"new study says the female majority may be keeping men out of veterinary school"

[JSpitz]

DVM360 article
title of thread is from DVM360's front page description of the article

some quotes:
"On college visits, men who see a classroom full of women may be intimidated to apply—a theory backed by statistics collected for the study."

"The explanation of reduced barriers to admission for women has merit, although it fails to explain why other professions that have also eliminated that bias have not feminized or not at the same rate," Lincoln argues. "The results of this study demonstrate only one consistent difference between male and female application patterns—men's strong negative response to women's increasing enrollment."

"Feminization of the veterinary profession has been fueled more by lower rates of college graduation among men and their aversion to female students than women being attracted to the field, Lincoln says. Similar trends have been noted in fields now dominated by women, like pharmacy, she adds. The trend now may also be extending to human medicine, with female applicants to American medical schools surpassing those of men for the first time in 2003. Wage stagnation over the last two decades has been linked as a factor in that case, with men more often choosing the more lucrative fields of business or law over medicine. Men also tend to revise their career plans based on decline in occupational prestige, employment security and promotional prospects, Lincoln adds."

The study:
Lincoln, Anne E. 2010. "The Shifting Supply of Women and Men to Occupations: Feminization in Veterinary Education." Social Forces

Abstract
A confining limitation for the occupational sex segregation literature has been the inability to determine how many persons of one sex would have entered an occupation had the other sex not successfully entered instead. Using panel data from all American colleges of veterinary medicine (1976-1995), a fixed-effects model with lagged independent variables finds support for the concurrent effects of many hypothesized feminization mechanisms. Declining relative earnings and policies aimed at increasing production of graduates affect applications from men and women similarly, but feminization is driven by the decline in men's college graduation and their avoidance of fields dominated by women. The findings demonstrate the relative contributions and interdependence of supply and demand to occupational sex composition and the job search process more broadly.

PI's background: CV

From "Invited Speaking and Lectures" in CV:
2011 148th Annual American Veterinary Medical Association Meeting. St. Louis, MO. July. Honorarium

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[TomTheK9Fixr]

DVM360 article title of thread is from website front page's description of the article.

some quotes:
"On college visits, men who see a classroom full of women may be intimidated to apply—a theory backed by statistics collected for the study."

"The explanation of reduced barriers to admission for women has merit, although it fails to explain why other professions that have also eliminated that bias have not feminized or not at the same rate," Lincoln argues. "The results of this study demonstrate only one consistent difference between male and female application patterns—men's strong negative response to women's increasing enrollment."

2nd to last paragraph (which, as i learned in high school journalism, supposedly means "least exciting to audience" even if it is the most informative and balanced paragraph):
"Feminization of the veterinary profession has been fueled more by lower rates of college graduation among men and their aversion to female students than women being attracted to the field, Lincoln says. Similar trends have been noted in fields now dominated by women, like pharmacy, she adds. The trend now may also be extending to human medicine, with female applicants to American medical schools surpassing those of men for the first time in 2003. Wage stagnation over the last two decades has been linked as a factor in that case, with men more often choosing the more lucrative fields of business or law over medicine. Men also tend to revise their career plans based on decline in occupational prestige, employment security and promotional prospects, Lincoln adds."

i actually have a lot of colorful things to say about the article and how it presented the study's findings, but i shall refrain due to the public nature of this forum. i will say that the article and article description on the front page induces unpleasant emotions.

I call BS on this article. I am a duder and that has nothing to do with my perception of the problem. IMO, it comes down to the fact that women have innate desire to care for others, including animals, more so than men do. Now this is my opinion but I think it carries more weight than this BS.

 

[168135]

I know more male vets than female vets 🙄

 

[awaring1]

I call BS on this article. I am a duder and that has nothing to do with my perception of the problem. IMO, it comes down to the fact that women have innate desire to care for others, including animals, more so than men do. Now this is my opinion but I think it carries more weight than this BS.

👍

 

[nuevaburra]

I call BS on this article. I am a duder and that has nothing to do with my perception of the problem. IMO, it comes down to the fact that women have innate desire to care for others, including animals, more so than men do. Now this is my opinion but I think it carries more weight than this BS.

Well, wouldn't the fact that you are a dude and going to vet school mean that you are one of exceptions? Not that your perception is wrong or worthless, but it is kind of irrelevant if, as the article suggests, the "problem" is men being kept away rather than women being drawn in. Other dudes probably have different perceptions.

Not even going to touch on the "innate desire to care for others" because I have no desire to relive women's studies 101 on a message board 🙂

 

[168135]

Not even going to touch on the "innate desire to care for others" because I have no desire to relive women's studies 101 on a message board 🙂

Because if they had an "innate desire", they'd be rescuing cutsy kitties and precious puppies instead of getting covered in blood, pee and hair. Anybody who is entering vet med because of this "innate desire" needs to rethink their career path.

 

[TomTheK9Fixr]

Well, wouldn't the fact that you are a dude and going to vet school mean that you are one of exceptions? Not that your perception is wrong or worthless, but it is kind of irrelevant if, as the article suggests, the "problem" is men being kept away rather than women being drawn in. Other dudes probably have different perceptions.

Not even going to touch on the "innate desire to care for others" because I have no desire to relive women's studies 101 on a message board 🙂

I don't consider myself an exception, rather in the minority of what most dudes do for a living. I think that more women want to pursue a career in which they care for animals, to the extent that they're willing to go to school for 8 years, more than men do. That's all. I think that's as simple as I can put it.

 

[nuevaburra]

I don't consider myself an exception, rather in the minority of what most dudes do for a living. I think that more women want to pursue a career in which they care for animals, to the extent that they're willing to go to school for 8 years, more than men do. That's all. I think that's as simple as I can put it.

Possible, for sure. But me? I want to cut bits off of dead animals and stick them in formalin 😉

 

[Robdude]

I don't think anyone who has any real desire or drive to become an ANYTHING is going to let the gender of their classmates bother them.

Maybe there are some kids who might have considered taking some animal-type classes as an undergrad who might have later decided animals were pretty cool and maybe decided to apply to vet school - who possibly didn't, because of the gender of their classmates. As a guy, I can't imagine NOT taking a class because it was filled with girls. That'd be a perk.

If I had to pick anything to explain why so few guys become vets, I'd look at the cost of vet school (but in time, effort, and actual dollars) verse the expected salary. Most guys I talk to, that's a deal breaker. Most girls I talk to, salary is an afterthought.

 

[TomTheK9Fixr]

Not even going to touch on the "innate desire to care for others" because I have no desire to relive women's studies 101 on a message board 🙂

Didn't take that class so uh, can't really comment on that.

Because if they had an "innate desire", they'd be rescuing cutsy kitties and precious puppies instead of getting covered in blood, pee and hair. Anybody who is entering vet med because of this "innate desire" needs to rethink their career path.

Huh? I mean, as an ER tech for the past 8 years, that's what this job is relaly about lol! Lots of blood, pus, and excrement.

 

[nuevaburra]

Didn't take that class so uh, can't really comment on that.

WS 101 involved, in addition to some very useful discussion, unfortunately lots of useless circular arguments about innate vs social i.e. nature vs nurture. As a scientist I don't think any of that is going to be answered by debate. Especially not on the internet

But I do agree that the article is total or near-total BS.

"Feminization of the veterinary profession has been fueled more by lower rates of college graduation among men..." yes, that is definitely plausible, more and better qualified female graduates will tend to increase the number of female applicants and vice versa for males.

"...and their aversion to female students..." Huh what? Girls in this class? Girls have cooties! Ewww! Yeah that argument makes NO sense to me.

 

[LetItSnow]

"The results of this study demonstrate only one consistent difference between male and female application patterns—men's strong negative response to women's increasing enrollment."

Dammit, they finally figured it out. All these years I've been ranting about those darn women getting their hooks in the door of vet school, screwing it for us Y chromosomes..... y'all can't imagine the emotional hurdles I had to overcome to force myself to apply in the face of the estrogen overload I knew I'd encounter.

Er. Actually, I'm with Tom on this one in calling BS. The ratio of men/women never once factored into my decision to become a vet. I do wish there were more guys there, but that's just because women can't do fart jokes right.

 

[JSpitz]

.

 

[JulesMichy]

I call BS on this article. I am a duder and that has nothing to do with my perception of the problem. IMO, it comes down to the fact that women have innate desire to care for others, including animals, more so than men do. Now this is my opinion but I think it carries more weight than this BS.

Because your anecdote trumps data? I'm with nuevaburra on the, "not even going there" on the innate genetic nurturer role issue.

C'mon guys, we've seen this for years and there's plenty of data to back it up with the gender disparity reversed in engineering and computer science programs. The more one gender "takes over" a major, the less appealing it is for members of the opposite gender. That doesn't mean there won't be outliers, of course, but saying, "I know X number of male vet students" doesn't disprove a study. The study might very well be BS, but I haven't seen anyone going after their statistical analysis or study design, just offering subjective opinion and anecdotes. We are supposed to be scientists, right? If you find flaws in their conclusions, let it be for a legitimate reason.

 

[cowdocsoon]

That's very true Jules. The idea of causality can be a confusing one. Just because a few have said that doesn't mean the cause is what they say it is. If I conclude that fire trucks are always around when there is a fire, therefore the cause of fires is the firetruck. Just because I said it, it must be true, right? Now, of course that doesn't make sense, but that is what it seems they are saying here.

 

[JSpitz]

.

 

[TomTheK9Fixr]

Because your anecdote trumps data? I'm with nuevaburra on the, "not even going there" on the innate genetic nurturer role issue.

C'mon guys, we've seen this for years and there's plenty of data to back it up with the gender disparity reversed in engineering and computer science programs. The more one gender "takes over" a major, the less appealing it is for members of the opposite gender. That doesn't mean there won't be outliers, of course, but saying, "I know X number of male vet students" doesn't disprove a study. The study might very well be BS, but I haven't seen anyone going after their statistical analysis or study design, just offering subjective opinion and anecdotes. We are supposed to be scientists, right? If you find flaws in their conclusions, let it be for a legitimate reason.

That's very true Jules. The idea of causality can be a confusing one. Just because a few have said that doesn't mean the cause is what they say it is. If I conclude that fire trucks are always around when there is a fire, therefore the cause of fires is the firetruck. Just because I said it, it must be true, right? Now, of course that doesn't make sense, but that is what it seems they are saying here.

Hence, my blurb "now this is just my opinion". I am sort of a scientist too, that doesn't mean I can't offer my opinion. Is the gender shift really a big deal? I don't think so. It is what it is. In the adcomms eyes, perhaps it is a problem... Carry on

 

[awaring1]

Has anyone on SDN ever personally known a male who wanted to go into the field but did not because their gender was the minority?

Also, it has been a trend among all educational institutes that males are becoming the minority. I believe most schools have a 60/40 female/male.

It is hard for myself (and I bet a lot of others) to believe that someone can be persuaded not to enter a field because of gender because we personally don't feel that way. Also, it is very possible that there are a lot of guys who want to be vets but don't think their buddies would find it masculine and just never voice it.


(btw I have no authority to really respond to this because I didn't actually read the article. I am studying now but I swear I will read it later.)

 

[that redhead]

It's probably a good thing that the weak ones get scared away by a classroom full of girls. They'd probably explode or run away screaming by the time the first set of midterms rolled around! (Not that the brave ones won't, but maybe they'd at least make it to winter break.. )

 

[KaibabVet]

I call BS on this article. I am a duder and that has nothing to do with my perception of the problem. IMO, it comes down to the fact that women have innate desire to care for others, including animals, more so than men do. Now this is my opinion but I think it carries more weight than this BS.

Hm... so "innate" implies that this is a biologically driven impulse. I'm not sure I agree with that. Society does influence women to embrace caregiver roles, but society also labels math and science subjects as primarily male domains. Anyway, even if women are innate caregivers, this doesn't explain why there are so few male applicants to vet school (vs medical, dental, etc).

 

[Zany Tiger]

Being a gentleman myself I find it a bit difficult to believe that males are intimidated by a strong female population within a particular medical based program. I would imagine its more of a post degree income based decision. In all honesty I would feel more intimidated in a classroom full of guys, I feel I would have to prove that I had some intelligence. I'm so not a big fan of competition. At least In a classroom full of females I just know they are smarter. 🙂

 

[HopefulAg]

and their aversion to female students than women being attracted to the field

I don't know the answer but I'm pretty sure that's not it, unless their sample pool...had certain characteristics in common.

 

[AngSchmange]

Being a gentleman myself I find it a bit difficult to believe that males are intimidated by a strong female population within a particular medical based program. I would imagine its more of a post degree income based decision. In all honesty I would feel more intimidated in a classroom full of guys, I feel I would have to prove that I had some intelligence. I'm so not a big fan of competition. At least In a classroom full of females I just know they are smarter. 🙂

Hehe you're already smarter than most males for admitting this 😉 Smart man right here! 😀

 

[Ricegrad]

Because your anecdote trumps data? I'm with nuevaburra on the, "not even going there" on the innate genetic nurturer role issue.

C'mon guys, we've seen this for years and there's plenty of data to back it up with the gender disparity reversed in engineering and computer science programs. The more one gender "takes over" a major, the less appealing it is for members of the opposite gender. That doesn't mean there won't be outliers, of course, but saying, "I know X number of male vet students" doesn't disprove a study. The study might very well be BS, but I haven't seen anyone going after their statistical analysis or study design, just offering subjective opinion and anecdotes. We are supposed to be scientists, right? If you find flaws in their conclusions, let it be for a legitimate reason.

👍 Totally agree. I think it's important to note that men aren't necessarily consciously avoiding vet medicine just because it's becoming largely feminized. A lot of factors come into play, like gender roles and stereotypes, the availability of mentors, etc. There's a bunch of research that shows that people are more likely to enter fields were they see others like them. If boys don't see male vets, they are less likely to pursue a career in veterinary medicine. If anybody is interested in topics like this, type in "occupational segregation" in google scholar. Fascinating stuff.

Side note: I'm a sociology major, and I'm actually working on a research project that is studying the gender differences between different science fields like biology and physics. Dr. Lincoln is a co-PI of the study, although I don't work with her.

 

[nuevaburra]

So I actually read the study, and what it states/finds is that when women make up 24-52% of a profession men avoid it, but once women make up 64% of the profession they stop avoiding it.

So the article title is totally misleading.

 

[Dsmoody23]

Do we have some current male students who can add to this?

As a male myself, I'm vaguely curious how the classroom dynamic plays out with so many women.

Not that I'm having a 'negative response' to the idea, but it is certainly going to be a different vibe than a 51/49 class makeup.

 

[nyanko]

My innate desire to care for others is broken. 😱

 

[libster06]

👍 Totally agree. I think it's important to note that men aren't necessarily consciously avoiding vet medicine just because it's becoming largely feminized. A lot of factors come into play, like gender roles and stereotypes, the availability of mentors, etc. There's a bunch of research that shows that people are more likely to enter fields were they see others like them. If boys don't see male vets, they are less likely to pursue a career in veterinary medicine. If anybody is interested in topics like this, type in "occupational segregation" in google scholar. Fascinating stuff.

I think I agree with this point... I think that the correlation to who attends vet school kind of depends on the influence they have had from those around them. At least, for the decision making process of going into a career geared towards attending vet school.

Not always necessarily though, because I really couldn't tell you why or when I decided I wanted to be a veterinarian, but it was somewhere around the age of about 4. There was no influence in my life from my parents or teachers and I didn't even own a pet until I was 7 or 8, so I really was just born with this passion... so perhaps there are men who have the dream at a younger age, and somewhere along the way wherever their path takes them and the influences they have along the way, they either go with it or do something else.

 

[Coquette22]

My innate desire to care for others is broken. 😱

I was offered an innate desire to care for others, or I could have what was behind Curtain 3. I took the curtain. Turned out to be a new car. Best decision ever.

 

[StartingoverVet]

Do we have some current male students who can add to this?

As a male myself, I'm vaguely curious how the classroom dynamic plays out with so many women.

Not that I'm having a 'negative response' to the idea, but it is certainly going to be a different vibe than a 51/49 class makeup.

Honestly I barely notice most of the time in class, lab, etc. If I was single, I would notice, but mostly in a good way. The only time I remember even vaguely thinking about it was in an elective class of 20 students where I was the only guy. Thought it was pretty cool!

I have read so many of these flawed studies, just can't bother to care anymore. I think we had a long discussion on this a few months ago.

 

[libster06]

Honestly I barely notice most of the time in class, lab, etc. If I was single, I would notice, but mostly in a good way. The only time I remember even vaguely thinking about it was in an elective class of 20 students where I was the only guy. Thought it was pretty cool!

I have read so many of these flawed studies, just can't bother to care anymore. I think we had a long discussion on this a few months ago.

I also can't help but feel like these "studies" are contributing more to keeping men out of vet school than the actual discrepancy of gender ratio in classes itself... they publish these reports, and all it does is seemingly serve to show male applicants (who are gullible enough to really believe them) that there is a substantial noticeable feeling that comes with "womens increasing enrollment". As you said, its not noticeable, and I don't see why this even still matters anymore.

 

[Dsmoody23]

I also can't help but feel like these "studies" are contributing more to keeping men out of vet school than the actual discrepancy of gender ratio in classes itself... they publish these reports, and all it does is seemingly serve to show male applicants (who are gullible enough to really believe them) that there is a substantial noticeable feeling that comes with "womens increasing enrollment". As you said, its not noticeable, and I don't see why this even still matters anymore.

That's a fair point.

This was the first time I had ever even considered it as a possible issue.

 

[libster06]

That's a fair point.

This was the first time I had ever even considered it as a possible issue.

For sure. I honestly haven't given it much thought either, but just got to thinking about it and figured that those reports probably aren't doing the whole "predicament" (if that's what you would call it?) any favors.

 

[Dsmoody23]

For sure. I honestly haven't given it much thought either, but just got to thinking about it and figured that those reports probably aren't doing the whole "predicament" (if that's what you would call it?) any favors.

Now I'm petrified that I'll be cornered in a lecture hall, dressed in jean leggings and forced to sing 'I'm a Pretty Princess" on the first day of classes.

 

[HopefulAg]

Do we have some current male students who can add to this?

As a male myself, I'm vaguely curious how the classroom dynamic plays out with so many women.

I don't really keep up with drama, but I'm not really sure our class has that much in the first place. For the most part it just seems like a normal class to me. I haven't really noticed any changes in dynamics or anything. Some people are nice, some can be *******s, some are melodramatic, some are social butterflies, and so on. Just seems like a regular cross-section of humanity to me. Maybe an overall more intelligent cross-section, but we have the full array of personality types I think.

Now I'm petrified that I'll be cornered in a lecture hall, dressed in jean leggings and forced to sing 'I'm a Pretty Princess" on the first day of classes.

Naw, that's only during orientation.

 

[avekelsea]

If I were a [straight] dude, I'd be happy that the dating ratio was so in my favor!

 

[HopefulAg]

If I were a [straight] dude, I'd be happy that the dating ratio was so in my favor!

Actually I think about 9/10 of our class is married, engaged, or dating. Not too many single ladies in vet school.

 

[awaring1]

Now I'm petrified that I'll be cornered in a lecture hall, dressed in jean leggings and forced to sing 'I'm a Pretty Princess" on the first day of classes.

... and will promptly post the video on SDN. 👍

 

[JulesMichy]

Hence, my blurb "now this is just my opinion". I am sort of a scientist too, that doesn't mean I can't offer my opinion.

You also said that you think your opinion carries more weight than a study, which is why you're being called out. If you want to claim to be a scientist you have to act like one, and promoting your own, biased anecdote over data is not it.

 

[TomTheK9Fixr]

You also said that you think your opinion carries more weight than a study, which is why you're being called out. If you want to claim to be a scientist you have to act like one, and promoting your own, biased anecdote over data is not it.

Ok, well I am not into people "Calling me out". Go bark up someone else tree!

 

[EllieGirl89]

I do wish there were more guys there, but that's just because women can't do fart jokes right.

Hello, my name is EllieG, I am a girl, and I see we haven't met. My father made sure to teach me ALL the important things growing up, so I can probably burp louder than you, spit farther, and out-joke your fart jokes.

 

[lunajett]

I don't really keep up with drama, but I'm not really sure our class has that much in the first place. For the most part it just seems like a normal class to me. I haven't really noticed any changes in dynamics or anything. Some people are nice, some can be *******s, some are melodramatic, some are social butterflies, and so on. Just seems like a regular cross-section of humanity to me. Maybe an overall more intelligent cross-section, but we have the full array of personality types I think.

Yep, same thing here. I don't really see the uneven sex ratio as being any kind of problem. If anything, I'd rather work in a more female-dominated field, so that's only a bonus for me. But then, in some ways, I'm not a "traditional" guy - ie, I couldn't care less about sports. So I find it annoying that many of the guys in lecture tend to spend most, if not all, of the time watching ESPN highlights on their laptops. But then, I alot of the girls are online shopping or Facebooking, so whatev. Personally I wish people would just stay home if they're not interested enough to pay attention in class, but that's a whole other can of worms and not related to this whole sex debate.

 

[sumstorm]

A lot of factors come into play, like gender roles and stereotypes, the availability of mentors, etc. There's a bunch of research that shows that people are more likely to enter fields were they see others like them. If boys don't see male vets, they are less likely to pursue a career in veterinary medicine. If anybody is interested in topics like this, type in "occupational segregation" in google scholar. Fascinating stuff.

That falls short though; the gender ratio for the profession only changed in 2009 according to the AVMCA. So until two years ago, there were more male mentors, role models, and male stereotypes. Can anyone name a well-known (on a national level) male vet? how about a well-known female vet? I can name (or give the pseudonym) of at least 2 males, and I can't think of a female (and I find that a sad reflection on myself as well.)

I actually think title IX had a huge impact. Gave women better access to the field. Follow that up with women who were raised with the concept of having to prove themselves, and the need to go above and beyond to be considered equal or be taken seriously, and you set the stage for competitive professional fields to have a sharp influx of women. Med schools had a sharp influx as well, but there are some alternative courses to essentially being a primary care provider in human med (NP, PA) that don't exist in vet med (where the ratios are sharply skewed to female vs male.) I actually think in another 30-40 years it will balance back out.

I also think that vet med has fewer glass ceilings because of the high percentage of small business's and self employed vets. My husband is an engineer and attended an engineering school, and didn't really believe in glass cielings until he went to his college class reunion and noted that even the best and brightest women, the ones that ran circles around the majority of men (in all aspects, ability, acumen, personality), and who hadn't had families (which could impact careers) just didn't have the same success as the comperable (or even sub par) males in the class. He said if it was the occasional woman, no big deal, but when you see consistent discrepencies (across classes, across schools, across professions) its hard to think there isn't something impacting that.

 

[NStarz]

Check this one out, too. Different perspective:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-barriers-to-women-in-science/article1935701/

 

[LetItSnow]

Hello, my name is EllieG, I am a girl, and I see we haven't met. My father made sure to teach me ALL the important things growing up, so I can probably burp louder than you, spit farther, and out-joke your fart jokes.

If I weren't already married.....

 

[sumstorm]

Check this one out, too. Different perspective:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-barriers-to-women-in-science/article1935701/

I do feel that some of it has to do with child rearing, but it shouldn't be too difficult to do a paired study to determine how much of a factor that is. compare women in the same fields of science that (1) have kids and consider themselves the primary care giver, (2) have kids don't but not primary caregiver (3) don't have kids. could take it a step farther and compare the same in men. My understanding (I don't have the article in front of me, and it was from 5-6 years ago) is that men with kids actually achieve higher positions than men without kids and are routinely reported to be more stable and such.

somewhere I posted a link to a study that found women and men are rated differently even if they give the same responses to questions during an interview or negotiation (trained actors played all the roles, so responses and movements and tone were as controlled as possible in all viewed positions, observers were answering questions about 'assertiveness' 'anger' etc....what was assertive and confident in a male was demanding and pushy in a woman.)

 

[nyanko]

So I find it annoying that many of the guys in lecture tend to spend most, if not all, of the time watching ESPN highlights on their laptops. But then, I alot of the girls are online shopping or Facebooking, so whatev. Personally I wish people would just stay home if they're not interested enough to pay attention in class, but that's a whole other can of worms and not related to this whole sex debate.

Mandatory attendance with check-in 🙄

I watched a hockey game the other day during a particularly boring mandatory attendance discussion section. 😀

 

[nohika]

If I weren't already married.....

On that aspect, I don't know if you're really her type, anyways... 😉

 

[EllieGirl89]

On that aspect, I don't know if you're really her type, anyways... 😉

Right you are...hmmm...I guess maybe my dad did too good a job teaching me those things. But thats a whole other nature vs nurture debate.😉

 

[LetItSnow]

On that aspect, I don't know if you're really her type, anyways... 😉

Heh. Well, in any case, I hope it was clear I was joking!!