New VISA Changes for Australian Interns & Resident medical officers (Abolition of the 457 VISA)

[pitman]

Another question regarding the intern position for graduates

I understand that for international students, some may have to work in relatively rural areas for their intern year. In such case, after intern year and may be RMO year, will we be able to move back to the city side? Even if not, will there be BPT for rural areas? I’m very determined to be a specialist physician for my future career.

Location of work is not a concern for me, as long as I get to enter college for specialty training eventually.

Yes, you can move back after internship or any RMO year.

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[Domperidone]

EDITED. @Meatballhahaha, I've added a few corrections to this. Any further queries feel free to ask. But highly recommend you ask BPTs local to where you are. If you don't have access now - you will on rotation.

Depending on state a BPT1 may be considered a reg or resident. Or even hospital. I double checked with interstate and inter hospital friends on this.

for PR application purposes I don't know. You can choose to fudge those lines if you wish. On the side, its almost a reflection of how quickly things change in this country. I'm a recent grad but my working knowledge of VISAs is already obsolete. I can only quote whatever is recently published out there but I cannot offer practical advice. There certainly maybe further changes by the time you grad. Best thing to do is ask the hospital that hires you or the year above yours for the most recent info

In practicality, it doesn't go intern --> reg under the BPT stream. you may not understand that now so early in your career, you may after rotations and you certainly will as an intern. I had very little concept of post grad training in my preclinical yrs.

it is also why savvy pgy2s can go into bpt1, because under some state or hospital programs, it is a primarily resident yr which may have teeny pockets of junior regging during periods of workforce gaps. Highly dependent on what is available local to you. So ask the BPTs you shadow in the clinical years.

obviously there are other requirements, like your hospital must have a recognized BPT supervisor to offer their approval. many states and hospitals approach the finer details differently. If your rural hospital doesnt have one, you have to wait to transfer to a larger one that does the following year.

you're 2nd year, many preclinicals change their minds on starting rotations. while it's great you've thought of this early, wait until you've done some rotations too. ask the IM residents and registrars looking after you for advice, which should be much more catered to your situation. it never hurts to think early but don't get too lost in presumptions before you've experienced the real thing. these are important questions you have considered but it's better to ask IM trainees or BPTs surrounding when you get to rotations too. some hospitals are better than others for BPT training, again its what you find out from other students and residents/regs local to you.

as for moving back to city...
depends on state. it can be hard. not impossible. it may require persistence in that you may only be able to find a spot after or outside the match when people drop out of initial offers for various reasons.

ideally.. in your situation,
find a large enough rural or regional hospital that has the rotations or specialties you're looking for. so if you cannot return to a city you can at least expect some exposure or training in what you want.

 

[pitman]

Want to reinforce Dom's last bit there...in Qld, most CMI spots (federally subsidized internship spots, with the return-of-service requirement) are indeed in regional centres, other states not so much. So if you don't get a job via the normal ballot and must rely on CMI (which should be assumed, in not just to be sufficiently prepared for the possibility) then do what you can to maneuver there (e.g., states still determine who fills their own CMI spots).

 

[retiltxet]

Something else to be said about CMI hospitals. If possible choose regional public hospitals that do CMI and resist the temptation to stay in the city and do private CMI. It's only 1 year.
Also, working in a regional facility automatically fulfills your requirement to work in a RA2-5 return of service.

On top of that you'll be sent rural anyways even if you do stay in the city for at least a term with most of the private hospitals.

Another benefit is you wont be eligible for salary packaging with a FBT exemption if you work for a private facility.

The interns I speak with who are at private city facilities consistently report a poorer experience, and basically do glorified ward call. There are some consultants in the private hospitals who will say "I don't work with interns".

 

[Domperidone]

Something else to be said about CMI hospitals. If possible choose regional public hospitals that do CMI and resist the temptation to stay in the city and do private CMI. It's only 1 year.
Also, working in a regional facility automatically fulfills your requirement to work in a RA2-5 return of service.

On top of that you'll be sent rural anyways even if you do stay in the city for at least a term with most of the private hospitals.

Another benefit is you wont be eligible for salary packaging with a FBT exemption if you work for a private facility.

The interns I speak with who are at private city facilities consistently report a poorer experience, and basically do glorified ward call. There are some consultants in the private hospitals who will say "I don't work with interns".

I wouldn't specifically call out or be against the "city" CMI. I'd be careful on this one, because it does come down to personal preference and requisites. The interns you happen to speak with may not like their experience but I wouldn't extrapolate it to all 60-80 of them.

Nor are any of the 'city' interns allowed to spend the full year at a private hospital in the city, it's two rotations at most, the rest of the year they are sent out to [correction] regional, rural and remote hospitals all over QLD (both public and private) and to Northern Territories in Alice Springs. Some people like this, the trips outside of Brisbane include accommodation and airfare (even for NT). It offers varied exposure in terms of choosing hospitals for the following year. It has to be said, if you happen to hate the hospital you end up with, at least in this program, you're only stuck there for 2-3 months before you're moved somewhere else. For obvious reasons, it will not everyone's cup of tea.

There's only one such "city" private program via Ramsay Health, the flagship hospital being Greenslopes Private in Brisbane. with very limited rotations to North Shore Private in Sydney if you request it (a much small private hospital). Again - have a care with being critical over a hospital you haven't rotated through, when it's anecdotal. I could just easily refute your claim with, well my friends who are interns or ex-interns loved their time at Greenslopes. I wouldn't be lying on this either.

Greenslopes is a very large private hospital with consultants that are half public (at the large tertiary hospitals) with registrars that rotate through public and private as well. A few consultants are private only. Regardless, you cannot work on a team without consultants, while there are some consultant who do not have registrars & residents, the large majority do. As an intern you will always have an accredited registrar with public hospital experience.

Yes there is a limit to what Greenslopes can offer.
But in a sense, it is no different to the limitations on you at a rural hospital if :
1) you want to do a career that is not aligned with rural medicine, such as subspecialty training,
2) if you simply want to live in the city.

Most RMOs do leave Greenslopes for public hospitals after 1-3 years, but you can stay there for years if you wanted. It is not ideal to stay if you're wanting to progress in hospital-based medicine. However, if you're a city person, at least with being a Greenslopes intern, you're at least able to more confidently remain relatively "based" in a city (which is Brisbane). Residents same interns are moved all over the state if you choose to stay, again, few rotations max per year at Greenslopes in Brisbane. Then when you're able to, move on to whatever hospital you want after.

If you're stuck rural and unable to match the following year in a city, you're stuck rural. Unless you find something outside the match later - but you have to be proactive about this. (with the exception of Brisbane - it is a strange place with regards to the match compared to..the rest of the country).

You can also get on BPT at Greenslopes - there is a BPT supervisor there who can put you on. It also has all the medical subspecialties you can rotate through as an intern or resident. They tend to be very loyal to their interns and give you the rotations you want the following year (which will not happen at most Brisbane hospitals I'm afraid - rural QLD yes, because they are always desperate to keep their residents).

Is the exposure similar to a public tertiary internship? No, you wouldn't be worked as hard or have as much independence in general, but it really depends on the team you're on. Some people like the idea of a more gentle introduction to internship, those with families or want more lifestyle balance may be more attracted to this. That said, there are definitely busy as well as cruisey teams at that particular hospital, and teams where it's just an intern a reg and 20-30 patients, and 5-6 different consultants. At least the privates pay overtime.

Ward call is variable at Greenslopes. It used to be that the interns did not have to do evening "ward call" or weekends. Now they do but they're always paired with a resident. If you're lucky, the resident holds the phone and does everything for you - baby's you the whole way, but you have to consider that it puts a huge strain on that resident who is then solo'ing the wards on their own. Ward call is strange at Greenslopes, in the sense that the 2 residents (or resident and intern) cover the entire hospital (med/rehab/surg - everything except CCU/ICU/ED). There is a med reg that is on until late in the evening. Most other hospitals have multiple residents and interns cover either surg or med or divided by what type of team they happen to be on during the day. Night shift involves a single RMO to cover the entire hospital (PGY2 and above), I've had friends who cried on this shift.

ROS on CMI - you have a period of 5 years to fulfill it. If you're a rush to do it in a year, you can. But you don't have to. If you're looking to match in a city after internship - many public tertiary hospitals actually have the option of sending you out to sister rural hospitals. Not all, but some, it really depends and you probably should ask before you submit applications.

If you wanted rural, and you end up with "greenslopes" by default (no rural hospital would take you) - you can ask greenslopes to send you strictly rural and regional too, and they will do so. The QLD/NT CMI hospitals are interconnected, and they regularly send out so-called Greenslopes interns to Alice Springs, Mackay, Townsville and Bundaberg. There is the option of public or private rural at most of those sites.

Anyway, different strokes for different folks.
Be very careful about how you make blanket statements which are anecdotal. For some, rural hospitals are the obvious, most suitable choice. for others, it is not, and Greenslopes 2/5 rotations is at least another pathway. Most CMI interns will end up at Greenslopes or the "Greenslopes/Ramsay Health" program regardless of whatever their initial preference was. If you cannot match at a public metro tertiary site, those are your only options.

 

[pitman]

I lucked out being at a ~300bed regional hospital that's within 30mins of Brisbane and gave me a term on Thursday Island (the main Torres Strait Island) -- serious independence with backup when needed, particularly when alone in ED at night (w/ consultant housing 50m away) -- and then when I absolutely loved that, gave me anaesthetics and paeds (already had O&G) as a JHO so that I could then do back-to-back rural terms where I was the only doc at three different hospitals 'but' learned more than I have anywhere else, before or since.

These days, from what I hear, you can no longer be alone rural as a JHO in Qld. And domestic kids on the Rural Generalist Pathway tend to get first dibs on the more competitive core pre-GP terms (O&G, anaesthetics, and sometimes paeds), which can be a BIG bottleneck headache depending on the hospital (and traditionally a worse problem in public metro hospitals).

So with internship no longer all-but-guaranteed for intl's, in *hindsight*, today I would be calling any metro/near-metro/regional CMI hospitals to see what sorts of relatively-independent rural placements I could get, and whether they'd give me some of them pre-GP terms if I were to stay on as a JHO. I'd imagine that would even be a selling point with some of them come CMI interview time. For you, as for me, the balance could be ideal, and it might these days be even easier to achieve in the private system. Dunno. But I tend to believe that people create their own opportunities when genuinely interested in them.

Anywho, not specific to what the OP was asking since interested in BPT, but something to consider for anyone who seeks general/procedural skills and independent learning.

 

[Domperidone]

Edited. :S wrote in a haste and while at work (it was a quiet shift I swear)...which I should never do. What invariably happens is that my posts come off stronger than actually intended and completely jumbled.

As a reflection, eventually people do end up where they need to be. And that's something very commonly said by the med schools too. It's very true to me now, looking back. Cumulative experiences make you who you were meant to be. even the very random medical things will be useful some day in a medical career.

For so many students, it wasn't always reassuring, in that many are always in such a hurry so to speak. The more junior the student, the more they seem to ask how do I get there sooner? Very generally speaking. Especially North American background students used to early streaming. Not all want to hear that things take time, like, what do you mean there's house officer years? And that you may have to rotate a few years and at various sites before you get on the program you want. As an RMO, I almost feel like things are going to quickly sometimes. Like somehow the opposite has become true. It's now too fast, instead of not fast enough. That's occurred to me more, as fresh interns are about to start or are starting their internship.

Just as a reflection. Overall in these threads.
There was a lot of really great work that was done in promoting the rural hospitals (by AMSA, the med socs etc) and building stronger relationships with them. I was part of that bandwagon for a small fraction of time. Later on, seeing some of the outcomes I came to wonder if I had always done the right thing by them all - as in all the students as a target audience. I've seen happy ex-interns staying rural or taking their time to figure things out. But I've also seen the flip side. And as a result, felt a lot of guilt with that. Like what have I actually done?

As an addit about Ramsay Health and the mixed city/rural internships.
They take the bulk of the CMI interns each year. There would be jobless interns without this particular program. Hospitals have to actively volunteer to take CMI interns and have capacity to train them, and Ramsay Health (based at Greenslopes) is one of the few that does. It's the only one that takes more than 10 or 12 per year. So, unfortunately, for many final year students, it may actually be their only option. I shouldn't really say unfortunately, again it's a decent 'education' enough and they allow you to do only rural if you wanted. For others, it still stands as 'better' for their interests and arguably, perhaps best for rural spots to go to people genuinely interested in rural medicine or open to it. Rather than..I'll do it a year because I have to.

 

[retiltxet]

These days, from what I hear, you can no longer be alone rural as a JHO in Qld. And domestic kids on the Rural Generalist Pathway tend to get first dibs on the more competitive core pre-GP terms (O&G, anaesthetics, and sometimes paeds), which can be a BIG bottleneck headache depending on the hospital (and traditionally a worse problem in public metro hospitals)

They don't hire you as a JHO in a lot of rural places PGY2 in QLD, they hire them straight to PHO as PGY2.

In addition, as far as moving back to the city from regional or rural, I can almost guarantee that if you want a spot you will find a spot somewhere. It might not be what you want, but you will find a spot. RMO jobs are a dime a dozen and no one I know has had problems going back to the city.

 

[Domperidone]

In addition, as far as moving back to the city from regional or rural, I can almost guarantee that if you want a spot you will find a spot somewhere. It might not be what you want, but you will find a spot. RMO jobs are a dime a dozen and no one I know has had problems going back to the city.

Again I can easily refute your claim by saying well not everyone I know was lucky. Its all anecdotal anyway. Depends on strategy, what city they aimed for and what state. The whole country is not QLD, just in general..the NSW guys seem to think the rest of Australia runs like NSW, same with VIC. I rather give up on this. It's no one's fault, just that Australia is not very unified in how it structures post-grad training.

Let me rephrase this. Hmm.
Not getting precisely the rotations one wants can be disappointing and serious to some. Is it the end of the world, no. I've said it before, RMOs may match at hospital within city limits but they may get only rotations of no interest or use to their progression. That's hard and I don't want to detract from this. I mean, how would you feel if you got 3 ED rotations and 2 paeds and actually you want to be a geriatrician or surgeon? Or the flip side, all you got was 12 months of rehab and geri medicine and you actually want to be a pathologist? I've changed the details but its happened to people I've known. For a BPT-to-be for example, to have absolutely no medical terms, means they cannot get on or cannot have their year certified and finish their training sooner. These things don't matter if you don't know what you want, and don't mind that flexibility. It can for those who do. It can also drag if you're repetitively doing something you've no interest in. People have different preferences.

I think it's great if it has worked out for all your mates, it just doesn't always is my point, not for everyone in the entirety of Australia. I would never assume everyone is the same in their interests, or their response to their lot in life. Some people take it pretty hard.

Thus, I couldn't so casually say to all go rural and it will eventually work out without actually telling them the possibilities of what happens after intern year and how to explore their options. Do they not deserve more concrete advising than that? (It's a rhetorical question - but that why I take so much time in these responses)

For such things like Neurosurgery or Interventional Cardiology very few hospitals offer rotations in these areas. It will take time to get there. It means it's an extra long road which while doesn't hurt you, doesn't have to be that long actually. There are simple ways to shave off a few steps. In knowing that, I wouldn't hold back from warning them ahead of time to take a long view or have strategies to make it easier for them or mitigate risk.

Would that every international student wanted rural medicine, it would be better for this country and the bottle necks, but not everyone does and I accept that. Some are very savvy in their approach, others aren't and don't care either. The outcomes can vary as a result, like a stack of dominoes.

Like I said before how the match works in Brisbane is not how it works in the rest of the country. For one, there's no interviews in QLD. A few hospitals in QLD don't actually read CVs, look at LORs or contact your referees. For someone coming from a different state - that can be mind blowing.

 

[Domperidone]

I was the only doc at three different hospitals 'but' learned more than I have anywhere else, before or since.

These days, from what I hear, you can no longer be alone rural as a JHO in Qld. And domestic kids on the Rural Generalist Pathway tend to get first dibs on the more competitive core pre-GP terms (O&G, anaesthetics, and sometimes paeds), which can be a BIG bottleneck headache depending on the hospital (and traditionally a worse problem in public metro hospitals).

The rural relieving term?
Any good stories ?

On the other hand, it's kind of nice to hear that the rural generalist pathway is sorta flourishing to the point of being competitive. I rotated through a small hospital that was primarily IMG and couldn't even retain them. The turnover of GPs in the area (also primarily IMG) did my head in as well. It was just demoralizing.

 

[pitman]

They don't hire you as a JHO in a lot of rural places PGY2 in QLD, they hire them straight to PHO as PGY2.

Dude, I was referring to regional hospitals that second their JHOs out rural, not rural hospitals. Either way, you get the idea -- 2nd year out, there used to be a LOT of forced independence due to rural relieving secondments.

 

[pitman]

The rural relieving term?
Any good stories ?

Of course. Like the admin guy who was being investigated by the police for paedophilia/assault and wanted his hospital medical files without a warrant; a 92yo SBO that no one in tertiary surgery wanted that I had to fix (medically) after her BS completely ceased (trick: gastrograffin), after I discovered multiple times in same patient that digoxin does actually work as an anti-arrythmiac; the deep knee abscess that I had to 'surgically' drain with just a nurse and morphine/midaz as anaesthetic (didn't know how to do regional blocks then)...but I'll save details for another day.

 

[Meatballhahaha]

I have recently heard from some seniors that graduates can only apply EITHER the public hospital for internship OR CMI (private hospital internship from ) which means if I apply public hospital for internship and if I don't get any (even rural), I will have no internship at all because I can't fall back to CMI. Can Pitman or domperidone advise on this information?

 

[retiltxet]

CMI is intended for people who have not received offers from the public system. The public system is the first port-of-call and CMI is designed to mop-up those who did not receive offers. At this point in time CMI hasn't been reconfirmed for 2019 anyways so no sense in fretting about it. I have no idea when you're applying for internship, but by that time (even if it's next year's round) things will probably have changed again.

 

[pitman]

I don't have any reason to think CMI would be cancelled this year or anytime in the near future. That would be an easily avoidable (cheap @ $10mill) political ****storm. Could happen, as anything, but I think very unlikely.

I think the Chinese* whispers have gotten the rules wrong -- probably referring to the rule that if you've ACCEPTED an internship here, then you can't apply for CMI. These days of course, why would you.

As long as I've known, CMI applications followed the state Ballots precisely because the program 'mopped up' (to borrow retiltxet's metaphor) those int'l students who did not get a public hospital appointment through the Ballot. I don't think the rules have changed in the past year.

Having said that, it is possible that when you apply for CMI (after having failed at getting a spot through the Ballot), the Feds are saying that you need to withdraw your name from contention for a public spot AT THAT TIME (spots open up publicly after the Ballot closes for a variety of reasons). Even if that were the case, I'd ignore such a request (not taking your name OFF multiple state lists that you're already on can IMO be argued as a simple oversight, and I can't see a public hospital later rejecting an offer made to you because they found out that you had applied for CMI).

But the answer is probably in here:
Department of Health | Commonwealth Medical Internships Programme Guidelines

...give a read and report back.

* If you're outraged over this old saying, piss off.

 

[Domperidone]

re: "pissing off."

sigh. can we keep things professional please? Or I'm just going to stop responding to things like these altogether. As I don't wish to come on to feel either attacked, that my input has no value/I'm unwelcome or annoyed. I do have a job, a family and post grad exams to study for and this isnt worth it for me if things are going to get catty. Especially as I come voluntarily out of my own time. this is the last time I post on this. next time it goes to my ignore. And I focus only on OPs.

 

[Domperidone]

I have recently heard from some seniors that graduates can only apply EITHER the public hospital for internship OR CMI (private hospital internship from ) which means if I apply public hospital for internship and if I don't get any (even rural), I will have no internship at all because I can't fall back to CMI. Can Pitman or domperidone advise on this information?

What ret said as above.
I would highly suggest following either AMSA on facebook (they directly liaise with the feds each yr) or the new grads and final yrs from your school. The most up to date info comes from there.

 

[pitman]

...and final yrs from your school.

Dude, that's where he's hearing the whispers that led him here.

I'd say, take the rumour mill with a grain of salt. Go with the horse's* mouth (the govt's own rules on their website which applied just a couple months ago), but email/call said horse if you're concerned there may have been changes (though changes so soon after the last campaign would be very odd indeed). Supplement with 1st hand experiential knowledge to understand any recent (yet still past) anecdotes that may have veered from the rules. Resolve contradictions by researching them, including coming here for a full range of advice, sources, and opinion, or to your med soc's int'l-student rep or AMSA, but I'd be very careful with the latter -- just last year I was directly involved with their Int'l Students Committee's rear-guard campaign for continued support of int'l students, when AMSA's own Exec internally lobbied for, and came close to passing at Council, a resolution retracting its decade-old position of support -- not inspiring a lot of faith IMO, and I certiainly wouldn't want to give the wrong quasi-influential politico an excuse for 'getting involved'.

sigh. can we keep things professional please?...

Was that directed at me? So there's no room for humour (specifically, flippant satire) any more. Hm. Ignore what you will.

 

[Domperidone]

maybe I'll feel better after I'm rostered off 8 days straight and 32 hrs this weekend alone. but I have zero tolerance if I start to detect any manner of disrepect from anyone. I have better things to do with my time.

 

[pitman]

I think that was my point just the other day, Dom...though my focus is usually on the undermining of specific people (and other forms of ad hominem).

 

[Domperidone]

I think that was my point just the other day, Dom...though my focus is usually on the undermining of specific people (and other forms of ad hominem).

I think you'll have to spell this out for me. I really have no idea where this is going (and my apologies, I've no interest or time to ponder on your prior responses - not meaning to offend, mind you. But again, if I have limited time to spare for SDN, I'm going to devote it to providing info and guidance to those who require it. It is not personal).

Please PM if you wish to continue this. As I can see this becoming a conversation that really only involves ourselves. Moreover, I don't really see carrying this on as either beneficial or on the point for other responders in here.

Addit - I am no longer going to respond on this particular topic in thread or anywhere else in forum. PM only for reasons as listed above.

 

[sean80439]

 

[Domperidone]

Thanks Sean!

 

[piefondler]

Sean, do you know which TSS they are referring to? My understanding is that there is a short term and medium term TSS and interns are only eligible for the short term?

 

[sean80439]

Sean, do you know which TSS they are referring to? My understanding is that there is a short term and medium term TSS and interns are only eligible for the short term?

Not sure exactly - but I think the pathway is either direct TSS to PR, or 485 to TSS to PR.
Also I believe that if you do 2 years on the 485, you can apply as medical practitioner NEC for as the medium-long term which you can apply for PR for after 3 years on TSS.

 

[pitman]

This is a step in the right direction, is consistent with what Immigration had been telling the ISN last year (basically, that docs were being inadvertently caught up in the mess and they would try to minimize the hurdles for them). So somewhat good news. Still, the ISN should be posting what they think are viable routes through to PR.

1) So now docs can go straight onto the TSS, assuming the ?hospital sponsors them and are willing to pay the visa fee, work for three years and then apply for PR. Pretty much means apply to specialty college of choice on time or maybe a year later even if PR is required (noting that there are some ways around the AGPT PR requirement as per earlier in the thread). But it's an unknown how willing hospitals and/or ?states would be willing to pay the fees for sponsorship.

2) Alternatively, if no sponsorship, can still do the 485 for two years as was outlined above as backup plan. But it's unclear and could be the case that the time on the 485 would not itself be a route to PR, and time on it not count towards the three years required on the TSS before applying for PR. This route would at least buy time to look for a willing sponsor before either doing #1 or #3.

3) Then there's retiltxet's 187/189 visa route, at least for when you become a registrar, or if the loopholes haven't been closed, then potentially can apply anytime after full registration. I'm not up with this and am not sure if this route would be a path to PR though -- will default to retiltxet

Not ideal, but not looking too shabby IMO. Anyone want to add clarity to any of those or point out what I've missed?

 

[Domperidone]

ISN have actually outlined it for students since last year. They do actually have a pretty good turn around time with updates for changes as they happen. It's not bad at all given the tiny team of students they are with little training or guidance. I feel sorry for them given the vast responsibility they have to shoulder, completely voluntarily. It can be very lonely. Having known past years where there was no ISN at all or chairs who solely used it for CV padding (as in they posted nothing and did no policy) - any effort towards a direction means something. The vast majority of international students often ask for assistance or demand action, but make no actual effort themselves. Or have no time - given how demanding board exams are. International student attendance at AMSA councils is often less than 1%.

Even then, generally final year students are on top of their game on this (like Sean). They have to be. Their futures are directly tied up in having the most relevant and up to date info. Like other grads, I get rustier as it's no longer the same situation for me - I have other worries.

For premeds, piefondler - you've PM'd me on this. I can sense the anxiety. I'll say it again - it can help to learn to get familiar with things now. But it's hard in your situation without much context. Things are likely to change in 4 yrs time by the time you graduate. not just VISAs, how we do residency etc. intern priority grps just changed in QLD. I would never hold onto any change as concrete or static, the landscape is a dynamic one. So you either have to let go and accept risk - be humble about it and unentitled. Maybe today things are X. In a year or two after you start they'll be in flux again. Or have a mindset where you almost don't care - go with the flow (if you are anxious - this isn't likely to be you).

As an Addit - TSS is still under negotiation. I'd wait for final clarifications into policy. I feel like we just confuse premeds more otherwise. We would be speculating.

 

[sean80439]

Yeah, it really comes down to either just rolling the dice or not. In the past there hasn't been an issue, but the landscape is always changing. What I know for this year coming will likely not change, so I feel pretty good with my current plan. That plan has been evolving since I started 4 years ago though, and it wasn't until this year that I decided to return. My plan until recently was always to practice in the US. My priorities shifted, and that was personal to me. Everyone will have to make that same decision depending on the program they are in.

 

[piefondler]

ISN have actually outlined it for students since last year. They do actually have a pretty good turn around time with updates for changes as they happen. It's not bad at all given the tiny team of students they are with little training or guidance. I feel sorry for them given the vast responsibility they have to shoulder, completely voluntarily. It can be very lonely. Having known past years where there was no ISN at all or chairs who solely used it for CV padding (as in they posted nothing and did no policy) - any effort towards a direction means something. The vast majority of international students often ask for assistance or demand action, but make no actual effort themselves. Or have no time - given how demanding board exams are. International student attendance at AMSA councils is often less than 1%.

Even then, generally final year students are on top of their game on this (like Sean). They have to be. Their futures are directly tied up in having the most relevant and up to date info. Like other grads, I get rustier as it's no longer the same situation for me - I have other worries.

For premeds, piefondler - you've PM'd me on this. I can sense the anxiety. I'll say it again - it can help to learn to get familiar with things now. But it's hard in your situation without much context. Things are likely to change in 4 yrs time by the time you graduate. not just VISAs, how we do residency etc. intern priority grps just changed in QLD. I would never hold onto any change as concrete or static, the landscape is a dynamic one. So you either have to let go and accept risk - be humble about it and unentitled. Maybe today things are X. In a year or two after you start they'll be in flux again. Or have a mindset where you almost don't care - go with the flow (if you are anxious - this isn't likely to be you).

As an Addit - TSS is still under negotiation. I'd wait for final clarifications into policy. I feel like we just confuse premeds more otherwise. We would be speculating.

Dom thanks for the advice. Been reading this thread since last year. Could you clarify what has changed with Queensland priority

 

[sean80439]

Dom thanks for the advice. Been reading this thread since last year. Could you clarify what has changed with Queensland priority

Applicant groups for intern positions | Queensland Health

 

[pitman]

ISN have actually outlined it for students since last year. They do actually have a pretty good turn around time with updates for changes as they happen. It's not bad at all given the tiny team of students they are with little training or guidance.

Not to toot my own horn, but to clarify a bit since there seems to be a persistent misunderstanding of how these things work -- their team last year (since changed over) included me. The former Chair sought me out as a consultant on recommendation, and we discussed ad nauseum the potential routes to PR and/or specialty, how tactically to fight for them given the politics and how to use (or threaten to use) the media, planned with other ISN reps, and held conference calls with AMSA Exec members (where we picked up a subtle lack of commitment of support -- ISN is really a Council sub-committee, appointed by the Exec, but its Chair must choose whether/when to cowtow to the Exec versus to represent his constituents whenever there are potential conflicts).

I give kudos to him for sticking steadfastly to the interests of those constituents (international students), something rare in most medical politics, and how he proactively prepared against an attempted AMSA coup at one of last year's Council meetings that would have removed support for int'ls -- a proposal organized by an Exec member (with at least tacit support from the rest of the Exec) who had garnered significant support among voting members (med socs) by deceitfully appealing to their base, selfish fears.

During the proposal's debate on the floor, the ISN threw out some killer arguments turning the argument back on those same fears, explaining that ceasing support in light of the proposed visa changes would actually harm *domestic* students' chances at getting their specialty of choice (non-intuitive, but true when you think it through). The Exec proposal was then unanimously shot down, and the coup organizer walked out in disgrace to the sound of mocking cheers.

At any rate, ISN last year brought the visa issues up with Dept of Immigration and several other bodies, including a number of trainee colleges, and continue to make progress in its wider efforts. And as I said, it is heartening to see some of what THEY were being told -- much of it unofficially and equivocally -- by govt bureaucracies, and subsequently reported here and elsewhere.

As a former rep, I recognize how difficult it can be to support your constituents. But doing what is necessary to explain issues, effect their change, and communicate any progress is a mandate that we impose on ourselves when we put our hand up. So yes, I think ISN has recently, probably for the first time, done some excellent collaboration and lobbying. IMO it just should have posted, in the same update, what they think (even if just tentatively) are the viable routes, both to PR and to college training (e.g., ways to get around the AGPT PR requirement, like the RVTS or ACRRM Independent routes, and the sponsorship route we learned about here on SDN, and whether/how states/RVTS are committing to increase support for those routes). Even if simply as a continued effort in their lobbying campaign for the viability of those routes.

International student attendance at AMSA councils is often less than 1%.

I think you mean attendance at conventions, which presence doesn't have much bearing on AMSA politics, which are themselves rather opaque. Observers of Council (or the deliberations of it, consisting of the Executive Committee and the voting and non-voting med soc reps) are fairly rare.

 

[Domperidone]

Not to toot my own horn, but to clarify a bit since there seems to be a persistent misunderstanding of how these things work -- their team last year (since changed over) included me. The former Chair sought me out as a consultant on recommendation, and we discussed ad nauseum the potential routes to PR and/or specialty, how tactically to fight for them given the politics and how to use (or threaten to use) the media, planned with other ISN reps, and held conference calls with AMSA Exec members (where we picked up a subtle lack of commitment of support -- ISN is really a Council sub-committee, appointed by the Exec, but its Chair must choose whether/when to cowtow to the Exec versus to represent his constituents whenever there are potential conflicts).

I give kudos to him for sticking steadfastly to the interests of those constituents (international students), something rare in most medical politics, and how he proactively prepared against an attempted AMSA coup at one of last year's Council meetings that would have removed support for int'ls -- a proposal organized by an Exec member (with at least tacit support from the rest of the Exec) who had garnered significant support among voting members (med socs) by deceitfully appealing to their base, selfish fears.

During the proposal's debate on the floor, the ISN threw out some killer arguments turning the argument back on those same fears, explaining that ceasing support in light of the proposed visa changes would actually harm *domestic* students' chances at getting their specialty of choice (non-intuitive, but true when you think it through). The Exec proposal was then unanimously shot down, and the coup organizer walked out in disgrace to the sound of mocking cheers.

At any rate, ISN last year brought the visa issues up with Dept of Immigration and several other bodies, including a number of trainee colleges, and continue to make progress in its wider efforts. And as I said, it is heartening to see some of what THEY were being told -- much of it unofficially and equivocally -- by govt bureaucracies, and subsequently reported here and elsewhere.

As a former rep, I recognize how difficult it can be to support your constituents. But doing what is necessary to explain issues, effect their change, and communicate any progress is a mandate that we impose on ourselves when we put our hand up. So yes, I think ISN has recently, probably for the first time, done some excellent collaboration and lobbying. IMO it just should have posted, in the same update, what they think (even if just tentatively) are the viable routes, both to PR and to college training (e.g., ways to get around the AGPT PR requirement, like the RVTS or ACRRM Independent routes, and the sponsorship route we learned about here on SDN, and whether/how states/RVTS are committing to increase support for those routes). Even if simply as a continued effort in their lobbying campaign for the viability of those routes.


I think you mean attendance at conventions, which presence doesn't have much bearing on AMSA politics, which are themselves rather opaque. Observers of Council (or the deliberations of it, consisting of the Executive Committee and the voting and non-voting med soc reps) are fairly rare.

1. Who do you think asked them to seek you out? You PM'd me telling me who you are. I remember well what went down.
2. I wanted to express sympathy and appreciation for what they do and still do, above and beyond what is expected of them as students. I don't think it's fair to put them down. Unless I had similar time and conviction to do what they do, I'm not about to accuse them of not doing more - it's unfair. Nor do I believe in tearing students down when they are trying their best. It's a lot of time and energy to sacrifice on their part.

I'm sure if they had time they would produce more guides - actually why can't you help them with this? You have the relevant knowledge and experience - things students may not have. Plenty of alum gave talks and made guides for UQMS. That's what the international subcomm relied on in my time.

3. I was referring to Council meetings where policy is discussed and voted on. Definitely not convention. These take place over 3 solid days, 3 times a year. Given the encyclopedic sized minutes they put together - there is effort made for transparency. But hell. Every student society has been critiqued as opaque. UQMS too.

I am done responding on this - too tired and have exams to study for. I just don't have energy for this type of discussion anymore either. I wonder where time goes sometimes, and how much I want to spend in here. I don't like it, for instance when things quickly spirals into opinion and ego.

And I don't want this to be about ego when so much is at stake. It breaks my heart each time. It's easy to debate when it's not your own future on the line - and I do feel responsible for everything I say here or otherwise.

Going to take a bit of a hiatus, will still be around to answer PMs and provide info where it's relatively easy to do for students, premeds and IMGs. But anything else I'm probably not going to read to be quite honest.

I can't provide info or advice to practicing residents that have already figured things out for themselves. I sought to provide a service to the best of my ability and conscience not ignite debate - even though it occurred along the way. Discussion is fine. Further to that.. I take no further part.

Take care all!

 

[Domperidone]

Dom thanks for the advice. Been reading this thread since last year. Could you clarify what has changed with Queensland priority

I'll come back to this! PM or message me in a thread if I forget. It's a whole other can of worms on its own. But I'm just tied up this week. Again, as a premed - it is very possible things like priority groups will change in another 3-4 yrs. It's not something to count on 'not changing' or get reassurances from. Really the take home is as Sean says, roll the dice. Have back up plans, multiples, if you're the anxious type.

 

[Domperidone]

Yeah, it really comes down to either just rolling the dice or not. In the past there hasn't been an issue, but the landscape is always changing. What I know for this year coming will likely not change, so I feel pretty good with my current plan. That plan has been evolving since I started 4 years ago though, and it wasn't until this year that I decided to return. My plan until recently was always to practice in the US. My priorities shifted, and that was personal to me. Everyone will have to make that same decision depending on the program they are in.

You're fine! I forgot to say that earlier (but you already know that you are - and I wouldn't expect anything less of final years).
And it's absolutely correct in that by final year things are the most certain they can be. It's the most relaxed anyone can feel about the intern year (or possibility of it). So long as you out the work in, did your research (which I know you have). It's the years before, particularly preclinical and premed where I would not count on things having permanence. Grats on being close to the end!

 

[pitman]

I simply said that the ISN should post more. That's certainly not tearing them down in my book. But when it comes to volunteering, I stand by my view that people should not put their hand up unless they're able and willing to do the job (and represent their constitents above all else). Last year and I'll assume this year, they most certainly have. And as said, I was particularly impressed by the Chair's selflessness and willingness to stand up to those who appointed him.

I also believe that advocates should continue to advocate in the face of perceived adversity. Otherwise, what's the point.

Didn't realize you had contacted ISN, Ta. But when did we PM last year -- I was simply told 'people who know you from past involvement' had recommended me, and I didn't ask. But knowing I work behind the scenes does beg the question of why I'd be called out for giving advice while not a current student...

 

[Domperidone]

I simply said that the ISN should post more. That's certainly not tearing them down in my book. But when it comes to volunteering, I stand by my view that people should not put their hand up unless they're able and willing to do the job (and represent their constitents above all else). Last year and I'll assume this year, they most certainly have. And as said, I was particularly impressed by the Chair's selflessness and willingness to stand up to those who appointed him.

I also believe that advocates should continue to advocate in the face of perceived adversity. Otherwise, what's the point.

Didn't realize you had contacted ISN, Ta. But when did we PM last year -- I was simply told 'people who know you from past involvement' had recommended me, and I didn't ask. But knowing I work behind the scenes does beg the question of why I'd be called out for giving advice while not a current student...

ISN should post more - that goes without saying with any volunteer organization or advocacy program. There is always more work to be done.
It is very easy for you or I to say, post more, do more.
When neither of us are doing that grunt work for them.

EDITED/Removed,
:S material maybe hinging on too personal for my liking.

 

[pitman]

I'm continuing to post here, because this stuff is pertinent and adds a bit of insight and transparency to medico-politics here, and this thread is fundamentally about politics.

You write the above as though I wasn't ever a student, or a doctor rep, having done precisely the sort of volunteer advocacy that they're doing, like representing UQ students, establishing the UQMS int'l subcommittee, dealing with AMSA weenies, getting them to even recognize int'l students in the first place. Half the med soc reps at Council -- and I don't think that's an exaggeration -- continue to act out of self-interest, as has always been the case. The near-coup last year being Exhibit A, and that was not the exception. AMA sub-committees are generally man-handled to do the bidding of their state and federal masters, with some crazy ramifications like CDTs being pressured from above to allow med students to vote in violation of the AMA Constitution, or no oversight of elections where votes are counted by a political hack. All of these experiences share a lesson: there is to be no assumption that other 'volunteers' share your or their constituents' interests.

AMSA Exec reps are also 'volunteers'. Last year's Exec was crap, if not just for its coup attempt. That venture was pure selfishness. They deserved to be called out. And they were smacked down, hard, by the ISN pushing back because someone helped show them how to push back, and to outwit the conspiring weenie reps among them at their own game. Council has done little for int'ls IMO since last decade. I don't care if they're volunteers, 'students first' and all that, whenever reps act selfishly and vote on motions depending on how they personally would be affected, or lazily, using their position simply to put their name on a CV, I call them out. I dig in and push.

And no, Council minutes do not reflect well what happens at Council. They also don't register the politicking behind the scenes that virtually no one gets to see, whether around the time/location of Convention or GHN's Gaia-Communal-Worship-shindig or otherwise.

So it's not undermining someone (or a group, which is obviously the reflection of a group of individuals) who is doing a commendable job to push them gently by saying, here is where you could do better. Or, toughen up, because you will be eaten alive if you don't. Whenever I lead an advocacy group, I push them, and they tend to shine. When I was asked to help ISN, I also pushed them, and they rose to meet the challenge -- not just because of me, but certainly I played my part. They didn't sit there like snowflakes and whine, "Please stop...You're hurting my confidence...". Frankly, I have no time for snowflakes, and more than once I've told volunteers under me to 'suck it up'. Not randomly thrown out there irrespective of their other responsibilities, but in the context that they chose their commitment to others, not I. Others don't have to share my approach or management style, but to criticize it without seeing the larger dynamics or outcomes makes no sense.

If one isn't willing to do the best job possible given reasonable time constraints, notably time set aside for school and study, or can't take being nudged to do better, then one shouldn't be representing others. Because there are usually others that you've convinced appointees or voters to displace to get you the position you have. And because med school -- as medical -- politics at its base is not luvvy-duvvy, and if you're not ready to amp up and be tough, to be pushed to become tough enough to act in the interests of others before yourself in the battles that you choose, then you will not effect the change that you know is good and best.

As to '...in the face of adversity...' in my previous post, that was light-hearted but referring to you.

 

[Laetare]

Hi. I'm a longtime lurker of the Australia sub-forum and I thank all participants for your efforts. The ISN information sheet posted by Sean quotes the Department of Home Affairs saying:

“(With regard to the TSS visa) Experience gained through clinical placements and internships may be considered as work experience for medical practitioners. Work experience does not need to be paid.”​

To me this seems to mean that the clinical years of medical school meet the requirement of "at least two years' work experience" for the TSS visa. It's too early to be certain but does my reading appear to be correct?

 

[pitman]

To me this seems to mean that the clinical years of medical school meet the requirement of "at least two years' work experience" for the TSS visa. It's too early to be certain but does my reading appear to be correct?

Correct. Because you'd be expected to do two years of 'clinical rotations', you would be expected to meet this criteria. The Dept could be sticklers, say if you did some overseas rotations that were not replaced by equal time in your first two years of med, but that would be unlikely given that they are bending over backwards to help medical students (and potentially other students in Australia) get around the worst of the visa changes, when the implications for students was not readily apparent at the time of policy development.

Obviously this is not definite, as nothing is, but because of how things have played out, it now appears all but guaranteed that med students will be considered to have met the 'two years' requirement by the time they graduate.

 

[Domperidone]

Hi. I'm a longtime lurker of the Australia sub-forum and I thank all participants for your efforts. The ISN information sheet posted by Sean quotes the Department of Home Affairs saying:

“(With regard to the TSS visa) Experience gained through clinical placements and internships may be considered as work experience for medical practitioners. Work experience does not need to be paid.”​

To me this seems to mean that the clinical years of medical school meet the requirement of "at least two years' work experience" for the TSS visa. It's too early to be certain but does my reading appear to be correct?

Correct yes, but still early.

 

[Domperidone]

I'm continuing to post here, because this stuff is pertinent and adds a bit of insight and transparency to medico-politics here, and this thread is fundamentally about politics.

You write the above as though I wasn't ever a student, or a doctor rep, having done precisely the sort of volunteer advocacy that they're doing, like representing UQ students, establishing the UQMS int'l subcommittee, dealing with AMSA weenies, getting them to even recognize int'l students in the first place. Half the med soc reps at Council -- and I don't think that's an exaggeration -- continue to act out of self-interest, as has always been the case. The near-coup last year being Exhibit A, and that was not the exception. AMA sub-committees are generally man-handled to do the bidding of their state and federal masters, with some crazy ramifications like CDTs being pressured from above to allow med students to vote in violation of the AMA Constitution, or no oversight of elections where votes are counted by a political hack. All of these experiences share a lesson: there is to be no assumption that other 'volunteers' share your or their constituents' interests.

AMSA Exec reps are also 'volunteers'. Last year's Exec was crap, if not just for its coup attempt. That venture was pure selfishness. They deserved to be called out. And they were smacked down, hard, by the ISN pushing back because someone helped show them how to push back, and to outwit the conspiring weenie reps among them at their own game. Council has done little for int'ls IMO since last decade. I don't care if they're volunteers, 'students first' and all that, whenever reps act selfishly and vote on motions depending on how they personally would be affected, or lazily, using their position simply to put their name on a CV, I call them out. I dig in and push.

And no, Council minutes do not reflect well what happens at Council. They also don't register the politicking behind the scenes that virtually no one gets to see, whether around the time/location of Convention or GHN's Gaia-Communal-Worship-shindig or otherwise.

So it's not undermining someone (or a group, which is obviously the reflection of a group of individuals) who is doing a commendable job to push them gently by saying, here is where you could do better. Or, toughen up, because you will be eaten alive if you don't. Whenever I lead an advocacy group, I push them, and they tend to shine. When I was asked to help ISN, I also pushed them, and they rose to meet the challenge -- not just because of me, but certainly I played my part. They didn't sit there like snowflakes and whine, "Please stop...You're hurting my confidence...". Frankly, I have no time for snowflakes, and more than once I've told volunteers under me to 'suck it up'. Not randomly thrown out there irrespective of their other responsibilities, but in the context that they chose their commitment to others, not I. Others don't have to share my approach or management style, but to criticize it without seeing the larger dynamics or outcomes makes no sense.

If one isn't willing to do the best job possible given reasonable time constraints, notably time set aside for school and study, or can't take being nudged to do better, then one shouldn't be representing others. Because there are usually others that you've convinced appointees or voters to displace to get you the position you have. And because med school -- as medical -- politics at its base is not luvvy-duvvy, and if you're not ready to amp up and be tough, to be pushed to become tough enough to act in the interests of others before yourself in the battles that you choose, then you will not effect the change that you know is good and best.

As to '...in the face of adversity...' in my previous post, that was light-hearted but referring to you.

I really did not wish to do this but I have now placed you on my ignore list for a period of time. This is not permanent.

I have not read this post nor will I be for a few weeks.

Again, please do not take offense at this. I have said repeatedly that I have limited time and energy. I have explained this before. My life is busy right now, and I would likevto think that have the right to ration what time I do have left to spare. I am here in voluntary capacity. I told you I choose to focus on directly guiding those in need right now and now further. I had asked for consideration as I did not wish to resort to this.

This was the last thing I wished to do. There are student msgs I have ignored for days because I chose to respond to this instead. There is no advice you need from me. I have neglected others.

Great, if you find benefit from argument if this what you are used to. But I see none, I find it draining. I am struggling to deal with this at this time. I also think it's distracting at this point for this *thread I should say. So I am going to stop.

 

[mcat_taker]

I really did not wish to do this but I have now placed you on my ignore list for a period of time. This is not permanent.

I have not read this post nor will I be for a few weeks.

Again, please do not take offense at this. I have said repeatedly that I have limited time and energy. I have explained this before. My life is busy right now, and I would likevto think that have the right to ration what time I do have left to spare. I am here in voluntary capacity. I told you I choose to focus on directly guiding those in need right now and now further. I had asked for consideration as I did not wish to resort to this.

This was the last thing I wished to do. There are student msgs I have ignored for days because I chose to respond to this instead. There is no advice you need from me. I have neglected others.

Great, if you find benefit from argument if this what you are used to. But I see none, I find it draining. I am struggling to deal with this at this time. I also think it's distracting at this point for this forum. So I am going to stop.

Pitman has a right to respond to any posts that are made publicly here. He isn't arguing but offering his own opinion on topics YOU bring up. You seem to think everything is an argument of some sort. You don't need to respond to EVERY message he posts, that is your prerogative to do so. If it's time consuming simply don't respond. It doesn't need a long winded explanation for why you're not responding. I'm not sure why you are taking offense, this is a discussion board after all full of discussions with multiple people not MONOLOGUES dominated by solo individuals. People respond to and ignore posts as they see fit. He's been a well respected long time poster on this board and students can read those messages if it is pertinent to them. If not they can ignore them. He keeps a collegial and professional posting history as good as anyone and is not trying to argue but simply offering his own expertise and thoughts.

 

[Domperidone]

Pitman has a right to respond to any posts that are made publicly here. He isn't arguing but offering his own opinion on topics YOU bring up. You seem to think everything is an argument of some sort. You don't need to respond to EVERY message he posts, that is your prerogative to do so. If it's time consuming simply don't respond. It doesn't need a long winded explanation for why you're not responding. I'm not sure why you are taking offense, this is a discussion board after all full of discussions with multiple people not MONOLOGUES dominated by solo individuals. People respond to and ignore posts as they see fit. He's been a well respected long time poster on this board and students can read those messages if it is pertinent to them. If not they can ignore them. He keeps a collegial and professional posting history as good as anyone and is not trying to argue but simply offering his own expertise and thoughts.

Oh dear.

Yes, he does have a right - but should he expect a response in return I don't always choose to ice him out, out of respect. The explanation was done to avoid causing offense to him (or at least minimise it) - I still see him as a colleague and will return in time to debate or discuss. But not right now. It is just not a good time. It also becoming too personal for me for comfort and I think for him - it was wholly unintended but I did not wish for him to drag out personal items from his life into an anonymous forum. I don't like to see this becoming emotional either whether intended or not (most likely not). Do I enjoy being at odds with Pitman? Absolutely not. Nor do I like having him on my ignore list.

The tone has gone astray and correct that it is as much my fault. Hence stopping. The fact that this is still continuing to be a topic in here is what I would like to avoid.

I would actually like to steer away from monologues in future to be honest, I don't see them going anywhere. Like lectures nowadays that go on and on (I am referring to myself). Things should be interactive.

Perhaps I should change my tone permanently - I think that I do. I am changing my focus as I have said or narrowing my lens.

I remember you expressed unhappiness to my responses to your comments in previous threads - hoping this is not a response reflective of that as well. Regardless if you feel it's gone too far in any direction at any time, you can report me to moderator or put me on ignore (I won't be upset).

 

[Domperidone]

Dom thanks for the advice. Been reading this thread since last year. Could you clarify what has changed with Queensland priority

Essentially, they changed the 8 priority groups for intern selection for positions into 4. Nothing has really changed in practice, it's merely been streamlined or clarified to reflect some of the current recruitment practices of QLD hospitals. For example, they eliminated a priority grp specifying that interstate students who graduated from QLD high schools are above those who didn't. Added IMGs in there. Or maybe they were there before. IMO it should have been done a long time ago, and now it is more consistent with what is being practiced.

It's challenging to explain in a short post. But QLD internship campaign is one part. They are the process. Like any other match system. Very unique to QLD is that internship is allocated for domestic QLD grads - almost at random. No interviews. Hospitals have no choice in which interns they get. Interns can preference. For all other applicants it is "merit based" - applications are reviewed, there may or may not be an interview. Hospitals get to select applicants to hire. So far, they do go by prioritizing interstate grads then international students (with some exception - see below). If there are left over positions (rare) it is then offered to IMGs.

In practice, most QLD domestic grads preference or oversubscribe to metro hospitals. So by the times offers are out for grp B or C, there's only rural or regional hospital positions left. Again, nationwide most domestics preference cities. Often they apply interstate cities as back up. This means they turn down rural placements if they preference them at all. It does leave spaces for some but not all group C students each year so far. So they have to be assertive about this.

Still remember we are 4 years away should you decide to start school in Australia. Things can change. There are no job guarantees. So..one thing I would always encourage is diversifying your portfolio or be open to many back-up plans, ensuring that you always have a way out etc. The schools themselves even advised this.

Generally..
(and this used to drive nuts hearing it so often as it was tantalizingly vague, but it's true) If you are persistent you will find something. Unless the markets shift again - I can never say for sure. Many grads and later residents find positions outside the match as vacancies arise, people quit or drop out of med school etc. But they put in the effort (be it calling relentlessly around dozens of hospitals a day or driving 20 hrs to visit distant rural sites, other maddening things, no rest for the wicked etc.)

 

[QuadrangularTriangle]

Hi Guys,

I have a question which I cant really answer by googling.

Lets say I make the TSS visa for my intern year and RMO1. And I get into BPT training. Would I then be able to apply for the TSS visa under the MLTSSL 4 year visa?

 

[sean80439]

That's something you'll need to talk to immigration about. Everyone here is going to have the same resources you will have.

 

[Domperidone]

Hi Guys,

I have a question which I cant really answer by googling.

Lets say I make the TSS visa for my intern year and RMO1. And I get into BPT training. Would I then be able to apply for the TSS visa under the MLTSSL 4 year visa?

The changes are new for everyone.
I wouldn't be able to answer from experience, because the changes rolling out are so new. You'll be part of the first batch to go through this.

Combined current list of eligible skilled occupations
If you apply as a resident medical officer then you're eligible for STSOL. If you fall under the category of "Specialist General Medicine" it's MLTSSL. At least according to the official SOL.

Retlixet (in comments way earlier) suggested that if you're a trainee/registrar registered at a college you can apply under the Specialist General Medicine category for the MLTSSL. There's no sorta 'real way' to verify if it can happen in practice because it's all uncharted territory, no one's had to actually undergo it yet. So what sean is saying above, email or talk to some reputable migration agents. Most of them offer free advising, and only charge when you require their assistance to apply. Not all will know about the medical pathways and nuances, but possibly a few will. Another option is calling Dept of Home Affairs directly. Make an enquiry. Or just start the application (not submitting it) and seeing what options there are on drop down menus etc.

 

[EmRBee]

Hello! I'm an IMG planning to write plab and do fy1. I want to eventually settle down in Australia. How long will it take to get me a PR? Should I do CST 1, 2 and then try as @retiltxet mentioned? I haven't seen any visa options for Registrar's. Does surgery(general) apply to that? Some help would be appreciated!
PS. I want to get into surgery or dermatology