NDs lecturing at DO schools?

[Siggy]

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The biggest issue I see here is the fact that you are going to lecture..

Some schools require attendance via quizzes or sign in sheets.
Some schools will start this requirements after you've already started school, thus giving you no option but attend lectures since you're stuck with the bait and switch.

 

[NurWollen]

Some schools require attendance via quizzes or sign in sheets.
Some schools will start this requirements after you've already started school, thus giving you no option but attend lectures since you're stuck with the bait and switch.

That sucks. My life has been so much better since I decided to quit going to class. I have more time with my wife and kids, I get more sleep, and my grades are better, ftw.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Some schools require attendance via quizzes or sign in sheets.
Some schools will start this requirements after you've already started school, thus giving you no option but attend lectures since you're stuck with the bait and switch.

Whoa. Which school pulls that kind of bait and switch? That's so wrong.

 

[JustPlainBill]

So we just had a naturopathic doctor come in at my DO school today and give us a lecture on naturopathic medicine as well as homeopathy and other forms of alternative medicine. And no this wasn't some kind of optional seminar for people interested, it was part of our normal curriculum. This lecture focused on herbal remedies, general intro to CAM, etc. and was ended with a prayer/meditation session.

Throughout the lecture, the ND kept lumping NDs and DOs into the same group, saying things like "we as physicians" (referring to NDs and DOs as a group) and remarking on the similarities between osteopathic and naturopathic medicine and how the MD's don't practice holistically like "us" (propaganda proliferated commonly at my school that I also disagree with). I found it all very offensive to the modern and evidence-based nature of osteopathic medicine today and feel like things like this just continue to hold back the profession.

Am I overreacting? I asked several people in my class what they thought of it, and no one seemed to think it was a big deal. A lot of students in my class are into alternative medicine and we have a CAM interest group. We also take a required CAM block taught by an ND during our second year. Is this common at other schools? And no, we aren't one of the newer schools....we're actually at one of the more established and respected DO schools, which is another reason I find all of this especially embarrassing.

Well, this sounds like a load of excrement --- We had an ND in our class who was very impressed with herself. Had published anywhere from 17 to 35 papers (depending on which day you were lucky enough to be accosted) and anywhere from 2-4 books (again depending on day). Seemed miffed that the professors weren't impressed with the sunshine that glowed from her external anal sphincter. Actually argued with a board certified, long standing DO/PhD Endocrinologist over the role of DHEA and it's vital importance to something or other. Extremely narcissistic personality. Was convinced that Vitamin D would cure all of the HTN in all people, especially African Americans. Did well on boards and went off to a primary care residency. Don't know if they ever completed it but rumor has it they struggled and got called on the carpet numerous times for trying to pull alternative medicine treatments on hospitalized patients. Was miffed that we weren't taught IV vitamin therapies and would huff/puff that each lecture was 'beneath them'. When offered an opportunity by our CAM group, some of the profs attended just to see what the lecture would be on -- yep, Vitamin D with a bunch of "papers" that were, upon closer inspection, underpowered studies that were poorly designed but cobbled together to seem to support this persons position.

Just made me want to puke ---

During my pre-med days, I almost got sucked into chiropractic "medicine" and "Applied Kinesiology" and the "Toftness Technique" -- and listened to the DC tell patients that he knew "everthing that was taught in medical school plus chiropractic medicine".....

When I came into DO school, I really wanted to learn osteopathy and OMT -- I was jazzed on it...after seeing the paucity of research at the time and the sheer bull**** explanations that we were exposed to, I'm done with it. Taking allopathic boards and pretty much done wth the AOA from here on.....enough of this...

 

[xerxesc]

A gross error of bias on your part. Making broad sweeping statements that they reject germ theory, vaccines, believe in energy fields being manipulated and prescribing water is absurd in my mind. Rejecting emperical evidence?? Wow. Just as the ND was clearly biased in the OPs class, for which you have vehemently attacked, can you not see the same bias in every one of your posts.

To clarify, I do not believe in energy fields being manipulated, I vaccinate my children, I do believe in germ theory, I have been involved in multiple DBPC trials and I was a practicing ND (SCNM grad) for 6 years before deciding to become an orthopedic surgeon. The first two years of SCNM was exactly the same as the first two years of my Osteopathic Education, the clinical years are highly different. I also completely an intern year after graduation in family medicine. I prescribed antibiotics, recommended annual preventative exams and tests, used evidence based decision flow sheets/algorithms.. however I focused heavily on lifestyle changes, dietary modifications, exercise, etc which you will rarely find in a FPs office now a days (You have a lot to learn here, your premedical education is showing - please tell me how to institute the cardiac diet, consistent carbohydrate diet, renal diet, low sodium diet, gluten free diet, rotational diet, hypoallergenic diet, ketogenic diet,etc -- ALL diets used in mainstream medicine but lacking in the primary care office). I've seen my training in the ND world make tremendous gains for patients and change their lives, not only when I was a practicing ND but also during my internship year. I'm sure you scoff at this.

If you think every physician practices based on gold standard techniques, evidence based medicine, only prescribes FDA approved therapeutic medicines you are sorely in trouble. There is more "art" and "theory" of medicine then you will ever think.

I know you and I will never agree, that's fine, we come from completely different worlds probably. But I do hope throughout medical school you learn quickly to be a little less harsh in your judgments and more open to discussion on topics that don't make sense to you. You'll find it will help your patients immensely as a resident and in your future career as a doctor. 'Nuff said, I'll let you have the last argument and the readers can pick apart the pros and cons of both our viewpoints (I am aware of my bias).

Are you really becoming an orthopedic surgeon? Cognitive Dissonance much? You state that the first two years of SCNM was exactly the same as the first two years of your Osteopathic Medical Education - So you studied the nonsense that is Homeopathy, Botanical Medicine, Oriental Medicine, Mind-Body Medicine at what DO School?

 

[xerxesc]

Someone let me know if he starts making sense.

He was making sense; you however, are not...

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Are you really an orthopedic surgeon? Cognitive Dissonance much? You state that the first two years of SCNM was exactly the same as the first two years of your Osteopathic Medical Education - So you studied the nonsense that is Homeopathy, Botanical Medicine, Oriental Medicine, Mind-Body Medicine at what DO School?

Speaking of not making sense, you might want to re-read the post you're replying to and this time, read slower.

 

[xerxesc]

Speaking of not making sense, you might want to re-read the post you're replying to and this time, read slower.

You're still not making sense, Elisabeth...

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

You're still not making sense, Elisabeth...

Perhaps the problem is on your end. As I said, re-read the post you replied to and acknowledge the error of your ways.

 

[JustPlainBill]

...I prescribed antibiotics, recommended annual preventative exams and tests, used evidence based decision flow sheets/algorithms.. however I focused heavily on lifestyle changes, dietary modifications, exercise, etc which you will rarely find in a FPs office now a days (You have a lot to learn here, your premedical education is showing - please tell me how to institute the cardiac diet, consistent carbohydrate diet, renal diet, low sodium diet, gluten free diet, rotational diet, hypoallergenic diet, ketogenic diet,etc -- ALL diets used in mainstream medicine but lacking in the primary care office).....

So as you said we could ---

Should be preventive -- common mistake -- in fact, so common that the word 'preventative' is now accepted in the vernacular. Originally, no such word existed....

Institute noted diets -- easy -- write the order for a dietary consult on inpatient -- in the real world you don't have the time to "institute" the various diets listed... In the outpatient setting, write the referral and send to a dietitian. Done.

 

[Dharma]

. Seemed miffed that the professors weren't impressed with the sunshine that glowed from her external anal sphincter.

Hahahaha! At least she could feel it, right?

 

[IslandStyle808]

first and foremost there are two types of NDs, ones who get a 2 year online correspondence degree and another group who attend a 4 year program set up similar to the traditional medical school model (2 years of didactics, 2 years of clinicals) Actually, if you look at the historical background the first 4 year "medical school" in the United States was a Naturopathic School.

The NDs who attend 4 years of education can also proceed into a one year internship. It is this group of NDs who by law in 17 states are classified as primary care physicians, can prescribe medications, order labs, diagnose and in some states bill insurance.

Its a confusing issue and doesnt make sense, but its important to know who you're bashing and who you're calling "not a physician" - since state and government law actually dictates otherwise in many circumstances. They technically are your colleagues (this was the same issue between MDs and DOs in the 40s-50s until the vietnam war era bridged the gap between the two)

There are quite a few CAM therapies that are much more proven and scientifically based than many of the procedures/medications I use on a consistent basis in the hospital (probiotics come to mind) not to mention that OMM has some of the poorest research (show me good research on fascia release, lymphatic drainage, cranial manipualtion, counterstrain, etc) yet its the foundation of our profession. I'm sure you as medical students are just too busy to actually really read the good research out there. Which is a sad state. You should in reality be more up to date than your attendings/professors as to the new research on multiple modalities. As a resident I am consistently discussing new treatments and modalities to my attendings, and often they change their stance and make adjustments (just recently the use of tranexamic acid has become standard with our attendings due to our group of residents pushing for its use because new research was pointing to its benefit, plus we got tired of the bloody post op dressings and pulling drains). Oh we use dakins solutions all the time in orthopedics (wasnt that a CAM therapy a previous poster bashed on???? broaden the mind)

Yes I think it should be required to learn about CAM therapy, its positive and negative effects (as was discussed in a previous post about the metastatic breast cancer). Often times what was once thought was CAM is now the preferred treament with supportable data, AND we need to be understanding to our patients who are misinformed in many situations. Calling them stupid (as one premed poster did about steve jobs - have you ever seen a whipple?) won't win them over. We need to respect their choice, inform them out of compassion of their mistakes and give better recommendations, often meeting them in the middle.

Lastly - as an informed medical student that you all seem to be, throwing the word qwackery and qwack around probably isnt the best use of vernacular. The word quack was applied in the early 1900s to the physicians who used quicksilver (ie mercury) for their treatments. These were the founding fathers of pharmacology and modern medicine. Quite ironic.

All teaching is biased, relax, its not the end of the world. There are more things to be upset about in medical school - like rising tuition prices - than a 2 hour lecture from an ND. Bring the hate.

Orthojoe you have some of the best posts on here!

The research behind those treatments and a person who know how to administer them correctly is the most important thing.

 

[DD214_DOC]

Does anyone know if WVSOM still has that weird shrine-like bust of A.T. Still standing in the recess of a hallway? I swear it also had incense around it, but perhaps that is a part of the memory I created.

 

[Biology4Life84]

IMO, the difference between pharmaceuticals and natural remedies is standards. Sure, tried and true medicine has side affects but for the most part it helps the majority of people. I wonder which has more occurrences of success, alternative medicine or FDA approved medicine? I bet the latter. And I bet that alternative medicine is not as consistent at healing either.

 

[DD214_DOC]

I have some Placebo to sell you