New Poll: How would people like to change pharmacy admissions criteria

[sfwusc]

The pharmacy school I applied to knew that I had applied to medical school. Why the heck does that matter? So you think that someone shouldn't be allow to apply to both? That is a good way to lower that amount of good GPA/PCAT score folks.

The PCAT is a joke.. I made a 97 on it without even studying for it. Now I did study my butt off for the MCAT I took 5 months earlier.

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[sfwusc]

See, I DON'T like that. I don't think schools need to know what PHARMACY schools you've applied to, etc - I think they should know what OTHER schools you're applied to. If I saw an application going:

"Applied to MWU COM, MWU COP" I would know that they were using pharmacy as a backup career. And I would not admit them accordingly.

Well you would be an idiot then. I turned down a medical school interview after being accepted to pharmacy school. So you would not chose the best for no reason other than you being stupid.

 

[waterloggedfrog]

I got a 100 on the pcat and I got totally wasted before I took it and only took five minutes on each section

 

[sfwusc]

I got a 100 on the pcat and I got totally wasted before I took it and only took five minutes on each section

Sorry if I came across as a jerk. Making the PCAT harder is needed to give it some credit. Which it doesn't seem to have at the moment as I am not the only one that thought it was to easy. It shouldn't change the scoring to much as it is done on a percentile (of first time takers...maybe make it based on all test takers).

Still I was replying to the guy/girl that thought I should be rejected just because I applied somewhere else. When you finish school should you only be allow to apply for one type of residency and no retail jobs? No...tell people they can't apply for different programs is stupid. I know a guy that picked a master program over admission to medical school.

Pharmacy has a lot of advantages over medicine. Work life balance is one big advantage. Salary is close to a physician practicing family medicine (around $150K in my area) when you consider pharmacy are making $60 an hour plus overtime pay. More time spent with the patient vs. being paid by the procedure.

Us trying to limit the app pool doesn't give the profession more credit. We get respect by doing our job, and helping to make sure the patient gets the best care.

The physician is at the top of the medical food chain. Yet, when you watch your kids baseball game/dance/whatever...remember that the physicians don't get that luxury often. You get that day to take your wife/husband...physicians don't seem to get that luxury often either. I will take being able to help while still being able to have time to spend with my family over being highly respected by people with no time for my family.

There is more to life than just your job.

 

[Thumper17]

Why does no one seem to understand the PCAT measures you COMPARED TO OTHER PEOPLE (as in no matter how hard the test is, if you are a stronger applicant you will get in the 90s anyway!) and is designed to cover BASIC SCIENCE learned in the first two years of undergrad.

If you get a BS in bio/chem/physics and take the PCAT, IT SHOULD BE CAKE. You got a 97, as well you should after studying for the MCAT (based on 4 years of study, figure that!) If they want to make the PCAT harder, they need to make a BS/BA a requirement, otherwise they are blatently misrepresenting what they are testing for.

 

[sfwusc]

My BS is in Business Administration, but you are right in the way it is scored.

 

[MrMeowphers]

Why does no one seem to understand the PCAT measures you COMPARED TO OTHER PEOPLE (as in no matter how hard the test is, if you are a stronger applicant you will get in the 90s anyway!) and is designed to cover BASIC SCIENCE learned in the first two years of undergrad.

If you get a BS in bio/chem/physics and take the PCAT, IT SHOULD BE CAKE. You got a 97, as well you should after studying for the MCAT (based on 4 years of study, figure that!) If they want to make the PCAT harder, they need to make a BS/BA a requirement, otherwise they are blatently misrepresenting what they are testing for.

I'm going to say I always admire the way you post with passion.

Bravo, Sir

 

[evilolive]

Why does no one seem to understand the PCAT measures you COMPARED TO OTHER PEOPLE (as in no matter how hard the test is, if you are a stronger applicant you will get in the 90s anyway!) and is designed to cover BASIC SCIENCE learned in the first two years of undergrad.

If you get a BS in bio/chem/physics and take the PCAT, IT SHOULD BE CAKE. You got a 97, as well you should after studying for the MCAT (based on 4 years of study, figure that!) If they want to make the PCAT harder, they need to make a BS/BA a requirement, otherwise they are blatently misrepresenting what they are testing for.

Because, there's a difference between curving everyone to create a standard distribution versus basic proficiencies and capacity for critical thinking. I argue that the basics assessed by the exam are really inadequate for our profession. I still remember what a joke the biology section was at times. Just because you're better than 99% of all people taking a simple test doesn't really mean all that much given proper context.

 

[atticus27]

Pharmacy is a mid-level health profession. It's overrated as it is. You should be able to start pharmacy school after high school with no prereqs.

 

[wishuponapharm]

Wow, I can't believe all the ego-maniacs on this board. The PCAT is a joke! Come on...everything is relative, if you think it is a joke than you are way too smart and need to get your PhD and go into research. Being a pharmacist is more than being smart, it has much more to do with customer relations while at the same time being able to display analytical skills.

 

[pinkdazing]

Pharmacy is a mid-level health profession. It's overrated as it is. You should be able to start pharmacy school after high school with no prereqs.

I couldn't agree with you more.

Pharmacy should be just a 4 year degree and be like the rest of the world, maybe even like the UK or Australia. Wasting your life in pointless courses you took in high school just to get the courses required to enter pharmacy is not right.

Also, I think an agreement with another country - to get a pharmacy license in America would be brilliant to have. Australia and the UK use to have an agreement but it ended in 2006.

 

[crazybob]

I couldn't agree with you more.

Pharmacy should be just a 4 year degree and be like the rest of the world, maybe even like the UK or Australia. Wasting your life in pointless courses you took in high school just to get the courses required to enter pharmacy is not right.

Also, I think an agreement with another country - to get a pharmacy license in America would be brilliant to have. Australia and the UK use to have an agreement but it ended in 2006.

Is that really the way you view college before pharmacy school?

If you were a pharmacist, but didn't know anything about why people appreciate art and music, why professors love to teach, what drives the motivation of researchers, why college students have such an interest in starting a new club with common interests and ideas, then you probably couldn't hold decent conversations with your patients because you wouldn't understand why they like what they do, because you will just view it as a waste of time and a waste of their lives.

 

[pinkdazing]

Is that really the way you view college before pharmacy school?

If you were a pharmacist, but didn't know anything about why people appreciate art and music, why professors love to teach, what drives the motivation of researchers, why college students have such an interest in starting a new club with common interests and ideas, then you probably couldn't hold decent conversations with your patients because you wouldn't understand why they like what they do, because you will just view it as a waste of time and a waste of their lives.

I definitely do not view college as a waste before studying pharmacy here. Sorry, if you misunderstood me. I'm an international student (somewhat as I'm half American and Irish) who already has a B.Sc in pharmacy from a recognised university in Ireland. I'm not eligible to sit for the foreign entrance exam, so I'm taking courses in America, I've taken already in high school (in the US) and bits when studying for my B.Sc. Sorry again for the misunderstanding again.

 

[jung1]

I couldn't agree with you more.

Pharmacy should be just a 4 year degree and be like the rest of the world, maybe even like the UK or Australia. Wasting your life in pointless courses you took in high school just to get the courses required to enter pharmacy is not right.

Also, I think an agreement with another country - to get a pharmacy license in America would be brilliant to have. Australia and the UK use to have an agreement but it ended in 2006.

Universities already have an attrition rate of 30%. I think I've heard the pass rate for some accelerated pharmacy programs are also lower. How does it help if people enter in pharmacy and never make it?

America heads research. Whereas the Europe used to make brilliant advances in drug discover, they turned socialists and enacted populist legislation like capping drug prices that totally killed R&D. Maybe pharmacists in the rest of the world can enter programs straight out of high school like it's some technical degree, the practice here is progressing because the rest of the world isn't bringing it.

Pharmacy is progressing...they're already making the PCAT harder, albeit slowly, and they've changed the degree awarded to a doctorate. Many pharmacy schools are slowly raising the bar too as pharmacists are expanding their territory into research and specialties in hospitals and clinics. There is a need to recruit better candidates to help elevate us to the next level but since most candidates only know about the retail side, programs are starting to expose and encourage their students into other pursuits by adding research project requirements, etc.

 

[confettiflyer]

Is that really the way you view college before pharmacy school?

If you were a pharmacist, but didn't know anything about why people appreciate art and music, why professors love to teach, what drives the motivation of researchers, why college students have such an interest in starting a new club with common interests and ideas, then you probably couldn't hold decent conversations with your patients because you wouldn't understand why they like what they do, because you will just view it as a waste of time and a waste of their lives.

my patients would be intubated and sedated, so no need to socialize there.

Besides, if you do interact with patients, you're probably in retail and probably shouldn't be wasting time interacting with patients unless you are mandated by law because you've got 4 phone calls on hold and dozens of scripts on the counter to verify.

 

[confettiflyer]

I definitely do not view college as a waste before studying pharmacy here. Sorry, if you misunderstood me. I'm an international student (somewhat as I'm half American and Irish) who already has a B.Sc in pharmacy from a recognised university in Ireland. I'm not eligible to sit for the foreign entrance exam, so I'm taking courses in America, I've taken already in high school (in the US) and bits when studying for my B.Sc. Sorry again for the misunderstanding again.

some people are impatient...i was only able to appreciate my 4 years at university some years AFTER i had graduated. i remember grumbling about taking random classes for my B.S....but some of my best experiences come from those breadth/random classes.

 

[twinspharm]

After viewing the polls it looks like many people would like to make it mandatory to have a batchelors degree to become a pharmacist. If pharmacy required a batchelors degree I think people would be discouraged, and the ones who got a batchelors degree may look to other professions. I might instead go to dental school or medical school if I had a batchelors degree. I don’t know if anyone else feels this way.
Does anybody think a four year degree would discourage people to enter pharmacy or look into other professions?

 

[busyizzy]

After viewing the polls it looks like many people would like to make it mandatory to have a batchelors degree to become a pharmacist. If pharmacy required a batchelors degree I think people would be discouraged, and the ones who got a batchelors degree may look to other professions. I might instead go to dental school or medical school if I had a batchelors degree. I don’t know if anyone else feels this way.
Does anybody think a four year degree would discourage people to enter pharmacy or look into other professions?

Nope. I have a bachelor's and I am applying. There are many schools where the majority of the people applying and accepted have a BS. Maybe it IS a good way to weed out people who are using pharm as an "easy way out." If you feel like getting a BS means you'd prefer dental or medical school, maybe you should reconsider pharmacy as a career.

 

[twinspharm]

busyizzy, that's not even what I said.

This is what I said. "I might instead go to dental school or medical school if I had a bachelors degree." I did not say I prefer dental or medical school.

I meant that I would look more into the whole health industry because a bachelors degree would give me that option. I would look at the other jobs out there, and might reconsider.

Prefer and maybe are two completely different words.

I understand you have a bachelors degree and are applying to pharmacy school. I was trying to ask if a mandatory bachelors degree would have an overall effect on pharmacy applicants as a whole.

Next time you tell someone to reconsider their career, who u have never even met, atleast restate their words accurately.

 

[Carboxide]

busyizzy, too bad that's not even what i said.

This is what i said, "I might instead go to dental school or medical school if I had a bachelors degree." I did not say I prefer dental or medical school.

I meant that I would look more into the whole health industry because a bachelors degree would give me that option. I would look at the other jobs out there, and might reconsider.

Prefer and maybe are two completely different words.

I understand you have a bachelors degree and are applying to pharmacy school. I was trying to ask if a mandatory bachelors degree would have an overall effect on pharmacy applicants as a whole.

Next time you tell someone to reconsider their career who u have never even met, atleast restate their words accuratly.

Reading your original post, I interpreted it the same way busyizzy did.

Regardless, I don't care if it makes people go to other professions. And I would HOPE that ANY person would consider what career they want to do before doing it instead of just saying "oh, it only takes two years so I'm doing THAT!"

It makes you look ignorant and like a money-seeker.

 

[twinspharm]

Reading your original post, I interpreted it the same way busyizzy did.

Regardless, I don't care if it makes people go to other professions. And I would HOPE that ANY person would consider what career they want to do before doing it instead of just saying "oh, it only takes two years so I'm doing THAT!"

It makes you look ignorant and like a money-seeker.

I kind of understand what you are saying but not completely. I chose pharmacy before I even knew it was only two or three years under grad. Its not like I chose it because it was an easy career by any means.

Money-seeker???? A pharmacist makes about the same money with benefits walking out of college than dentists do, which was the other career option I looked into.

 

[pharm6789]

This isn't what he was asking. I think he wanted opinions on pharmacy in its entirety, not how two people think specifically about the issue. I feel it would decrease the amount of pharmacy applicants, for the good or the bad.

You are the ignorant parties if you tell someone to change their career path, without even knowing them. You base your assumptions on the fact that they may look into other careers as options.

Who hasn't looked into other careers before?

He just meant if it would have an overall affect on the pharmacy applicants. Pharmacists are currently in a shortage. The greater the shortage, the less access people have to pharmacist for advice on their drugs. This shortage hurts the patients especially, and also the overworked pharmacists who are pulling 14 hour shifts.

 

[pharm6789]

I find it rediculas about the attitude some bloggers on this Website have. These bloggers read ones post, exaggerate what they say, and then insult them.

Calling someone ignorant and a money seeker is uncalled for without any real evidence.

These bloggers have no knowledge of this persons history and background, but feel they are experts on this person.

I wish people would just relax, this is a Website for information and advice to shared, not for people to demean others.

 

[kmoogs]

I find it rediculas about the attitude some bloggers on this Website have. These bloggers read ones post, exaggerate what they say, and then insult them.

Calling someone ignorant and a money seeker is uncalled for without any real evidence.

These bloggers have no knowledge of this persons history and background, but feel they are experts on this person.

I wish people would just relax, this is a Website for information and advice to shared, not for people to demean others.

It's an internet forum... you're bound to find meaningless drama wherever you go on the internet

 

[rxlea]

I guess I am an idealist. I would prefer for people to go into pharmacy because they genuinely enjoy patient care, the role of pharmacist, pharmacology, etc.

I hope that one day, a bachelor's is required. It will require that there are more mature, well-rounded candidates going into the profession. There is just something odd to me about a 24 year old doctor. I think people need to get some real world experience before heading into a profession in which you must relate to/interact with not only patients from various backgrounds, but colleagues and other professionals who are also from diverse backgrounds. Schools need to foster the traits that will help healthcare professionals succeed at their job but also teach them to do it with understanding, compassion, and an appreciation for diversity. I find it hard to believe that all the degree mills that are popping up do this.

 

[busyizzy]

busyizzy, that's not even what I said.

This is what I said. "I might instead go to dental school or medical school if I had a bachelors degree." I did not say I prefer dental or medical school.

I meant that I would look more into the whole health industry because a bachelors degree would give me that option. I would look at the other jobs out there, and might reconsider.

Prefer and maybe are two completely different words.

I understand you have a bachelors degree and are applying to pharmacy school. I was trying to ask if a mandatory bachelors degree would have an overall effect on pharmacy applicants as a whole.

Next time you tell someone to reconsider their career, who u have never even met, atleast restate their words accurately.

I wasn't directing my post to you; your post just got me thinking on people who WOULD think like that.

And might I say, you are being hypocritical. I said, "MAYBE YOU SHOULD RECONSIDER" in my original post. I was not TELLING anyone to change; I was saying "well, maybe." I did not TELL you, "you should leave the program." (where 'tell' is interpreted as 'an order' ... "the mother told the daughter to go to prom.' or something)

But anyway that's besides the point. Isn't that a GOOD thing if getting that BS means you might start to think about other careers? I didn't mean my comment snidely; I simply meant, if it means you'll start thinking about other stuff and find that it fits better - whether it be med school or nursing school or something completely out of health professions - then why is that such a bad thing? The college experience really changes and gives a certain depth to people, I feel, from my own experiences and seeing my friends' experiences. The applicant pool might decrease, but that doesn't necessairily have to be a negative thing. Maybe it will stop even more schools from opening.

That's all I meant. I didn't mean "you" as in the person I quoted. I was just referring to a certain subset in the applicant population that probably exists. Did not mean to start drama.

And one more point: why should people be discouraged because a BS is required? If all it takes is a BS to discourage someone from applying to a DOCTORATE program, I think pharmacy schools are better off without that person. I might get a lot of hate for saying this, but this IS a doctorate program. Can you get into a phD program without a BS? What if you say, well, what if someone is discouraged from applying to phD because it requires a BS! Well, maybe the point is you DON'T want these people to apply in the first place if they are so easily discouraged.

 

[wgt5]

The college experience really changes and gives a certain depth to people

I don't want to start anything, but in my opinion the college experience is overrated. Yes, it makes people more mature and may give them a different out look on life after they get some real world experience.

There are certain people at the age of 20, applying to Pharm School, who are more mature than most adults.

I'm not going to get into specifics, but the college experience in my opinion does as much harm as good.

90% of people with a BS would say they think a BS should be required. 90% of people with out a BS would say a BS should not be required.

 

[twinspharm]

My bad,

Bussyizzy, u seem like a really knowledgeable and helpful person.

 

[crazybob]

I don't want to start anything, but in my opinion the college experience is overrated. Yes, it makes people more mature and may give them a different out look on life after they get some real world experience.

There are certain people at the age of 20, applying to Pharm School, who are more mature than most adults.

I’m not going to get into specifics, but the college experience in my opinion does as much harm as good.

90% of people with a BS would say they think a BS should be required. 90% of people with out a BS would say a BS should not be required.

Having a bachelors degree sets a certain standard with the number of courses taken and the amount of college level coursework that has been completed. It also shows that a person can stick to a plan in the curriculum, and meet all of the requirements to finish that plan and to graduate on time.

This debate about whether or not a BS should be required can go on and on, and it is best left up to the applicant to decide when it is time to apply to pharmacy school.

 

[wgt5]

This debate about whether or not a BS should be required can go on and on, and it is best left up to the applicant to decide when it is time to apply to pharmacy school.

Definitely, a BS will give you the edge for the reasons you listed.

 

[Passion4Sci]

I don't think the argument shouldn't be about whether a BS/BA can give one an advantage, but rather, if it should be required.

 

[Shimmery]

Not arguing towards your opinion, but just a quick question....

If someone was truly interested in the pharmacy profession, why would they want to spend 4 years in obtaining a BS when they are not even interested in that particular field?

 

[Thumper17]

I'm going to say I always admire the way you post with passion.

Bravo, Sir

Haha thank you, I get fired up sometimes! Hopefully that adcoms will see that in my writing too

 

[kmoogs]

I don't think the argument shouldn't be about whether a BS/BA can give one an advantage, but rather, if it should be required.

Not arguing towards your opinion, but just a quick question....

If someone was truly interested in the pharmacy profession, why would they want to spend 4 years in obtaining a BS when they are not even interested in that particular field?

If it was a requirement for pharmacy school and they were truly interested in pharmacy ... then it's only logical to me that they'd WANT to put the effort into completing the BS. I don't quite get what you're trying to say Shimmery. What's so bad about finishing off a BS if required? Just choose a related B.S. degree If someone was truly interested in the pharmacy profession and if the requirement stated PhD only ... the truly motivated would just go get their PhDs before going into Pharm school lol.

 

[Shimmery]

If required, I would feel that you would be wasting those 4 years anyways, even if it's for pharmacy, is your BS going to give you more knowledge into pharmacy? Not really.

Isn't the weed out courses enough already?

I'm not saying that the BS is useless, but in pharmacy, I don't see how it could HELP you in attaining a Pharm D.

 

[UES Girl]

If required, I would feel that you would be wasting those 4 years anyways, even if it's for pharmacy, is your BS going to give you more knowledge into pharmacy? Not really.

Isn't the weed out courses enough already?

I'm not saying that the BS is useless, but in pharmacy, I don't see how it could HELP you in attaining a Pharm D.

Have you earned a BS degree in one of the sciences ?

Of course it helps you, the upper division coursework in the chemistry/biochemistry major for example you take is far more challenging than the beginning pre-req courses you take during the first two years. It helps you tremendously in pharmacy because some of the courses you take during your first couple years will be the exact courses you took during your last undergrad years.


You can even test out of some courses you took at advanced or graduate levels at my school, so you don't have to take them again.


Lastly, you don't think the notion of earning a doctorate degree if you didn't even earn a bachelors a little ridiculous ?

 

[Shimmery]

Have you earned a BS degree in one of the sciences ?

Nope

I'll take your word for it, though this would only apply to the science portion of getting a BS degree, though how about a general BS degree, like, for example, history?

My REAL question is, how would a non science BS degree be able to help you in pharmacy school?

As for earning a doctorate, honestly, it's still four years, and before this doctorate came out it was a BS wasn't it? Didn't they only change the name because of diploma inflation?

I don't know all the facts, obviously, but I'm just curious how the 0 + 6 pharmacy schools are compared to the people with a BS degree that are in pharmacy school.

Thanks for the answers so far, I'm just curious about these types of things.

 

[weetzie00]

I'll take your word for it, though this would only apply to the science portion of getting a BS degree, though how about a general BS degree, like, for example, history?

I'm sure the far majority of pre-pharmacy applicants that have a BA/BS degree had majors in a science field. Logically, those interested in pharmacy are interested in science and therefore major in it... Yeah, there are those who majored in a non-science field, but they are much less common.

 

[bacillus1]

Again, having a BS before going to pharmacy school is discriminatory for the 0-6 programs. I never got a BS and am doing just fine in pharmacology, therapeutics, etc...If a small percentage cannot handle it, that's their problem, you should not force everyone to take more time (and money) to graduate becase some people cannot keep up.

And the pharmacists that graduated from 0-6 programs are not worse pharmacists than ones that graduated from traditional programs. And the pharmacists that graduated without a BS are usually as proficient in their profession as ones that got a BS. If someone wants to do a BS, fine, but if not, they should not have to waste 2 years of time and money.

 

[bacillus1]

Again, having a BS before going to pharmacy school is discriminatory for the 0-6 programs. I never got a BS and am doing just fine in pharmacology, therapeutics, etc...If a small percentage cannot handle it, that's their problem, you should not force everyone to take more time (and money) to graduate becase some people cannot keep up. Sure things may be harder to learn, but people do learn in the end.

And the pharmacists that graduated from 0-6 programs are not worse pharmacists than ones that graduated from traditional programs. And the pharmacists that graduated without a BS are usually as proficient in their profession as ones that got a BS. If someone wants to do a BS, fine, but if not, they should not have to waste 2 years of time and money.

 

[confettiflyer]

If required, I would feel that you would be wasting those 4 years anyways, even if it's for pharmacy, is your BS going to give you more knowledge into pharmacy? Not really.

Isn't the weed out courses enough already?

I'm not saying that the BS is useless, but in pharmacy, I don't see how it could HELP you in attaining a Pharm D.

there's a HUGE difference in academic performance and maturity between the MS/MA/MPH/BS/BA holders in my class vs. people who just did the community college route or didn't go to a rigorous undergrad.

It's like night and day.

 

[confettiflyer]

Again, having a BS before going to pharmacy school is discriminatory for the 0-6 programs. I never got a BS and am doing just fine in pharmacology, therapeutics, etc...If a small percentage cannot handle it, that's their problem, you should not force everyone to take more time (and money) to graduate becase some people cannot keep up. Sure things may be harder to learn, but people do learn in the end.

And the pharmacists that graduated from 0-6 programs are not worse pharmacists than ones that graduated from traditional programs. And the pharmacists that graduated without a BS are usually as proficient in their profession as ones that got a BS. If someone wants to do a BS, fine, but if not, they should not have to waste 2 years of time and money.

well difference is you get 2 years of targeted science geared toward the last 4 professional years of the program. You can't get that kind of targeted curriculum outside of an 0-6 program.

since we're talking about requirements here...you can always be like UCSF. At that school, if you enter the med school without a BS/BA degree, you are awarded one at the time you get your MD (can't find the link, i'll look later). USP should do the same...but it would be a technicality and more paperwork for admin to do.