New vet schools

[ajs513]

They opened in 2014 so graduated their first class in 2018 iirc. I have no idea what prompts review from the AVMA. All I've heard is that 80%+ is fine but I'm not sure of the specifics.
Also, I remember hearing Ross' NAVLE rates have steadily declined as well.

That’s correct. The AVMA doesn’t particularly care if a school is falling short of others as long as their pass rate is above 80%. If it falls below 80% they’ll calculate a 95% exact binomial confidence interval and reevaluate. If that calculation is below 85% for two successive years that scores are available, they’re placed in probationary accreditation. If it’s below 85% for four years, they’re placed on terminal accreditation. So schools should really try to pump those numbers up.

Again, even though the NAVLE doesn’t determine how good of a doctor you’ll be, if the majority of schools have pass rates in the high 90’s and a school or two have pass rates in the low 80’s, that should raise some red flags, right?

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[ziggyandjazzy]

To your second comment, as someone from Ross, this is already happening. I went in with less that stellar stats ( 2.78 VMCAS cumulative gpa but 3.7 last 45 and good GRE scores). I knew ross was taking a chance on me and it was the only chance I had so I felt like I had to take it. I’m actually doing really well, but a lot of students I’ve already seen completely fail out of the school, or fail a course and are held back. It’s really heartbreaking. But just as an aside, I think EVERYONE feels the way you do and the imposter syndrome is very real. Just know that no one has it all figured out, and even the best vet students feel like they aren’t good enough at one point or another.

This is also important.
I haven't seen a lot of data that schools report on the amount of their first year class that actually makes it to graduation, and what % of them make it there in 4 years. This attrition data is available for undergrad schools, so why not vet schools?
If a school continues to accept a large number of students that either don't graduate, or don't do so on time, I feel like this is a red flag. They are accepting people who then cant succeed in their program.
(and I understand these rates will never be 100% for any school, what I think is inherently sketchy is having high numbers of fails or repeats)

 

[zoogrl29]

Despite minnerbelle's comment, I wasn't trying to be snarky. It's a conversation. We are all talking about our concerns with new schools and more seats without other changes. I mean - you don't want to talk about it anymore? Do you see where we're all coming from? Or, does it seem like we're all still just a bunch of bullies?

Maybe I need a different avatar lol

I mean, you were being snarky, but why would we interject on you all talking about license stuff? That all the last like 50 messages were about?


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[KCgophervet]

Lab animal you say? Feel free to shoot me a message anytime you want to chat lab animal things - third year lab animal resident here and love to talk about it

So "unqualified" was definitely not the best term to use. I appreciate the feedback a lot. I guess when I said "unqualified," I was more referring to schools lowering their standards, but it is clear that AVMA holds high standards for schools that would not allow it to happen. I am hoping to go into lab animal but have recently been talking to my small animal mentor (who owns the clinic and is the only doctor, with only one tech and one receptionist) who wants me to come back and work in the hope I can run it if need be (since none of his kids want to be vets). Obviously that's waaaaay down the line but I have really enjoyed reading this forum and learning about the issues in vetmed, especially regarding small animal medicine. I have learned so much about this world because of you all and I really appreciate you guys continuing to answer all of our questions and share your experience.

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[PippyPony]

Besides what y’all are saying has not changed my mind, I get it sure. You’re older, you have degrees, you have been through it. At the end of the day though, its my life and my ‘mistake’ to make.

(Psst did you check out the "best experiences" thread? )

I think it may also be good to pop over there for some perspective. Most people here aren't telling you not to go to vet school -- obviously we did it/are currently there, even if at some point in our past, some negative nancies suggested we should do something else with our lives. Some of us don't want to do anything else, despite knowing the downsides. And that is ok, because we do need vets in the world.

As LIS said, the conversation about new $$$$$$ schools opening up ≠ a commentary on whether you personally should pursue a veterinary career. If anything, I would say people here are simply worried on your behalf about what these schools could mean for the future happiness of applicants like yourself. Like, this current situation is taking your excitement over this career and preying on it, potentially setting you+your peers up to be terribly let down years later. That is what people are upset about, not the fact that you want to be a vet. In an ideal world, we'd like you to go to vet school, learn a lot, have some fun, and come out of the whole experience with a license, a positive outlook, a good job offer, and a reasonable financial future.

 

[battie]

at the end of the day though, its my life and my ‘mistake’ to make.

This is not meant to come across as snarky, or condescending, or anything like that. But this is teenager logic. This is like half the conversations I had with my mother when I was 15. Sure, it's your mistake to make. But why on earth would you purposely want to make a "mistake" that is between a quarter of a million to a half a million dollars in just financial cost without considering all of the opinions out there? Let alone the emotional and mental cost, which is in-of-itself incalculable? My school sent out an anonymous survey via our Wellness Committee due to our increasing awareness of mental health concerns in the profession. A question is directly about suicide ideation. This is a serious consideration and a "cost" of making the "mistake" of going into the veterinary profession. Please do not trivialize what we are saying here.

We are not saying that you should not go to vet school. We are saying that you should consider that there are true problems with opening new schools that extrapolate on deep-seeded, serious problems in the profession. Our problem as a whole is not pre-vet students. Our problem is the predatory nature that these universities are using to justify new schools or expanded classes that are not necessary, and are in fact detrimental to the profession.

That’s correct. The AVMA doesn’t particularly care if a school is falling short of others as long as their pass rate is above 80%. If it falls below 80% they’ll calculate a 95% exact binomial confidence interval and reevaluate. If that calculation is below 85% for two successive years that scores are available, they’re placed in probationary accreditation. If it’s below 85% for four years, they’re placed on terminal accreditation. So schools should really try to pump those numbers up.

Again, even though the NAVLE doesn’t determine how good of a doctor you’ll be, if the majority of schools have pass rates in the high 90’s and a school or two have pass rates in the low 80’s, that should raise some red flags, right?

Just quoting you to tell you that you're such a vet school nerd now with all this accreditation stuff and I love it.

I haven't seen a lot of data that schools report on the amount of their first year class that actually makes it to graduation, and what % of them make it there in 4 years. This attrition data is available for undergrad schools, so why not vet schools?
If a school continues to accept a large number of students that either don't graduate, or don't do so on time, I feel like this is a red flag. They are accepting people who then cant succeed in their program.

I'd also be interested in this data. I know for our school, the "fail out entirely due to grades" is 0.18%. The "pass in 4 years" not counting DVM/PhD students is 97.8%. And the "Pass in 5 years" is 2.39%. That's including only 2019, 2020, 2021, and 2022 cause I only know the numbers for those classes in regards to students dropping a class due to grades, health, or personal issues for those 4 classes. That's with the caveat that everyone in 2020, 2021, and 2022 actually all do graduate when the time comes. I will say of the 2.4% of us who won't be graduating on time, only 4 of those people actually dropped a class due to grades. The majority were because of health or personal issues outside of school that needed more attention.

Now how that extrapolates to other schools? No idea. Our grading system is so weird compared to everyone else that it's hard to say how we actually compare to other schools.

but why would we interject on you all talking about license stuff?

You're always welcome to interject in the pre-vet forums. We're not like pre-allo where we need to stay on track all the time. If anything, the licensing stuff was a branching topic from the original topic. Anyone is welcome at any time to bring it back to focus

 

[PippyPony]

We're not like pre-allo where we need to stay on track all the time.

...can attest. I would not have survived on this forum if we got booted for going off on tangents

Spoiler: My inner - and outer - monologue, all the time

 

[amwildlife]

(Psst did you check out the "best experiences" thread? )

I think it may also be good to pop over there for some perspective. Most people here aren't telling you not to go to vet school -- obviously we did it/are currently there, even if at some point in our past, some negative nancies suggested we should do something else with our lives. Some of us don't want to do anything else, despite knowing the downsides. And that is ok, because we do need vets in the world.

As LIS said, the conversation about new $$$$$$ schools opening up ≠ a commentary on whether you personally should pursue a veterinary career. If anything, I would say people here are simply worried on your behalf about what these schools could mean for the future happiness of applicants like yourself. Like, this current situation is taking your excitement over this career and preying on it, potentially setting you+your peers up to be terribly let down years later. That is what people are upset about, not the fact that you want to be a vet. In an ideal world, we'd like you to go to vet school, learn a lot, have some fun, and come out of the whole experience with a license, a positive outlook, a good job offer, and a reasonable financial future.

Im not mad about what yall are saying.

I literally didnt respond all day and then someone had to say something rude about it.
I do not think anyone here is “out right” telling me not to go to school.
In fact, this conversation is not something i need to even be apart of till i get accepted. I stopped replying for a reason cause i didn’t see this thread helping me personally.



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[zoogrl29]

Nothing to do with any of this. So I think I have ptsd from working at a clinic where a dog died during a dental due to a tech pop-off valve error (I think because no one ever talked about it again). My dog was spayed today and I’m laying here thinking about that poor dead bloated bulldog and all the things that could’ve gone wrong today. Now she’s vomiting. In f’ing Harrogate TN. I hate this place and it’s 1 hour 40 min drive to civilization. Rant over.

Definitely SQUIRREL!


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[PippyPony]

Nothing to do with any of this. So I think I have ptsd from working at a clinic where a dog died during a dental due to a tech pop-off valve error (I think because no one ever talked about it again). My dog was spayed today and I’m laying here thinking about that poor dead bloated bulldog and all the things that could’ve gone wrong today. Now she’s vomiting. In f’ing Harrogate TN. I hate this place and it’s 1 hour 40 min drive to civilization. Rant over.

Definitely SQUIRREL!

...I can't tell if you are joking

 

[twelvetigers]

...I can't tell if you are joking

I don’t think so...

Pop-off valves are scary, zoo. I bet your pup is fine, though - complications are rare. And the small plus to having experienced that is you will NEVER (as a tech, a student, or a vet) forget that damn valve because it’s always in your head.

I like the buttons so that you can easily give breaths without having to close the thing. Plus it’s just easier.

 

[PippyPony]

Seems you're right TT... I hope your dog is ok @zoogrl29

 

[that redhead]

@zoogrl29 hope your pup is doing OK. I did my own dog’s dental this year and I was freaking out internally the whole time! Yet no problem with doing my coworkers pets.

 

[zoogrl29]

She’s ok! After fluids she perked up and is doing great. I’m exhausted. Thanks guys! Sorry for the freak out!


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[alygar]

So pre-vet student here, I have been following this thread and think it's awesome. I love seeing all you veterinarians in discussion and really appreciate your insight on the field.

Somewhat off topic, but your discussion has touched on this and I'd love to hear your thoughts... do you think it is unwise to attend vet school if an individual is guaranteed to take out at least 200k in loans (just to give you an estimate number)? I know this comes down to a personal decision that only I can answer. & I know I could have uprooted my life and moved to a new state and established residency to minimize that, but at this point it's too late. I've been accepted to Penn and am awaiting a few others. Being a vet of course is my dream, but I also know it is not a smart financial decision considering I am OOS everywhere. I approached this process knowing the reality of the debt:income issue in the field and that as much as I may want to, I may not actually be able to attend (although of course that reality is heartbreaking). It seems you are wary of the new schools since they seem predatory/out for profit... but is the cost (and debt) understandable/worth it/manageable coming from a school with a teaching hospital etc? Again, I'm sorry if this is the wrong place to ask, but everyone active in here seems to have a lot of insight.

 

[battie]

do you think it is unwise to attend vet school if an individual is guaranteed to take out at least 200k in loans (just to give you an estimate number)?

As someone who was originally supposed to graduate with 282k (that's everything: tuition, fees, cost of living I took out, interest accrual, etc), yes. My personal cut off was 300k from the beginning because that's the solid, definite point of a 3:1 debt:income ratio. With that being said, it's nearly impossible for an out of state student to graduate with less than 200k.

A lot of schools help subsidize their teaching hospital with student tuition. So it makes more sense that I pay 54k/year than say at *any* of the distribution model schools. Those students actually get tangibly less for their money than I do. So asking why tuition costs the same between the two when one literally doesnt have a 2-4 million dollar black hole sucking up dollars every year is pretty important.

The new schools are predatory because 1) they are taking the same or more money for a "smaller" product because they know students will pay it for a DVM, and 2) they are using the same excuse over and over without actually changing the model.

 

[finnickthedog]

So pre-vet student here, I have been following this thread and think it's awesome. I love seeing all you veterinarians in discussion and really appreciate your insight on the field.

Somewhat off topic, but your discussion has touched on this and I'd love to hear your thoughts... do you think it is unwise to attend vet school if an individual is guaranteed to take out at least 200k in loans (just to give you an estimate number)? I know this comes down to a personal decision that only I can answer. & I know I could have uprooted my life and moved to a new state and established residency to minimize that, but at this point it's too late. I've been accepted to Penn and am awaiting a few others. Being a vet of course is my dream, but I also know it is not a smart financial decision considering I am OOS everywhere. I approached this process knowing the reality of the debt:income issue in the field and that as much as I may want to, I may not actually be able to attend (although of course that reality is heartbreaking). It seems you are wary of the new schools since they seem predatory/out for profit... but is the cost (and debt) understandable/worth it/manageable coming from a school with a teaching hospital etc? Again, I'm sorry if this is the wrong place to ask, but everyone active in here seems to have a lot of insight.

I'm still in school so I may change my opinion when Im in repayment but when I projected my total students loans and used the repayment simulator it seemed like I could do okay on an income based plan and so it felt "worth it" since I couldn't see myself doing anything else. I would recommend looking at a repayment simulator if you're unsure about what kind of situation you'd be looking at. I dont think I would have gone to vet school if the cost had been much higher but I'm definitely going to be over 200k in loans when I graduate.

 

[ajs513]

So pre-vet student here, I have been following this thread and think it's awesome. I love seeing all you veterinarians in discussion and really appreciate your insight on the field.

Somewhat off topic, but your discussion has touched on this and I'd love to hear your thoughts... do you think it is unwise to attend vet school if an individual is guaranteed to take out at least 200k in loans (just to give you an estimate number)? I know this comes down to a personal decision that only I can answer. & I know I could have uprooted my life and moved to a new state and established residency to minimize that, but at this point it's too late. I've been accepted to Penn and am awaiting a few others. Being a vet of course is my dream, but I also know it is not a smart financial decision considering I am OOS everywhere. I approached this process knowing the reality of the debt:income issue in the field and that as much as I may want to, I may not actually be able to attend (although of course that reality is heartbreaking). It seems you are wary of the new schools since they seem predatory/out for profit... but is the cost (and debt) understandable/worth it/manageable coming from a school with a teaching hospital etc? Again, I'm sorry if this is the wrong place to ask, but everyone active in here seems to have a lot of insight.

Not a vet yet. Just a student at Penn. But I’ll tell you, we aren’t over here drinking kool aid making us believe that it’s no big deal that we’re taking on $200k-$400k in loans. There are a lot of factors that go into whether or not it’ll be okay after graduation.

Penn grads like to specialize. I don’t know how it is at other schools because obviously I’m not there. However, a large portion of 4th years here apply to internships and then residencies. Going into a field that will pay you more is something we’re pretty compelled to do since we do have a lot of debt. Again, maybe a ton of people at other schools also apply to internships at residencies, but it seems like the vast majority of students here plan on specializing even as they go through school.

Most penn grads, to my knowledge, end up working in higher cost of living areas. While this obviously means spending more on rent/mortgage, taxes, utilities, necessities, etc., it also means a higher salary. In the Philadelphia area the salaries are a good amount higher for a GP vet than in many other areas of the country. You don’t see many penn grads moving out to Alabama to practice medicine in rural areas. You just have too much debt to be able to do that. I think most vets in general have too much debt to be able to even if they wanted to.

I won’t lie, there are a number of students here who also come from wealth. It’s not most or even a huge number of students, but it seems like it would be more than at other schools. There’s nothing wrong with that, of course, but the choice to come to penn is made a lot easier by having family pay for some or all of your expenses. I’m in less of a position like that, but I was fortunate to have my father pay for my undergraduate tuition and expenses. So while vet school will be way more than undergrad, I won’t have $80,000 of undergraduate loans on top of it.

At the end of day, it’s something you just need to become comfortable with if you’re going to do it. Most penn grads I’ve spoken with are doing just fine. I’ve spoken to a ton about it. There are a few who are struggling a bit, but the majority are alright. If you have the option of going to a cheaper school and you don’t have other factors influencing you to choose Penn, then by all means go to another school. I chose Penn because I’m not a super mentally healthy person. I’ve made great progress over the years but I wouldn’t want to be on my own hundreds or thousands of miles away from my support system. My girlfriend also goes to school in philly and we live together. My mom lives in south philly. My sisters live just outside of Philly. My dad and aunts live over the bridge in New Jersey. I need my family and this was the only way to do that. Everything I like about Penn aside, that was the deciding factor for me.

 

[battie]

I won’t lie, there are a number of students here who also come from wealth. It’s not most or even a huge number of students, but it seems like it would be more than at other schools.

Fun fact: 20% of vet students nationally graduate without debt.

 

[ajs513]

Fun fact: 20% of vet students nationally graduate without debt.

I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if it’s more than that at Penn. Again, nothing wrong with it. It’s just something to consider.

 

[LetItSnow]

Whoever said people wouldn't trust a cheap vet school, I think it might quickly become opposite. So long as the school did their part, I could see the best and brightest applicants choosing the cheap school over their other options, giving them the best of the best in their classes and could easily get the reputation as the best vet school in the US.

I challenge every vet school to try this and see how well it works

Sent from my phone using the mobile app because I bought it and I'm stubborn

Hehe. I can see the logic of that, but ...

... I think that from a practical standpoint, outside of academia (where I have no real idea how things function) it's just overthinking it.

I see a lot of potential clinicians come through our place, both specialty and ER, and nobody really cares where they went to school. It's an item of interest in the "oh hey, maybe they know so 'n so" but beyond that, it never really has any bearing on anything else.

 

[battie]

I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if it’s more than that at Penn. Again, nothing wrong with it. It’s just something to consider.

I wonder if you could go digging for it (if you're interested on that level lol). Our school has a COE visit in April, and the school sent us/posted on our intranet the document they're submitting to show they're following standards. Buried in the document, they had info about indebtedness for our graduates.

 

[LetItSnow]

I believe it is a well-meaning attempt on the part of the seasoned vets to be kind and helpful to those who wish to pursue a vet career. In being blunt, they are trying to spare the bright eyed and bushy tailed new applicants the experience of feeling the disappointment and strain they have experienced out in the field.

No one starts a career like this thinking they're going to want to quit in 10 years.

And, I think a wise pre-vet would take a step back, not take it personally (so many hear it as someone wanting to stomp on their individual dream), and ask "holy cow - why are SO MANY VETS pessimistic about their occupation now that they are out in it?" They should remember that most of those vets were also excited and starry-eyed and dreamed about being a veterinarian.

It's not to say that their pessimism alone should dissuade someone from becoming a veterinarian, because there are plenty of vets who love their career (although I think the percentages skew toward long-established vets). But it would be foolish not to allow it to influence one's consideration about the career.

Nobody gives a pessimistic outlook intending to beat on any particular individual's dream. Nobody is saying "hey amwildife, you shouldn't be a vet." Most of us are just saying "be very, very careful that you think objectively about this and make sure you understand the risks of moving ahead with your professional decision."

And, we all have different levels of pessimism. I love emergency medicine. And I make really good money doing it - easily almost 3x what I was told I'd make out of school (though it took a few years to become efficient enough to do that). But I see a TON of huge red flags coming down the road for vet med and I think if one were to go into it now, planning to graduate in 4 years with $250k+ in debt .... they might really regret that decision.

Best thing to do in vet med is become a vet and marry someone rich so you can practice only where you want as often as you want for the clients you want.

 

[LetItSnow]

A lot has been said while I've been away at a football party that I strongly agree with. This is one I will answer though.

Rather than "how can the new schools be accepted", the question should be "how should the AVMA and COE actually represent their constituents?" The answer to that is, "Listen to us," and what we are saying as paying members of these organizations is, "Help the profession!" Opening new schools or increasing class sizes is not helping; its literally killing us. The COE needs to re-evaluate their standards, and protect the students before, during, and after school.

Problem is, the COE sets standards, but as long as a school meets those standards, they don't have the authority - without risking some sort of antitrust lawsuit - saying "school A meets the standards and gets accreditation, but school B who meets the standards doesn't."

They had their chance to fight back with the requirement for a teaching hospital, but they chickened out. So that standard is gone.

I think if they were to tighten their standards specifically for the purpose of limiting new schools, they may also risk antitrust lawsuits. They would have to make a real solid argument that any changes were strictly for the purpose of ensuring solid medically competent graduates.

 

[dyachei]

So pre-vet student here, I have been following this thread and think it's awesome. I love seeing all you veterinarians in discussion and really appreciate your insight on the field.

Somewhat off topic, but your discussion has touched on this and I'd love to hear your thoughts... do you think it is unwise to attend vet school if an individual is guaranteed to take out at least 200k in loans (just to give you an estimate number)? I know this comes down to a personal decision that only I can answer. & I know I could have uprooted my life and moved to a new state and established residency to minimize that, but at this point it's too late. I've been accepted to Penn and am awaiting a few others. Being a vet of course is my dream, but I also know it is not a smart financial decision considering I am OOS everywhere. I approached this process knowing the reality of the debt:income issue in the field and that as much as I may want to, I may not actually be able to attend (although of course that reality is heartbreaking). It seems you are wary of the new schools since they seem predatory/out for profit... but is the cost (and debt) understandable/worth it/manageable coming from a school with a teaching hospital etc? Again, I'm sorry if this is the wrong place to ask, but everyone active in here seems to have a lot of insight.

Yes. Consider it very carefully. How long do you want to live like a student? How long do you want to have a roommate? I'm not saying it's not doable, but it's a very real problem in the field, even for specialists

And repayment calculators don't always consider the amount of tax you'll be paying on your salary (the amount of take home is different than what you would expect) and they don't always consider the cost of living. While you may be able to find housing for $500/month in a certain area, that doesn't mean you should (in some cases) or that you will when you need it most. So they don't always give you a full picture. Just something to keep in mind

 

[LetItSnow]

So pre-vet student here, I have been following this thread and think it's awesome. I love seeing all you veterinarians in discussion and really appreciate your insight on the field.

Somewhat off topic, but your discussion has touched on this and I'd love to hear your thoughts... do you think it is unwise to attend vet school if an individual is guaranteed to take out at least 200k in loans (just to give you an estimate number)?

Unwise? I'm not sure I'd go quite that far (@DVMDream on the other hand probably will, though I do not wish to put words in her mouth).

I think it comes down to some calculus that only you can figure because you have to consider how badly you want to be a vet, what you consider an acceptable standard of living, and what your future veterinary plans are. If you are absolutely certain you want to be a surgeon, and have the dedication and skill to do it, you probably can pay back those loans without too much work. If you want to be a GP? ........ think real hard. [No, I'm not saying people should inherently specialize. Just that with some specialties, the pay is so much better it makes the financial picture nicer.]

Go use the loan calculators out there (Student Debt Center - VIN though there are others) to consider what your loan repayments will look like.

Make a sample budget so you can figure out what your life will actually look like once you're out in the 'real world'. Decide if that's acceptable to you. Try - as best you can - to be honest. You're going to want vacations. You may want a new car. You will probably want a halfway decent-ish house or townhome or condo or something. Don't just say "sure, I'll live in a $800/mo apartment for a decade."

Do NOT make any plans based on contemporary news articles about loan forgiveness and nonsense like that - for starters, it may (likely?) never come to pass, and it may (likely?) never impact you even if it does. So don't just say "I'ma count on it all being forgiven.

 

[LetItSnow]

I'm still in school so I may change my opinion when Im in repayment but when I projected my total students loans and used the repayment simulator it seemed like I could do okay on an income based plan and so it felt "worth it" since I couldn't see myself doing anything else. I would recommend looking at a repayment simulator if you're unsure about what kind of situation you'd be looking at. I dont think I would have gone to vet school if the cost had been much higher but I'm definitely going to be over 200k in loans when I graduate.

Just keep in mind that programs like IBR and PAYE could go away. As best I know, there's nothing that inherently guarantees them in perpetuity.

Also keep in mind that whatever is forgiven after 20 years is counted as taxable income - it's a biggggg tax bill at the end.

 

[LetItSnow]

Purely hypothetically, I wonder what would happen if the COE adopted a standard that said ".... and on top of all those other accreditation requirements, no school's cost-of-attendance may be more than $XX,XXX/yr to any student, in-state or out-of-state."

Or something like that.

Never happen, but.....

 

[DVMDream]

So pre-vet student here, I have been following this thread and think it's awesome. I love seeing all you veterinarians in discussion and really appreciate your insight on the field.

Somewhat off topic, but your discussion has touched on this and I'd love to hear your thoughts... do you think it is unwise to attend vet school if an individual is guaranteed to take out at least 200k in loans (just to give you an estimate number)? I know this comes down to a personal decision that only I can answer. & I know I could have uprooted my life and moved to a new state and established residency to minimize that, but at this point it's too late. I've been accepted to Penn and am awaiting a few others. Being a vet of course is my dream, but I also know it is not a smart financial decision considering I am OOS everywhere. I approached this process knowing the reality of the debt:income issue in the field and that as much as I may want to, I may not actually be able to attend (although of course that reality is heartbreaking). It seems you are wary of the new schools since they seem predatory/out for profit... but is the cost (and debt) understandable/worth it/manageable coming from a school with a teaching hospital etc? Again, I'm sorry if this is the wrong place to ask, but everyone active in here seems to have a lot of insight.

This is such an incredibly personal decision. I won't say it is necessarily "unwise", I mean at some point you aren't going to have a decision, there will be some amount of debt to go to vet school if you want to be a veterinarian.

I am sitting at around $380k post undergrad and vet school combined. I graduated with $350k. Yes, I am paying on the loans every month, but it doesn't touch the interest, thus the balance is increasing. I can't afford to touch the interest.

Everyone has a different outlook to tackling it. Some have decided to work themselves crazy, live very minimally and attempt to pour every cent possible into the loans to get them paid off. I calculated it would take me the better part of a decade to do that and I would have to work every day, pick up all the relief shifts oh and live at home with my parents.

At some point you have to make the decision if the life sacrifices are worth it to pay off the loan as quickly as possible, or if you are going to take the route of attempting to have some minimal semblance of life, go with income based repayment and attempt to save up for the taxes at the end of the 20-25 years. The only problem with relying on income based repayment is that it is a government offered option and we all know how trustworthy the government is. There is no guarantee the program lasts. Which would put a LOT of people up a **** creek without a paddle.

I decided to attempt to save up for the taxes and go with income based repayment because I was not going to be able to live with my parents for a decade, I was not willing to work every single day for a decade. I knew what my personal limitations were and continuing to move on with life is what kept my emotional well-being more stable. I can honestly say I probably wouldn't still be around if I had decided to attempt to work myself to death in an attempt to pay off that debt as quick as possible.

It is possible to live a somewhat decent life with large debt, but I can say that underlying anxiety that the rug can be ripped out at any point if the government decides to negate IBR is scary. But I know I won't be alone in that boat should that happen.

 

[finnickthedog]

Just keep in mind that programs like IBR and PAYE could go away. As best I know, there's nothing that inherently guarantees them in perpetuity.

Also keep in mind that whatever is forgiven after 20 years is counted as taxable income - it's a biggggg tax bill at the end.

I'm sure they can find a way to take them away no matter what but I'm cautiously hopeful that the fact that the repayment plans being available was part of the statement that I signed when I agreed to take out the loans in the first place, means those options will be available to me even if they end up being taken away for future borrowers. It's definitely a possibility that scares me, but not enough for me to not go.

As for the tax bill, I took the amount I'd need to put away each month for that into account when deciding whether it seemed doable. But yes, a good point to make for anyone else who is looking at a repayment simulator because that part matters too.

 

[DVMDream]

Purely hypothetically, I wonder what would happen if the COE adopted a standard that said ".... and on top of all those other accreditation requirements, no school's cost-of-attendance may be more than $XX,XXX/yr to any student, in-state or out-of-state."

Or something like that.

Never happen, but.....

This would be awesome. Won't happen, but we can dream, right?

 

[ajs513]

@LetItSnow @finnickthedog More speculation on my part because is there any other way? But wouldn’t taking away IBR options be a really really really foolish move on the part of the government? The health of the economy has everything to lose by letting highly educated people go bankrupt. The alternative to IBR for a lot of people seems to be bankruptcy which equals even less money going back to the government. Obviously a lot of what the government decides to do doesn’t actually make sense and isn’t in everyone’s best interest, but if your goal is to make money off of people, you’d try to minimize the incidence of those people not being able to pay you back at all, yea?

 

[DVMDream]

Federal student loan debt can't be discharged in bankruptcy. You're stuck with it.

This isn't entirely true. It can be discharged, but can be hard to get it discharged. You would need to hire an attorney who knows the loopholes to get the debt discharged and that itself is unlikely something most can afford if you are applying for bankruptcy to begin with.

 

[ajs513]

Federal student loan debt can't be discharged in bankruptcy. You're stuck with it.

Mostly yes. But if you can demonstrate that paying them off would cause undue hardship they can be discharged. Not a lawyer or anything, but if you were to use your situation for example, and IBR would go away, I think undue hardship would be provable. If you’re making $13/hr and had to put 80% of your take home salary to loans, that would put you well into poverty. According to the Brunner test, all three points would likely apply. You couldn’t maintain a minimal standard of living, that situation would persist for the foreseeable future, and you made a good faith effort to repay your loan. So by default, bankruptcy doesn’t discharge your student loans. But there are situations where it can.

 

[Georgethecat]

So pre-vet student here, I have been following this thread and think it's awesome. I love seeing all you veterinarians in discussion and really appreciate your insight on the field.

Somewhat off topic, but your discussion has touched on this and I'd love to hear your thoughts... do you think it is unwise to attend vet school if an individual is guaranteed to take out at least 200k in loans (just to give you an estimate number)? I know this comes down to a personal decision that only I can answer. & I know I could have uprooted my life and moved to a new state and established residency to minimize that, but at this point it's too late. I've been accepted to Penn and am awaiting a few others. Being a vet of course is my dream, but I also know it is not a smart financial decision considering I am OOS everywhere. I approached this process knowing the reality of the debt:income issue in the field and that as much as I may want to, I may not actually be able to attend (although of course that reality is heartbreaking). It seems you are wary of the new schools since they seem predatory/out for profit... but is the cost (and debt) understandable/worth it/manageable coming from a school with a teaching hospital etc? Again, I'm sorry if this is the wrong place to ask, but everyone active in here seems to have a lot of insight.

Yes, this is a personal decision for each person. From a practical standpoint, applicants that will be relying on loans for tuition and living expenses should expect anywhere from $171K (including accrued interest) for an IS student at Purdue (just picked a cheap one to use as an example) to $440k for an OOS student at Penn. I haven't fully searched but I am guessing that there is not a single vet school that would come under $200k COA for an OOS. There are only a couple of IS options that come in under $200k. Each person is in a different position in terms of possible support from parents or SO that might reduce the amount needed in loans.

Others can chime in that have more knowledge on the newer schools that are opening, but I don't think that they are realistically any cheaper than existing schools and that's part of the frustration. Why should a school without a teaching hospital cost the same or more than one that does???

 

[battie]

But yes, a good point to make for anyone else who is looking at a repayment simulator because that part matters too.

This needs to be shouted from the rooftops everytime this comes up. One of my biggest pet peeves is when people say, "I'm just going to be in debt for the rest of my life." Sure, if you take a loan out at the end of the 20-25 years to pay for the tax bomb. But the "student loan" is not life long and pre-vets dont seem to understand that.

 

[ajs513]

Others can chime in that have more knowledge on the newer schools that are opening, but I don't think that they are realistically any cheaper than existing schools and that's part of the frustration. Why should a school without a teaching hospital cost the same or more than one that does???

That’s a big part of the concern. Of course no school should be charging so much money, but it’s even more concerning when these schools can’t even come close to justifying the cost. You’re going to create more rural vets to make up for the shortage? By what, charging students $80,000 a year in cost of attendance? Yea good luck with that. It’s an obvious money grab.

 

[Coopah]

Fun fact: 20% of vet students nationally graduate without debt.

Yup it's crazy, at least that amount from my school. There are so many people who go to school and their parents pay for everything. It's incredible. Makes me wonder how that diversity push is going to work when only the wealthy are going to be able to afford to go.

I lucked out. I was also OOS everywhere but saved up enough before school (second career, that's me) to only need to take out tuition and not COL. I also managed (still no idea how) to get into the third cheapest OOS option available because they allow IS tuition after the first year. Thankfully, they give us some money every year to mitigate the fact that this is CA and expensive.

I'm only going to graduate with ~$150k in debt and that includes what's left of my undergraduate debt. I'm very very lucky. But OOS people don't usually get that option. We have to pay up if we want to go to school. @alygar if you ever want to talk my PM box is always open.

 

[Coopah]

This is such an incredibly personal decision. I won't say it is necessarily "unwise", I mean at some point you aren't going to have a decision, there will be some amount of debt to go to vet school if you want to be a veterinarian.

I am sitting at around $380k post undergrad and vet school combined. I graduated with $350k. Yes, I am paying on the loans every month, but it doesn't touch the interest, thus the balance is increasing. I can't afford to touch the interest.

Everyone has a different outlook to tackling it. Some have decided to work themselves crazy, live very minimally and attempt to pour every cent possible into the loans to get them paid off. I calculated it would take me the better part of a decade to do that and I would have to work every day, pick up all the relief shifts oh and live at home with my parents.

At some point you have to make the decision if the life sacrifices are worth it to pay off the loan as quickly as possible, or if you are going to take the route of attempting to have some minimal semblance of life, go with income based repayment and attempt to save up for the taxes at the end of the 20-25 years. The only problem with relying on income based repayment is that it is a government offered option and we all know how trustworthy the government is. There is no guarantee the program lasts. Which would put a LOT of people up a **** creek without a paddle.

I decided to attempt to save up for the taxes and go with income based repayment because I was not going to be able to live with my parents for a decade, I was not willing to work every single day for a decade. I knew what my personal limitations were and continuing to move on with life is what kept my emotional well-being more stable. I can honestly say I probably wouldn't still be around if I had decided to attempt to work myself to death in an attempt to pay off that debt as quick as possible.

It is possible to live a somewhat decent life with large debt, but I can say that underlying anxiety that the rug can be ripped out at any point if the government decides to negate IBR is scary. But I know I won't be alone in that boat should that happen.

As far as the precedent goes, typically these programs might go away, by the people already making payments will be grandfathered in. Not saying they couldn't make a new precedent, but it would be a lot harder to get that passed. It gives me a semblance of hope.

 

[DVMDream]

As far as the precedent goes, typically these programs might go away, by the people already making payments will be grandfathered in. Not saying they couldn't make a new precedent, but it would be a lot harder to get that passed. It gives me a semblance of hope.

There is absolutely nothing out there indicating that people already making payments will be grandfathered in. It is something that has been discussed heavily with the talk of doing away with PSLF, there is no grandfather clause, no guarantee at all for any of these loans. The government really can do whatever they want without consequence. These loans already can compound interest that private loans are mostly banned from doing. There are no rules and no guarantees when it comes to the government and I think that is what people need to keep in mind.

 

[flameshock]

There is absolutely nothing out there indicating that people already making payments will be grandfathered in. It is something that has been discussed heavily with the talk of doing away with PSLF, there is no grandfather clause, no guarantee at all for any of these loans. The government really can do whatever they want without consequence. These loans already can compound interest that private loans are mostly banned from doing. There are no rules and no guarantees when it comes to the government and I think that is what people need to keep in mind.

I haven't looked at the terms of my loan recently in an effort to stage off a panic attack, but I thought the repayment options available when you took out your first federal loan were required to be present as a possible payment option? If I'm wrong in this, please correct.

 

[Coopah]

There is absolutely nothing out there indicating that people already making payments will be grandfathered in. It is something that has been discussed heavily with the talk of doing away with PSLF, there is no grandfather clause, no guarantee at all for any of these loans. The government really can do whatever they want without consequence. These loans already can compound interest that private loans are mostly banned from doing. There are no rules and no guarantees when it comes to the government and I think that is what people need to keep in mind.

There's never been a guarantee for PSLF, but for PAYE or IBR yes there is precedent for that. There are never 100% guarantees but as I said, it gives me hope. You're right though it's definitely something to keep in mind.

 

[DVMDream]

There's never been a guarantee for PSLF, but for PAYE or IBR yes there is precedent for that. There are never 100% guarantees but as I said, it gives me hope. You're right though it's definitely something to keep in mind.

What precedent are you thinking of? They've not stopped these things in the past and then restarted them so I'm confused by what precedent you're looking at?

 

[Coopah]

What precedent are you thinking of? They've not stopped these things in the past and then restarted them so I'm confused by what precedent you're looking at?

On the one hand whenever they've implemented a different repayment plan they've allowed the old borrowers to continue with their plans but also other financial changes that affect the public made by Congress. I'd have to look up specific examples. I had this conversation with a lawyer visiting my school to help explain the legal aspects of vet med.

 

[that redhead]

@alygar Like others have said, it really depends on your personal situation. My own situation was that I came in to vet school with zero debt, finished with $250k total to pay back. My husband and I made some sacrifices during school - he stayed in the US while I was in Canada because he had a good, well-paying job with health insurance and was able to live free in a family friend's basement for 4 years. My parents helped with my COL expenses (relatively low COL where I was compared to home). I worked during summers to make a little extra spending money for things like a new laptop that I needed, etc. Since graduating, my husband supports us financially while my entire paycheck goes to my loans every month. If I hadn't had that fall back, I would have started out new grad life with something like $800 in my pocket each month, which isn't enough to do squat with around here. I would have had to live with my parents, really minimize my spending, maybe pick up extra work, etc. It would not have been worth it for me, personally. Because I had many things in my favor, it has worked out such that my husband and I can still have a comfortable life while I pay that amount back. But we always joke about how rich we'd be without those loans. (And now that kids are in the picture, probably won't see much of an uptake in our disposable income any time soon!)

I think it's easy to look at the future and say, "I'm totally fine with not taking a vacation or buying a new car and having roommates" etc. But that can really wear on you after so many years. Now think about if your car gets totaled or your roommate decides to move out or one of the umpteen other things that can go wrong unexpectedly in life that frugality alone cannot control. You're up a creek without a paddle. Not to say that it cannot be done, but it takes a lot of planning and honest self-reflection.

 

[LetItSnow]

Holy cow, I didn't mean to get everyone on a tangent about whether repayment options will be around in the future. I think the likelihood of them just plain disappearing is very small. My point was just that you have to consider that things can change. I think it's real easy to take on that debt under an assumption that it will all work out, and for many veterinarians currently in the field they are finding that that wasn't a good assumption for one reason or another.

 

[battie]

"I'm totally fine with not taking a vacation or buying a new car and having roommates" etc. But that can really wear on you after so many years.

For the pre-vets around, if you go back into my post history circa 2014-2015ish, maybe even 2016, this was me. I was this person she describes. And now, as a third year, recently engaged vet student, I am no longer this person. When I was single and full of thoughts of just school and my career, I was willing to be a college student for forever and do all the vet med things. Now, I'm so done with school and can't wait to GTFO. I cannot wait to get married and start a family.

2020 Bats is not 2015 Bats by a long-shot. So when consider the debt and what your personal limits are, remember that those limits may change through the application and vet school because you, as a person, will change. That's neither good nor bad; it just is. That doesn't even touch on the things that happen outside your control in the 5 years between applying to vet school and graduating.

 

[twelvetigers]

So, absolute best case scenario here:

I attended a 'cheap' school as an in-state student. Tuition was about $17k/year (of course it increased over the 4 years, but this was the average). I only took loans for the cost of attendance - not food, not rent, not car payments or insurance - literally just the cost to put my ass in that chair and learn whatever I'm supposed to learn to earn that DVM. The only 'extra' was about $2k the first semester to cover the cost of a nice laptop.

My grand total after 4 years (with the interest that accrued during each semester, because yes, that happens) was about $83k. That was what I owed on the day I graduated and started making payments.

I paid off my loans last month - so that's 4 years and 9 months. My amount I owed to pay them off in 2025 was about $950/month. I paid them off in half that time.

I STILL PAID ABOUT $25k IN INTEREST. Meaning, it actually cost me $108k to pay the loans off. That's like attending school for two extra semesters.

Now imagine that interest on $150k. $200k. It gets wild. When your payment is $2000 interest/month, when you need to pay $2001 a month to make a $1 dent in the principle balance of your loan... think on that.

I really really hope debt forgiveness works out okay and doesn't have any weird hangups, because that's the only option a lot of these people have. Even if I sent $1k a month to my best friend, she still wouldn't be able to make a dent. So I might as well buy her a pair of shoes and a bottle of wine and give her a hug instead.

 

[Minnerbelle]

For the pre-vets around, if you go back into my post history circa 2014-2015ish, maybe even 2016, this was me. I was this person she describes. And now, as a third year, recently engaged vet student, I am no longer this person. When I was single and full of thoughts of just school and my career, I was willing to be a college student for forever and do all the vet med things. Now, I'm so done with school and can't wait to GTFO. I cannot wait to get married and start a family.

This is so important and something that isn’t brought up on this forum often. Think really hard about where your life will be in 10 years and what you might want, especially for the 85-90% of us females whose fertility periods are finite. If you don’t ever want kids, good for you. But for everyone else, it’s worth thinking about. For those thinking about going to school now and accumulating a **** ton of debt, it’s so hard to imagine how your life will change over the next 5-10 years which will be just your first 5 or so years in this dream career.

Typically mat leave is unpaid. There are so many veterinarians who go back to work 2-4 weeks after giving birth because they can’t afford to not work. If you work somewhere that is production pay with negative accrual, you not only use up all of your vacation and sick days for that short mat leave... you owe your employer thousands of dollars when you get back. You’ve likely dug yourself in a hole you can’t get out of. So your income drops to just your base salary which is awful for most people who rely on their production bonuses.

And in order to pay your student loans and earn a living, you have to continue working full time at the same grueling pace you thought was fine as a young 20 something year old because again, this is your “dream job.” In order to work your child needs full time daycare which can run $2000-3000 of your after tax cash per month. So now you have your mortgage sized student loan payment (even on PAYE you still need to save for tax at the end), and maybe a real mortgage on a house cause what doctor wants to raise their children in a rented apartment?, AND childcare which is another mortgage payment. Yup three rather large mortgages. And these are all fixed costs that go out the window before you even think about money you need to buy necessities for the month. Imagine trying to juggle all of this and being stressed about not having time to spend with your Kids because you have to work so damn much. But it’s ok right...? It’s your dream job after all. It starts to really suck when this one dream prevents you from having any other dreams, esp when it’s not just you suffering through it anymore. You end up dragging your family through it. And for many people, this dream job turns out to be anything but. When you have to keep working because you have no choice due to finances, it can become really depressing. There’s a reason why suicide rate is so high.

 

[Minnerbelle]

There's never been a guarantee for PSLF, but for PAYE or IBR yes there is precedent for that. There are never 100% guarantees but as I said, it gives me hope. You're right though it's definitely something to keep in mind.

yup I’m pretty sure that the payment plans are written in your master promissory note so those are there to stay. If better plans come up you may also be eligible (which is what happened with PAYE and REPAYE). But PSLF is not a part of that.