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jsaul

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So a new spine surgeon starting his practice came to visit me in my office today. he asked that I refer him patients for surgery. He told me does does his own lumbar injections but does not do cerivcal due "to the risk" He states he will refer me me some cerivcal injections and will refer me "all patients needing pain meds after I fuse them"

I said thank you for your kind offer sir.:eek::eek: I really need to see more patients for chronic narcotics after fusion. :scared::scared:

Then he asked me if I was being sarcasitc and i said yes. I told him I am not going to continue indefinately narcotic meds on patients you fuse. He then replied "but you are pain management, you went to school for that". He then did not like "the attitude I was giving him" when he came to me today with "a nice offer to do business together" He then left and mumbled something about how he "fixes the back with fusion" after I asked him if he would ever get a fusion on his back for back pain.

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So a new spine surgeon starting his practice came to visit me in my office today. he asked that I refer him patients for surgery. He told me does does his own lumbar injections but does not do cerivcal due "to the risk" He states he will refer me me some cerivcal injections and will refer me "all patients needing pain meds after I fuse them"

I said thank you for your kind offer sir.:eek::eek: I really need to see more patients for chronic narcotics after fusion. :scared::scared:

Then he asked me if I was being sarcasitc and i said yes. I told him I am not going to continue indefinately narcotic meds on patients you fuse. He then replied "but you are pain management, you went to school for that". He then did not like "the attitude I was giving him" when he came to me today with "a nice offer to do business together" He then left and mumbled something about how he "fixes the back with fusion" after I asked him if he would ever get a fusion on his back for back pain.

What an ass. Completely clueless and no insight into the fact that his presentation was "I'm take the cream and leave you the curds". F him. by F I mean funny, mods. At least now you know any pt from him is a dump and to block it
 
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Good for you!!! tell that that ass to take a hike. How clueless..."fixes the back"

shut up already...

So a new spine surgeon starting his practice came to visit me in my office today. he asked that I refer him patients for surgery. He told me does does his own lumbar injections but does not do cerivcal due "to the risk" He states he will refer me me some cerivcal injections and will refer me "all patients needing pain meds after I fuse them"

I said thank you for your kind offer sir.:eek::eek: I really need to see more patients for chronic narcotics after fusion. :scared::scared:

Then he asked me if I was being sarcasitc and i said yes. I told him I am not going to continue indefinately narcotic meds on patients you fuse. He then replied "but you are pain management, you went to school for that". He then did not like "the attitude I was giving him" when he came to me today with "a nice offer to do business together" He then left and mumbled something about how he "fixes the back with fusion" after I asked him if he would ever get a fusion on his back for back pain.
 
Best post I read all day!!!! I'd love for him to come to my office.
 
He then left and mumbled something about how he "fixes the back with fusion" after I asked him if he would ever get a fusion on his back for back pain.

If he "fixes" the back, why do they still need chronic narcotics. Talk about having your head up your ass. This guy deserves an award.
 
One of us could put a couple kids through college on those "fixed" backs. What a tool box.
 
It begs the question, why would anyone need chronic pain meds after his fusion?
 
"I do my own lumbar epidurals" = I know how to make sure Caudal ESI's fail.
"I don't do cervicals" = I have not yet mastered how to make sure that a cervical ESI fails without paralyzing the patient.
 
at first, this annoyed me. Now, i LOVE THIS GUY, he is my hero. Because he has huge balls and does not give a FU CK. Life must be AWESOME in this guys head, because, in mine, it can suck sometimes with all the worrying about doing the right thing and trying not to hurt patients...
 
wow... nice... sounds like a real jerk...
 
wow... nice... sounds like a real jerk...

the thing is where I practice most of the spine surgeons are just like him in attitude and practice. I just saw a patient from another young spine surgeon. He just finished fusing L1-S1. Now sent me for a discogram of t11-12 and T12-L1. to see if he needs to fuse one more level because this 38 year old is still having severe axial back pain after 2 surgeries from him
 
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"I do my own lumbar epidurals" = I know how to make sure Caudal ESI's fail.
"I don't do cervicals" = I have not yet mastered how to make sure that a cervical ESI fails without paralyzing the patient.

haha so true.. so sad, but true.
caudal esi with no catheters for all lumbar problems. I have seen this first hand in the OR by several ortho spine surgeons.
 
Is this guy ortho spine? Seems like neurosurgeons are a more appropriate and don't attempt to cut everyone.
 
I'd point to the Anes Pain guy in NJ who started fusing people at his own ASC. Tell him you're going to start fusing people as a side business. For when the ESI doesn't work.
 
I posted this before. I did a MAC for an Ortho spine for caudal. 78 yoF T11 recent compression fx, all pain was low thoracic non radiating. Lumbar spine MRI had some bad discs. Caudal with lido 1% 19 ml and Dexamethasone 10 mg. his plan was L3-S1 fusion if the caudal didnt work.

I convinced the fellow to try to send her to the pain clinic for fracture treatment before doing the fusion. Never saw the lady again though.
 
i'd point to the anes pain guy in nj who started fusing people at his own asc. Tell him you're going to start fusing people as a side business. For when the esi doesn't work.

lol
 
you guys are too hard on this guy. I WANT TO BE HIM... its like if Michael Scott was an orthopedic spine surgeon.
 
It begs the question, why would anyone need chronic pain meds after his fusion?

I would guess most patients don't go off opioids completely after a fusion. A 50-75% decrease in opioids would be a successful surgery IMO.
 
I would guess most patients don't go off opioids completely after a fusion. A 50-75% decrease in opioids would be a successful surgery IMO.

i think i see at least 50-75 percent of the people increase opioids after fusion
 
i think i see at least 50-75 percent of the people increase opioids after fusion

i think the fusion is a great justification for life long opioids in these patients. "doc i need that norco, i had rods and screws put in my back. I have 7 bad discs... He said it was the worst he has ever seen"
 
I would guess most patients don't go off opioids completely after a fusion. A 50-75% decrease in opioids would be a successful surgery IMO.

Fritzell showed a 30% drop in NRS (Back Pain) for the surgical cohort. He did not report pre and post-op opioid use. However, well all know that the correlation between changes in NRS and MED is seldom one to one.

The WA State SCOAP is looking at pre-and post-op MED in relation to lumbar fusion outcome. There is little question in my mind that a high pre-op MED will be a harbinger of a poor functional outcome and high post-op MED. The question becomes: if there is no measurable change between pre & post op function, opioid use, RTW, ODI, etc, should the procedure be funded at all.

Spine (Phila Pa 1976). 2007 Sep 1;32(19):2127-32.

Relationship between early opioid prescribing for acute occupational low back pain and disability duration, medical costs, subsequent surgery and late opioid use.

Webster BS, Verma SK, Gatchel RJ.


Source

Liberty Mutual Research Institute for Safety, Center for Disability Research, Hopkinton, MA 01748, USA. [email protected]


Abstract


STUDY DESIGN:

Retrospective cohort study of workers' compensation (WC) claims with acute disabling low back pain (LBP).

OBJECTIVE:

To examine the association between early opioid use for acute LBP and outcomes: disability duration, medical costs, "late opioid" use (> or = 5 prescriptions from 30 to 730 days), and surgery in a 2-year period following LBP onset.

SUMMARY OF BACKGROUND DATA:

Opioid analgesics have become more accepted for acute pain management. However, treatment guidelines recommend limited opioid use for acute LBP management. Little is known about the long-term impact on outcomes of opioid use for acute LBP.

METHODS:

The sample consisted of 8443 claimants from a large WC database with new-onset, disabling LBP that occurred between January 1, 2002 and December 31, 2003. Based on morphine equivalent amount (MEA) in milligrams received in the first 15 days ("early opioids"), claimants were divided into 5 groups (0, 1-140, 141-225, 226-450, 450+). The associations between early opioids and outcomes were evaluated using multivariate linear and logistic regression models. Covariates included age, gender, job tenure, and low back injury severity. Injury severity was classified using ICD-9 codes.

RESULTS:

Twenty-one percent of claimants received at least 1 early opioid prescription. After controlling for the covariates, mean disability duration, mean medical costs, and risk of surgery and late opioid use increased monotonically with increasing MEA. Those who received more than 450 mg MEA were, on average, disabled 69 days longer than those who received no early opioids (95% confidence interval [CI], 49.2-88.9). Compared with the lowest MEA group (0 mg opioid), the risk for surgery was 3 times greater (95% CI, 2.4-4.0) and the risk of receiving late opioids was 6 times greater (95% CI, 4.9-7.7) in the highest MEA group. Low back injury severity was a strong predictor of all the outcomes.

CONCLUSION:

Given the negative association between receipt of early opioids for acute LBP and outcomes, it is suggested that the use of opioids for the management of acute LBP may be counterproductive to recovery.
 
in my state, per work comp med advisory board, once a patient has had a lumbar fusion for a work related injury the likelihood of returning to work is 0%.
 
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