New vet schools

Veterinary Science Graduate Programs from U. of I.
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DVMDream said:
For the US schools, the 2015 first year attrition rate was 1.8%....

Whether there is an actual difference there or not, I don't know. I can't find information on the other UK veterinary schools for first year drop out rates and two data points isn't near enough to make any conclusions from, other than the percent drop out does seem to be higher at the UK schools, whether it is a significant difference can't be determined.
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Does attrition include any reason for leaving?
 
This just feels like an way to make a lot of money and exploit kids who (might) want to be vets. I've seen the model at other colleges for different degrees. I'm sure the first year class has to pay vet school tuition, which will be anywhere from 40-55k, if it follows the trend of other schools. Only instead of >100 students, it will be 300. Several will drop out when they realize it's not what they want, but not after they've paid their expensive tuition bill. The school will guarantee the ability to get their tuition cost x300 students every single year.
 
DVMDream said:
Drop out rate at RVC is 3% for the first year. 6% at Edinburgh. Glasgow doesn't have the information available from what my very quick search could find.
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My class lost 2/139 starting. And then lost a whole bunch to lower years with failed exams(18 my 4th year) and gained a bunch from upper classes and ended up graduating with 92, but they didn't drop out, just changed graduating year.

I guess I am of a different thinking than the masses on here. I highly approve of the UK high school system. And even if my fellow classmates get a few years out and decide to switch careers, what's so wrong with that? They are young enough and it's no different than someone here doing vet school non-trad. A Vet Degree will serve them well in life and they can go so many different directions. I valued my undergrad degree and wouldn't give back my college experience for anything, but it's different over there. In some ways I did see a maturity difference, but the younger students were scoring top marks all the way through. It's hard to compare attrition rates in the UK to the US. They don't pay for their first undergrad degree. I think if you want to compare the two you would have to look at N. American students in those programs only.

Do I think this system would work over here? Absolutely not.
 
shortnsweet said:
I guess I am of a different thinking than the masses on here. I highly approve of the UK high school system. And even if my fellow classmates get a few years out and decide to switch careers, what's so wrong with that? They are young enough and it's no different than someone here doing vet school non-trad. A Vet Degree will serve them well in life and they can go so many different directions. I valued my undergrad degree and wouldn't give back my college experience for anything, but it's different over there. In some ways I did see a maturity difference, but the younger students were scoring top marks all the way through. It's hard to compare attrition rates in the UK to the US. They don't pay for their first undergrad degree. I think if you want to compare the two you would have to look at N. American students in those programs only.

Do I think this system would work over here? Absolutely not.
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I actually think we all agree with you here. We're saying that the UK system works for the UK because of how their public education is set up, and that this system wouldn't work in the US because of how the US public education system is set up.
 
batsenecal said:
I actually think we all agree with you here. We're saying that the UK system works for the UK because of how their public education is set up, and that this system wouldn't work in the US because of how the US public education system is set up.
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Eh I read more of the comments as...there's no way they could have enough vet or life experience at 18, no matter how good their high schools are.
 
shortnsweet said:
My class lost 2/139 starting. And then lost a whole bunch to lower years with failed exams(18 my 4th year) and gained a bunch from upper classes and ended up graduating with 92, but they didn't drop out, just changed graduating year.

I guess I am of a different thinking than the masses on here. I highly approve of the UK high school system. And even if my fellow classmates get a few years out and decide to switch careers, what's so wrong with that? They are young enough and it's no different than someone here doing vet school non-trad. A Vet Degree will serve them well in life and they can go so many different directions. I valued my undergrad degree and wouldn't give back my college experience for anything, but it's different over there. In some ways I did see a maturity difference, but the younger students were scoring top marks all the way through. It's hard to compare attrition rates in the UK to the US. They don't pay for their first undergrad degree. I think if you want to compare the two you would have to look at N. American students in those programs only.

Do I think this system would work over here? Absolutely not.
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Except, I was commenting on someone wanting to know if the students over there going in right out of high school vs. the students over here in the US having some college prior to vet school actually makes a difference. So that bolded comparison won't work. However, I will repeat my statement from earlier, I don't think you can even compare the drop out rates/attrition rates between the US and the UK because there isn't enough data currently available to do so.

There is definitely nothing "wrong" with going to vet school and then graduating and changing your mind, considering that over there they aren't $200K into the hole. That isn't the same here and that is my point with the U of A model. Those students will still have an enormous debt burden coming out and to place high school students into that type of system so that they are then trapped or feel obligated to stay into a career only so they can actually pay back their debt is a very bad idea.
 
shortnsweet said:
Eh I read more of the comments as...there's no way they could have enough vet or life experience at 18, no matter how good their high schools are.
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Easily over 75% of the students where I was at had ZERO veterinary experience prior to veterinary school. They don't have enough veterinary experience at 18. Their high schools are definitely much better than ours are and I even stated that. But the amount of veterinary experience and exposure they have prior to veterinary school is horrible.

That isn't to say that it doesn't work for them, because it does. But I do believe a lot of them would benefit from seeing more of the career that they are diving into.
 
I only quoted your comment because you mentioned Glasgow lol, not disagreeing with you.

DVMDream said:
Easily over 75% of the students where I was at had ZERO veterinary experience prior to veterinary school. They don't have enough veterinary experience at 18. Their high schools are definitely much better than ours are and I even stated that. But the amount of veterinary experience and exposure they have prior to veterinary school is horrible.

That isn't to say that it doesn't work for them, because it does. But I do believe a lot of them would benefit from seeing more of the career that they are diving into.
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Agreed, they may understand the profession a bit more...but EMS requirements during vet school make up for that I think.

I was very confused when all of my UK classmates said they were going into mixed practice first to figure out what they want, and internships weren't even an option out of vet school because they expect a few years of practice.
 
shortnsweet said:
I only quoted your comment because you mentioned Glasgow lol, not disagreeing with you.



Agreed, they may understand the profession a bit more...but EMS requirements during vet school make up for that I think.

I was very confused when all of my UK classmates said they were going into mixed practice first to figure out what they want, and internships weren't even an option out of vet school because they expect a few years of practice.
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Yeah, the EMS definitely helps them get exposure. I just wish they got more before they were already committed to veterinary school.

I mean, it works for them.


I just really don't think the UK system being implemented by U of A, especially since they are attempting to cram it into 4 years instead of 5, will work. So I really, really hope the AVMA COE slams them for it and doesn't approve it.
 
DVMDream said:
I just really don't think the UK system being implemented by U of A, especially since they are attempting to cram it into 4 years instead of 5, will work. So I really, really hope the AVMA COE slams them for it and doesn't approve it.
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Amen sista.
 
DVMDream said:
Yeah, the EMS definitely helps them get exposure. I just wish they got more before they were already committed to veterinary school.

I mean, it works for them.


I just really don't think the UK system being implemented by U of A, especially since they are attempting to cram it into 4 years instead of 5, will work. So I really, really hope the AVMA COE slams them for it and doesn't approve it.
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I wonder if the idea to try this out in the US has anything to do with a desire to eliminate undergrad debt for veterinary students. I still don't think it will be a successful program, but I'd like to think this is an attempt at helping vet students (ignoring the fact that we really don't need more schools...).
 
I mean the professional schools right out of high school is the norm in most of the world. We're the odd ducks out.

It works well enough for everyone else, but most other countries that we would compare ourselves to expect people to be adults by the time they graduate high school. Americans think high school graduates are just little kids who need to be babysat in college for another 4 years before they're remotely close to entering a proper workforce.

Would it be better for the veterinary profession in other countries if those entering vet schools needed as much veterinary experience prior to matriculation as we require here? Maybe. But whatever they're doing works well enough for them. There are many countries out there that have high level of vet care, with wonderful competent vets who aren't in this huge ****hole of debt that we are.

Having that vet school model here without altering anything else would be a ****storm. That's for sure.
 
pinkpuppy9 said:
I wonder if the idea to try this out in the US has anything to do with a desire to eliminate undergrad debt for veterinary students. I still don't think it will be a successful program, but I'd like to think this is an attempt at helping vet students (ignoring the fact that we really don't need more schools...).
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Doubtful.

They want money.
 
So the first year at U of A would give you a bachelors? The remaining 3 years would be vet school? Am I getting this correctly? Are there any other vet schools in the U.S. that currently do this (meaning give you a bachelor's degree while attending vet school)? I read on here somewhere Washington State vet schools does..?
 
There are schools where if you are currently in a bachelors and are accepted to vet school as a junior, you will be awarded a bachelors once you complete one year of vet school. Purdue does this in conjunction with it's undergrad 3+1 program.
 
PreVetMed said:
So the first year at U of A would give you a bachelors? The remaining 3 years would be vet school? Am I getting this correctly? Are there any other vet schools in the U.S. that currently do this (meaning give you a bachelor's degree while attending vet school)? I read on here somewhere Washington State vet schools does..?
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I don't think the first year gives you a bachelor's, it isn't enough credit hours or courses and it isn't really taken as part of a major in order to be given a bachelor's.

Some vet schools will allow for a student to obtain a bachelor's degree if they enter veterinary school after their junior year of undergrad, then the bachelor's will be awarded after the first year. These are students that have already done three years of an undergrad towards a specific degree.
 
Oh I see.. it was very confusing what I read someone wrote. Thanks!
 
pinkpuppy9 said:
I wonder if the idea to try this out in the US has anything to do with a desire to eliminate undergrad debt for veterinary students. I still don't think it will be a successful program, but I'd like to think this is an attempt at helping vet students (ignoring the fact that we really don't need more schools...).
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The current dean of the U of A college of ag is from either New Zealand or Ausi (can't remember which) and he went through a program like the one they are trying to implement at the U of A for his DVM. He is modelling it after that supposedly to minimize debt and speed up the education process.
 
The AVMA and the COE are full of BS when it comes to accrediting standards. I attended one of the COE listening sessions held at the major conventions, the Western Vet Conference in Feb 2015. Fred Derksen, a COE member, was asked a question about NAVLE pass rates being part of the standards but obviously not being something COE could monitor in overseas schools. He said US students do not have take the NAVLE in order to graduate to downplay its value in accreditation criteria based on the school's NAVLE pass rate. This was obvious lying because NAVLE is required to be licensed and employed in any clinical capacity. If they accredit Arizona's program, a lot of state boards and established veterinary schools should be challenging the integrity of the COE of being the "gold standard" accrediting committee.

Also their consulting committee for their school, seems to be all local DVMs and practice owners with no experience at all in educating veterinarians at any level. This will be a bottom of the barrel institution only there to raise revenue.
 
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Could the AVMA have more teeth if they wanted to? Didn't Western sue them (and win) when they didn't want to accredit their school?

Just going based on memory here 😛
 
Western sued on restraint of trade claiming that the COE standards, especially the teaching hospital standard, kept them from offering their new "distributive" model. They needed COE stamp of approval in order for graduates to be eligible for state licensure by the 50 states which use graduation from COE accredited school as one requirement for licensure. Otherwise, Western graduates would have had to take the foreign graduate pathway of the ECFVG program to become eligible. This opened the door to a more "creative" application of the COE standards to almost anyone who wants to open a veterinary school or to any overseas school that wants that COE stamp to be able to educate US students and get the federal student loan money which only can go to COE approved schools. For the standard to be valued it has be be applied to the letter or formally changed and accepted by all of the stakeholders using that standard.

AVMA caved to Western without going to court. Now the proverbial barn door is wide open to almost anyone starting a veterinary school. If the COE was totally independent, then it would be a lot harder for start ups to sue, because they would not be tainted by the AVMA which is basically a trade organization of veterinarians . This is why the AMA no longer accredits medical schools, because of the potential conflict of interest.
 
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This makes me really sad for all vet students and new grads. (Because of what it does to the job market.) 🙁 I hope I live long enough to see the day when this profession is not all effed up (by stuff like this.)
 
JosephKnechtDVM said:
The AVMA and the COE are full of BS when it comes to accrediting standards. I attended one of the COE listening sessions held at the major conventions, the Western Vet Conference in Feb 2015. Fred Derksen, a COE member, was asked a question about NAVLE pass rates being part of the standards but obviously not being something COE could monitor in overseas schools. He said US students do not have take the NAVLE in order to graduate to downplay its value in accreditation criteria based on the school's NAVLE pass rate. This was obvious lying because NAVLE is required to be licensed and employed in any clinical capacity. If they accredit Arizona's program, a lot of state boards and established veterinary schools should be challenging the integrity of the COE of being the "gold standard" accrediting committee.

Also their consulting committee for their school, seems to be all local DVMs and practice owners with no experience at all in educating veterinarians at any level. This will be a bottom of the barrel institution only there to raise revenue.
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At non-accredited schools you mean?
 
Non accredited schools and schools where students do not take the NAVLE as part of their licensing process for the country they practice in like Mexico , where UNAM was accredited. So if no students took the exam , they could not be assessed or if two students took NAVLE and passed, it would be 100% pass rate. Again, a lot of good DVMs, do not see how or why COE should be an international a creditor.
 
Does anyone on here attend the Utah/Logan program, or know of anyone that does? I am applying to WSU, and wondering if I should mark "yes" that I am interested in it, or not. Does anyone know if I get into the UT program does that supersede and then you do not get an offer to WSU? Thanks!
 
Adogloveralways said:
Does anyone on here attend the Utah/Logan program, or know of anyone that does? I am applying to WSU, and wondering if I should mark "yes" that I am interested in it, or not. Does anyone know if I get into the UT program does that supersede and then you do not get an offer to WSU? Thanks!
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I went through the Utah program. If you get offered a spot in Utah you will not get offered a spot in Washington.
 
Abnerrs said:
I went through the Utah program. If you get offered a spot in Utah you will not get offered a spot in Washington.
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Hello, thank you so much for your response! Ok so it's like the AF/CSU program where if you get offered a spot in the AF program, you do not get offered a spot at CSU.

Interesting..how did you enjoy the program for the first two years in Utah? What is the area like, and is the rent expensive (since I know tuition is pricey)? Is the DVM degree you receive then from WSU?
 
Adogloveralways said:
Hello, thank you so much for your response! Ok so it's like the AF/CSU program where if you get offered a spot in the AF program, you do not get offered a spot at CSU.

Interesting..how did you enjoy the program for the first two years in Utah? What is the area like, and is the rent expensive (since I know tuition is pricey)? Is the DVM degree you receive then from WSU?
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I liked it. Honestly there are some pros and there are somes cons to going through that program. And Logan is really cheap for living expenses. I had a 2bd 1.5ba townhouse with a carport, w/d, dishwasher, little storage unit, and a fireplace for $620/mo. Pullman is much more expensive.

If you got offered a spot in Pullman you can apply for IS after your first year. You can't do that if you go through the Utah program. You pay OOS all 4 years. By the way I saw it, I was OOS everywhere, Nevada doesn't have a school. And it's not that bad for tuition in that regard. And especially if they still do the 8k/year tuition assistance for the OOS Utah students. It made it fairly "cheap" as an OOS.

Logan is beautiful, way more stuff to do outside than Pullman. But not much in the way of bars etc of you're into that.
 
Abnerrs said:
I liked it. Honestly there are some pros and there are somes cons to going through that program. And Logan is really cheap for living expenses. I had a 2bd 1.5ba townhouse with a carport, w/d, dishwasher, little storage unit, and a fireplace for $620/mo. Pullman is much more expensive.

If you got offered a spot in Pullman you can apply for IS after your first year. You can't do that if you go through the Utah program. You pay OOS all 4 years. By the way I saw it, I was OOS everywhere, Nevada doesn't have a school. And it's not that bad for tuition in that regard. And especially if they still do the 8k/year tuition assistance for the OOS Utah students. It made it fairly "cheap" as an OOS.

Logan is beautiful, way more stuff to do outside than Pullman. But not much in the way of bars etc of you're into that.
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Thank you again for your response! I really appreciate it.

I also heard the class at Utah is very small (around only 30 students). I am just trying to figure out if I want to chance it by saying "yes" when I would not get the chance to be part of the applicant pool at WSU. The reason being that I don't know much about the program. Do they interview at UT just like WSU, and is the DVM you receive from WSU? Do they offer the same things like WSU (such as on-site teaching hospital, varied caseload, hands on experience early on)?

If you want to do private messaging I am totally fine with that as well, but figured I would write here since it may benefit other people. Whatever is best for you. Thank you so much again!!
 
Adogloveralways said:
Thank you again for your response! I really appreciate it.

I also heard the class at Utah is very small (around only 30 students). I am just trying to figure out if I want to chance it by saying "yes" when I would not get the chance to be part of the applicant pool at WSU. The reason being that I don't know much about the program. Do they interview at UT just like WSU, and is the DVM you receive from WSU? Do they offer the same things like WSU (such as on-site teaching hospital, varied caseload, hands on experience early on)?

If you want to do private messaging I am totally fine with that as well, but figured I would write here since it may benefit other people. Whatever is best for you. Thank you so much again!!
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It's only 30 students. And marking yes doesn't preclude you from going to Pullman. They put you where they think you will be most successful.

No, there isn't a vth in Logan. The program is only 5 years old. But they have an agriculture program there so I was doing embryo transfers and placing cannulas in my first 2 years on my own time with one of the professors.

It is not a stand alone vet school. So you get your degree from WSU.

I'm not sure what you're asking about varied caseload? You can get a job your first few years but your interactions with live animals is minimal on both campuses.
 
Abnerrs said:
It's only 30 students. And marking yes doesn't preclude you from going to Pullman. They put you where they think you will be most successful.

No, there isn't a vth in Logan. The program is only 5 years old. But they have an agriculture program there so I was doing embryo transfers and placing cannulas in my first 2 years on my own time with one of the professors.

It is not a stand alone vet school. So you get your degree from WSU.

I'm not sure what you're asking about varied caseload? You can get a job your first few years but your interactions with live animals is minimal on both campuses.
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I see.. Ok. What I mean by varied caseload is access to different animals like large animal, exotics, etc.
 
Abnerrs said:
Well you don't REALLY have that at either campus. 4th year is where it's at dude! Lol
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Hmm..from my understanding WSU does have some of that at least and not just dogs and cats that they see..

Oh ya trust me I wish 4th year was here already for me!
 
Adogloveralways said:
Hmm..from my understanding WSU does have some of that at least and not just dogs and cats that they see..

Oh ya trust me I wish 4th year was here already for me!
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You doso SOME animals. For therio and animal handling etc but you get the exact same thing in Logan.

My very best friend is a Pullman student in my class. Trust me, you're over thinking it. Our educations are so so similar. And in some areas mine was better.

The program isn't for everyone though I suppose. But it's less spots you're competing for.
 
Abnerrs said:
You doso SOME animals. For therio and animal handling etc but you get the exact same thing in Logan.

My very best friend is a Pullman student in my class. Trust me, you're over thinking it. Our educations are so so similar. And in some areas mine was better.

The program isn't for everyone though I suppose. But it's less spots you're competing for.
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Thank you for responding! I guess the only concern is the cost of tuition being OOS at Utah. I would have to do a tuition difference. Do you think my chances are higher getting into Utah since maybe less people would want to do a "newer" program?
 
Adogloveralways said:
Thank you for responding! I guess the only concern is the cost of tuition being OOS at Utah. I would have to do a tuition difference. Do you think my chances are higher getting into Utah since maybe less people would want to do a "newer" program?
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Lol yes. I do. But you have to figure out what's right for you. I was willing to go because I figured I was OOS everywhere so meh! And I'm HAPPY to answer your questions!
 
Rwwilliams said:
Because we already have too many vet schools and not enough jobs to accept the exorbitant number of vets opening every year. California already has two vet schools.
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Not enough jobs? That must be referring to any area but large animal and regulatory practice, because there are not enough practitioners to fill those positions.
 
rodeomarie said:
Not enough jobs? That must be referring to any area but large animal and regulatory practice, because there are not enough practitioners to fill those positions.
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I have no doubt in my mind that, in certain areas of the country (especially more rural ones), there is a lack of practitioners willing to fill these jobs. But there's a reason for that. Probably because there just simply isn't enough money in the local economy to support a veterinarian who most likely has six figures worth of educational debt. A lot of potential would-be large animal and equine veterinarians are turning to small animal jobs because those are the ones that will actually pay enough in most places to be able to even begin servicing that level of debt--sad, but true.
 
SandstormDVM said:
I have no doubt in my mind that, in certain areas of the country (especially more rural ones), there is a lack of practitioners willing to fill these jobs. But there's a reason for that. Probably because there just simply isn't enough money in the local economy to support a veterinarian who most likely has six figures worth of educational debt. A lot of potential would-be large animal and equine veterinarians are turning to small animal jobs because those are the ones that will actually pay enough in most places to be able to even begin servicing that level of debt--sad, but true.
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All valid points, but now wth federal loan repayment and forgiveness for rural veterinarians, there's great opportunity just not advertised enough.

Not to mention, the veterinarians I work with in the federal government all make at least 6 figures (no joke) as they are in their 2nd or 3rd year of work (at GS 13-15) and then tack on the loan forgiveness, its a great gig.

Unfortunately, these avenues of forgiveness and repayment arent second language to students or current practitioners. That ultimately goes back to the agencies (state and fed) for marketing better, and schools sharing that information.

So at the end of the day all this combined with the surplus of vets going into small animal, just screams to me "welcome to the real world its competitive and demonstrates the ebs and flows of economy". 🙂
 
rodeomarie said:
All valid points, but now wth federal loan repayment and forgiveness for rural veterinarians, there's great opportunity just not advertised enough.

Not to mention, the veterinarians I work with in the federal government all make at least 6 figures (no joke) as they are in their 2nd or 3rd year of work (at GS 13-15) and then tack on the loan forgiveness, its a great gig.

Unfortunately, these avenues of forgiveness and repayment arent second language to students or current practitioners. That ultimately goes back to the agencies (state and fed) for marketing better, and schools sharing that information.

So at the end of the day all this combined with the surplus of vets going into small animal, just screams to me "welcome to the real world its competitive and demonstrates the ebs and flows of economy". 🙂
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Working in the federal government doesn't equal working farm animal in podunk town in middle of nowhere land where you can expect an annual salary of maybe 40K. Even with the loan repayment incentives, it isn't worth it to many people.

And even if it were some brilliant idea and people were flocking to those jobs, there still is zero need for a new vet school in this country.
 
rodeomarie said:
All valid points, but now wth federal loan repayment and forgiveness for rural veterinarians, there's great opportunity just not advertised enough.

Not to mention, the veterinarians I work with in the federal government all make at least 6 figures (no joke) as they are in their 2nd or 3rd year of work (at GS 13-15) and then tack on the loan forgiveness, its a great gig.

Unfortunately, these avenues of forgiveness and repayment arent second language to students or current practitioners. That ultimately goes back to the agencies (state and fed) for marketing better, and schools sharing that information.

So at the end of the day all this combined with the surplus of vets going into small animal, just screams to me "welcome to the real world its competitive and demonstrates the ebs and flows of economy". 🙂
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Loan forgiveness programs are not always what they seem, and there's no guarantee they'll still be around for people not yet in the workforce. It is also possible to qualify for rural loan forgiveness programs, but not be able to take advantage of them. For instance, see here: http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=18992 It's from 2011, but if you do some googling you'll see similar stories that are more recent.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "surplus of vets going into small animal"- as @SandstormDVM pointed out, a lot of food animal and equine (especially equine) vets are going into small animal because they can't find jobs in their preferred field.

No one is denying that the real world is competitive. If I had to pick, I'd prefer getting into veterinary school being more competitive than the veterinary job market. Vets already have the highest debt:income ratio of any profession, and we don't need unemployment issues on top of that.
 
There was a really good discussion on this topic last fall


****Edit: I just realized . . .
 
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rodeomarie said:
Not enough jobs? That must be referring to any area but large animal and regulatory practice, because there are not enough practitioners to fill those positions.
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You're entirely right that there are rural medicine positions that are not being filled. However, opening a new vet school will not change that.
 
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