don't even like taking a Tylenol unless I have to. I want to KNOW what hurts.

 

[762513]

Britt Marie Hermes has already said everything that needs to be said on this topic ... Naturopathic Diaries

 

[pamac]

A quote I heard long ago resonated with me deeply. “What do you call naturopathic treatment that works?.... medical treatment.” If an approach is effacacious, it is embraced by the medical community. The scientific method is the best we have, and even then, there are still plenty of problems. Psychiatry, for instance, has to grapple with the fact that a lot of medications fare similar to placebo during the testing phase because of the fact that patients recieve a lot of attention when participating in a research study (whether they get the placebo or the medication). That attention produces results simply on its own. But we often have very clear mechanisms maped out. I’ll just don’t see a legitimate place for naturopathy... either we are dealing with providers that aren’t knowledgeable enough to catch important issu s, or they are knowegable in questionably supported interventions that don’t work to fix a problem.