Neurology chances as a DO

[neurogeek105]

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Hey everyone. So I just got my USMLE Step 1 and COMLEX part 1 scores. USMLE= mid 230's and COMLEX=mid 660's. I'm planning to do more research (did quite a bit of neurology-related research between college and med school as well as prior to that). Do I have a reasonable shot at ACGME neurology programs?

Thanks for your help!

 

[Postictal Raiden]

According to NRMP charting outcome, US seniors with your step1 score had 100% match rate while foreign grads had 71% match rate. If we assume that the chances for DOs lie somewhere between the two numbers, then your chances are ~86% based on step1 score alone. Now, considering your research background, you may have better odds than an average DO student with no research experience. I say that if you apply broadly, you will get tons of interviews.

 

[neurogeek105]

According to NRMP charting outcome, US seniors with your step1 score had 100% match rate while foreign grads had 71% match rate. If we assume that the chances for DOs lie somewhere between the two numbers, then your chances are ~86% based on step1 score alone. Now, considering your research background, you may have better odds than an average DO student with no research experience. I say that if you apply broadly, you will get tons of interviews.

Okay, ~86%...maybe higher...I can dig it. 🙂 Thanks!

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

According to NRMP charting outcome, US seniors with your step1 score had 100% match rate while foreign grads had 71% match rate. If we assume that the chances for DOs lie somewhere between the two numbers, then your chances are ~86% based on step1 score alone. Now, considering your research background, you may have better odds than an average DO student with no research experience. I say that if you apply broadly, you will get tons of interviews.

I could be entirely wrong, but I'm under the impression that Neurology isn't very competitive and generally DO friendly.

A few years ago when I still could see myself not absolutely hating Neuro, I thought the saying was you generally needed a pulse to get in.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

I could be entirely wrong, but I'm under the impression that Neurology isn't very competitive and generally DO friendly.

A few years ago when I still could see myself not absolutely hating Neuro, I thought the saying was you generally needed a pulse to get in.

Yeah, neuro is a very DO friendly field. My school had impressive neuro matches last cycle (USC, UCI, UC Davis, Cleveland). The fact that more than third of the spots are filled by FMG's shows that the field isn't highly sought after by USMDs.

With that said, it's worth mentioning that the mean step1 for Neurology is on par with that of anesthesiology, EM, IM and even general surgery. It's higher than that of FM, OBGYN, Peds, PMR, and psych. This demonstrates that the field, despite not being highly desirable by USMDs, still attracts bright minds. I guess, Neurology in a way is a self-selective field. The pay isn't high (vs EM) and the hours aren't that pleasant (vs psych). Therefore, the field only attracts those are genuinely interested in it.

Neurology, along with IM, are the only two fields I'm considering at this moment, so take my biased opinion with a huge grain of salt.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Yeah, neuro is a very DO friendly field. My school had impressive neuro matches last cycle (USC, UCI, UC Davis, Cleveland). The fact that more than third of the spots are filled by FMG's shows that the field isn't highly sought after by USMDs.

With that said, it's worth mentioning that the mean step1 for Neurology is on par with that of anesthesiology, EM, IM and even general surgery. It's higher than that of FM, OBGYN, Peds, PMR, and psych. This demonstrates that the field, despite not being highly desirable by USMDs, still attracts bright minds. I guess, Neurology in a way is a self-selective field. The pay isn't high (vs EM) and the hours aren't that pleasant (vs psych). Therefore, the field only attracts those are genuinely interested in it.

Neurology, along with IM, are the only two fields I'm considering at this moment, so take my biased opinion with a huge grain of salt.

In both those cases, what is the difference in match statistics of someone with a 200, 210, 220, 230, and 240 for example? I mean clearly where you're going to match will change significantly, but will it suddenly become an impossibility for someone with a lower score?

And I think neuro is hit or miss. Either you find it fascinating and humbling or you don't.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

In both those cases, what is the difference in match statistics of someone with a 200, 210, 220, 230, and 240 for example? I mean clearly where you're going to match will change significantly, but will it suddenly become an impossibility for someone with a lower score?

And I think neuro is hit or miss. Either you find it fascinating and humbling or you don't.

Looking at NRMP Charting Outcome will give you a good idea. I find it interesting that for a USMD grad, the odds of matching in most specialties have very small correlation with step1 score. Aside from the ultra competitive fields, USMDs can match any specialty with any passing step1 score. On the other hand, Independent Applicants (DOs, IMGs and FMGs) need to meet some minimum score to have a good chance at matching. In regards to the two specialties you highlighted, to have a reasonable shot at matching anesthesiology, an independent applicant would need a minimum of 221. For neurology, the number is 231. My personal criteria for "reasonable shot" is 70% or above, but feel free to disagree.

 

[Goro]

COMLEX of 660? You must be one of my students!
😉

Hey everyone. So I just got my USMLE Step 1 and COMLEX part 1 scores. USMLE= mid 230's and COMLEX=mid 660's. I'm planning to do more research (did quite a bit of neurology-related research between college and med school as well as prior to that). Do I have a reasonable shot at ACGME neurology programs?

Thanks for your help!

 

[JustPlainBill]

COMLEX of 660? You must be one of my students!
😉

That was intuitively obvious to the most casual observer, Goro!

And on that note ---

Sorry, I couldn't help myself -- I just had a patient ask me what the difference was between a D.O. and an M.D. to which I responded," Well, we hold our classes at midnight, around a fire wearing dark robes, throwing leaves in the air and swinging cats around by the tail and then, as the wine kicks in, we start dancing naked before the fire while eating skewers of roasted meat"..... I thought they were going to faint.....

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Looking at NRMP Charting Outcome will give you a good idea. I find it interesting that for a USMD grad, the odds of matching in most specialties have very small correlation with step1 score. Aside from the ultra competitive fields, USMDs can match any specialty with any passing step1 score. On the other hand, Independent Applicants (DOs, IMGs and FMGs) need to meet some minimum score to have a good chance at matching. In regards to the two specialties you highlighted, to have a reasonable shot at matching anesthesiology, an independent applicant would need a minimum of 221. For neurology, the number is 231. My personal criteria for "reasonable shot" is 70% or above, but feel free to disagree.

The question is DO versus IMG and FMG though. The charting outcomes in the end just proves to be a bit less helpful in that respect.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

The question is DO versus IMG and FMG though. The charting outcomes in the end just proves to be a bit less helpful in that respect.

True. For that reason, in my first response to OP's question, I wrote that DOs perform somewhere between USMDs and foreign grads.

 

[hallowmann]

Not just reasonable, you have a very good shot at any Neuro programs that take DOs (which is most of them). Still apply early and broadly and go on plenty of interviews, but you should be fine.

 

[Mad Jack]

Yeah, neuro is a very DO friendly field. My school had impressive neuro matches last cycle (USC, UCI, UC Davis, Cleveland). The fact that more than third of the spots are filled by FMG's shows that the field isn't highly sought after by USMDs.

With that said, it's worth mentioning that the mean step1 for Neurology is on par with that of anesthesiology, EM, IM and even general surgery. It's higher than that of FM, OBGYN, Peds, PMR, and psych. This demonstrates that the field, despite not being highly desirable by USMDs, still attracts bright minds. I guess, Neurology in a way is a self-selective field. The pay isn't high (vs EM) and the hours aren't that pleasant (vs psych). Therefore, the field only attracts those are genuinely interested in it.

Neurology, along with IM, are the only two fields I'm considering at this moment, so take my biased opinion with a huge grain of salt.

Really? With your step scores you could do damn near anything. Not that I'm one to talk- even if I had a 250 I'd still be leaning heavily toward psych.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Really? With your step scores you could do damn near anything. Not that I'm one to talk- even if I had a 250 I'd still be leaning heavily toward psych.

Aside from the fact that Neuroscience was my favorite course in med school, I believe neurology is a great fit for me because it's more about thinking and less about doing. The hours are better than surgical specialties and the pay is better than primary care. The job market is as good as FM and psych, so that's a great incentive too.

Besides, I never understand why something like general surgery is competitive. The way I see it, you do well in preclinical years and ace your boards, now your reward is to specialize in something that allows you to be a doctor while working human hours. Also, I find it counterintuitive that fields like neurology/IM/Psych, which obviously require more thinking and knowledge of tiny details than fields like Ortho, would be more obtainable to below average students.

 

[Mad Jack]

Aside from the fact that Neuroscience was my favorite course in med school, I believe neurology is a great fit for me because it's more about thinking and less about doing. The hours are better than surgical specialties and the pay is better than primary care. The job market is as good as FM and psych, so that's a great incentive too.

Besides, I never understand why something like general surgery is competitive. The way I see it, you do well in preclinical years and ace your boards, now your reward is to specialize in something that allows you to be a doctor while working human hours. Also, I find it counterintuitive that fields like neurology/IM/Psych, which obviously require more thinking and knowledge of tiny details than fields like Ortho, would be more obtainable to below average students.

I know the feel of bolded so much, lol. I'm just not a hands-on doer kind of guy.

Plus why am I going to bust my ass and suffer in medical school just to bust my ass and suffer in residency so I can bust my ass and suffer in fellowship so that I can continue to work grueling hours and suffer for the rest of my career?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Really? With your step scores you could do damn near anything. Not that I'm one to talk- even if I had a 250 I'd still be leaning heavily toward psych.

Back to psych eh? Haha

We need to keep psych quiet man. Psych forum makes one think that by the time we're applying it'll have a 250 average XD

 

[Mad Jack]

Back to psych eh? Haha

We need to keep psych quiet man. Psych forum makes one think that by the time we're applying it'll have a 250 average XD

Oh, I am not worried. Do you have any idea how many times a day I have to hear, "you are going through all of medical school just to be a psychiatrist?" Between that and the patient population, which many people find to be insufferable, I have no doubt psych will continue to be a lower tier field. To most, it's basically a zero prestige job where you don't "save" lives, don't get to use most of your medical training, and deal with difficult people- not exactly the sort of thing medical students are clamoring to do.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Oh, I am not worried. Do you have any idea how many times a day I have to hear, "you are going through all of medical school just to be a psychiatrist?" Between that and the patient population, which many people find to be insufferable, I have no doubt psych will continue to be a lower tier field. To most, it's basically a zero prestige job where you don't "save" lives, don't get to use most of your medical training, and deal with difficult people- not exactly the sort of thing medical students are clamoring to do.

Lol I'll take difficult pts over ruptured guts and 80 hour work weeks.

I just wish I knew what I actually needed to be safe for psych tho. Like do I need the usmle. What will a 230 get me, etc.

 

[Ioannes Paulus]

Oh, I am not worried. Do you have any idea how many times a day I have to hear, "you are going through all of medical school just to be a psychiatrist?" Between that and the patient population, which many people find to be insufferable, I have no doubt psych will continue to be a lower tier field. To most, it's basically a zero prestige job where you don't "save" lives, don't get to use most of your medical training, and deal with difficult people- not exactly the sort of thing medical students are clamoring to do.

I just moved to CO to start school. My boy's school teacher recommended I take my son to a psych doctor for an evaluation. I kid you not 80% of the psych docs in CO are "cash only." Of the remaining 20% that do take insurance, 80% of them aren't taking new patients. The only 2 facilities that take insurance and are accepting new patients are Denver Health (formerly Denver General Hospital) and CU Medical Center. The earliest appointment I could find was in October at Denver Health. CU doesn't even look at pediatric/adolescent patients unless they have a letter from a psychologist AND school counselor prior to an intake appointment. It's crazy. I bet the situation is totally different in other states/locations.

 

[TheaterOfTheme]

Lol I'll take difficult pts over ruptured guts and 80 hour work weeks.

I just wish I knew what I actually needed to be safe for psych tho. Like do I need the usmle. What will a 230 get me, etc.

Why is that threshold hard to determine?

 

[Mad Jack]

I just moved to CO to start school. My boy's school teacher recommended I take my son to a psych doctor for an evaluation. I kid you not 80% of the psych docs in CO are "cash only." Of the remaining 20% that do take insurance, 80% of them aren't taking new patients. The only 2 facilities that take insurance and are accepting new patients are Denver Health (formerly Denver General Hospital) and CU Medical Center. The earliest appointment I could find was in October at Denver Health. CU doesn't even look at pediatric/adolescent patients unless they have a letter from a psychologist AND school counselor prior to an intake appointment. It's crazy. I bet the situation is totally different in other states/locations.

That's pretty typical actually, on all fronts.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Yeah, neuro is a very DO friendly field. My school had impressive neuro matches last cycle (USC, UCI, UC Davis, Cleveland). The fact that more than third of the spots are filled by FMG's shows that the field isn't highly sought after by USMDs.

With that said, it's worth mentioning that the mean step1 for Neurology is on par with that of anesthesiology, EM, IM and even general surgery. It's higher than that of FM, OBGYN, Peds, PMR, and psych. This demonstrates that the field, despite not being highly desirable by USMDs, still attracts bright minds. I guess, Neurology in a way is a self-selective field. The pay isn't high (vs EM) and the hours aren't that pleasant (vs psych). Therefore, the field only attracts those are genuinely interested in it.

Neurology, along with IM, are the only two fields I'm considering at this moment, so take my biased opinion with a huge grain of salt.

The bias is still pretty strong at the top programs (ex. Partners, Hokpins, Wash U, U Penn...). The highest I have seen DOs match are Mayo and Cleveland Clinic (wait I take that back, there was a Hopkins match from KCU long ago). I am kind of hoping you would be one of those DOs that does match in ones of those powerhouses 😉.

I kind of like neuroscience and felt neurology might be a good fit for me. It seems like neuroscience and cancer biology interest me at the moment. The fields that seem to have these are psych, neuro, PM&R, medical oncology, surgical oncology, and radiation oncology. I still want to keep myself open because there might be something that interests me that I never thought about before.

 

[neurogeek105]

Wow, thanks for all of the feedback! Goro, it sounds like it would have been very cool to have been one of your students! 🙂

I have only heard of a few DOs matching at the big powerhouses. Hopkins I think maybe had DO residents as of a few years ago, but only one or two per year. I'm keeping my options wide and varied though. I just started my 3rd year, so tackling all of my rotations for now/planning my electives. Is it wise to keep the electives all neuro-related if I want to do neurology?

 

[jd1031]

Hey everyone. So I just got my USMLE Step 1 and COMLEX part 1 scores. USMLE= mid 230's and COMLEX=mid 660's. I'm planning to do more research (did quite a bit of neurology-related research between college and med school as well as prior to that). Do I have a reasonable shot at ACGME neurology programs?

Thanks for your help!

Wow, thanks for all of the feedback! Goro, it sounds like it would have been very cool to have been one of your students! 🙂

I have only heard of a few DOs matching at the big powerhouses. Hopkins I think maybe had DO residents as of a few years ago, but only one or two per year. I'm keeping my options wide and varied though. I just started my 3rd year, so tackling all of my rotations for now/planning my electives. Is it wise to keep the electives all neuro-related if I want to do neurology?

Current neuro resident. Neurology is very DO friendly. I had pretty similar stats as you. Received a ton of interviews, even though I restricted my self geographically (mostly west coast and some north east). Got into one of my top choices. Assuming you're personable and have no red flags, you have a high chance of matching into neurology. Just get good LORs and you'll be fine. What I've been told is to get at least 1 IM LOR, 2 neurology LORs, and the last two are up to you.

It would help to do 1 neurology elective 3rd year. What matters more than your 3rd year electives are your sub-I rotations, especially since your school might not have a neuro residency program (and thus can't get a residency-associated neuro LOR from your home institution). Besides showing your face at a program you like, sub-Is are the ideal place to obtain good LORs (good LOR defined as a individualized/personal - aka non-generic - LOR from an attending at an ACGME residency program). Set up at least 2 neurology sub-Is at the beginning of your 4th year - one in July and one in August. Set them up as soon as possible starting around February of next year. The dates may be tricky to line-up with your personal schedule, and other people will want those sub-Is too. Ask for a LOR with every attending you work at least decently with and get them in as soon as you can, ideally before you submit your ERAS application. You'll be fine.

PM me if you have any questions.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Current neuro resident. Neurology is very DO friendly. I had pretty similar stats as you. Received a ton of interviews, even though I restricted my self geographically (mostly west coast and some north east). Got into one of my top choices. Assuming you're personable and have no red flags, you have a high chance of matching into neurology. Just get good LORs and you'll be fine. What I've been told is to get at least 1 IM LOR, 2 neurology LORs, and the last two are up to you.

It would help to do 1 neurology elective 3rd year. What matters more than your 3rd year electives are your sub-I rotations, especially since your school might not have a neuro residency program (and thus can't get a residency-associated neuro LOR from your home institution). Besides showing your face at a program you like, sub-Is are the ideal place to obtain good LORs (good LOR defined as a individualized/personal - aka non-generic - LOR from an attending at an ACGME residency program). Set up at least 2 neurology sub-Is at the beginning of your 4th year - one in July and one in August. Set them up as soon as possible starting around February of next year. The dates may be tricky to line-up with your personal schedule, and other people will want those sub-Is too. Ask for a LOR with every attending you work at least decently with and get them in as soon as you can, ideally before you submit your ERAS application. You'll be fine.

PM me if you have any questions.

Thank you for this informative post.

Did you have research experience/publication in med school?

 

[neurogeek105]

Current neuro resident. Neurology is very DO friendly. I had pretty similar stats as you. Received a ton of interviews, even though I restricted my self geographically (mostly west coast and some north east). Got into one of my top choices. Assuming you're personable and have no red flags, you have a high chance of matching into neurology. Just get good LORs and you'll be fine. What I've been told is to get at least 1 IM LOR, 2 neurology LORs, and the last two are up to you.

It would help to do 1 neurology elective 3rd year. What matters more than your 3rd year electives are your sub-I rotations, especially since your school might not have a neuro residency program (and thus can't get a residency-associated neuro LOR from your home institution). Besides showing your face at a program you like, sub-Is are the ideal place to obtain good LORs (good LOR defined as a individualized/personal - aka non-generic - LOR from an attending at an ACGME residency program). Set up at least 2 neurology sub-Is at the beginning of your 4th year - one in July and one in August. Set them up as soon as possible starting around February of next year. The dates may be tricky to line-up with your personal schedule, and other people will want those sub-Is too. Ask for a LOR with every attending you work at least decently with and get them in as soon as you can, ideally before you submit your ERAS application. You'll be fine.

PM me if you have any questions.

Thank you! Super helpful! Definitely hoping to do an ACGME neuro elective this year. The challenge now is figuring out when to do that vs. when to schedule my Part 2 PE/CE and Step 2 CK (should we also do CS?).

 

[jd1031]

Thank you for this informative post.

Did you have research experience/publication in med school?

Yes. (No masters or PhD).

Thank you! Super helpful! Definitely hoping to do an ACGME neuro elective this year. The challenge now is figuring out when to do that vs. when to schedule my Part 2 PE/CE and Step 2 CK (should we also do CS?).

I recommend getting your PE out of the way as early as your school will allow you to. It's not that bad at all. I took COMLEX step 2 CE and step 2 CK in late June before my audition rotations. That worked out well. Sign up for those tests as early as possible, even right now if you can. Those slots fill up extremely fast. You don't need an ACGME neuro elective as a third year (though you can if you want to). You just a neuro elective in general 3rd year. 4th year ACGME sub-I letters carry more weight than 3rd year letters anyways. Oh and USMLE step 2 CS is completely unnecessary. Save your money for a good vacation before intern year starts

 

[W19]

Aside from the fact that Neuroscience was my favorite course in med school, I believe neurology is a great fit for me because it's more about thinking and less about doing. The hours are better than surgical specialties and the pay is better than primary care. The job market is as good as FM and psych, so that's a great incentive too.

Besides, I never understand why something like general surgery is competitive. The way I see it, you do well in preclinical years and ace your boards, now your reward is to specialize in something that allows you to be a doctor while working human hours. Also, I find it counterintuitive that fields like neurology/IM/Psych, which obviously require more thinking and knowledge of tiny details than fields like Ortho, would be more obtainable to below average students.

Not by much...

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Not by much...

True. I'm ok with anything above 200k, adjusted to inflation.

 

[67552931811]

True. I'm ok with anything above 200k, adjusted to inflation.

Dat debt doe..

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Dat debt doe..

I'm hoping that the loan forgiveness program would stick around. Otherwise, I'd refinance for a much lower rate and pay it off ASAP while living on an average American income.

 

[67552931811]

I'm hoping that the loan forgiveness program would stick around. Otherwise, I'd refinance for a much lower rate and pay it off ASAP while living on an average American income.

Same plan here, man. Similar boat as you if I recall correctly from previous convos :/.

Congrats on your step score, btw!

 

[postbacpremed87]

True. I'm ok with anything above 200k, adjusted to inflation.

I see 250k-350k neurohospitalist jobs all the time.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

I see 250k-350k neurohospitalist jobs all the time.

Yep, that's my plan. Fish for those jobs once and work my tail off, payoff the loans, then transition into a chill outpatient gig. The other plan is to take advantage of PSLF/RePAYE if we are lucky enough to have these programs available in the future. Hopefully, by the time we are done with school/residency/fellowship, we'll have a much more clear idea of the viability of the forgiveness programs.

 

[neurogeek105]

Adding an addendum to this thread since now I have COMLEX Level 2 CE/PE and USMLE Step 2 CK done.

COMLEX Level 2 CE: Low 680's
COMLEX Level 2 PE: Passed (first attempt)
USMLE Step 2 CK: Low 240's

Is there a cutoff for step 2 scores for neurology ACGME programs? Thanks for your help!

 

[grapefruit17]

Adding an addendum to this thread since now I have COMLEX Level 2 CE/PE and USMLE Step 2 CK done.

COMLEX Level 2 CE: Low 680's
COMLEX Level 2 PE: Passed (first attempt)
USMLE Step 2 CK: Low 240's

Is there a cutoff for step 2 scores for neurology ACGME programs? Thanks for your help!

prob no cutoff for your step 2 score. but you can check on Frieda. I doubt you'd get screened out anywhere based on your score, the only reason you'd get screened out at competitive places is maybe because you're a DO. Im sure some are and some aren't do friendly.