NDBE P/F change?!?!

[Amalgam4U]

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So, they're changing the NDBE in '10. I heard something about clinical focus? How is that going to affect the unspoken rankings of the dental schools, or focus of education at dental schools if at all? What are your opinions on this?

 

[Hysteria24]

So, they're changing the NDBE in '10. I heard something about clinical focus? How is that going to affect the unspoken rankings of the dental schools, or focus of education at dental schools if at all? What are your opinions on this?

There's been some talk over on the dental residency board about this issue:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=6435496

 

[armorshell]

So, they're changing the NDBE in '10. I heard something about clinical focus? How is that going to affect the unspoken rankings of the dental schools, or focus of education at dental schools if at all? What are your opinions on this?

There's interesting potential for several things to happen. If residency programs can't agree or don't create an alternative exam for admission, there could be wild swings in what schools are considered "good" for specializing. P/F schools would likely have to rank their students and would probably become much, much more competitive intramurally and their unusually high specialty numbers would change without an exam to differentiate their lower ranked students.

More likely however, an adjunct exam will be created which introduces a whole new ballgame. I could see a huge disparity forming between "clinical" and "specialty" schools, where some schools teach to the specialty exam and other schools ignore it completely and or downgrade their basic sciences curriculum to make more room for clinical relevant teaching.

This is a really complicated issue, and I feel bad for the people like you trying to make a decision without any information.

 

[tamkhan]

So, how does this affect people's decisions of choosing a dental school, if at all?
Would students prefer schools that rank their students?
Would schools be forced to follow a standardized ranking methodology? I suppose not.

 

[Hysteria24]

Whatever they do, I hope they make up their minds quickly! I’m part of the c/o 2012 students that will be directly affected by this. If there will be some type of “specialty” exam, it would be nice to know sooner than later so its not sprung on all of us a month before were scheduled to take it. Talk about cramming!!!

(Would have also been good to know when deciding on schools a couple months ago when comparing board scores, and amount of time already scheduled into the curriculum at different schools to study for the boards. These factors become moot when things go P/F.)

 

[tamkhan]

On another note, does anyone know the exact formate the boards will be following? I came across it during my Tufts interview, but can't seem to remember. There was something about students having to pass certain 'mandatory pass' areas of the test.

 

[tamkhan]

Whatever they do, I hope they make up their minds quickly! I’m part of the c/o 2012 students that will be directly affected by this. If there will be some type of “specialty” exam, it would be nice to know sooner than later so its not sprung on all of us a month before were scheduled to take it. Talk about cramming!!!

(Would have also been good to know when deciding on schools a couple months ago when comparing board scores, and amount of time already scheduled into the curriculum at different schools to study for the boards. These factors become moot when things go P/F.)

Exactly. I thought APEX at BU would be 3 months of board studying. I guess not!

 

[Hysteria24]

On another note, does anyone know the exact formate the boards will be following? I came across it during my Tufts interview, but can't seem to remember. There was something about students having to pass certain 'mandatory pass' areas of the test.

Not sure. If part I and II are indeed combined wouldn’t this push back the test till further in d-school. I know a lot of schools administer part I in/after second year and do part II later after students get more clinical experience. With clinical experience necessary, I think the timing of the test would change.

 

[blankguy]

Not sure. If part I and II are indeed combined wouldn’t this push back the test till further in d-school. I know a lot of schools administer part I in/after second year and do part II later after students get more clinical experience. With clinical experience necessary, I think the timing of the test would change.

That idea is being floated around. I doubt it will impact us because by the time they decide to combine both parts we will be well into dental school. It may affect the classes after us depending on when they act on this. Ultimately the only way to know how the pass/non-pass will affect everything is to wait and see the details of how it is implemented. I would also ask program directors when it is implemented to see how they are going to evaluate candidates for postgraduate programs.

 

[Hysteria24]

I doubt it will impact us because by the time they decide to combine both parts we will be well into dental school. It may affect the classes after us depending on when they act on this.

I hope you’re correct, but I think it will affect us. According to the schedule at my school, I would normally be taking part I boards in the Spring of 2010. If you read below, this newly voted measure will be in place by January 1, 2010.

A quote from a letter armorshell received (taken from the thread I posted a link to above):

Dear Ryan:

The Joint Commission on National Dental Examinations (JCNDE) voted in their March meeting to make the National Board Dental Examinations Parts I and II Pass/Fail beginning January 1, 2010. The JCNDE is aware that the post-doctoral and specialty programs are using the National Board scores for purposes of admission. This is outside the intended purpose of the examinations (which are intended to be a tool for determing fitness for licensure) and therefore jeopardizes the integrity of the examinations. The post-doctoral and specialty programs have until 2010 to construct new guidelines upon which to base admission.

Additional information will be made available to the Deans of the dental schools as it becomes available.

Thank you!

Keely M. Brennan, BA
Coordinator, Client Support Services
American Dental Association
211 E. Chicago Ave. Ste. 600
Chicago, IL 60611
(p) 312-440-4650
(f) 312-587-4105
[email protected]

 

[SHC1984]

They are just "thinking" about it right? Or they going to change it for sure? (that would really suck if they did change the boards to p/f!!!👎)
anyways why are we worried about it?? the class of 2012 will take their boards before 2010! so it doesn't effect us.

 

[Hysteria24]

They are just "thinking" about it right? Or they going to change it for sure? (that would really suck if they did change the boards to p/f!!!👎)
anyways why are we worried about it?? the class of 2012 will take their boards before 2010! so it doesn't effect us.

It looks as if it was already voted on and passed.

The Jan 1, 2010 conversion will hit all of us “c/o 2012” people right after the holiday break of our second year. I don’t know how it works at Columbia, but both schools I was deciding between administered part I boards to students at the end of their D2 year which would be later in the 2010 year (after the conversion). So the current date will affect some if not many of us!

 

[Chase]

The reasoning given in that reply to armorshell strikes me as really weird.

They think that using the National Board scores for purposes of admission to specialty programs jeopardizes the integrity of the examinations? I hope there's more behind their decision.

The scores on those exams aren't just for applying to post-doc programs. SOME dental students actually use the results from those exams to identify deficiencies in their knowledge. I just got my part II scores back, and although I passed with a decent score, it was interesting to note the fields where I was massively below average. It's made me want to learn more in those areas.

Furthermore, as other posters have mentioned, the medical field uses the USMLE for admissions to residency programs, and they haven't had any problems.

I feel like this decision is bullsh*t; ADA trying to flex their muscle. Just like the state licensure exams (WREB, NERB) and all their B.S.

I'm glad that i'm graduating shortly and don't have to deal with this crap.

 

[blankguy]

What has been passed is the passed/non-passed grading of the boards. What I was referring to in my earlier post is the combining of parts I and parts II. That idea is being floated around. At this point it is just being floated to see what the input the commission is going to get from the academic community. Even if they acted on it by then we would be well into dental school. The only thing that will affect us is the passed/non-passed thing, we will be the first class being graded as such.

 

[Hysteria24]

What has been passed is the passed/non-passed grading of the boards. What I was referring to in my earlier post is the combining of parts I and parts II.

I gottcha...

The only thing that will affect us is the passed/non-passed thing, we will be the first class being graded as such.

I can't wait! 🙄

...Actually now that I think about it the whole P/F thing sounds cool and less stressful. The mystery becomes what will be required for specialty programs. And like I said earlier, now with boards out of the picture for specialties, I hope they give us 2012 students a heads up before we get too close and lose out on time to prepare for whatever it may be.


.

 

[INFNITE]

now, i wonder whether the folks who passed this resolution took the student representation into consideration (ASDA). I can't imagine having the national boards becoming pass/fail would be favored by dental students simply because the board scores has been for decades used as the meter stick for deciding a students qualifications to get into specialty programs. reverting back to letter grades in all dental schools won't work either since every school is graded differently, and have different curriculum structure (clinical schools vs. schools heavy on medical curriculum). this especially affects the class of 2012 since you guys will basically be the guinea pigs of the new system. who knows....maybe it's a way by ADA to force dental students to focus more on clinical training than getting high exam scores?

 

[SHC1984]

It looks as if it was already voted on and passed.

The Jan 1, 2010 conversion will hit all of us “c/o 2012” people right after the holiday break of our second year. I don’t know how it works at Columbia, but both schools I was deciding between administered part I boards to students at the end of their D2 year which would be later in the 2010 year (after the conversion). So the current date will affect some if not many of us!

I am actually not sure if Columbia students take their part I after D1 or D2...😕 Hopfully its after D1, why do they have to change this? its so stupid!!😡
I guess class rank, school name, recommendation and research will be the MOST important factor now for speciality placement...but thats my guess. God this is really going to suck big time! 👎

 

[INFNITE]

Columbia students take the boards after 2nd year during the summer. there are plans however to compact the medical curriculum to 1.5 years and have a more integrated preclinical-clincal transition during spring of 2nd year, but not sure if thats gonna be put into effect for 2012 (under the new curriculum, you could technically cram the boards during the fall semester and try to take it before january 1st). so yeah, who knows what the heck is gonna happen now for you guys. pray for good luck? =P

 

[SHC1984]

Columbia students take the boards after 2nd year during the summer. there are plans however to compact the medical curriculum to 1.5 years and have a more integrated preclinical-clincal transition during spring of 2nd year, but not sure if thats gonna be put into effect for 2012 (under the new curriculum, you could technically cram the boards during the fall semester and try to take it before january 1st). so yeah, who knows what the heck is gonna happen now for you guys. pray for good luck? =P

I hope we are given the option to CRAM the boards before 2010! It would be even better if they will give class of 2012 the option to take the boards after D1 (they should since this new change obviously suck major a**)
So what do you think is most important now? class rank? school name (Columbia would be great at that! 😉)? recommendation? or Research?
I am leaning towards class rank/school name....

 

[INFNITE]

you can probably try to take it after D1, but it will be very difficult since stuff like pathology and microbiology are huge parts of the D2 curriculum at Columbia (and they make up a good chunk of the exam) unless you self-teach these courses during the 2 months off after the 1st year (actually possible due to the wealth of study material available online already like lecture transcripts and audio), but still, that's cramming in a year's worth of medical courses in 2 months. you'll drive yourself crazy. My guess is that class rank will play a bigger role (i dont know if Columbia will revert back to A-B-C grading scheme, but don't think there's a hard set class ranking in place right now either.) The bigger question is how do you compare Columbia students to students from other schools? maybe use GRE since some specialty programs require that anyway? who knows....but i'm sure you guys will be okay. i'm sure the deans and faculty among different dental schools and specialty programs are pondering the exact same thing.

 

[SHC1984]

you can probably try to take it after D1, but it will be very difficult since stuff like pathology and microbiology are huge parts of the D2 curriculum at Columbia (and they make up a good chunk of the exam) unless you self-teach these courses during the 2 months off after the 1st year (actually possible due to the wealth of study material available online already like lecture transcripts and audio), but still, that's cramming in a year's worth of medical courses in 2 months. you'll drive yourself crazy. My guess is that class rank will play a bigger role (i dont know if Columbia will revert back to A-B-C grading scheme, but don't think there's a hard set class ranking in place right now either.) The bigger question is how do you compare Columbia students to students from other schools? maybe use GRE since some specialty programs require that anyway? who knows....but i'm sure you guys will be okay. i'm sure the deans and faculty among different dental schools and specialty programs are pondering the exact same thing.

This sounds sooooo complicated! I guess 2012 is a unlucky year or something...🙄
Anyhow I hope Columbia's name will help with us comparing with other students....Harvard and Columbia are known for their excellent speciality placements so I hope the name helps BIG TIME...

 

[INFNITE]

also, the thing about Columbia is that everybody's so gung-ho here, competition is pretty tough. it used to be that even if you had mediocre rankings but you rock the boards (as well as doing all the standard brown-nosing and all that), you have a shot in getting into specialty programs like oral surgery. i mean, they took out the letter grade scale to promote more harmonious relationship among students within classes, but placing more emphasis on rankings will only revert the school back to the stone ages of cut-throatness.

 

[Hysteria24]

I hope we are given the option to CRAM the boards before 2010! It would be even better if they will give class of 2012 the option to take the boards after D1 (they should since this new change obviously suck major a**)

I'm not so sure if this would accomplish anything. Most 2012 students applying to specialty programs will have taken the boards after the change over and will have a P/F score. If one school like Columbia rushed their 2012 students to take the boards before the change over, they would be the only 2012 students with scores, and the scores could not be compared with students at any other school (the way they are now). If 90% of the applicants have a P as their score, a 95 by a Columbia grad can only used to differentiate between other Columbia grads, and that's what class rank is for.

maybe use GRE since some specialty programs require that anyway?

This has been brought up a few times, but I am just not a fan of this at all, and question why it's relevant to some programs already. (Although I am aware that some schools require it for all of their grad masters programs regardless of profession.)

Having taken it for grad school, it tests on things most of us have stopped using or worrying about since early college or even high school. I don't care if my oral surgeon can tell me how many degrees are in an octagon, or has a vocabulary so big he can use 500 different synonyms to tell me he is removing my tooth. I think the DAT would be more relevant than the GRE.


.

 

[Hysteria24]

This sounds sooooo complicated! I guess 2012 is a unlucky year or something...🙄

Yes… I’m not a fan of being a guinea pig with so much at stake.

What will be even more fun is if they create some other test for specialty programs. Then we will all be going into take that cold with no established study material/dental decks, and it will be up the individual schools to figure out the format and hopefully get their students ready for it (all in under 2 years from now).

 

[moralbrain]

This sounds sooooo complicated! I guess 2012 is a unlucky year or something...🙄
Anyhow I hope Columbia's name will help with us comparing with other students....Harvard and Columbia are known for their excellent speciality placements so I hope the name helps BIG TIME...

cracks me up BIG TIME

 

[SHC1984]

cracks me up BIG TIME

Well the name will have to help a lot more now that the exam is pass/fail. I mean if everyone has PASS, who will you pick? a student with a PASSING score from Harvard/Columbia or some other school? since the numbers are gone, the name will have to play a bigger factor...

 

[Hysteria24]

since the numbers are gone, the name will have to play a bigger factor...

There’s always the other 99% of the application:

GPA, rank, research, extracurriculars, personal statement, etc.

 

[SHC1984]

Having taken it for grad school, it tests on things most of us have stopped using or worrying about since early college or even high school. I don’t care if my oral surgeon can tell me how many degrees are in an octagon, or has a vocabulary so big he can use 500 different synonyms to tell me he is removing my tooth. I think the DAT would be more relevant than the GRE.


.

Using the GRE as a new scale sounds like a good idea...there needs to be a exam that can show who is more suitable for specializing...DAT would be fine as well...there needs to be a NUMBER involved...pass/fail will not work well...

 

[SHC1984]

There’s always the other 99% of the application:

GPA, rank, research, extracurriculars, personal statement, etc.

I agree with rank, research, extracurriculars....however some schools like Harvard and Columbia has no GPA...

 

[Hysteria24]

I agree with rank, research, extracurriculars....however some schools like Harvard and Columbia has no GPA...

I see.. I don't have a clue what will happen there. Same type of thing goes for USC students who are not ranked.

 

[SHC1984]

I see.. I don't have a clue what will happen there. Same type of thing goes for USC students who are not ranked.

Thats why I think school name will have to matter a lot more now...
Some schools have no gpa, some schools have no rank, so the only things that CAN matter is school name and research...what else is there w/o a board score and gpa?

 

[Hysteria24]

what else is there w/o a board score and gpa?

A brand new admissions test for students seeking admittance into specialty programs? It’s the only thing that can easily compare students between different schools (hence the part I boards).

 

[Amalgam4U]

wow. confusing.

So...big choice UCLA or UOP?

haha. I'm really committed to UCLA and i <3 their program, but got into UOP off the waitlist recently.

And seeing as the different structure of the schools (UCLA w/ didactics and 4 years, UOP clinical and 3) it seems to be a much different choice now than it was when I didn't know about the board change...

 

[SanOnofre2002]

what else is there w/o a board score and gpa?

There's always attractiveness. Which in case, I'm screwed!

 

[SHC1984]

There's always attractiveness.

Thats true!😀

 

[SHC1984]

A brand new admissions test for students seeking admittance into specialty programs? It’s the only thing that can easily compare students between different schools (hence the part I boards).

New test? Biochemistry, Microbiology, pathology, etc will NOT change...so I don't see how a new test can be "different" from the old test...the only thing that can change is grading...percentage VS pass/fail...

 

[SHC1984]

wow. confusing.

So...big choice UCLA or UOP?

haha. I'm really committed to UCLA and i <3 their program, but got into UOP off the waitlist recently.

And seeing as the different structure of the schools (UCLA w/ didactics and 4 years, UOP clinical and 3) it seems to be a much different choice now than it was when I didn't know about the board change...

How come you didn't choose Columbia? 🙂

If I had UCLA vs UoP I would pick UCLA.

 

[Hysteria24]

So...big choice UCLA or UOP?

I am pretty sure UOP takes boards after the first year (due to the condensed curriculum), which would happen in 2009. Therefore people starting at Pacific this year will not be affected by this change.

Just so you know…

 

[Hysteria24]

New test? Biochemistry, Microbiology, pathology, etc will NOT change...so I don't see how a new test can be "different" from the old test...the only thing that can change is grading...percentage VS pass/fail...

It looks like the board exam is changing to P/F because the ADA says it was not designed to help differentiate students for specialties and it is better for the ADA to make it go back to its original purpose.

However, there is nothing stopping the specialty programs from creating a test very similar to the boards (testing all the science topics you mention) that will give an actual number score. If this were to happen, they could also add and/or eliminate things that would gear it exactly for the specialty programs and what they want candidates to be competent in.

 

[Hysteria24]

If I had UCLA vs UoP I would pick UCLA.

For the name alone?

Sorry... couldn't resist. 😉

 

[SHC1984]

For the name alone?

Sorry... couldn't resist. 😉

I like LA better! 😛

 

[mydat]

Thats why I think school name will have to matter a lot more now...
Some schools have no gpa, some schools have no rank, so the only things that CAN matter is school name and research...what else is there w/o a board score and gpa?

Very unlikely.

The focus of the new standard will be more clinic oriented.

The school name won't matter at all, if there is such thing.

 

[SHC1984]

It looks like the board exam is changing to P/F because the ADA says it was not designed to help differentiate students for specialties and it is better for the ADA to make it go back to its original purpose.

However, there is nothing stopping the specialty programs from creating a test very similar to the boards (testing all the science topics you mention) that will give an actual number score. If this were to happen, they could also add and/or eliminate things that would gear it exactly for the specialty programs and what they want candidates to be competent in.

And what would that original purpose be???

 

[INFNITE]

Very unlikely.

The focus of the new standard will be more clinic oriented.

The school name won't matter at all, if there is such thing.

and how are they gonna examine that? using the NERBs, WREBs and all those licensure exams? or are you talking about clinical theory (like NBDE Part II)? if something is not broken, don't fix it. I believe the ADA just made a huge mess.

 

[Hysteria24]

And what would that original purpose be???

Exactly what was stated in the letter from the ADA representative:

Dear Ryan:

The Joint Commission on National Dental Examinations (JCNDE) voted in their March meeting to make the National Board Dental Examinations Parts I and II Pass/Fail beginning January 1, 2010. The JCNDE is aware that the post-doctoral and specialty programs are using the National Board scores for purposes of admission. This is outside the intended purpose of the examinations (which are intended to be a tool for determing fitness for licensure) and therefore jeopardizes the integrity of the examinations. The post-doctoral and specialty programs have until 2010 to construct new guidelines upon which to base admission.

Additional information will be made available to the Deans of the dental schools as it becomes available.

Thank you!

Keely M. Brennan, BA
Coordinator, Client Support Services
American Dental Association
211 E. Chicago Ave. Ste. 600
Chicago, IL 60611
(p) 312-440-4650
(f) 312-587-4105
[email protected]

 

[armorshell]

I am pretty sure UOP takes boards after the first year (due to the condensed curriculum), which would happen in 2009. Therefore people starting at Pacific this year will not be affected by this change.

Just so you know…

Actually, because Pacific student can take their board anytime in between the end of 6th quarter and end of 8th quarter, the class of 2011 will likely be able to choose which board exam they want to take, graded or ungraded.

 

[armorshell]

and how are they gonna examine that? using the NERBs, WREBs and all those licensure exams? or are you talking about clinical theory (like NBDE Part II)? if something is not broken, don't fix it. I believe the ADA just made a huge mess.

I actually think its a great idea for the most part. The huge percentage of dental students are going to pursue general dentistry, and the boards is more of a hurdle than something they need to blow out of the water. Plus adding a clinical focus will allow schools who so choose to move away from "teaching to the boards", or at least have a more applicable focus when they do.

For all you people having a conniption fit, nothing is going to change significantly. They'll have an alternate admissions exam which will probably be exactly like the boards ready for everyone to take come 2010. The only thing that will be weird is that, since only a small portion of dental students will take this adjunct exam, seeing how it's scored will be very interesting. I'd imagine it would be on a fixed scale like the DAT as opposed to a percentile-ranking system like the current boards.

 

[Hysteria24]

For all you people having a conniption fit, nothing is going to change significantly. They'll have an alternate admissions exam which will probably be exactly like the boards ready for everyone to take come 2010.

You always argue that getting high board scores and specializing has less to do with the school a student attends and more to do with the student him/herself.

I believe a new admissions test will, at least for the first year or two, reflect greater on the school and less on the students. No longer can a motivated student start studying things early like dental decks, old exams, and a plethora of review books. None of these things will exist in the short term when the new test comes out.

The only resources us 2012'ers will have is our school and the didactic material we get there, as well as maybe an outline of topics put out by the new test's administrators. I would think the short-term advantage would go to the schools that emphasize didactics (covering a broad area), and hinder students at "clinical" schools who would normally supplement with outside materials along the way.

 

[armorshell]

You always argue that getting high board scores and specializing has less to do with the school a student attends and more to do with the student him/herself.

I believe a new admissions test will, at least for the first year or two, reflect greater on the school and less on the students. No longer can a motivated student start studying things early like dental decks, old exams, and a plethora of review books. None of these things will exist in the short term when the new test comes out.

The only resources us 2012’ers will have is our school and the didactic material we get there, as well as maybe an outline of topics put out by the new test’s administrators. I would think the short-term advantage would go to the schools that emphasize didactics (covering a broad area), and hinder students at “clinical” schools who would normally supplement with outside materials along the way.

That would be assuming that whatever test they come up with was significantly different from the old boards, which I doubt it would be. However, if that were the case I believe your point would be valid. I glean a lot of direction on what to study from old exams and review materials.

 

[SanOnofre2002]

I believe a new admissions test will, at least for the first year or two, reflect greater on the school and less on the students. No longer can a motivated student start studying things early like dental decks, old exams, and a plethora of review books. None of these things will exist in the short term when the new test comes out.

The only resources us 2012’ers will have is our school and the didactic material we get there, as well as maybe an outline of topics put out by the new test’s administrators. I would think the short-term advantage would go to the schools that emphasize didactics (covering a broad area), and hinder students at “clinical” schools who would normally supplement with outside materials along the way.

I would think that any new alternate test would be something that pretty well mirrors the info NBDE I tests you on. So I'd hope that the same resources could be used to study for it. It would basically be like taking the same exam twice. And if the NBDE doesn't change in content, clinical schools should have no reason to change their curriculum, and you'd get the same preperation you otherwise would have had.