Neurology and Research

[BrianUM]

Hey everyone,

I am finishing MS-1 and have a very strong interest in doing Neurology, maybe at a program like Miami (where I go to med school)

I was planning on doing research this summer but have since started to study for the boards and realize that I need most of the summer to complete my study program that I have planned

Is it common to begin a research project for the 1st time in 3rd-4th yr and will it hurt me when applying to Neurology residencies? I am asking about both Neuro residencies in general and more competitive programs as well

Thanks

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[DarthNeurology]

Hey everyone,

I am finishing MS-1 and have a very strong interest in doing Neurology, maybe at a program like Miami (where I go to med school)

I was planning on doing research this summer but have since started to study for the boards and realize that I need most of the summer to complete my study program that I have planned

Is it common to begin a research project for the 1st time in 3rd-4th yr and will it hurt me when applying to Neurology residencies? I am asking about both Neuro residencies in general and more competitive programs as well

Thanks

I assume that you are taking Step 1 at the end of second year. Let me tell you something about Step 1, . . . there are a lot of excellent resources that you could use, i.e. First Aid, Kaplan, Usmleworld that you can complete while you are doing research i.e. in between setting up experiments and at night, and which you can continue during second year. Honestly, a lot of step 1 is second year material, pharm, pathphys, etc . . . the month or so before the step 1 is when you will really condense the knowledge anyway, if you read First Aid Step 1 say 2-3 times, and read Kaplan 2-3 times you will be way ahead for Step 1 . . . that being said I remember squeezing every hour to study for Step 1 during years 1 and 2, . . . if you want/need to be stuyding this summer, that is cool too and may help you get an even higher scores on both steps with an excellent knowledge base, then you could easily setup a year between 2nd and 3rd to work on a *real* research project, i.e. get a publication, something you probably won't get in the summer, . . . and you could take step 1 easily at the end of the research year or at the end of year 2, you decide. Good Luck! A summer spent doing research is no big deal maker or breaker I think, . . . people who have Master degree or who have taken a year off between basics and clinicals (best time to do it) look more dedicated to research I think

 

[BrianUM]

Thanks Darth,

Those are some excellent suggestions and advice

I would love to do research/study step 1 this summer but I find that I am a pretty slow reader and neeed all the time i can get...I think that my school offers electives in yr 3 or 4 where I could get credit for doing research..im thinking that I might just do that...do you think thats a good idea or do programs strongly prefer to see extracurricular research?

Thanks for your help

 

[DarthNeurology]

Thanks Darth,

Those are some excellent suggestions and advice

I would love to do research/study step 1 this summer but I find that I am a pretty slow reader and neeed all the time i can get...I think that my school offers electives in yr 3 or 4 where I could get credit for doing research..im thinking that I might just do that...do you think thats a good idea or do programs strongly prefer to see extracurricular research?

Thanks for your help

Most/a lot of applicants to neurology don't have research and are successful matching anyway, this ain't derm or neurosurgery dude, obviously if you do well in third year, ace the steps then you will get a neurology program somewhere to accept you. Do you want to do research as part of your career? If no then go ahead and do something in years 3 and 4 . . . Obviously there is a spectrum of research from:

1. PhD c/ publications
2. Master c/publications
3. No degree but c/ publications and years of research
4. No degree, no publications but a year of research (year off between year 2 and 3)
5. Elective, summer of research
6. No research

I don't need to tell you what is better, but even if you do mediocre in year 3 and 4 and mediocre on steps you will get admitted somewhere, neurology I think is about as competitive as IM in getting spot somewhere. Any more research you have is just extra stuff PDs like, they may have 1 residents c/ PhD, 2 with research papers, and 4 with no research go figure. I did hear on this boards of a person who did *very* well in years 3 and 4 and in boards and got into a top neurology program without research, so if you just want to be excellent clinically that is ok too.I think you will do well on step 1, I got 96/99 on my steps and I just studied a moderate amount each day, believe me, it is hard to study 12 hours a day, if you can manage 4-6 hours each night during summer then this is quality studying time, I think research helps jog the mind into studying too, remember most lab jobs are sitting around waiting for a timer to go off, . . . check out what to study for step 1 and step 2 on these boards, this is more than 70% of what med students do, i.e. most people I knew blew off step 1 and just studied a couple weeks from first aid and got an average score.

 

[genius19]

Most/a lot of applicants to neurology don't have research and are successful matching anyway, this ain't derm or neurosurgery dude, obviously if you do well in third year, ace the steps then you will get a neurology program somewhere to accept you. Do you want to do research as part of your career? If no then go ahead and do something in years 3 and 4 . . . Obviously there is a spectrum of research from:

1. PhD c/ publications
2. Master c/publications
3. No degree but c/ publications and years of research
4. No degree, no publications but a year of research (year off between year 2 and 3)
5. Elective, summer of research
6. No research

I don't need to tell you what is better, but even if you do mediocre in year 3 and 4 and mediocre on steps you will get admitted somewhere, neurology I think is about as competitive as IM in getting spot somewhere. Any more research you have is just extra stuff PDs like, they may have 1 residents c/ PhD, 2 with research papers, and 4 with no research go figure. I did hear on this boards of a person who did *very* well in years 3 and 4 and in boards and got into a top neurology program without research, so if you just want to be excellent clinically that is ok too.I think you will do well on step 1, I got 96/99 on my steps and I just studied a moderate amount each day, believe me, it is hard to study 12 hours a day, if you can manage 4-6 hours each night during summer then this is quality studying time, I think research helps jog the mind into studying too, remember most lab jobs are sitting around waiting for a timer to go off, . . . check out what to study for step 1 and step 2 on these boards, this is more than 70% of what med students do, i.e. most people I knew blew off step 1 and just studied a couple weeks from first aid and got an average score.

Hi Darth, I am a foreign medical student. Can I get into neurology without any research if i have a good score in USMLE ? What kind of score is good enough to get into a neoro program ?

 

[typhoonegator]

Plenty of people get into neurology residency with no research, or research in another field, or garbage research.

That said, the question of research really boils down to two issues: whether you actually want to do research, and where you want to go.

Performing any meaningful research in your field of study will help your application stand out, particularly in heavily academic programs. But if your mission is to attend a more community-based program and go into private practice, it becomes much less important. This isn't because these programs are less-good, but because the focus is different.

Don't attach yourself to a research project just to pad your application. Speaking from experience as an applicant interviewer, this is usually very transparent, and why would you want to spend all that time doing something you don't enjoy?

Returning to the logistical question that the original poster asked, I will address it in 2 parts.

1) No one is likely to exclude your application from consideration for lack of research, but there are definitely programs that will weed out low board scores. There is nothing wrong with focusing on Step-1 for now. Yes, it is a ridiculous measure of worth, but sometimes you have to just "play ball" and obey the rules of the establishment.

2) This is the good news: You'll be fine if you hold off on starting a research endeavor until 2nd, 3rd, or possibly even 4th year. If you don't try to bite off more than you can chew, you can generate brief but meaningful papers or posters in short amounts of time, provided you have the right mentor and the interest. This depends a bit on the type of research that you want to do. For instance, if you want to study a rodent model with knockouts of neuroinflammatory genes, you're going to need some (or a lot of) time. However, if you want to team up with an attending and write up a short case series or help with a book chapter, it becomes much less time-consuming.

Best of luck.

 

[Fencer]

Hi Darth, I am a foreign medical student. Can I get into neurology without any research if i have a good score in USMLE ? What kind of score is good enough to get into a neoro program ?

A 220 for an IMG should get you interviews for a Neurology Residency spot. If your interview is reasonably good, it should be enough to get you into a program.

Look at chart 10 and 11 of this report:
http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2007.pdf

 

[genius19]

Plenty of people get into neurology residency with no research, or research in another field, or garbage research.

That said, the question of research really boils down to two issues: whether you actually want to do research, and where you want to go.

Performing any meaningful research in your field of study will help your application stand out, particularly in heavily academic programs. But if your mission is to attend a more community-based program and go into private practice, it becomes much less important. This isn't because these programs are less-good, but because the focus is different.

Don't attach yourself to a research project just to pad your application. Speaking from experience as an applicant interviewer, this is usually very transparent, and why would you want to spend all that time doing something you don't enjoy?

Returning to the logistical question that the original poster asked, I will address it in 2 parts.

1) No one is likely to exclude your application from consideration for lack of research, but there are definitely programs that will weed out low board scores. There is nothing wrong with focusing on Step-1 for now. Yes, it is a ridiculous measure of worth, but sometimes you have to just "play ball" and obey the rules of the establishment.

2) This is the good news: You'll be fine if you hold off on starting a research endeavor until 2nd, 3rd, or possibly even 4th year. If you don't try to bite off more than you can chew, you can generate brief but meaningful papers or posters in short amounts of time, provided you have the right mentor and the interest. This depends a bit on the type of research that you want to do. For instance, if you want to study a rodent model with knockouts of neuroinflammatory genes, you're going to need some (or a lot of) time. However, if you want to team up with an attending and write up a short case series or help with a book chapter, it becomes much less time-consuming.

Best of luck.

Thank you for your information. I am very much interested in doing research. But what kind of research is required if I want to be selected in the top 5 neurology programs of US ? Do questionnaire studies, (if I can publish it international journals) help ?

 

[Fencer]

Thank you for your information. I am very much interested in doing research. But what kind of research is required if I want to be selected in the top 5 neurology programs of US ? Do questionnaire studies, (if I can publish it international journals) help ?

Any published research is better than no research. High quality clinical research or basic science research will often be needed to be considered in those top programs. Questionnaire/survey research and health care database research are seen as softer science. Doing Meta-analysis of clinical trials, or participating in solid clinical studies, is seen as considerably much more robust science. Mechanistic reaserch (rather than descriptive) is considered of higher value because after those studies something solid has been found. The quality of the scientific inference is higher. However, there are many levels of basic science research. The best for clinician scientists is the more translation research in mechanisms of disease. The further you get down into the phylogenetic scale of organisms, the less useful is seen. Rodent models are the most useful. C. elegans or zebra fish are not as highly valued. Keep in mind that the admissions committee consists mostly of plain clinicians.

I got interviews in 8 of the top 10 programs despite being a IMG, but I was about to defend my PhD from a top 20 US institution, had 1 paper in Science and about 8 papers in very high quality journals (J. Neuroscience, Ann. Neurol., etc.). I did not see any other IMG in my interviews ('91)unless they were also productive doing basic science and about to get a PhD. Top scores in USMLE would help you even if there is no research.

 

[genius19]

Thank you for your valuable info . How can I take up a research project in US ? Does clinical research projects done in native country help ? is a 90+ score in USMLE enough to get into a top neuro program without any publications ?