Neuroanatomy and Neurosurgery

[MedicineNewb]

Well, I read a lot of great threads here on this subject before starting a new thread about this. I'm loving the unique information each thread has given, and the different opinions of teaching methods.

I am a boring type of person and like the old-school plain memorization for this method. A set of flashcards would be cool, but not really needed. As long as the book has good writing, complete information needed to pass the USMLE, and not too many/too little pictures.

I have liked what I have seen, heard in reviews, and read myself inside "High-Yield Neuroanatomy" by James D. Fix. It looks basic to what you need to graduate medical school and pass the USMLE. But is it enough coverage for a high caliber medical school?

However, I was also debating buying "Neuroanatomy: An Atlas of Structures, Sections, and Systems, North American Edition" by Duane E. Haines. It looks to me to be directed towards facts and knowledge rather than ease of learning. I don't mind, I would actually rather not have the ease of learning. However, it it going overboard? Would this over complicate things? I wouldn't want to remember some rare diseases and forget the commonly tested upon ones.

I am getting the book so I can go into neurosurgery later, so I hope for a book suitable to satisfy a top tier school.

I would appreciate a compare-and-contrast from some who may have read both.

Thank you in advance 😉

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[engineeredout]

Well, I read a lot of great threads here on this subject before starting a new thread about this. I'm loving the unique information each thread has given, and the different opinions of teaching methods.

I am a boring type of person and like the old-school plain memorization for this method. A set of flashcards would be cool, but not really needed. As long as the book has good writing, complete information needed to pass the USMLE, and not too many/too little pictures.

I have liked what I have seen, heard in reviews, and read myself inside "High-Yield Neuroanatomy" by James D. Fix. It looks basic to what you need to graduate medical school and pass the USMLE. But is it enough coverage for an ivy league school?

However, I was also debating buying "Neuroanatomy: An Atlas of Structures, Sections, and Systems, North American Edition" by Duane E. Haines. It looks to me to be directed towards facts and knowledge rather than ease of learning. I don't mind, I would actually rather not have the ease of learning. However, it it going overboard? Would this over complicate things? I wouldn't want to remember some rare diseases and forget the commonly tested upon ones.

I am getting the book so I can go into neurosurgery later, so I hope for a book suitable to satisfy an ivy league school.

I would appreciate a compare-and-contrast from some who may have read both.

Thank you in advance 😉

A premed trying to pick out a neuroanatomy book "worthy of ivy league" to get prepared to land that neurosurgery residency probably counts as going overboard.


FWIW, since I don't go to an ivy league school, we use "Dr. Seuss Presents Neuroanatomy". Its got plenty of pictures. They don't give us a more advanced book cause we wouldn't be able to handle it.

 

[redsquareblack]

Well, I read a lot of great threads here on this subject before starting a new thread about this. I'm loving the unique information each thread has given, and the different opinions of teaching methods.

I am a boring type of person and like the old-school plain memorization for this method. A set of flashcards would be cool, but not really needed. As long as the book has good writing, complete information needed to pass the USMLE, and not too many/too little pictures.

I have liked what I have seen, heard in reviews, and read myself inside "High-Yield Neuroanatomy" by James D. Fix. It looks basic to what you need to graduate medical school and pass the USMLE. But is it enough coverage for an ivy league school?

However, I was also debating buying "Neuroanatomy: An Atlas of Structures, Sections, and Systems, North American Edition" by Duane E. Haines. It looks to me to be directed towards facts and knowledge rather than ease of learning. I don't mind, I would actually rather not have the ease of learning. However, it it going overboard? Would this over complicate things? I wouldn't want to remember some rare diseases and forget the commonly tested upon ones.

I am getting the book so I can go into neurosurgery later, so I hope for a book suitable to satisfy an ivy league school.

I would appreciate a compare-and-contrast from some who may have read both.

Thank you in advance 😉

I'd proooooobably not worry about this too much at this point.

 

[Handinhand]

Trick question. If you want to go to an ivy league and be a neurosurgeon you should already know all that stuff.

Side note: Biggest gunner ever?

 

[swamprat]

Are you actually in a neuroanatomy course? If so, get the book the teacher recomends. If not, you must be joking?

 

[MilkmanAl]

It looks basic to what you need to graduate medical school and pass the USMLE. But is it enough coverage for an ivy league school?

I doubt it. In fact, med school will probably be a waste of time for you after attending an Ivy for college. I'd go ahead and knock out Steps 1, 2, and 3 now to save yourself a few years of school and training.

For those of you actually staring down the barrel of med school neuroscience, I highly recommend the Haines atlas. I'm about as anti-text as it gets, but that book was crucial. It makes learning all the brain cross sections about as easy as it could possibly be. Think of it like a hybrid of Netter's and Rohen's with some extra clinical stuff thrown in but only for the brain. It's really, really helpful.

 

[MedicineNewb]

A premed trying to pick out a neuroanatomy book "worthy of ivy league" to get prepared to land that neurosurgery residency probably counts as going overboard.


FWIW, since I don't go to an ivy league school, we use "Dr. Seuss Presents Neuroanatomy". Its got plenty of pictures. They don't give us a more advanced book cause we wouldn't be able to handle it.

Is this a joke or serious? I searched it up on google and well, your post was the only relatively related result. If it is a joke, good one.

Now can we please stay on topic people, you learn something new every day. I just happened to have a brain fart. 😱

Trick question. If you want to go to an ivy league and be a neurosurgeon you should already know all that stuff.

Side note: Biggest gunner ever?

Actually, I am a senior in high school. I posted this in the allopathic forum because most of the premeds didn't know about neuroanatomy books.

Side note: I didn't know that Ivy League was a term pertaining to sports colleges. I thought that it was a term relating to "top tier" or something like that. 🙄

Are you actually in a neuroanatomy course? If so, get the book the teacher recomends. If not, you must be joking?

No I am a senior in high school, but I have heard that a lot of people are having problems in this course. If I look briefly at it every now and then I can self-educate. Neurosurgery residency is pretty hard to match in 😉

I doubt it. In fact, med school will probably be a waste of time for you after attending an Ivy for college. I'd go ahead and knock out Steps 1, 2, and 3 now to save yourself a few years of school and training.

For those of you actually staring down the barrel of med school neuroscience, I highly recommend the Haines atlas. I'm about as anti-text as it gets, but that book was crucial. It makes learning all the brain cross sections about as easy as it could possibly be. Think of it like a hybrid of Netter's and Rohen's with some extra clinical stuff thrown in but only for the brain. It's really, really helpful.

Yes, as a matter of fact I meant to say "high caliber" or "top tier" medical school, not Ivy League. Until today, I thought that was what Ivy League meant. If I have not yet made myself look like a fool multiple times, I will just stop now. Even though this was all pretty harsh, thanks for being the only decent soul on here to forgive a poor high school student.

Back on subject, I still want to learn neuroanatomy. Am I crazy? Heck yes, but I am fascinated by it. I also assume that anyone seriously willing to live the supposed "totally grim and schedule-bound lifestyle" of a neurosurgeon is already passed sanity. So are we talking about the "Color Atlas of Anatomy: A Photographic Study of the Human Body" by Johannes W. Rohen? If so, I think that you painted a good description of Rohen's Atlas. And well I already have Netter's Atlas under the Christmas tree. Would you describe Haine's atlas as a well organized, easy to lean, and text heavy neuroanatomy book? If so, you just sold it to me 😉

 

[Handinhand]

What good is knowing neuroanatomy if you don't understand how the nervous system works? I'm a neuroscience major and I won't take neuroanatomy until spring of senior year. There is no good in knowing that the occipital lobe is the vision center of the brain if you can't understand how it processes retinal information into a 'picture'.

 

[TheMightySmiter]

OP, you're already a senior in high school and you're just NOW thinking about USMLE?? 😱 I don't know if you'll ever be able to catch up, you're so far behind!!

 

[zayka]

I think this is an ad/spam for textbooks...

 

[c5212]

Yes, as a matter of fact I meant to say "high caliber" or "top tier" medical school, not Ivy League. Until today, I thought that was what Ivy League meant.........

.....Back on subject, I still want to learn neuroanatomy. Am I crazy? Heck yes, but I am fascinated by it.

First: if you are just figuring out what an Ivy is... you might want to slow down a bit and not get so riled and antsy over getting in to a neurosurgery residency, which is (if you can make it) NINE FREAKIN' YEARS AWAY!!!
Second: If you want to learn about neuroanatomy, please do, it seems to be an extremely intriguing subject. Please do not try to master the subject by reading a few books because you think doing that will put you a step ahead everybody else who is gunning for a NS spot; it won't.

Just my two cents 😎

 

[MilkmanAl]

If you're in high school, you should be posting in the hSDN forum. Plenty of people go there, and it's free of much of the cynicism Pre-Allo has to offer. You should also totally stop worrying about med school and enjoy your life while you can. Even assuming you don't have anything better to do than bury yourself in books, you're not going to get anything out of reading a neuroanatomic atlas. It's confusing enough when you know what you're looking at. Without any background, it's a complete waste of time. Go booze it up with some buddies or something. You'll spend PLENTY of time studying through college and med school, assuming you stay on that path. Don't screw yourself out of having fun while what you do with your time is largely irrelevant.

Moved to hSDN.

 

[MedicineNewb]

What good is knowing neuroanatomy if you don't understand how the nervous system works? I'm a neuroscience major and I won't take neuroanatomy until spring of senior year. There is no good in knowing that the occipital lobe is the vision center of the brain if you can't understand how it processes retinal information into a 'picture'.

That's what the Neter's atlas is for 😉

Plus, I already know a good deal more than I should already. Why stop now if I have SO MUCH free time on my hands!

OP, you're already a senior in high school and you're just NOW thinking about USMLE?? 😱 I don't know if you'll ever be able to catch up, you're so far behind!!

I know, where do I start?!?!

First: if you are just figuring out what an Ivy is... you might want to slow down a bit and not get so riled and antsy over getting in to a neurosurgery residency, which is (if you can make it) NINE FREAKIN' YEARS AWAY!!!
Second: If you want to learn about neuroanatomy, please do, it seems to be an extremely intriguing subject. Please do not try to master the subject by reading a few books because you think doing that will put you a step ahead everybody else who is gunning for a NS spot; it won't.

Just my two cents 😎

When did you first learn that the term "Ivy League" referred to sports teams? I just turned seventeen.

If you're in high school, you should be posting in the hSDN forum. Plenty of people go there, and it's free of much of the cynicism Pre-Allo has to offer. You should also totally stop worrying about med school and enjoy your life while you can. Even assuming you don't have anything better to do than bury yourself in books, you're not going to get anything out of reading a neuroanatomic atlas. It's confusing enough when you know what you're looking at. Without any background, it's a complete waste of time. Go booze it up with some buddies or something. You'll spend PLENTY of time studying through college and med school, assuming you stay on that path. Don't screw yourself out of having fun while what you do with your time is largely irrelevant.

Moved to hSDN.

What is fun to you is - obviously - destroying your brain and liver with alcohol. To me, I prefer to study, and understand the world. The best thinkers in this universe didn't party it up all day. Heck, our founding fathers smoked some Cannabis but they did it for the effect of thinking in ways that they never else would have.

By the way, I am currently home enrolled. I have A LOT of free time for partying AND studying. I went to public high school for two years, did horrible. Totally uninterested. Now I am doing a lot better, and my self inspiration is skyrocketing. Why do you want to put a crutch on me and send me to H.S.D.N. when all I want is answers to my questions.

Will H.S.D.N. help me find a new neuroanatomical book? Also, what makes one qualified to post in the allopathic section? By being a medical student? How about I just post here sparingly as to not waste all of your time? I want to be able to post here in the allopathic section - AND - get mass advice from actual medical students about books. All I want is advise about books. Please man, don't condescend to me!!!

And also, wouldn't you agree that I won't get my question answered here in hSDN? It is obvious that not as many med students frequent hSDN for fun...I wouldn't if I were them. Even if they would, it's sure that I still won't get as many diverse opinions here. I will be lucky to get one response. So, your pretty much banning me from my advice? Sheesh!

 

[MilkmanAl]

The best thinkers in this universe didn't party it up all day.

Yeah...actually, they did, but that isn't my point. I'm not suggesting you go load up on heroin and pick up some crack ******, but I am saying that you should give studying a rest while doing so is still an option. Sure, there's no harm in browsing some subjects that interest you, but buying anatomical atlases now is like me going out and reading a text on advanced computer programming or something. I'd have absolutely no idea what to do with it. Stick to the really basic stuff - like, say, the physiology you'll learn in introductory biology - and build from there. Save the med school books for med school.

 

[MedicineNewb]

Yeah...actually, they did, but that isn't my point. I'm not suggesting you go load up on heroin and pick up some crack ******, but I am saying that you should give studying a rest while doing so is still an option. Sure, there's no harm in browsing some subjects that interest you, but buying anatomical atlases now is like me going out and reading a text on advanced computer programming or something. I'd have absolutely no idea what to do with it. Stick to the really basic stuff - like, say, the physiology you'll learn in introductory biology - and build from there. Save the med school books for med school.

Thanks for riding me off. You actually directly answered my question! Yes, you ARE trying to steer me away from learning med school material before med school. Is it okay for me to want to ignore YOU and get other people to answer my question? 😕😕

I know my physiology damn well at a cellular level and at organ size level. I know basic anatomy. I know the parts of the brain, what they do, how they do it. I want to proceed in my own self research, yet some unappreciated pseudo moderator stand in my way. STOP MOVING MY THREADS! They won't be answered here!

 

[El Nino]

Thanks for riding me off. You actually directly answered my question! Yes, you ARE trying to steer me away from learning med school material before med school. Is it okay for me to want to ignore YOU and get other people to answer my question? 😕😕

I know my physiology damn well at a cellular level and at organ size level. I know basic anatomy. I know the parts of the brain, what they do, how they do it. I want to proceed in my own self research, yet some unappreciated pseudo moderator stand in my way. STOP MOVING MY THREADS! They won't be answered here!

If you're genuinely interested in neuroanatomy and neurosurgery, I'd suggest:

1) Contact a few researchers (obviously focusing on the subjects your interested), and ask if you could do research with them.

2) Shadow a couple of neurosurgeons

If you have not done any of the two above then, no more T.V. for you!

------------------------
Honestly I do not recommend reading science textbooks religiously. Seriously, from what I've learned from working in a lab is a lot of the information is written like it's set in stone, when in fact it's not.

Obviously anatomy textbooks will stay the same

 

[Cogito ergo es]

The best thinkers in this universe didn't party it up all day.

e.g.: Freud, who did enough cocaine to kill a small horse.

 

[MedicineNewb]

If you're genuinely interested in neuroanatomy and neurosurgery, I'd suggest:

1) Contact a few researchers (obviously focusing on the subjects your interested), and ask if you could do research with them.

2) Shadow a couple of neurosurgeons

If you have not done any of the two above then, no more T.V. for you!

------------------------
Honestly I do not recommend reading science textbooks religiously. Seriously, from what I've learned from working in a lab is a lot of the information is written like it's set in stone, when in fact it's not.

Obviously anatomy textbooks will stay the same

I am a senior in high school, I can shadow a neurosurgeon? 😱

Also, how would I go about contacting researchers? I know that your peers in college would be a good start...maybe asking a teacher if they know of any groups I can help out maybe get my name somewhere in the article.

However, I am not in college. This poses for even greater challenges.

 

[El Nino]

I am a senior in high school, I can shadow a neurosurgeon? 😱

Also, how would I go about contacting researchers? I know that your peers in college would be a good start...maybe asking a teacher if they know of any groups I can help out maybe get my name somewhere in the article.

However, I am not in college. This poses for even greater challenges.

I'm in high school and I am also a senior, no excuses . I suggested that because I have done it.

You don't have to work with a "big-name" (in that specific field) in order to do research. lol for example: I've talked and met with Dr. Blackburn (recent UCSF nobel prize winner) before she won. Now it seems everyone wants to work with her.

 

[MedicineNewb]

I'm in high school and I am also a senior, no excuses . I suggested that because I have done it.

You don't have to work with a "big-name" (in that specific field) in order to do research. lol for example: I've talked and met with Dr. Blackburn (recent UCSF nobel prize winner) before she won. Now it seems everyone wants to work with her.

Seriously, man...you just provided all sorts of hope and joy for me! Can I private message you with a few questions as to how I could professionally set up an interview...shadow...so on and so forth?

 

[El Nino]

Seriously, man...you just provided all sorts of hope and joy for me! Can I private message you with a few questions as to how I could professionally set up an interview...shadow...so on and so forth?

Yeah, I don't mind.

 

[smq123]

That's what the Neter's atlas is for 😉

NetTer's, by the way, sucks for neuroanatomy. His focus was generally not the brain or the nervous system.

I never really liked Netter's illustrations all that much for learning anatomy, but that's personal preference.

What is fun to you is - obviously - destroying your brain and liver with alcohol. To me, I prefer to study, and understand the world.

You want to understand the world? THEN GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF TEXTBOOKS AND LEARN HOW REAL PEOPLE (i.e. FUTURE PATIENTS) ACTUALLY LIVE. Volunteer at a soup kitchen. Help the homeless. Learn what their lives are REALLY like. These are the people you will be called to help (IF you make it into a neurosurgery residency, which given your arrogant attitude at the tender age of 17, is iffy) at 2 AM when they fall down and hit their head on the steps and bleed into their brain.

For Christ's sakes, the key to "understanding the world" isn't reading textbooks that are far too advanced for you. Learn a foreign language. Read up on history. Learn about PEOPLE, not just from textbooks.

Will H.S.D.N. help me find a new neuroanatomical book? Also, what makes one qualified to post in the allopathic section? By being a medical student? How about I just post here sparingly as to not waste all of your time? I want to be able to post here in the allopathic section - AND - get mass advice from actual medical students about books. All I want is advise about books. Please man, don't condescend to me!!!

By the way, you DO realize that the neuroanatomy that you learn in a textbook is very different from SURGICAL neuroanatomy? Just like regular gross anatomy is an extremely different experience from a surgery residency?

When did you first learn that the term "Ivy League" referred to sports teams? I just turned seventeen.

I was 14 or 15 when I first learned this.

No I am a senior in high school, but I have heard that a lot of people are having problems in this course. If I look briefly at it every now and then I can self-educate. Neurosurgery residency is pretty hard to match in 😉

- Where did you hear that "a lot of people are having problems in this course"? I did much better in neuroscience/neuroanatomy than I did in gross anatomy. It's a smaller area of the body which, while complicated, is generally symmetrical (as opposed to, say, the abdominal cavity) and the spatial relationships are much easier to visualize.

- Looking at it "briefly every now and then" isn't going to help you self-educate. It will help you remember random facts that, when strung together, still won't even begin to approach the amount of information that you'd actually need for an MS1 level course.

- Neurosurgery IS hard to match in....but being arrogant and rude isn't going to help you much in that endeavor.

 

[MedicineNewb]

NetTer's, by the way, sucks for neuroanatomy. His focus was generally not the brain or the nervous system.

I never really liked Netter's illustrations all that much for learning anatomy, but that's personal preference.



You want to understand the world? THEN GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF TEXTBOOKS AND LEARN HOW REAL PEOPLE (i.e. FUTURE PATIENTS) ACTUALLY LIVE. Volunteer at a soup kitchen. Help the homeless. Learn what their lives are REALLY like. These are the people you will be called to help (IF you make it into a neurosurgery residency, which given your arrogant attitude at the tender age of 17, is iffy) at 2 AM when they fall down and hit their head on the steps and bleed into their brain.

For Christ's sakes, the key to "understanding the world" isn't reading textbooks that are far too advanced for you. Learn a foreign language. Read up on history. Learn about PEOPLE, not just from textbooks.



By the way, you DO realize that the neuroanatomy that you learn in a textbook is very different from SURGICAL neuroanatomy? Just like regular gross anatomy is an extremely different experience from a surgery residency?



I was 14 or 15 when I first learned this.



- Where did you hear that "a lot of people are having problems in this course"? I did much better in neuroscience/neuroanatomy than I did in gross anatomy. It's a smaller area of the body which, while complicated, is generally symmetrical (as opposed to, say, the abdominal cavity) and the spatial relationships are much easier to visualize.

- Looking at it "briefly every now and then" isn't going to help you self-educate. It will help you remember random facts that, when strung together, still won't even begin to approach the amount of information that you'd actually need for an MS1 level course.

- Neurosurgery IS hard to match in....but being arrogant and rude isn't going to help you much in that endeavor.

My goal was not to be rude, I had the best intentions in the beginning. I only wanted the comparison of one neuroanatomy book to another.

However arrogant or self-pretentious I sounded, I genuinely apologize. The amount of cynicism that a high school student receives at a medical school forum is amazing. People balk at a high school student wanting to learn neuroanatomy. They should want to help!

Anyways - I do see the need to learn about people - the way they act - and learn how to socialize well with them. All kinds of people.

Anyways, before I start whining, I am going to shut my mouth and move along because your post was really quite enlightening. You followed up on the things that others failed to explain.

Just to end with a story: One dark night I was in the car memorizing lines right before a dress rehearsal in a play (I used to act when I was younger). A man jumped out from behind a van, and my mom hit him. I watched his head smack and shatter the windshield. The first thing that I said was mom stop! I knew that someone would be confused in a moment like this, and shocked, but I was not. She stopped and I said call 911. I ran out of the car and my brother and I helped lift him up to safety up off the street. He was bleeding from his right ear on my side, but I was sure not to inform my brother to keep control over the situation. We help him up until help arrived. The whole time he was being held up I was just wondering, his head is fine! I don't see anything on it. How is the blood coming out of his ear like that? I was amazed and controlled in a situation when the average 12 year old would have been crying.

From that day, the authority, and primitive brain control I felt, I knew I wanted to become a medical doctor. Not only was it vastly fascinating, but I knew I had the stomach to see things humans just shouldn't see.

P.S. I was talking about Netter's for general anatomy and Haine's for neuroanatomy. Seeing as how we are currently back on subject and I am done rambling, what general anatomy books would you recommend?

 

[smq123]

From that day, the authority, and primitive brain control I felt, I knew I wanted to become a medical doctor. Not only was it vastly fascinating, but I knew I had the stomach to see things humans just shouldn't see.

I think that the idea that doctors are the ones who see the "worst" things is very narrow-minded. Policemen, paramedics, firemen, nurses, psychologists all see things that some physicians don't want to see or can't stand, frankly. I met a social worker who used to work with child molesters. He had stories that made physicians nauseated.

Just to end with a story: One dark night I was in the car memorizing lines right before a dress rehearsal in a play (I used to act when I was younger). A man jumped out from behind a van, and my mom hit him. I watched his head smack and shatter the windshield. The first thing that I said was mom stop! I knew that someone would be confused in a moment like this, and shocked, but I was not. She stopped and I said call 911. I ran out of the car and my brother and I helped lift him up to safety up off the street. He was bleeding from his right ear on my side, but I was sure not to inform my brother to keep control over the situation. We help him up until help arrived. The whole time he was being held up I was just wondering, his head is fine! I don't see anything on it. How is the blood coming out of his ear like that? I was amazed and controlled in a situation when the average 12 year old would have been crying.

Thanks for that story.

A few points, though:
- Good emotional control is not the only thing that you need to be a physician. In fact, I would argue that it's not a great reason to become a physician at all.

As a physician, you can learn to be "controlled" in a situation. That comes with experience.

- For future reference....you moved a head trauma victim?!?! 😱 😱 😱

Head trauma, especially one where you've just smacked your head into an oncoming windshield, can lead to terrible spine instability. Seeing as your breathing centers are located at the level of the neck, you could have injured his spine to the point where he would have stopped breathing.

I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but people who have just injured their head and necks are often better off where they are, and you should let the professionals (i.e. the EMTs) move them. All you can do is set up flashers and prevent cars from driving over him....otherwise, by helping move him off the street, you could very well have snapped his neck. I mean, at the age of 12, you probably wouldn't have known this, but in the future....

P.S. I was talking about Netter's for general anatomy and Haine's for neuroanatomy. Seeing as how we are currently back on subject and I am done rambling, what general anatomy books would you recommend?

None. You're 17. They're all vastly over your head, and honestly not even your the biggest obstacles to becoming a physician at this point.

To even be allowed into medical school, you have to pass advanced physics, calculus (for some schools) and organic chemistry. I had MUCH more trouble with organic chemistry than I ever did with neuroanatomy or even general anatomy. If you can't get through college successfully, you'll never have a chance at regular anatomy.

To put this in perspective, medical schools don't even require undergraduate anatomy to get into medical school! But they all do require general chemistry, organic chemistry, and physics.

 

[redsquareblack]

However arrogant or self-pretentious I sounded, I genuinely apologize. The amount of cynicism that a high school student receives at a medical school forum is amazing. People balk at a high school student wanting to learn neuroanatomy. They should want to help!

Well, 'cause it's kind of silly, really. But whatever. 🙄

Just to end with a story: One dark night I was in the car memorizing lines right before a dress rehearsal in a play (I used to act when I was younger). A man jumped out from behind a van, and my mom hit him. I watched his head smack and shatter the windshield. The first thing that I said was mom stop! I knew that someone would be confused in a moment like this, and shocked, but I was not. She stopped and I said call 911. I ran out of the car and my brother and I helped lift him up to safety up off the street. He was bleeding from his right ear on my side, but I was sure not to inform my brother to keep control over the situation. We help him up until help arrived. The whole time he was being held up I was just wondering, his head is fine! I don't see anything on it. How is the blood coming out of his ear like that? I was amazed and controlled in a situation when the average 12 year old would have been crying.

Let me get this straight: A guy got hit by a car, and was bleeding from his ear, and you picked him up off the street?! And this is supposed to be illustrative of how good a doctor you just know you'll be? I'm glad it turned out well, but that was not a smart move.

P.S. I was talking about Netter's for general anatomy and Haine's for neuroanatomy. Seeing as how we are currently back on subject and I am done rambling, what general anatomy books would you recommend?

Jesus, just stop, dude. You're going to be that guy, I can tell already.

 

[MossPoh]

Thanks for riding me off. You actually directly answered my question! Yes, you ARE trying to steer me away from learning med school material before med school. Is it okay for me to want to ignore YOU and get other people to answer my question? 😕😕

I know my physiology damn well at a cellular level and at organ size level. I know basic anatomy. I know the parts of the brain, what they do, how they do it. I want to proceed in my own self research, yet some unappreciated pseudo moderator stand in my way. STOP MOVING MY THREADS! They won't be answered here!

Riding you off? Term is write-off. It is referring to financial/accounting/insurance.

Kid. Chill out. Neuroscience is ONE med school course. I'm finishing it up now. I barely invested any time. It isn't that bad. It isn't even that much on the USMLE and the stuff that is on there tends to be more clinical and is labeled the "neurology" section in USMLE. Since I can tell you just aren't going to ever realize how ridiculous this is, go to a book store and look at the First Aid books for USMLE step 1. Go to neurology section. That is what you need to know for the boards.

NOTHING short of earth shattering neuroscience research will help you at this point to get a neurosurgery residency. The board scores aren't low but the match rate is not unachievable. I can guarantee you that nobody started studying for boards at 17 years old unless they got into medical school when they were 15 or 16.

 

[redsquareblack]

Dieter!!!

 

[redsquareblack]

I know my physiology damn well at a cellular level and at organ size level. I know basic anatomy. I know the parts of the brain, what they do, how they do it. I want to proceed in my own self research, yet some unappreciated pseudo moderator stand in my way. STOP MOVING MY THREADS! They won't be answered here!

First of all, I have no doubt that you think you know your physiology "damn well at a cellular level and at organ size level". It's quite possible that you do know it well for a senior in high school. Never forget that bolded part. You're ambitious and driven, and I get that and can appreciate it. You want to learn, and that's great and commendable. Never lose that.

But if you think for one moment that starting to memorize this information at this stage in the game will help you nab that neurosurg residency that you don't even know whether you'll want when the time comes (trust me, you don't), you're dreaming. I met plenty of folks like you in my med school courses, and let me tell you: Regression to the mean is a wonderful thing.

You are far too young, with far too limited an educational/experience base for you to be running off at the mouth about how well you understand physiology, anatomy, and neuro. Unless you know something we don't, and you're a phenom who's going to medical school straight out of high school, I think you should adopt a modicum of humility.

It's great to set goals, but at this point, learn this stuff for the hell of it, don't take it too seriously, and don't think it'll help all that much.

 

[MossPoh]

I really hope I was never this cocky.

You aren't a beautiful and unique snowflake. I took anatomy and physiology in high school. My percentage was 102% and no I'm not exaggerating. One test he added a few points since the average was low. You know how I did in anatomy? C+. Completely different in every regard. You don't know intensity yet. You haven't seen the higher order questions they ask on the exams. It is at a different depth.

For what its worth, the top thing I get commented on when with patients, whether standardized or in the real world is NOT my knowledge of science. It is how I establish rapport and my ability to talk to them. I didn't get that from books. I got that from traveling, partying, and talking to people.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Definitely expand your area of interests, get into a good college, and experience life for a bit. Medical school isn't going anywhere, so there is no need to burn yourself out on things that won't much matter until you are an M1 or if you do research in a related area during your undergraduate training.

As an aside, book learning has its place, but there are many other ways to learn, and limiting yourself to one area can be problematic. Most of the brightest folks have success across various "intelligences", so being diverse in your experiences is important.

 

[c5212]

When did you first learn that the term "Ivy League" referred to sports teams? I just turned seventeen.

The summer before sixth (6th) grade, if you must know. 👍

 

[ahmede19]

I was really surprised until I read that he is home-schooled..

 

[c5212]

I was really surprised until I read that he is home-schooled..

Ohhhhh... very interesting. No further comment.

 

[TheMightySmiter]

Lol, OP, go get yourself some booty, that's all the anatomy a 17-year-old needs to know!

 

[MedicineNewb]

I think that the idea that doctors are the ones who see the "worst" things is very narrow-minded. Policemen, paramedics, firemen, nurses, psychologists all see things that some physicians don't want to see or can't stand, frankly. I met a social worker who used to work with child molesters. He had stories that made physicians nauseated.

MedicineNewb: I simply said SOME of the sickest things. Drug rehabilitation, child molestation, they all rank FAR heavier and more difficult in my book.



Thanks for that story.

A few points, though:
- Good emotional control is not the only thing that you need to be a physician. In fact, I would argue that it's not a great reason to become a physician at all.

MedicineNewb: Not the ONLY reason, I have about one of hundred more.

As a physician, you can learn to be "controlled" in a situation. That comes with experience.

- For future reference....you moved a head trauma victim?!?! 😱 😱 😱

Head trauma, especially one where you've just smacked your head into an oncoming windshield, can lead to terrible spine instability. Seeing as your breathing centers are located at the level of the neck, you could have injured his spine to the point where he would have stopped breathing.

I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but people who have just injured their head and necks are often better off where they are, and you should let the professionals (i.e. the EMTs) move them. All you can do is set up flashers and prevent cars from driving over him....otherwise, by helping move him off the street, you could very well have snapped his neck. I mean, at the age of 12, you probably wouldn't have known this, but in the future....

MedicineNewb: I was only 12, like you said. My brain was thinking to get him out of the way of any more cars. What I would have done now is have my mom park in the middle of the street away from the victim with emergency lights on, but staying inside as to move the car for the EMS. I would have my brother look for people turning down the street and flagging them down and guiding away traffic, again to keep a way for EMS. I would stay in the middle with the patient, advise him not to talk or move and to breathe regularly.


None. You're 17. They're all vastly over your head, and honestly not even your the biggest obstacles to becoming a physician at this point.

To even be allowed into medical school, you have to pass advanced physics, calculus (for some schools) and organic chemistry. I had MUCH more trouble with organic chemistry than I ever did with neuroanatomy or even general anatomy. If you can't get through college successfully, you'll never have a chance at regular anatomy.

To put this in perspective, medical schools don't even require undergraduate anatomy to get into medical school! But they all do require general chemistry, organic chemistry, and physics.

MedicineNewb: My brother, my dad and I meet up on fridays, watch a movie, and talk about math, bits and pieces of chemistry, and organic chemistry. I have not taken any organic chemistry classes yet but I will be buying a college textbook soon to look at in my spare time.

Well, 'cause it's kind of silly, really. But whatever. 🙄



Let me get this straight: A guy got hit by a car, and was bleeding from his ear, and you picked him up off the street?! And this is supposed to be illustrative of how good a doctor you just know you'll be? I'm glad it turned out well, but that was not a smart move.



Jesus, just stop, dude. You're going to be that guy, I can tell already.

Lol. Most 12 year olds don't know these this. Maybe you did! But, I am a different person than you. And I didn't know. If it were to happen now, I would have handled things quite differently.

Riding you off? Term is write-off. It is referring to financial/accounting/insurance.

MedicineNewb: The term IS "writing off" you are right there. However the English language has made different meanings of it (other than just finance). Do you trust oxford, sir?

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/writeoff?view=uk

Kid. Chill out. Neuroscience is ONE med school course. I'm finishing it up now. I barely invested any time. It isn't that bad. It isn't even that much on the USMLE and the stuff that is on there tends to be more clinical and is labeled the "neurology" section in USMLE. Since I can tell you just aren't going to ever realize how ridiculous this is, go to a book store and look at the First Aid books for USMLE step 1. Go to neurology section. That is what you need to know for the boards.

NOTHING short of earth shattering neuroscience research will help you at this point to get a neurosurgery residency. The board scores aren't low but the match rate is not unachievable. I can guarantee you that nobody started studying for boards at 17 years old unless they got into medical school when they were 15 or 16.

MedicineNewb: Okay, NOW I know that has almost nothing to do with the USMLE, I didn't know. I thought it was a major part... I would have been more appreciative if someone kindly explained "I'd get a book on organic chemistry instead, more people are having trouble understanding that. You won't need a neuroanatomy book to pass the USMLE. You WILL need one in residency though." 😱

You are far too young, with far too limited an educational/experience base for you to be running off at the mouth about how well you understand physiology, anatomy, and neuro. Unless you know something we don't, and you're a phenom who's going to medical school straight out of high school, I think you should adopt a modicum of humility.

It's great to set goals, but at this point, learn this stuff for the hell of it, don't take it too seriously, and don't think it'll help all that much.

That's where your wrong. I said that I know my anatomy damn well at cellular level and organ size level. What I meant by that was FOR A HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT. I know that I am only a high school student. But what do excelling high school students turn into? College students.

How do I get to the next step? Buy pre-medical books i.e. GENERAL anatomy books, college level chemistry, and biology. If I can get that little bit more familiar with it before ACTUALLY studying and learning it for a grade, I see it as a benefit.

I really hope I was never this cocky.

You aren't a beautiful and unique snowflake. I took anatomy and physiology in high school. My percentage was 102% and no I'm not exaggerating. One test he added a few points since the average was low. You know how I did in anatomy? C+. Completely different in every regard. You don't know intensity yet. You haven't seen the higher order questions they ask on the exams. It is at a different depth.

For what its worth, the top thing I get commented on when with patients, whether standardized or in the real world is NOT my knowledge of science. It is how I establish rapport and my ability to talk to them. I didn't get that from books. I got that from traveling, partying, and talking to people.

Is a good word for this...hmmm...ah yes! Charisma! I am very charismatic. As a matter of fact, I love to chat, and act overly nice, and smile. Hell, I do well enough with females to pick them up once in a while. I like to think that behind the ego I show online (which is only actually frustration) I am a caring, understanding person. I respect everyone. And as a matter of fact I know just what you mean. My doctor slowly walks away as I'm talking and actually opens the door behind him slowly trying to walk out. He makes me afraid to ask questions or show interest! No, not because I bore him to death. But because his time is too valuable for me.

Definitely expand your area of interests, get into a good college, and experience life for a bit. Medical school isn't going anywhere, so there is no need to burn yourself out on things that won't much matter until you are an M1 or if you do research in a related area during your undergraduate training.

As an aside, book learning has its place, but there are many other ways to learn, and limiting yourself to one area can be problematic. Most of the brightest folks have success across various "intelligences", so being diverse in your experiences is important.

I try to work on my character all the time. I watch indie films, I play guitar, I go out with my friends and occasionally a girl if I get lucky. I am also trying to find some places to volunteer. Just so you guys don't once again confuse my frustration for ego, I apologize. I needed to explain my activity. I am not cooped up inside with glasses and a book. I just like to learn instead of watch tv in my spare time.

I was really surprised until I read that he is home-schooled..

I take online courses. I was in public school until the end of sophomore year. I hung with the bong tokers and those "most likely to dropout". I would get baked before classes, and then skip out on lunch to chow down. High school is not for everybody. When your young, cliques matter. I looked down on my self image. Eventually everything got boring and I really started to hate high school. I had a responsibility issue. So, I slowed a bit on the herbs and started taking online courses. Now, at the end of my high school career, I only party when I have finished my homework. I am going to graduate with my last two years of high school with averages above 98% each year consecutively. My cumulative GPA is going to be another story...🙁

Lol, OP, go get yourself some booty, that's all the anatomy a 17-year-old needs to know!

I got laid before most people my age. It was in freshman year, cutest girl I have ever been with since (I think...its a close call...). But this isn't a contest, maybe you did before me? I'm not bragging, just justifying myself. I have had many relationships. Senior year hasn't been great so far, but I sense as the year end nears I will be having a blast. Anyways, I'm rambling off topic.

 

[dienekes88]

Eh. If the kid wants to waste his time memorizing something that he can't understand and won't remember next year... let him.

Heck, in the last 6 years, I've probably wasted 3600 hours riding a bicycle.

Neuroanatomy: text and atlas, John Martin.
Principles of Neural Science, Eric Kandel.

 

[TheMightySmiter]

I got laid before most people my age. It was in freshman year, cutest girl I have ever been with since (I think...its a close call...). But this isn't a contest, maybe you did before me? I'm not bragging, just justifying myself. I have had many relationships. Senior year hasn't been great so far, but I sense as the year end nears I will be having a blast. Anyways, I'm rambling off topic.

Haha, sorry, I was just kidding. It's great to show initiative and want to learn about advanced topics. Your intellectual curiosity will do you well. I think what people are trying to say is that you just shouldn't try to get too ahead of yourself. You can do excellently in organic chemistry without having cracked an o-chem textbook before your class begins. Same goes for most other subjects. Having prior exposure can only do so much, because courses tend to vary greatly in how the material is taught, what the professor thinks is important, etc. If you're truly interested in a subject, by all means get some exposure to it for your own pleasure. Just don't take it too seriously until you're graded for it! 🙂

 

[redsquareblack]

Haha, sorry, I was just kidding. It's great to show initiative and want to learn about advanced topics. Your intellectual curiosity will do you well. I think what people are trying to say is that you just shouldn't try to get too ahead of yourself. You can do excellently in organic chemistry without having cracked an o-chem textbook before your class begins. Same goes for most other subjects. Having prior exposure can only do so much, because courses tend to vary greatly in how the material is taught, what the professor thinks is important, etc. If you're truly interested in a subject, by all means get some exposure to it for your own pleasure. Just don't take it too seriously until you're graded for it! 🙂

THANK you. Exactly what I was trying to say, but better.

 

[Terpskins99]

blah blah blah... As long as the book has good writing, complete information needed to pass the USMLE... blah blah blah ... "High-Yield Neuroanatomy" by James D. Fix. It looks basic to what you need to graduate medical school and pass the USMLE. But is it enough coverage for a high caliber medical school?... blah blah blah...debating buying "Neuroanatomy: An Atlas of Structures, Sections, and Systems, North American Edition" by Duane E. Haines....
blah blah blah
I am getting the book so I can go into neurosurgery later, so I hope for a book suitable to satisfy a top tier school.
*snortlaugh* blah blah blah

Frankly, High Yield Neuroanatomy has all the neuro you need to ace the neuro on USMLE. But like every other topic, it has nowhere near the detailed information you'll need to ace neuroanatomy/neurophysiology in any medical school class.

I was fortunate to have exceptional neuroanatomy and pathology instructors in medical school, so I could rely pretty much exclusively on my lecture notes to excel in the topics.

However, one book that was very popular among my classmates was Neuroanatomy by Alan Crossman and David Neary. Has just enough information to cover everything any med student would need to know on the subject and is very user friendly. Pictures are beautiful and very well labeled. I think even most high schoolers could pick this book up and study it without much difficulty. 👍

 

[MedicineNewb]

You guys are awesome, thank you so much for the help! I just applied to Hopkins undergraduate...doubt that I make it in, but hey why not give it a stab eh?