Neurology and Math?

[comewithme]

Hi, I am interested in doing neurology as my residency, currently 5th year (out of 6) of medicine in Europe. I also really like math and can’t help but wonder if math is used in neurology. I am aware that while admitting and treating patients there is no room for that but maybe there is something I’m missing.

My point is that while being fascinated by the brain and wanting to do neurology which I am primarily interested in, I also would like to use math in that field (I’m not interested in doing math not related to neurology as a hobby).

I read a lot of topics on math in medicine, where people were suggesting that Rad Onc uses math because you calculate radiation doses or Pediatry uses math becauce you calculate adult to pediatric doses, but that’s just arithmetics (addition, multiplication, division, subtraction) which is the same you would do when calculating how much money you should spend in a grocery store on a given day or what is your patient’s BMI. So, that’s not really the point and I mean more advanced math.
Any answer is appreciated!

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[Captain_Falcon]

Dont think neurology really utilizes a lot of math, maybe for neuro immunology when handling infusions and calculating doses for body weight? I’m just guessing though

Fields that use math are rad onc, anesthesia, and ophthalmology

 

[Telamir]

I absolutely suck at math. There isn’t any math in neuro essentially since most EMRs calculate mg/kg doses for you etc.

Which is good, cause people don’t know how bad at it I am and I still get to look very smart.

 

[Clean7795]

There is nothing clinical in medicine where you will apply advanced maths, at all.

On the research/technological side math is used in the physics of radiology & radonc. It can get fairly complex with MR imaging. But to actually use the math beyond the concepts, you'd have to be involved in research trying to invent new experimental sequences or something along those lines.

 

[ProReduction]

There is nothing beyond high school math in Neurology. There is also nothing beyond high school math anywhere in any clinical field. If you want to use advanced math, you would need to pursue an entirely different career in Computational Neuroscience, which usually draws from people with a Physics, Computer Science, Electrical Engineering, Neuroscience, or Biomedical Engineering background.

If you really enjoy objective, logically thinking (you like math), clinical Neurology will be a rough career for you (at least in the U.S.)

 

[comewithme]

There is nothing beyond high school math in Neurology. There is also nothing beyond high school math anywhere in any clinical field. If you want to use advanced math, you would need to pursue an entirely different career in Computational Neuroscience, which usually draws from people with a Physics, Computer Science, Electrical Engineering, Neuroscience, or Biomedical Engineering background.

If you really enjoy objective, logically thinking (you like math), clinical Neurology will be a rough career for you (at least in the U.S.)

Thank you for your input. I chose neurology because it is the only medical specialty I am interested in, apart from neurology I don’t see myself in any other field, because I will be simply bored. However if - as you said - even neurology could be rough for me then I am kind of stuck.
Computational neuroscience you mentioned looks really interesting. But how could I change career to something like this - where medicine and technology cross paths? Because that is what’s most appealing to me, the combination of new tech and medicine, and both are equally fascinating.
I will finish my medical school for sure, but should I get some other degree after medicine (I don’t want to study at university anymore tbh) or could I do it without any tech degree background? Simply put - what could I do in my situation?

 

[ProReduction]

Thank you for your input. I chose neurology because it is the only medical specialty I am interested in, apart from neurology I don’t see myself in any other field, because I will be simply bored. However if - as you said - even neurology could be rough for me then I am kind of stuck.
Computational neuroscience you mentioned looks really interesting. But how could I change career to something like this - where medicine and technology cross paths? Because that is what’s most appealing to me, the combination of new tech and medicine, and both are equally fascinating.
I will finish my medical school for sure, but should I get some other degree after medicine (I don’t want to study at university anymore tbh) or could I do it without any tech degree background? Simply put - what could I do in my situation?

If you do not already have a quantitative/STEM background, then additional formal education will be required. Otherwise, you will end up in a "Medical Director" role where you are more of a clinical consultant, regulatory, or quality control person. If being more of a "clinician turned business consultant" is fine with you, then a role like this could work. If you really want to be on the tech/engineering side of things, then you'll need to pour the foundation and build on it. This foundation includes Linear Algebra, Probability Theory, Calculus, Differential Equations, and other foundational engineering courses. There simply is not a role for pure clinicians in tech on the technical side of things outside of advising, and even in those roles a technical background (MD/PhD or heavy research history) is desired.

 

[comewithme]

If you do not already have a quantitative/STEM background, then additional formal education will be required. Otherwise, you will end up in a "Medical Director" role where you are more of a clinical consultant, regulatory, or quality control person. If being more of a "clinician turned business consultant" is fine with you, then a role like this could work. If you really want to be on the tech/engineering side of things, then you'll need to pour the foundation and build on it. This foundation includes Linear Algebra, Probability Theory, Calculus, Differential Equations, and other foundational engineering courses. There simply is not a role for pure clinicians in tech on the technical side of things outside of advising, and even in those roles a technical background (MD/PhD or heavy research history) is desired.

That explanation makes all this clearer for me, thank you. Unfortunately (or fortunately) I cannot financially afford to begin another full-time formal education (e.g. starting bachelor in engineering) and after medical uni I need to work. Heavy research history is not an option as well because, well, all I’ve been doing so far is learning medicine all the time, as all med students have to.
So with that in mind - is it possible to get into that field without any tech degree, just saying „hey I know some of this maths stuff, I’d like to work here”? But perhaps math knowledge alone isn’t sufficient I suppose. Is coding necessary?

 

[ProReduction]

That explanation makes all this clearer for me, thank you. Unfortunately (or fortunately) I cannot financially afford to begin another full-time formal education (e.g. starting bachelor in engineering) and after medical uni I need to work. Heavy research history is not an option as well because, well, all I’ve been doing so far is learning medicine all the time, as all med students have to.
So with that in mind - is it possible to get into that field without any tech degree, just saying „hey I know some of this maths stuff, I’d like to work here”? But perhaps math knowledge alone isn’t sufficient I suppose. Is coding necessary?

You are much more realistic than most. Medical school teaches one and only one thing: how to see tons of patients and how to treat them for their illness. It does not teach business skills or research. It still shocks me a bit when I hear physicians with no business or STEM skills think they can just hop to a career in STEM, not acknowledging the decades of hard work that engineers have invested in their skills.
I think you would have to expand on your math skills a bit. If you are a savant despite no formal education, of course you would be desired.
What kind of role are you thinking of in tech?

 

[Aldertonghen]

So this week I (PGY1) just signed up for a project in DBS involving signal processing- seems to involve a lot of applied math, and is an engineering field (and not a basic math field if that’s what you’re interested in). I have zero skill in math beyond being really good at it in high school, but I’m excited to be involved- this is about as much math one can get in medicine imo.

 

[wholeheartedly]

Maybe biomedical research incorporating epidemiology and biostatistics or even bioninformaticcs, things with lots of data analytics? Something merging data science with medicine might be up your alley. You’d still need more training, but it’s beyond just arithmetic and would complement your background instead of just doing something unrelated. Some fellowships will cover those types of masters degrees, so you aren’t paying for another degree.

Just to get ideas flowing:

Clinical Science Data Fellowships

med.stanford.edu

Neuro-Epidemiology Training Program Fellowship

Learn more about the NIH T32 Neuro-Epidemiology training fellowship program at the Columbia Department of Neurology in New York City.

www.neurology.columbia.edu

Data Science in Stratified Healthcare and Precision Medicine

Offered by The University of Edinburgh. An increasing volume of data is becoming available in biomedicine and healthcare, from genomic data, ... Enroll for free.

www.coursera.org

Predicting Suicidal Ideation in Patients with Huntington’s Disease (DSI-SRP)

This DSI-SRP fellowship funded Joseph Sexton to work in the laboratory of David Isaacs, MD, MPH in the Department of Neurology at Vanderbilt University Medical Center during the summer of 2021. Joseph is a junior with majors in Psychology and Medicine, Health, and Society and minors in...

www.vanderbilt.edu

Biomedical Informatics and<br>Data Science (BIDS) Fellowship

Explore biomedical informatics and data science with field-leading faculty mentors at the world-renowned Washington University School of Medicine – consistently top-ranked ranked nationally for research. Get ahead for wherever you’re going The BIDS fellowship empowers trainees to use biomedical...

informatics.wustl.edu

NLM Biomedical Informatics and Data Science Postdoctoral Fellowship

The Biomedical Informatics and Data Science Research Training (BIRT) Program is a consortium of leading informatics laboratories at Harvard Medical School. It is supported by a training grant from the National Library of Medicine, National Institutes of Health.

dbmi.hms.harvard.edu

I’m sure there are similar options near you.

You can get your feet wet for free with epidemiology, biostats, and data science courses online at sites like Coursera, data camp, etc. Johns Hopkins has some good ones on Coursera you can audit for free or pay for certificate. The audit button can be a bit tricky to find but it’s there.

So you could take a course in one of those areas and see if that’s interesting to you without investing a ton of time or financial resources.

 

[end stage fibro]

I have a colleague that is an md/phd. Phd in comp sci, heavily involved in AI since high
School and through fellowship. You know what he uses his md/phd for… cracking chests and rearranging plumbing in the heart. Same as anyone else. A real shame too… we always chat about tech stuff and you can see the passion he has for it. After work and family, he just doesn’t have bandwidth for any AI related work or hobbies

 

[ProReduction]

So this week I (PGY1) just signed up for a project in DBS involving signal processing- seems to involve a lot of applied math, and is an engineering field (and not a basic math field if that’s what you’re interested in). I have zero skill in math beyond being really good at it in high school, but I’m excited to be involved- this is about as much math one can get in medicine imo.

If you stick with it and crank out a few papers, you can be one of those MDs with good research experience that industry finds desirable. Movement is very hot in industry right now. You would never be leading the engineering/modeling team without a PhD but could still be involved in cool projects. Check out "Analyzing Neural Time Series Data" by Mike X Cohen for a friendly primer. He has many excellent YouTube videos as well.

 

[ProReduction]

I have a colleague that is an md/phd. Phd in comp sci, heavily involved in AI since high
School and through fellowship. You know what he uses his md/phd for… cracking chests and rearranging plumbing in the heart. Same as anyone else. A real shame too… we always chat about tech stuff and you can see the passion he has for it. After work and family, he just doesn’t have bandwidth for any AI related work or hobbies

Amen. Clinical careers are simply not what they were 20 years ago. You have to go all in on research to really be successful. There is simply no way you can have an active clinical career and be at the front of basic science these days, especially in applied math and CS work.

 

[comewithme]

Thank you all for your responses so far, they give a valuable insight.

 

[comewithme]

What kind of role are you thinking of in tech?

That is a good question. My dream is to launch a neurology related start-up that would in some way contribute to the society e.g. accesible to many, almost commercial brain devices, such as stimulators so that folks with neurological diseases are not going to end up dead because of suicide, but to give them a new life instead so to speak. This is just one of the ideas and I know that sounds vague but I have no better answer to your question, probably because my neuro knowledge is not that vast and I simply do not see all the possible options for a company. My problem is that people who inspire me are not doctors but rather science enterpreneurs, someone who everyone knows is Elon Musk (yeah I know he is controversial to many, but he is a hero of mine) or maybe not so known Thomas Oxley (actually a doctor which is a rarity - neurologist turned enterpreneur).

So I don’t need to actually do all the work, but I certainly have to know how things work. How neural networks work, being comfortable with the field of computational neuroscience and have a basic knowledge in engineering are the things that come to mind. And on top of that have medical knowledge as well. Switching careers and working as a neuroscientist for a while wouldn’t be so bad but the end goal would be starting a company. If I didn’t want to start a company then working as a regular neurologist would be far more interesting than being a computational neuroscientist, data analyst or statistician but as you all have said I won’t gain necessary skills (math, engineering) to launch a company or rather to design a device or any tech product for that matter while being a neurologist.

I was wondering if becoming a neurologist first and then starting to gain tech knowledge would be good, because I would have a source of income, which I need. I think there is little possibilty that I can achieve all this before getting my MD degree which is less than two years now, given that I still need to study medical books right now if I want to finish medschool.

 

[ProReduction]

A word of caution. As a physician-turned-engineer, I get hit-up by Entrepreneurs, Founders, CEOs all the time to meet for consulting/advisor input. My litmus test for them is how they view Elon Musk. If they idolize him and are a zealot in the cult of Musk, then I know they have zero ability to detect fraud and grift. I never even have to ask. Musk just always comes up spontaneously. If they are in the cult it tells me it will be our one and only meeting. Nobody in the computational NS, neuroscience, neural engineering community takes Neuralink seriously at all. Oxley is a guy that is actually putting the work in, although endovascular applications have their limits.

 

[comewithme]

A word of caution. As a physician-turned-engineer, I get hit-up by Entrepreneurs, Founders, CEOs all the time to meet for consulting/advisor input. My litmus test for them is how they view Elon Musk. If they idolize him and are a zealot in the cult of Musk, then I know they have zero ability to detect fraud and grift. I never even have to ask. Musk just always comes up spontaneously. If they are in the cult it tells me it will be our one and only meeting. Nobody in the computational NS, neuroscience, neural engineering community takes Neuralink seriously at all. Oxley is a guy that is actually putting the work in, although endovascular applications have their limits.

Yes, I know about Neuralink controversy and all that. And perhaps that Musk isn’t big and liked among neuroscientists right now. You certainly have more experience in that field, hence your little test which people ale worth talking to and which are not, or which know their stuff and which don’t and I respect that. I like him for other reasons and I believe everyone has their opinion. That is why I stated he may be controversial, but what I wanted to say is what kind of people inspire me. Please don’t focus this much on who it is rather than my point itself.
Could you answer my other concers perhaps?

 

[neglect]

There is nothing beyond high school math in Neurology. There is also nothing beyond high school math anywhere in any clinical field. If you want to use advanced math, you would need to pursue an entirely different career in Computational Neuroscience, which usually draws from people with a Physics, Computer Science, Electrical Engineering, Neuroscience, or Biomedical Engineering background.

If you really enjoy objective, logically thinking (you like math), clinical Neurology will be a rough career for you (at least in the U.S.)

You could get into clinical trial analysis. But most of this is done by pure stats people.

There are also financial people who use some math.

 

[deathmerchant]

Yes, I know about Neuralink controversy and all that. And perhaps that Musk isn’t big and liked among neuroscientists right now. You certainly have more experience in that field, hence your little test which people ale worth talking to and which are not, or which know their stuff and which don’t and I respect that. I like him for other reasons and I believe everyone has their opinion. That is why I stated he may be controversial, but what I wanted to say is what kind of people inspire me. Please don’t focus this much on who it is rather than my point itself.
Could you answer my other concers perhaps?

Don't listen to biased advice. Im no 'fan' of him but nothing wrong with admiring him. Musk was/is hated by Big auto companies because he managed to disrupt one of the biggest industries against all odds. SpaceX is literally working as we speak to send people to MARS and NASA (which is one of the most respected company/Agency in the world) uses their services. He seems to be doing well with Twitter as well for now.

Neuralink is clearly in the early stages and they will make mistakes (and I know it upsets people, including me that he talks about it like they are doing something groundbreaking, that has never been done before); but gatekeeping is not going to work here. Even if it fails, why discourage a visionary. If it were upto some people we would have never landed on the moon.

That being said, these days you can yourself definitely use him as a litmus test to see how biased someone is.

 

[CnsCrit]

Oxley is probably the best example of what you're talking about...Remember he trained in medicine, neurology, has a PhD, and then did stroke and neuroIR fellowships, plus years of work forming his company. So it's a long pathway but obviously he's been very successful. The stentrode is absolutely incredible. If you're motivated and have an idea, you can figure it out and make it work, but I can guarantee it will take more years of dedicated time and basic research. If you keep plugging away and take opportunities, you can make it work, but it will likely be an unconventional pathway which I think is what others are alluding to. There is no path in medicine that leads you to the career you're thinking of, but that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist, you just have to make it yourself. Find mentors and collaborators that inspire you and have the knowledge to get you where you need to go, and go from there. Find an area of neurology that has the potential for technological expansion - you can see why Oxley picked stroke and IR.

 

[ProReduction]

Don't listen to biased advice. Im no 'fan' of him but nothing wrong with admiring him. Musk was/is hated by Big auto companies because he managed to disrupt one of the biggest industries against all odds. SpaceX is literally working as we speak to send people to MARS and NASA (which is one of the most respected company/Agency in the world) uses their services. He seems to be doing well with Twitter as well for now.

Neuralink is clearly in the early stages and they will make mistakes (and I know it upsets people, including me that he talks about it like they are doing something groundbreaking, that has never been done before); but gatekeeping is not going to work here. Even if it fails, why discourage a visionary. If it were upto some people we would have never landed on the moon.

That being said, these days you can yourself definitely use him as a litmus test to see how biased someone is.

Do not confuse what I am actually saying, that "great achievements will not be accomplished by cutting corners and fraud", with what you are accusing me of saying: "great achievements are not possible".

Seems to be doing well with Twitter? Are you not aware that advertisers have fled Twitter en masse and that the company is at risk of bankruptcy?

Are you not aware that Musk is on trial for securities fraud as well as for fraud in his claims surrounding FSD?

Yes, being an expert in a field, such as I am in neural engineering, makes you biased, especially when you recognize a complete imposter within your field. It is well-known among true expert in the neural engineering field that Musk was trying to push a completely non-functional product to market almost 10 years ago, and that this product was going to be invasive and not help patients. It probably would have killed some of them. Do not be fooled by a product manager like Musk pretending to be an engineer. If you know anyone that works at Tesla (I do) or that works with him at SpaceX (I do), they will tell you that his real skill is bullying "nerds" (the real engineers doing the work). He is not an engineer, despite how many people he has fooled to think he is.

We did not get on the moon via playboys writing sophomoric tweets. We got to the moon via researchers and engineers like myself, grinding away at problems quietly behind the scenes without prestige or popularity. The only analogy I can think of for you as a Neurologist was if all of your patients decided to listen to a NP with no real Neurology experience but that had 3 million followers on Tik Tok instead of listening to you, the actual Neurologist.

If you need an engineer to worship, you should go with RJ Scaringe.

 

[Aldertonghen]

If you stick with it and crank out a few papers, you can be one of those MDs with good research experience that industry finds desirable. Movement is very hot in industry right now. You would never be leading the engineering/modeling team without a PhD but could still be involved in cool projects. Check out "Analyzing Neural Time Series Data" by Mike X Cohen for a friendly primer. He has many excellent YouTube videos as well.

Thanks for the recs, will check his videos out. The problem is even though I signed up for a DBS project for Parkinson’s, I don’t think I want to end up as a movement disorders specialist from a clinical perspective at this stage- I simply want to learn skills that I could transfer to other specialties I’m more interested in- stroke/NIR, epilepsy, maaaybe pain, and the reason is my program is simply not as good at these specialties (from a neuromodulation perspective) as it is in movement- all my stroke/NCC/epilepsy attendings are clinical trial oriented (and not CS/applied math, which the movement attendings are). Is this a dumb idea though?

Oxley is definitely someone I have a huge respect for and want to be like- doing NIR from neurology is hard enough, putting a promising product out is incredible. I feel if I don’t make it as a researcher (the odds are quite high tbh), then atleast being the guy who puts in say stentrodes into people’s brains (and clinically finding ways to do that more safely), is what I’d like to be.

 

[deathmerchant]

Im sorry to say but your claims are not based on facts but bias. Because I have discussed with people who make the same arguments and have the same feelings like yours. IMO, most of your statements are factually incorrect and arguments logically flawed. No one is saying Musk has personally invented all or any of these things. But, Im not going to go back and forth with you because I know its not going to change any minds.

 

[Hank_Hill_MD]

The only analogy I can think of for you as a Neurologist was if all of your patients decided to listen to a NP with no real Neurology experience but that had 3 million followers on Tik Tok instead of listening to you, the actual Neurologist.

To be fair, there's at least 3-4 such patients every week in my resident clinic

Except it doesn't have to be an NP with 3 million followers, it could be a chiropractor or naturopath with a couple thousand

 

[comewithme]

Do not confuse what I am actually saying, that "great achievements will not be accomplished by cutting corners and fraud", with what you are accusing me of saying: "great achievements are not possible".

Seems to be doing well with Twitter? Are you not aware that advertisers have fled Twitter en masse and that the company is at risk of bankruptcy?

Are you not aware that Musk is on trial for securities fraud as well as for fraud in his claims surrounding FSD?

Yes, being an expert in a field, such as I am in neural engineering, makes you biased, especially when you recognize a complete imposter within your field. It is well-known among true expert in the neural engineering field that Musk was trying to push a completely non-functional product to market almost 10 years ago, and that this product was going to be invasive and not help patients. It probably would have killed some of them. Do not be fooled by a product manager like Musk pretending to be an engineer. If you know anyone that works at Tesla (I do) or that works with him at SpaceX (I do), they will tell you that his real skill is bullying "nerds" (the real engineers doing the work). He is not an engineer, despite how many people he has fooled to think he is.

We did not get on the moon via playboys writing sophomoric tweets. We got to the moon via researchers and engineers like myself, grinding away at problems quietly behind the scenes without prestige or popularity. The only analogy I can think of for you as a Neurologist was if all of your patients decided to listen to a NP with no real Neurology experience but that had 3 million followers on Tik Tok instead of listening to you, the actual Neurologist.

If you need an engineer to worship, you should go with RJ Scaringe.

In my previous response to you, after you introduced yourself as a physician turned engineer I specifically asked for your advice because that is the path I am interested in and here you are, the guy who did exactly that. But instead you feel the need to undermine my admiration for Elon, sounding bitter and jealous. Could I ask you instead to tell me how you transitioned from physician (I assume you were a neurologist) and describe how it looked like along the way, essentially what stages you have gone through, what you did. I would be very grateful.

 

[neglect]

Oxley is definitely someone I have a huge respect for and want to be like- doing NIR from neurology is hard enough, putting a promising product out is incredible. I feel if I don’t make it as a researcher (the odds are quite high tbh), then atleast being the guy who puts in say stentrodes into people’s brains (and clinically finding ways to do that more safely), is what I’d like to be.

Created a venous stent that can pick up a single signal? That has a wire to a battery in the abdomen?

What’s the market for such a thing?

The complication rate must be horrific once they do over a dozen procedures on these people.

 

[ProReduction]

Im sorry to say but your claims are not based on facts but bias. Because I have discussed with people who make the same arguments and have the same feelings like yours. IMO, most of your statements are factually incorrect and arguments logically flawed. No one is saying Musk has personally invented all or any of these things. But, Im not going to go back and forth with you because I know its not going to change any minds.

Him trying to push a non-working product to market for neural stimulation is from first-hand experience. I told you that I work in this field. This is not some vague readings of Reddit musings. Take it or leave it. The reason it never made big news is because researchers that know what they are doing stopped it from happening.

But since you seem to think my claims are "factually incorrect" despite them being indisputable facts, hopefully you believe in vetted journalism.

Here is a story confirming my claim that he is on trial for securities fraud from WAPO:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/01/23/elon-musk-tesla-trial/

Here is a story on the many lawsuits he is facing for fraud in his FSD claims:

Tesla is sued by drivers over alleged false Autopilot, Full Self-Driving claims

Tesla Inc was sued on Wednesday in a proposed class action accusing Elon Musk's electric car company of misleading the public by falsely advertising its Autopilot and Full Self-Driving features.

www.reuters.com

Here is a Tesla Engineer confirming that he personally staged a fake Full Self Driving expo at Musk direction:

Top Tesla engineer confesses he staged inaccurate Autopilot video at Elon Musk’s bidding

The video that served to launch Tesla's vaunted Full Self-Driving feature was never "intended to accurately portray what was available for customers" according to testimony by Ashok Elluswamy.

fortune.com

 

[ProReduction]

In my previous response to you, after you introduced yourself as a physician turned engineer I specifically asked for your advice because that is the path I am interested in and here you are, the guy who did exactly that. But instead you feel the need to undermine my admiration for Elon, sounding bitter and jealous. Could I ask you instead to tell me how you transitioned from physician (I assume you were a neurologist) and describe how it looked like along the way, essentially what stages you have gone through, what you did. I would be very grateful.

My transition consisted of starting by doing research in neural engineering during residency and fellowship, after more wet lab experience when I was younger, then pursuing multiple quantitative/STEM graduate degrees. It is a long path and you have to go all in on it. I made sure to go back and train in the foundational courses such as probability theory, linear algebra, differential equations too. You can miss a great deal if you jump straight to more advanced courses.
There is certainly no jealousy of Musk. But it vexes me that domain "experts" like Neurologists still can't see through the noise to the truth. As I have said, take it or leave the truth about his involvement in BCI. He is an effective program manager but the line between Musk and Elizabeth Holmes is more thin than you can imagine. Meeting with tons of founders and entrepreneurs, you get a great radar for BS vs real potential and sales vs science.

 

[Telamir]

Elon Musk is a clown.

That is all.

 

[confused_doc]

Hi OP I'm a former physician who went into medical AI research and like you I craved the opportunity to do advanced math and logical problem solving on a daily basis. I was also drawn to neurology and some of the other cerebral specialties, but as one of the neurologists pointed out, in general, practising medicine is about enjoying the bread and butter, and using pattern recognition to diagnose rather than complex logical problem solving. Also you should really enjoy interacting with patients and find that fulfilling.

Like the physician turned engineer I did a postgrad degree (Master's) in Computer Science after working as a doctor for a few years, where I learned all the foundational linear algebra, calculus, probability theory as well as machine learning etc needed to start transitioning into the field. Then I worked as a researcher in applied medical AI at a university, before transitioning into the health tech industry.

If you want to work in this space in industry a PhD is advised but a master's for the Machine Learning engineering roles tend to be the minimum. Unfortunately your medical degree surprisingly confers no advantage in the Big Tech orgs as it's run by people with computer science backgrounds so they tend to value technical expertise much more than domain knowledge for these positions. Smaller companies will definitely appreciate it though. Also everyone will appreciate a board certified attending with many years of experience in a consulting/project leader role but of course not a technical role.

There are few jobs in the health AI space relative to the tech industry as a whole, but the ones that do exist tend to pay well and it's very interesting and challenging work if you like advanced math and computer science. I would definitely recommend it! Being a physician scientist where you do 80% research and 20% clinical work would be a great option too!

 

[ProReduction]

Hi OP I'm a former physician who went into medical AI research and like you I craved the opportunity to do advanced math and logical problem solving on a daily basis. I was also drawn to neurology and some of the other cerebral specialties, but as one of the neurologists pointed out, in general, practising medicine is about enjoying the bread and butter, and using pattern recognition to diagnose rather than complex logical problem solving. Also you should really enjoy interacting with patients and find that fulfilling.

Like the physician turned engineer I did a postgrad degree (Master's) in Computer Science after working as a doctor for a few years, where I learned all the foundational linear algebra, calculus, probability theory as well as machine learning etc needed to start transitioning into the field. Then I worked as a researcher in applied medical AI at a university, before transitioning into the health tech industry.

If you want to work in this space in industry a PhD is advised but a master's for the Machine Learning engineering roles tend to be the minimum. Unfortunately your medical degree surprisingly confers no advantage in the Big Tech orgs as it's run by people with computer science backgrounds so they tend to value technical expertise much more than domain knowledge for these positions. Smaller companies will definitely appreciate it though. Also everyone will appreciate a board certified attending with many years of experience in a consulting/project leader role but of course not a technical role.

There are few jobs in the health AI space relative to the tech industry as a whole, but the ones that do exist tend to pay well and it's very interesting and challenging work if you like advanced math and computer science. I would definitely recommend it! Being a physician scientist where you do 80% research and 20% clinical work would be a great option too!

Amen. To the OP, the theme is that those of us that have made the pivot had to reinvent ourselves and embark on an entirely new career. Nights, weekends, holidays were spent (and continue to be spent) coding, doing math problems, reading NeurIPS and ICML papers, etc. We put in the hard work and went back and got STEM graduate degrees. Unless you do that, no matter how much self-teaching you do, the engineers ("technical people") will always see you as the clinician. Even in the role of clinician your input will be valued, but you will not be "one of them" unless you walk through the fire. It is challenging. My STEM graduate degrees were magnitudes more difficult than anything in medical school, residency, or fellowship but so rewarding because this is exactly what I want to do. However, there is nothing in clinical Neurology that is close to anything in STEM. It does not give you a foundation. You have to start from scratch.

 

[Aldertonghen]

Amen. To the OP, the theme is that those of us that have made the pivot had to reinvent ourselves and embark on an entirely new career. Nights, weekends, holidays were spent (and continue to be spent) coding, doing math problems, reading NeurIPS and ICML papers, etc. We put in the hard work and went back and got STEM graduate degrees. Unless you do that, no matter how much self-teaching you do, the engineers ("technical people") will always see you as the clinician. Even in the role of clinician your input will be valued, but you will not be "one of them" unless you walk through the fire. It is challenging. My STEM graduate degrees were magnitudes more difficult than anything in medical school, residency, or fellowship but so rewarding because this is exactly what I want to do. However, there is nothing in clinical Neurology that is close to anything in STEM. It does not give you a foundation. You have to start from scratch.

What fellowship did you go into? Was it stroke? And currently, are you still involved in clinical neurology in any aspect at all, or have you fully transitioned to STEM research?

 

[neglect]

Amen. To the OP, the theme is that those of us that have made the pivot had to reinvent ourselves and embark on an entirely new career. Nights, weekends, holidays were spent (and continue to be spent) coding, doing math problems, reading NeurIPS and ICML papers, etc. We put in the hard work and went back and got STEM graduate degrees. Unless you do that, no matter how much self-teaching you do, the engineers ("technical people") will always see you as the clinician. Even in the role of clinician your input will be valued, but you will not be "one of them" unless you walk through the fire. It is challenging. My STEM graduate degrees were magnitudes more difficult than anything in medical school, residency, or fellowship but so rewarding because this is exactly what I want to do. However, there is nothing in clinical Neurology that is close to anything in STEM. It does not give you a foundation. You have to start from scratch.

Wow. Deepest admiration to you. I hope that the medical degree isn't a total waste. Did you love the neuronal interface that much or do you hate seeing patients?

@comewithme - what's left unsaid are hundreds of thousands of dollars of lost opportunity costs. The pathway MD to intern to neurology residency to fellowship to job is long enough. Now add the above and you're probably living in an apartment until your 35 while all your friends gain wealth, houses, wives, and kids. Forget about working weekends, this is real sacrifice.

It makes Musk's shenanigans, puffery, and outright lies all the worse.

 

[ProReduction]

Wow. Deepest admiration to you. I hope that the medical degree isn't a total waste. Did you love the neuronal interface that much or do you hate seeing patients?

@comewithme - what's left unsaid are hundreds of thousands of dollars of lost opportunity costs. The pathway MD to intern to neurology residency to fellowship to job is long enough. Now add the above and you're probably living in an apartment until your 35 while all your friends gain wealth, houses, wives, and kids. Forget about working weekends, this is real sacrifice.

It makes Musk's shenanigans, puffery, and outright lies all the worse.

Thank you. In retrospect I definitely would not have gone to medical school, but such is life. I was not the most mature 18-21 year old and sort of lacked direction. I always thought that being a doctor would be a great blend of "research and human interaction". Despite working in hospitals before going to medical school, I still think that going straight from undergrad to medical school, I had no true grasp over what the career actually entailed. I think this happens to many first-in-family doctors. Plus, when I was 18 I thought that being an engineer meant being in a dark, back room as a hermit.

 

[neglect]

Thank you. In retrospect I definitely would not have gone to medical school, but such is life. I was not the most mature 18-21 year old and sort of lacked direction. I always thought that being a doctor would be a great blend of "research and human interaction". Despite working in hospitals before going to medical school, I still think that going straight from undergrad to medical school, I had no true grasp over what the career actually entailed. I think this happens to many first-in-family doctors. Plus, when I was 18 I thought that being an engineer meant being in a dark, back room as a hermit.

This is kinda funny. I am also stumbled into medicine, but I found it rewarding enough (thanks to being a PI on clinical trials and really feeling like I'm making a difference with every consent, lab result, query resolution, etc).

In retrospect there's no way I'd do medicine at all. You can have a terrific impact outside medicine with much less distraction. So really utmost respect for you guys.

And now I see things from the other direction. My children have no interest in taking care of other people. This leads me to an important recommendation: do not go to med school. Kinda easy concept.

 

[Spinothalamic]

This is kinda funny. I am also stumbled into medicine, but I found it rewarding enough (thanks to being a PI on clinical trials and really feeling like I'm making a difference with every consent, lab result, query resolution, etc).

In retrospect there's no way I'd do medicine at all. You can have a terrific impact outside medicine with much less distraction. So really utmost respect for you guys.

And now I see things from the other direction. My children have no interest in taking care of other people. This leads me to an important recommendation: do not go to med school. Kinda easy concept.

What I didn’t realize about medicine is that no matter how hard you try and how much you care for patients (including going out of your way for them or spending extra time with them), there will be many that will hate you, or blame you for their problems, or get mad when there is not a pill to cure their problems, or get mad when you recommend they stop taking certain pills that are causing their problems, or become upset with you and your office because the primary care physician didn’t send the MRI results prior to the consultation, or become visibly angry when you politely explain that you are actually not the specialist that they really need to see and the referral was not correct to begin with, etc.

I felt that being a doctor was a career where you can go room to room literally curing/helping people and helping grateful patients navigate difficult times. While that certainly can be true, there are also the patients that you cannot *really* help or that get horrible side effects from the potentially life-saving or limb-saving treatments you may prescribe.

 

[comewithme]

Wow. Deepest admiration to you. I hope that the medical degree isn't a total waste. Did you love the neuronal interface that much or do you hate seeing patients?

@comewithme - what's left unsaid are hundreds of thousands of dollars of lost opportunity costs. The pathway MD to intern to neurology residency to fellowship to job is long enough. Now add the above and you're probably living in an apartment until your 35 while all your friends gain wealth, houses, wives, and kids. Forget about working weekends, this is real sacrifice.

It makes Musk's shenanigans, puffery, and outright lies all the worse.

By lost opportunity costs you mean not starting right away what I want to start, that is right after I get my medical degree. And instead just putting it off by going to neuro residency?
That is counterintuitive to me I must say, because if I am going to choose to start over on a different path, which is getting a STEM degree, I will be around 30 years old without money and/or a job.

 

[comewithme]

@confused_doc @ProReduction Thank you for your great responses. I see that we share similar feelings. And it all sounds so good in theory, but how did you get your degrees practically speaking? How did you cope financially? I mean when you started your technical degree on a different University after you finished medschool. Did your parents pay all your bills etc.? Maybe you got a loan? Did you study at the university on weekends and worked as a doctor during the week, or did you study full time? Because after getting my MD degree I need to work for a living (I will be 26 y.o.). I have nothing against spending another 3 years getting my Bachelors, then 2 getting Masters, but well you need to pay the bills and in order to do that one needs an income.

My plan is to get Bachelors degree in Microengineering (if I’m going to study I plan on doing it so in Switzerland; I’m from Poland)

https://www.epfl.ch/education/bachelor/programs/microengineering/

Followed by Masters in Neuro-X:

https://www.epfl.ch/education/master/programs/neuro-x/

 

[ProReduction]

@confused_doc @ProReduction Thank you for your great responses. I see that we share similar feelings. And it all sounds so good in theory, but how did you get your degrees practically speaking? How did you cope financially? I mean when you started your technical degree on a different University after you finished medschool. Did your parents pay all your bills etc.? Maybe you got a loan? Did you study at the university on weekends and worked as a doctor during the week, or did you study full time? Because after getting my MD degree I need to work for a living (I will be 26 y.o.). I have nothing against spending another 3 years getting my Bachelors, then 2 getting Masters, but well you need to pay the bills and in order to do that one needs an income.

My plan is to get Bachelors degree in Microengineering (if I’m going to study I plan on doing it so in Switzerland; I’m from Poland)

https://www.epfl.ch/education/bachelor/programs/microengineering/

Followed by Masters in Neuro-X:

https://www.epfl.ch/education/master/programs/neuro-x/

I started my first STEM graduate degree 6 months after starting as an attending while working full time 1.0 FTE (was really working more like 1.5 FTE).

The Neuro-X degree looks awesome and EPFL is obviously one of the top centers in the world for neural engineering. I think to really take advantage of all their cutting-edge research you'd want to be on-campus for sure.

 

[comewithme]

I started my first STEM graduate degree 6 months after starting as an attending while working full time 1.0 FTE (was really working more like 1.5 FTE).

The Neuro-X degree looks awesome and EPFL is obviously one of the top centers in the world for neural engineering. I think to really take advantage of all their cutting-edge research you'd want to be on-campus for sure.

I am glad you like it, because the name of the degree, Neuro-X, is not something I’ve ever encountered and I wondered if it’s any good. So, if you have been working full time, or even more than that as you say, when were you studying at the uni? I mean what days, what hours?

 

[neglect]

What I didn’t realize about medicine is that no matter how hard you try and how much you care for patients (including going out of your way for them or spending extra time with them), there will be many that will hate you, or blame you for their problems, or get mad when there is not a pill to cure their problems, or get mad when you recommend they stop taking certain pills that are causing their problems, or become upset with you and your office because the primary care physician didn’t send the MRI results prior to the consultation, or become visibly angry when you politely explain that you are actually not the specialist that they really need to see and the referral was not correct to begin with, etc.

I felt that being a doctor was a career where you can go room to room literally curing/helping people and helping grateful patients navigate difficult times. While that certainly can be true, there are also the patients that you cannot *really* help or that get horrible side effects from the potentially life-saving or limb-saving treatments you may prescribe.

I'm getting PTSD from your post. I don't know your age, but with time, gray, and some wrinkles, patients start believing you. I've also found my tone changing to be polite - still firm, but a bit slower and careful. Know hope.

That said, this brings me back to some horrible conversations. Declared death on a patient and I thought his son was going to hit me. Kid was like "so you're telling me that he's brain dead? And you're just going to turn off the machines?" (It took 20 min to get to that point.) Wow. Another daughter started screeching at me that her mother cannot have Alzheimer's disease and that she knows people in the media, name drops people like Walter Cronkite. Nevermind the people who have FND that they cannot accept, or hypochondriasis that they cannot accept. Just horrible.

Again, slow voice, gray hair, channel kindness, know hope.

 

[Telamir]

Again, slow voice, gray hair, channel kindness, know hope.

And bourbon at home.

That stuff is exhausting no matter what. I've never had anyone get violent but I had to deliver brain death news to a room that reeked of weed and as soon as I mentioned brain death everyone started wailing and screaming, with one person asking me about a brain transplant.

I don't smoke, but I felt like a cigarette after.

 

[ProReduction]

I am glad you like it, because the name of the degree, Neuro-X, is not something I’ve ever encountered and I wondered if it’s any good. So, if you have been working full time, or even more than that as you say, when were you studying at the uni? I mean what days, what hours?

Work during the day, class at night or when off-service. Make sure you are not on-call during class. And if you are, the professor will get it and you will excuse yourself to deal with the clinical issue. In the U.S., many top universities are gearing their Masters programs to working professionals in a hybrid model where in-person and online classes can be attended, whether live classes online or posted recordings of the in-person classes. Every Computer Science class I have ever taken has been in the evening, with many starting as late as 1800 or 1900 local time and ending as late as 2200 local time. This is so that students with full-time jobs are able to attend, either in-person or via Zoom/online. My most recent STEM graduate degree was officially in-person, but much of the credits were earned during COVID, so in reality only 2 classes required in-person attendance. The rest were via Zoom or other remote platform.

Two top programs in the U.S. that are online for MS in CS:

Online Master of Computer Science

Online Master of Computer Science

cs.illinois.edu

Computer Science – Online Degree (MS)

Are you ready to earn your master's in computer science but not ready to stop working? Do you want a top-ranked degree without the top-ranked price tag? If so, Georgia Tech has the answer. We have teamed up with Udacity and AT&T to offer the first online Master of Science in Computer Science...

www.gatech.edu

Note that for University of Illinois:

• Applicants who do not hold a bachelor’s degree in computer science must have sufficient background in computer programming, data structures and algorithms, computer architecture, and theory of computation. We highly recommend applicants complete courses in these areas at a local university near them prior to submitting their application.

They are not going to take a Neurologist without the necessary background, so taking Linear Algebra and the necessary prerequisites is where you would start.

 

[comewithme]

Work during the day, class at night or when off-service. Make sure you are not on-call during class. And if you are, the professor will get it and you will excuse yourself to deal with the clinical issue. In the U.S., many top universities are gearing their Masters programs to working professionals in a hybrid model where in-person and online classes can be attended, whether live classes online or posted recordings of the in-person classes. Every Computer Science class I have ever taken has been in the evening, with many starting as late as 1800 or 1900 local time and ending as late as 2200 local time. This is so that students with full-time jobs are able to attend, either in-person or via Zoom/online. My most recent STEM graduate degree was officially in-person, but much of the credits were earned during COVID, so in reality only 2 classes required in-person attendance. The rest were via Zoom or other remote platform.

Two top programs in the U.S. that are online for MS in CS:

Online Master of Computer Science

Online Master of Computer Science

cs.illinois.edu

Computer Science – Online Degree (MS)

Are you ready to earn your master's in computer science but not ready to stop working? Do you want a top-ranked degree without the top-ranked price tag? If so, Georgia Tech has the answer. We have teamed up with Udacity and AT&T to offer the first online Master of Science in Computer Science...

www.gatech.edu

Note that for University of Illinois:

• Applicants who do not hold a bachelor’s degree in computer science must have sufficient background in computer programming, data structures and algorithms, computer architecture, and theory of computation. We highly recommend applicants complete courses in these areas at a local university near them prior to submitting their application.

They are not going to take a Neurologist without the necessary background, so taking Linear Algebra and the necessary prerequisites is where you would start.

Wow, the late classes are such a cool thing, this would solve all my problems. We do not have such in Poland hence I am quite surprised. I wonder if they have these at EPFL. Also - if I understood correctly - can you do Master degree without getting Bachelor first, if you already have one Master degree (like MD)? Because I do not see such information on EPFL site, and the admission requirements for Neuro-X state that you need to possess Bachelor degree in one of their engineering courses. It would make a huge difference - instead of going MD -> Microengineering -> Neuro-X, I’d skip Microengineering.

 

[neglect]

And bourbon at home.

That stuff is exhausting no matter what. I've never had anyone get violent but I had to deliver brain death news to a room that reeked of weed and as soon as I mentioned brain death everyone started wailing and screaming, with one person asking me about a brain transplant.

I don't smoke, but I felt like a cigarette after.

Is there any help that's not a total joke? One of my friends was attacked during a palliative meeting and went on with her day. No offers of counseling or a break. The hospital admins just asked if she wanted to press charges (she didn't).