PreVetMed

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Hello!

Can anyone shed some light on the new vet schools? I would like to know more about the most new schools that have opened: Utah State University, Midwestern University, and Lincoln Memorial University. Are any of them accredited yet? If not, do you know when they will be accredited?

For those of you who are currently attending any of these schools, can you please give pros and cons about the school? Also, does anyone know about any other vet schools possibly opening in the U.S. for next cycle's application?

Thank you all in advance!
 

pinkpuppy9

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Hello!

Can anyone shed some light on the new vet schools? I would like to know more about the most new schools that have opened: Utah State University, Midwestern University, and Lincoln Memorial University. Are any of them accredited yet? If not, do you know when they will be accredited?

For those of you who are currently attending any of these schools, can you please give pros and cons about the school? Also, does anyone know about any other vet schools possibly opening in the U.S. for next cycle's application?

Thank you all in advance!
I don't think any school can be officially accredited until the first class graduates and that class's NAVLE pass rate is determined. Both Midwestern and LMU have "Reasonable assurance" from the AVMA, meaning that assuming all goes well, they are on the road to being officially accredited.

All I know about Utah is that you do your pre-clinical years at USU, then head over to Washington for your clinic years. Their first graduating class will be finishing next May, and I believe they only accept 30 students per class.

I think Arizona is trying to establish a public veterinary school (MWU is private).
 
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PreVetMed

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I don't think any school can be officially accredited until the first class graduates and that class's NAVLE pass rate is determined. Both Midwestern and LMU have "Reasonable assurance" from the AVMA, meaning that assuming all goes well, they are on the road to being officially accredited.

All I know about Utah is that you do your pre-clinical years at USU, then head over to Washington for your clinic years. Their first graduating class will be finishing next May, and I believe they only accept 30 students per class.

I think Arizona is trying to establish a public veterinary school (MWU is private).
Yes I read this too, that the University of Arizona would be opening a Veterinary School. I believe they are already in the process of doing this.. This one is public.

WoW ok so Utah is only 30 students?! Geez... would they go to Washington State Vet school in Pullman, WA? I thought you can do your clinical rotations where ever you want..meaning not just in one place...
 

DVMDream

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Utah students go to Washington for the last 2 years. Years 1 and 2 are spent in Utah and years 3 and 4 are spent at Washington State.
 

alohacat319

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U of A campus visit for possible accreditation is supposed to be in Jan. If it succeeds (key word if) it is supposed to open Aug 2016, but I highly doubt it will open then even if it is approved.
 

DVMDream

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U of A campus visit for possible accreditation is supposed to be in Jan. If it succeeds (key word if) it is supposed to open Aug 2016, but I highly doubt it will open then even if it is approved.
I hope it never opens. Worst curriculum design I have ever seen. I also can't stand that they are pushing that Arizona needs more rural vets and vets on tribal lands.... yeah, that is probably true, but no vet is going to get paid enough money to work in either of those areas. Instead of opening a new school, focus on helping to repay AZ student loans of those who come back to the state and putting the money in that way. There are other ways to help with the cost of education for AZ students, the only reason to now open up a school is for the $$$$ that tuition brings in.
 

alohacat319

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I hope it never opens. Worst curriculum design I have ever seen. I also can't stand that they are pushing that Arizona needs more rural vets and vets on tribal lands.... yeah, that is probably true, but no vet is going to get paid enough money to work in either of those areas. Instead of opening a new school, focus on helping to repay AZ student loans of those who come back to the state and putting the money in that way. There are other ways to help with the cost of education for AZ students, the only reason to now open up a school is for the $$$$ that tuition brings in.
I would be all for them helping pay back loans, but since AZ education sucks in general... I don't have high hopes for that. I agree 100% about the curriculum though, it is such a mess.
 

DVMDream

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I would be all for them helping pay back loans, but since AZ education sucks in general... I don't have high hopes for that. I agree 100% about the curriculum though, it is such a mess.
A hot mess...

AZ, hot, mess.... haha? Ok, I am going back to boards studying. Or maybe I should stop?
 

batsenecal

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Hello!

Can anyone shed some light on the new vet schools? I would like to know more about the most new schools that have opened: Utah State University, Midwestern University, and Lincoln Memorial University. Are any of them accredited yet? If not, do you know when they will be accredited?

For those of you who are currently attending any of these schools, can you please give pros and cons about the school? Also, does anyone know about any other vet schools possibly opening in the U.S. for next cycle's application?

Thank you all in advance!
There's a thread stickied at the top of the Pre-Vet page that has a document with all the pros and cons that people have submitted for each school. I don't remember what's on there for LMU and Midwestern since I haven't looked at the document in a while. You can also go to the "class of" pages to get an idea of what people have said about the schools.

Utah doesn't have a vet school. They have a 2+2 program where students do 2 years at Utah and 2 years at Washington. It's the same sort of system Iowa has with UNL and Colorado has with UAF.

The University of Arizona admissions/curriculum doesn't even make sense to me.
 
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dvmhopeful2018

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I don't think any school can be officially accredited until the first class graduates and that class's NAVLE pass rate is determined. Both Midwestern and LMU have "Reasonable assurance" from the AVMA, meaning that assuming all goes well, they are on the road to being officially accredited.
LMU and Midwestern are provisionally accredited since the start of classes-the letter of reasonable assurance ended when the inaugural class began and they moved to provisional accreditation. The earliest either can gain full accreditation is with the graduation of c/o 2018.

"The LMU-CVM was granted a Letter of Reasonable Assurance from the American Veterinary Medical Association Council on Education (AVMA COE) on July 2, 2013. Reasonable Assurance is the classification granted to an educational institution seeking initial accreditation. The Letter of Reasonable Assurance enables the CVM to move forward toward COE Provisional Accreditation in the Fall 2014 with the acceptance of its first class of students. Under the standards of the AVMA’s Council on Education, LMU-CVM is able to seek full accreditation from the AVMA in 2018."

http://vetmed.lmunet.edu/about-cvm/accreditation/
 

pinkpuppy9

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Yes I read this too, that the University of Arizona would be opening a Veterinary School. I believe they are already in the process of doing this.. This one is public.

WoW ok so Utah is only 30 students?! Geez... would they go to Washington State Vet school in Pullman, WA? I thought you can do your clinical rotations where ever you want..meaning not just in one place...
In this particular instance, things have been signed and designed so that the class goes to WSU. That's probably why the class is so small, too. I would imagine that if the program were designed differently, there would be room for more students. I'm not familiar with it at all so that's just speculation.
LMU and Midwestern are provisionally accredited since the start of classes-the letter of reasonable assurance ended when the inaugural class began and they moved to provisional accreditation. The earliest either can gain full accreditation is with the graduation of c/o 2018.

"The LMU-CVM was granted a Letter of Reasonable Assurance from the American Veterinary Medical Association Council on Education (AVMA COE) on July 2, 2013. Reasonable Assurance is the classification granted to an educational institution seeking initial accreditation. The Letter of Reasonable Assurance enables the CVM to move forward toward COE Provisional Accreditation in the Fall 2014 with the acceptance of its first class of students. Under the standards of the AVMA’s Council on Education, LMU-CVM is able to seek full accreditation from the AVMA in 2018."

http://vetmed.lmunet.edu/about-cvm/accreditation/
Yep!
 
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rockatiel

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I just looked at UofA's admissions... Omg. I can't imagine anyone who would be ready to enter a DVM program straight out of an American high school. And no organic? No physics? Nooooooo!!!
 
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hazelmoo

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Don't know much about LMU, but for MWU one of the only major cons I can think of is $$$$$$. It is very expensive. I don't think accreditation will be a problem at all, since the only other stipulation they need to fulfill for accreditation is having a graduating class. I really loved MWU when I visited. The school is beautiful, the teaching hospital is amazing, and the location is great. BUT you have to really consider the cost of admission, since it's 57k a year and rising. My instate is over less than half of that price for a year. I would still love to go there, but that is a lot of debt!
 

FeartheDogMonky

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Completely agree that the last thing this profession needs right now are more universities.

Meanwhile in the depths of my brain ... the raging argument and frustration of the tuition rates of vet schools today versus salaries resurfaces... I'll fight the urge to rant and beat that horse though. Back to biochem and parasitology I go. :whistle:
 

WildZoo

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I just looked at UofA's admissions... Omg. I can't imagine anyone who would be ready to enter a DVM program straight out of an American high school. And no organic? No physics? Nooooooo!!!
The ****
No. Just no.
 

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I just looked at UofA's admissions... Omg. I can't imagine anyone who would be ready to enter a DVM program straight out of an American high school. And no organic? No physics? Nooooooo!!!
Wait, are you for real (seriously, I'm on my phone -- otherwise I'd check it)?

...because if there is one thing I was totally prepared for as a fresh-out-of-high-school 18-year-old, it's a doctorate program.
 

WildZoo

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Their VMD-1 plan is only 30 credits (uhh...I took more than that every year in undergrad) and at least half of it doesn't seem like vet school classes at all.
 

alohacat319

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Year one isn't vet school. It is like a prep year. All prerequisite classes are in that year I believe, then you apply for year two. Year two is when vet school begins. It's stupid and confusing how they are setting it up though. I guess you do year one, there will be like 300 kids accepted into that, then year two, 100 kids will be accepted from the class of year one kids. I don't understand how it would work for people who have already done undergrad though. They make you take year one again, but that's like repeating classes you already took.
 

batsenecal

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I also have the question of if they plan on opening their doors in August of 2016, how are they going to have students then? Are they going to have a separate application process after their January AVMA check? I was also wondering how they would factor in students who already have a bachelors.
 

WildZoo

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Year one isn't vet school. It is like a prep year. All prerequisite classes are in that year I believe, then you apply for year two. Year two is when vet school begins. It's stupid and confusing how they are setting it up though. I guess you do year one, there will be like 300 kids accepted into that, then year two, 100 kids will be accepted from the class of year one kids. I don't understand how it would work for people who have already done undergrad though. They make you take year one again, but that's like repeating classes you already took.
Yeah, I kind of got that, but it just makes no sense. Even going "year round" (they are going to have some breaks, right? Or are they just hoping all their students burn out?) they've cut the typical undergrad portion to one year and aren't even covering what most schools require for undergrad in that year, and then they've basically cut the vet school curriculum down from 4 years to 3. I don't understand how they think that is going to work. I haven't seen (and don't know if they have a plan published) for VMD-2 through 4 though.
 
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wheelin2vetmed

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I just looked at UofA's admissions... Omg. I can't imagine anyone who would be ready to enter a DVM program straight out of an American high school. And no organic? No physics? Nooooooo!!!
Doesn't Royal do the same sort of thing? Kids coming out of high school (18) starting the vet program? They call it the regular Bachelor of Veterinary medicine, not the accelerated programme.

Year one isn't vet school. It is like a prep year. All prerequisite classes are in that year I believe, then you apply for year two. Year two is when vet school begins. It's stupid and confusing how they are setting it up though. I guess you do year one, there will be like 300 kids accepted into that, then year two, 100 kids will be accepted from the class of year one kids. I don't understand how it would work for people who have already done undergrad though. They make you take year one again, but that's like repeating classes you already took.
Yea, the first year is the "pre-professional" year. I'm not so sure where everything lines up, because someone with an undergrad degree has a huge advantage over the kid straight out of high school. Don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure I remember speaking to our professor about AZ grads. If we got an acceptance from any other vet school, we'd get a conditional acceptance to the AZ vet school and automatically pass the pre-professional year.
 

WildZoo

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Doesn't Royal do the same sort of thing? Kids coming out of high school (18) starting the vet program? They call it the regular Bachelor of Veterinary medicine, not the accelerated programme.
Yeah but they're not coming out of American high school ;)
 

DVMDream

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Doesn't Royal do the same sort of thing? Kids coming out of high school (18) starting the vet program? They call it the regular Bachelor of Veterinary medicine, not the accelerated programme.
Yes, but you have to remember the UK has been doing that since the beginning and they do that with many degrees that we in the US typically consider "doctorate" or higher level degrees. High school in the UK is also much different than high school in the US. It is a completely different educational system. Also, the program in the UK is 5 years, not 4 years like U of A is doing.
 
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wheelin2vetmed

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Yes, but you have to remember the UK has been doing that since the beginning and they do that with many degrees that we in the US typically consider "doctorate" or higher level degrees. High school in the UK is also much different than high school in the US. It is a completely different educational system. Also, the program in the UK is 5 years, not 4 years like U of A is doing.
The 3 year, year-round portion of the AZ veterinary curriculum is a little unsettling. It's going to be difficult as it is for me just thinking about some medical issues that have cropped up during undergrad. Could be bad news for if something happened in a program like that.

But nonetheless, just because a US school hasn't done it and just because the UK educational system is different doesn't necessarily mean anything; that's faulty logic. It could fail miserably. It could also work. If the AVMA gives AZ the green light then I guess we'll just wait and see the aftermath.
 
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Yeah but they're not coming out of American high school ;)
Yep.

In addition to the overall joke that is American high school education, there is more emphasis on and opportunity for picking your areas of interest early in the UK. This allows for harder science work at an earlier age. My dad loves to remind me never took anything but a math or science course after about age 16.
 

DVMDream

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The 3 year, year-round portion of the AZ veterinary curriculum is a little unsettling. It's going to be difficult as it is for me just thinking about some medical issues that have cropped up during undergrad. Could be bad news for if something happened in a program like that.

But nonetheless, just because a US school hasn't done it and just because the UK educational system is different doesn't necessarily mean anything; that's faulty logic. It could fail miserably. It could also work. If the AVMA gives AZ the green light then I guess we'll just wait and see the aftermath.
It is a bad idea. I don't particularly like the UK system of vet school after high school. It seems to be working for them, but I think there is benefit to having a year or two prior to veterinary school to be able to explore more options and more career paths. Many of the kids in the UK schools have zero veterinary experience upon walking into veterinary school. I don't agree with that. These high school kids in the US definitely aren't going to have much, if any, experience for exploring veterinary medicine prior to applying to the U of A program. I do believe it is vital to obtain experience prior to heading to veterinary school and many veterinary clinics won't even allow someone younger than 18 to observe or shadow. It is difficult enough for a 20-something with a desire to get experience to gain experience, it will be near impossible for someone younger than 18. The VMCAS application asks in one of its prompts "when did you make your adult decision to pursue veterinary medicine". A 17 year old applying for veterinary school immediately after high school has not been able to make an "adult" decision towards a doctorate degree, they aren't an adult. I think they will end up with a lot of stressed out, unprepared students with the potential for a very high failing rate and attrition rate (think of how many people drop out of or fail undergrad programs or change their minds 4432342 times before deciding what they really want to do, that is what the vet med year 1 will be and it will probably trickle into year 2 as well).
 

alohacat319

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I honestly think the AZ system is a complete disaster. First off, year around would be SO difficult. Students need breaks, it just isn't possible to work that hard consistently for that long. Secondly, they are not building a hospital and are contracting out to local area vets. In doing so, you will not get nearly the exposure that you would at an actual teaching hospital. Majority of the "weird" cases end up at teaching hospitals are because that's where so many specialists are. Yes, you'll be great at GP work, but there is so much beyond that. Especially for students wanting to specialize, I think your opportunities will be less. On top of that, for your last year (I believe that is how it is set up) every six weeks you will move to a different area of the state for various training aspects such as dairy medicine, equine medicine, etc. Part of the training is set to be in Northern AZ, part on the Mexico/AZ border, part in Tucson, some in Phoenix... how is that reasonable? Where will you live? What about pets, which most vet students have? Finally, I have spoken to many vets around town and every single one has said that they haven't heard of anyone even being ASKED by the University if they would be willing to have students come work at their practices throughout their schooling. I just feel like it is being rushed through the system rather than properly planning it and taking the time to create a well rounded, proper system for education.



*****disclaimer, this is all based off of what professors at the U of A and area veterinarians have told me. I very well could be wrong, and do not claim to know everything about the new school.
 
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wheelin2vetmed

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It is a bad idea. I don't particularly like the UK system of vet school after high school. It seems to be working for them, but I think there is benefit to having a year or two prior to veterinary school to be able to explore more options and more career paths. Many of the kids in the UK schools have zero veterinary experience upon walking into veterinary school. I don't agree with that. These high school kids in the US definitely aren't going to have much, if any, experience for exploring veterinary medicine prior to applying to the U of A program. I do believe it is vital to obtain experience prior to heading to veterinary school and many veterinary clinics won't even allow someone younger than 18 to observe or shadow. It is difficult enough for a 20-something with a desire to get experience to gain experience, it will be near impossible for someone younger than 18. The VMCAS application asks in one of its prompts "when did you make your adult decision to pursue veterinary medicine". A 17 year old applying for veterinary school immediately after high school has not been able to make an "adult" decision towards a doctorate degree, they aren't an adult. I think they will end up with a lot of stressed out, unprepared students with the potential for a very high failing rate (think of how many people drop out of or fail undergrad programs or change their minds 4432342 times before deciding what they really want to do, that is what the vet med year 1 will be and it will probably trickle into year 2 as well) and attrition rate.
I agree with your points for sure. From my brief discussions with some people here, I left with the understanding that the kids coming in from high-school won't be the norm. They'll be the exceptional students with the smarts and drive to succeed in a demanding program, and will likely enter the program with college level credits already (I guess a lot of highschoolers are doing that nowadays). The rest will be the "normal" undergrads.

Not sure if there are projected numbers to how many of each age group will be accepted yet.
 

DVMDream

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I agree with your points for sure. From my brief discussions with some people here, I left with the understanding that the kids coming in from high-school won't be the norm. They'll be the exceptional students with the smarts and drive to succeed in a demanding program, and will likely enter the program with college level credits already (I guess a lot of highschoolers are doing that nowadays). The rest will be the "normal" undergrads.

Not sure if there are projected numbers to how many of each age group will be accepted yet.
Exceptional students fail in college all the time. And it doesn't matter how exceptional they are, the point of not having any veterinary experience prior to starting a doctorate program in veterinary medicine is not a good idea. So many people dropped out of my class in the UK because they "didn't realize what vet med was really like". Experience before hand helps to diminish that shock after they have already started the program and have already started to accrue debt.

ETA: I would also be pissed to be a "normal undergrad" and have to pay to retake all those introductory courses.

Not only that, you NEED breaks from veterinary school. Year round is a bad idea.
 

DVMDream

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I honestly think the AZ system is a complete disaster. First off, year around would be SO difficult. Students need breaks, it just isn't possible to work that hard consistently for that long. Secondly, they are not building a hospital and are contracting out to local area vets. In doing so, you will not get nearly the exposure that you would at an actual teaching hospital. Majority of the "weird" cases end up at teaching hospitals are because that's where so many specialists are. Yes, you'll be great at GP work, but there is so much beyond that. Especially for students wanting to specialize, I think your opportunities will be less. On top of that, for your last year (I believe that is how it is set up) every six weeks you will move to a different area of the state for various training aspects such as dairy medicine, equine medicine, etc. Part of the training is set to be in Northern AZ, part on the Mexico/AZ border, part in Tucson, some in Phoenix... how is that reasonable? Where will you live? What about pets, which most vet students have? Finally, I have spoken to many vets around town and every single one has said that they haven't heard of anyone even being ASKED by the University if they would be willing to have students come work at their practices throughout their schooling. I just feel like it is being rushed through the system rather than properly planning it and taking the time to create a well rounded, proper system for education.



*****disclaimer, this is all based off of what professors at the U of A and area veterinarians have told me. I very well could be wrong, and do not claim to know everything about the new school.
I don't think people realize just how big Arizona really is.

I was wondering WTF they were doing when they gained that farm in northern arizona... I was all... uhh? Are you going to build some dorms or something up there? Because what are the students supposed to do?

Talk about the point of making a "cheap alternative" and turning it expensive with having students needing to pay for places to stay all over the state.
 
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alohacat319

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I don't think people realize just how big Arizona really is.

I was wondering WTF they were doing when they gained that farm in northern arizona... I was all... uhh? Are you going to build some dorms or something up there? Because what are the students supposed to do?

Talk about the point of making a "cheap alternative" and turning it expensive with having students needing to pay for places to stay all over the state.
From what I have heard/read- They have two farms in various parts of northern AZ, they have dairies in PHX, they have stuff in Douglas, Supposedly you will spend six weeks in Nogalas working at the border checking animals that are coming across, equine would be in Prescott, and GP would be all over Tucson. No clue where you would do specialties... I guess externships or specialty centers around town?

No matter what, it's a big HELL NO from me, even if my Dad would LOVE it if I would stay in-state.
 

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Not only that, you NEED breaks from veterinary school. Year round is a bad idea.
This. This so much. With my curriculum we only get 8 weeks for summer and I needed those weeks. 24 weeks of school basically without a big break was brutal, so I honestly couldn't imagine having even less of a break... though I know Ross runs similarly with only 2 weeks between each semester... I guess I have no idea how they do it either.
 

Ashgirl

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This. This so much. With my curriculum we only get 8 weeks for summer and I needed those weeks. 24 weeks of school basically without a big break was brutal, so I honestly couldn't imagine having even less of a break... though I know Ross runs similarly with only 2 weeks between each semester... I guess I have no idea how they do it either.
While writing this I looked it up and Ross grads graduate in 3.4 years so cutting the time down is possible, I'm just not so sure it's the greatest idea mental health wise. :shrug:
 

batsenecal

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This. This so much. With my curriculum we only get 8 weeks for summer and I needed those weeks. 24 weeks of school basically without a big break was brutal, so I honestly couldn't imagine having even less of a break... though I know Ross runs similarly with only 2 weeks between each semester... I guess I have no idea how they do it either.
I wonder if it is more similar to the US public education year round system. I had a year round system during elementary school and it was six weeks of Christmas and Summer break and a one week fall and spring break.
 

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Exceptional students fail in college all the time. And it doesn't matter how exceptional they are, the point of not having any veterinary experience prior to starting a doctorate program in veterinary medicine is not a good idea.
Yep... I think it's also important to have at least a couple standard undergrad years to mature as a person before tackling a doctorate level program. I know the UK kids jump right into things more or less and appear to survive the experience, but I think there is definitely something to be said for having that time.
 

WildZoo

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I agree with your points for sure. From my brief discussions with some people here, I left with the understanding that the kids coming in from high-school won't be the norm. They'll be the exceptional students with the smarts and drive to succeed in a demanding program, and will likely enter the program with college level credits already (I guess a lot of highschoolers are doing that nowadays). The rest will be the "normal" undergrads.

Not sure if there are projected numbers to how many of each age group will be accepted yet.
I went into undergrad with 37 credits from high school and still wouldn't have considered myself (or anyone I knew from high school who had similar credit levels) ready for a professional program. I mean, I have friends who are now at top tier med schools (why does that phrase sound so gross?) and I don't think any of them would say they were ready for that after one year of college, which is what VMD-1 would be at U of A. Beyond any of the academic stuff, I definitely agree with DVMD - most people get the bulk of their veterinary experience post-high school. This kind of program leaves no time for that, or for really exploring your options.
 
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DVMDream

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I went into undergrad with 37 credits from high school and still wouldn't have considered myself (or anyone I knew from high school who had similar credit levels) ready for a professional program. I mean, I have friends who are now at top tier med schools (why does that phrase sound so gross?) and I don't think any of them would say they were ready for that after one year of college, which is what VMD-1 would be at U of A. Beyond any of the academic stuff, I definitely agree with DVMD - most people get the bulk of their veterinary experience post-high school. This kind of program leaves no time for that, or for really exploring your options.
It also leaves no time for externships and making connections within the veterinary community. Both of which are very important for anyone wanting to pursue an internship/residency. Or even just for looking for a job, a lot of people who are getting job offers in my class currently, are getting them from clinics that they did externships at or worked at on breaks.
 
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pinkpuppy9

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I went into undergrad with 37 credits from high school and still wouldn't have considered myself (or anyone I knew from high school who had similar credit levels) ready for a professional program. I mean, I have friends who are now at top tier med schools (why does that phrase sound so gross?) and I don't think any of them would say they were ready for that after one year of college, which is what VMD-1 would be at U of A. Beyond any of the academic stuff, I definitely agree with DVMD - most people get the bulk of their veterinary experience post-high school. This kind of program leaves no time for that, or for really exploring your options.
FWIW, the Australian vet I worked under went into vet school out of high school (I want to say he said he was 16, but I can't be sure). He said although he had the brains, he was so immature it wasn't funny. He had trouble being responsible and taking things seriously. He ended up being a pain in the rear most of the time. Now, he's a brilliant zoo vet in a highly sought after position. I think that goes to show you that these programs won't churn out any more bad vets than traditional schools (not that anyone implied this), but even grads of these types of programs felt they weren't ready. The only real benefit I see is getting done with vet school sooner in life, but it's only four years sooner. It just seems crazy that my little sister could be a first year veterinary student if she wanted.
 

WildZoo

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FWIW, the Australian vet I worked under went into vet school out of high school (I want to say he said he was 16, but I can't be sure). He said although he had the brains, he was so immature it wasn't funny. He had trouble being responsible and taking things seriously. He ended up being a pain in the rear most of the time. Now, he's a brilliant zoo vet in a highly sought after position. I think that goes to show you that these programs won't churn out any more bad vets than traditional schools (not that anyone implied this), but even grads of these types of programs felt they weren't ready. The only real benefit I see is getting done with vet school sooner in life, but it's only four years sooner. It just seems crazy that my little sister could be a first year veterinary student if she wanted.
I'm not sure one anecdote proves anything really and again, there's a vast difference between education systems in different countries. I'm not saying it will definitely churn out bad vets. I'm actually more concerned that it would lead to more people wasting time and money going to school for something that they aren't sure they want to do.
 

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I don't think anyone, even those who are currently attending the new schools, can really comment on whether or not they are doing a good job.

People say really random propaganda stuff about them all the time, "great curriculum, state of the arts facilities, dedicated professors, excellent quality of x, y, z" or whatever... But none of that really means anything. Just because someone is happy during their first couple years of schools doesn't mean the curriculum is good, or that they will become good veterinarians.

I don't think any first or second year vet student who hasn't actually seen the curricula at other schools can say how their school's compares. I don't think any first or second year has remotely any clue as to what constitutes a proper teaching hospital or clinical curriculum. Anyone who thinks they can is really full of bull, and isn't someone I'd trust to paint an accurate picture.

The biggest con for these schools is the UNKNOWN quality of education/experience they're providing. Because of this, they don't attract the strongest applicant pool, and therefore tends to have a below average class filling their seats. It's unknown at this point what that means for the quality of doctors they will be sending out. Maybe they'll be okay. Maybe they won't. Who knows... Also, how discriminated against will these students be from internships/residencies/employment opportunities? Dunno. Likely more than students from longer established programs.
 

pinkpuppy9

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I'm not sure one anecdote proves anything really and again, there's a vast difference between education systems in different countries. I'm not saying it will definitely churn out bad vets. I'm actually more concerned that it would lead to more people wasting time and money going to school for something that they aren't sure they want to do.
That anecdote was backing up what you were saying....that a high school grad isn't ready for a professional program. Even if they have the brains, there's still a lot of development that needs to occur, emotionally speaking. Also, I know you weren't saying these programs are bad, that's why I noted that!

I'd be curious to see if these programs do in fact have lower attrition rates when compared to the more traditional programs. There's a lot of stuff to take into account when both attending and deciding to leave veterinary school, most of which 18-year old me would have been blissfully unaware of. I'm sure there are 18 year olds who can fully handle such huge decisions, but I know I couldn't at that age.
 

WildZoo

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That anecdote was backing up what you were saying....that a high school grad isn't ready for a professional program. Even if they have the brains, there's still a lot of development that needs to occur, emotionally speaking. Also, I know you weren't saying these programs are bad, that's why I noted that!

I'd be curious to see if these programs do in fact have lower attrition rates when compared to the more traditional programs. There's a lot of stuff to take into account when both attending and deciding to leave veterinary school, most of which 18-year old me would have been blissfully unaware of. I'm sure there are 18 year olds who can fully handle such huge decisions, but I know I couldn't at that age.
I was referring more to the "now he's a brilliant zoo vet" part. Obviously we can't expect that every immature kid who goes to vet school comes out super successful. And since we have no way of knowing how he would have done at a traditional school (though I think these programs are more the norm in Australia anyway) who knows if the type of school made a difference at all in his case.
 

pinkpuppy9

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I was referring more to the "now he's a brilliant zoo vet" part. Obviously we can't expect that every immature kid who goes to vet school comes out super successful. And since we have no way of knowing how he would have done at a traditional school (though I think these programs are more the norm in Australia anyway) who knows if the type of school made a difference at all in his case.
It just goes to show you that even someone who did come out of that type of program on top still thinks it isn't the best design. There's no proving with that anecdote, other than the fact that people who have gone through it found it a little absurd.
 

WildZoo

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It just goes to show you that even someone who did come out of that type of program on top still thinks it isn't the best design. There's no proving with that anecdote, other than the fact that people who have gone through it found it a little absurd.
Ah I see what you mean now.
 

DVMDream

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That anecdote was backing up what you were saying....that a high school grad isn't ready for a professional program. Even if they have the brains, there's still a lot of development that needs to occur, emotionally speaking. Also, I know you weren't saying these programs are bad, that's why I noted that!

I'd be curious to see if these programs do in fact have lower attrition rates when compared to the more traditional programs. There's a lot of stuff to take into account when both attending and deciding to leave veterinary school, most of which 18-year old me would have been blissfully unaware of. I'm sure there are 18 year olds who can fully handle such huge decisions, but I know I couldn't at that age.
Drop out rate at RVC is 3% for the first year. 6% at Edinburgh. Glasgow doesn't have the information available from what my very quick search could find.
 

DVMDream

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For the US schools, the 2015 first year attrition rate was 1.8%....

Whether there is an actual difference there or not, I don't know. I can't find information on the other UK veterinary schools for first year drop out rates and two data points isn't near enough to make any conclusions from, other than the percent drop out does seem to be higher at the UK schools, whether it is a significant difference can't be determined.
 

pinkpuppy9

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Ah I see what you mean now.
Sorry if I worded it poorly, lol.
Drop out rate at RVC is 3% for the first year. 6% at Edinburgh. Glasgow doesn't have the information available from what my very quick search could find.
I wish there was some sort of thorough study into attrition rates. Something like 'How many students left the program for finances, how many for personal reasons, and how many left and elected to reapply to a US school (assuming they are US applicants).' The only thing I've found was a pretty dated study... http://eric.ed.gov/?id=EJ136413 apparently the US attrition rate was almost 13% in the 60's!
 
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