New Zealand and Aus Optometry

[Taven7755]

Hello all,

I am reapplying to schools in the U.S. in a month or so, but I was wondering about the programs that exist in NZ and Aus... I was raised in Wellington, NZ, and I would love to go back for school. One problem I know is that you are not a "dr" after graduating...The salaries are about 80k (NZ dollars) as an average, but I want to know about the profession in general in these places. (Just a side note, I always find it strange how much people rip optometry on this site, but if you suggest going somewhere else then that is always shot down too).Any input at all would be very helpful. I thank all of you.

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[qwopty99]

My understanding is that Australia/NZ is adopting the US model of medicine.

Optometry and medicine are currently bachelor degrees there (B.Opt, MB). They are shifting towards doctoral-level degrees for these (and dentistry).

As such, future optometrists (and physicians) graduating in Australia will be awarded doctoral degrees, and entrance will occur after undergrad.


I can't remember where I heard this, but you should be able to find it if it is indeed true.

 

[jefguth]

My understanding is that Australia/NZ is adopting the US model of medicine.

Optometry and medicine are currently bachelor degrees there (B.Opt, MB). They are shifting towards doctoral-level degrees for these (and dentistry).

As such, future optometrists (and physicians) graduating in Australia will be awarded doctoral degrees, and entrance will occur after undergrad.


I can't remember where I heard this, but you should be able to find it if it is indeed true.

You're half correct here. So far only the University of Melbourne is moving towards OD and MD degrees with post-undergraduate admissions.

I would add, that attending a non-OD program abroad could create difficulties upon returning to the USA (if thats even part of your plan) since some states specifically specify that you must hold a "doctor of optometry" degree for licensure. Not sure whether U of Melbourne will go after the ASCO accreditation thought like we have in Canada and USA, if they don't that would also be an issue for much of the USA.

Just this summer I worked with a handful of 4th year Aussie students for a month. They are generally very well trained and knowledgeable, however where they had difficulty was BIO. Most of them said they had never seen out to the ora serrata, and rarely even seen vortex veins. Apparently they were not required to have a teaching mirrors... so no one was ever really watching them. Again, if this where the case, they would have difficulty passing boards here in the USA. Also didn't really know how to take BP, but thats not such a big deal, easy enough to learn.

So generally, it's best to go to school wherever it is your plan/hope to practice.

 

[Taven7755]

Thank you for the knowledgeable and courteous answers... This site has made me lose some faith in my profession for the quick digression most discussions take to personal attacks/optometry as a profession attacks...Thank you and keep posting

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

My understanding is that Australia/NZ is adopting the US model of medicine.

Optometry and medicine are currently bachelor degrees there (B.Opt, MB). They are shifting towards doctoral-level degrees for these (and dentistry).

As such, future optometrists (and physicians) graduating in Australia will be awarded doctoral degrees, and entrance will occur after undergrad.


I can't remember where I heard this, but you should be able to find it if it is indeed true.

Hmm.. ok. Lots of mis information.

There are already lots of medical schools (and other programs) in Australia that require a previous bachelors for admission. (4 year graduate entry programs) that are just like the US programs... however, they still grant a "bachelors of medicine".

Also, be aware that there are 6 year medical (and dental) programs in Europe and elsewhere in the world that admit students right out of High school and their programs are MD and DDS. So.. just because a degree has the word "doctor" in it really doesn't mean much. It is really has more to do with just the tradition of the University granting the degree.

Accrediation, recognition, and equivalency has nothing to do with what you call the degree. For example. Most of the Vet schools in Australia and New Zealand are now accredited in the US and Canada. Yet.. they still grant a "Bachelors of Vet Science/Medicine" out of tradition.

For example:
University of Sydney's (Vet) BVSc degree is 100% equal to any US DVM degree. Both are accredited US degrees and are viewed as equivalent degrees.

Australian Vet graduate currently practicing in the US

Also, The University of Sydney's dental program is similarly a 4-year program that requires applicants to have completed a degree before being considered for admissions. They too are also currently undergoing US/Canadian accreditation and they also grant a "Bachelor of Dentistry" degree which is equal to a US DDS degree.

I'm not sure if the Sydney (or other Aus/NZ) optometry program is/are accepted in the US/Canada. Theoretically if any Aus/NZ optometry program were to obtain US accrediation.. it wouldn't really matter what they called the degree because its "accreditation" that matters.

Oh.. and btw: I don't know about optometrists.. but even though doctors, dentists, and vets all have "bachelors degrees" in Aus/NZ.. they are all still refered to as "Dr."



Hope this helps

 

[qwopty99]

it wouldn't really matter what they called the degree because its "accreditation" that matters.

It wouldn't matter for dentists and physicians, but it would matter for optometrists because they would then be called doctors.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Apparently, someone has suggested that the University of Melbourne is adopting the model that I mentioned in my post. Do you find this true or not?

Yes, it is true. Melbourne University is making all of their professional programs a 4 year "clinical doctorate" that require a previous degree for admission.

My point is that other Australian universities already have 4 year professional programs that require a previous bachelors for admission, etc.. but they have decided to retain the title of "Bachelor" out of tradition.

The University of Sydney's medical school transitioned from a 6-year Bachelor of Medicine and Surgery program that accepted students out of high school to a 4-year program that required a previous degree with a high GPA, GAMSAT or MCAT, etc.. over 10 years ago. This is no different to what Melbourne is doing now. However, Melbourne has simply decided to change the title of the degree. (yet the structure of their new medical program, the curriculum, and the pathway to admission is no different).

Anytime someone graduates from an Australian medical school and obtains a US state medical license, they are even allowed to use the title "MD" if they so wish simply so the local un-educated public will know they are a licensed allopathic physician.


It is simply semantics. Nothing more.

It wouldn't matter for dentists and physicians, but it would matter for optometrists because they would then be called doctors.

hmm.. ok.

I do know for a fact that medical, dental, vet, chiropractic, etc who graduate in Australia are allowed to be referred to as doctor. I don't know for sure the regulations regarding optometry in Australia. Regardless, this ability to use the title doctor is given to these professions by their local Australian professional bodies and licensing authorities because of the role they provide and not because of the title of their degree.


This is regulated by your local licensing body as well. I.E. if you graduated with an Australian optom degree (B.Optom) ... and if it were accredited in the US, or if you obtained licensure in the US. If your state board of optom allowed licensed optometrists in your state to refer to themselves as "Doctor", then I would presume you would also be included in this. (refer to the example of the vet in my above post with a Bachelors from Australia, Dr. Heath Stump, BVMS)

I find it amusing that in the US... everyone from the nurse to the janitor wants to be able to be called "doctor".

I really don't understand what the big deal is... Honestly, Is your goal to become an optometrist.. or is your goal to obtain some degree any degree that will allow you to put "Dr." in front of your name and wear a white coat around... so you can get that respect and love from daddy that he never gave you.

 

[qwopty99]

Pretty ironic that this statement comes from someone who uses "Dr." in their screen name.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Why so cynical about people's motivations?


Pretty ironic that this statement comes from someone who uses "Dr." in their screen name.

I was kidding around.. but honestly, why is that so important? Its like how all the physical therapy programs went from being a BSPT (4 year) to a MSPT (2-3 year) and then to a DPT (3 year). The curriculum is basically the same really.. and at the end of the day... no matter what degree you have. You're still just a physical therapist. your scope of practice is NO different.

But everyone seems to be fixated on the idea of obtainig some kind of degree with the word "doctor" in it.

Even all the nurses now want to get a DNP degree (cause they "think" they will be able to take over the position of a MD family doctor). But in reality.. even if you have a Doctor of nursing.. you still be a nurse.

If you want to be a doctor. Go to med school.

 

[qwopty99]

It is simply semantics. Nothing more.

The change from a B.Optom to an O.D. is the additional study of four years of university for those who pursue optometry in Australia.

 

[qwopty99]

But everyone seems to be fixated on the idea of obtainig some kind of degree with the word "doctor" in it.

Case in point, yourself.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Case in point, yourself.

well.. my role will be as a physician(doctor) after attending medical school. ... and by the way.. most people create joke SDN names. I tend to joke around alot... try not to take it personally. I apologies if I offended you.

 

[qwopty99]

I'm in med school.

Thanks for reminding me.

 

[qwopty99]

Umm?

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

The change from a B.Optom to an O.D. is the additional study of four years of university for those who pursue optometry in Australia.

Melbourne Optometry
B.Optom = 5 years

New OD program = 4 years (requires 3 years previous study)

7-5= 2 years

So, you're basically talking about a 2 year difference of undergraduate courses that for the most part have nothing to do with actual optometry.

The actual course material (what you learn about Optometry, your scope, and your competance) as a B.Optom grad compared with an OD grad will be exactly the same.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Physicians were the original folk who were "fixated on the idea of obtainig (sic) some kind of degree with the word "doctor" in it".

Not really, the first medical degrees to be offered (even in the US) was the "Bachelor of Medicine", which does not include the word doctor in it.

However you are allowed to use the title Dr. because of the nature of your work.

The title of "doctor" was originally reserved for those who acquired the PhD.

I agree with you here.

 

[qwopty99]

Melbourne Optometry
So, you're basically talking about a 2 year difference of undergraduate courses that for the most part have nothing to do with actual optometry.

The actual course material (what you learn about Optometry, your scope, and your competance) as a B.Optom grad compared with an OD grad will be exactly the same.

The two years of pre-optom undergrad courses that have "nothing to do with actual optometry" are currently embedded in the 5 year program. They will now be prerequisites for the four-year doctoral degree. That will leave more time for them to teach optometry.

 

[qwopty99]

Not really, the first medical degrees to be offered (even in the US) was the "Bachelor of Medicine", which does not include the word doctor in it.

The "Bachelor of Medicine" gave way to the "Doctor of Medicine".

 

[qwopty99]

However you are allowed to use the title Dr. because of the nature of your work.

So are US optometrists.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

The two years of pre-optom undergrad courses that have "nothing to do with actual optometry" are currently embedded in the 5 year program. They will now be prerequisites for the four-year doctoral degree. That will leave more time for them to teach optometry.

I know, I've taught in these schools.

What's funny is that there are already some 6 year MD programs for students out of High School in the US. ... and there have been some discussions around the idea that if the US moves more towards a universal health system.. and if reimbursements go down for physicians, that in order to help those going into medicine, that the suggestion had been made that more US programs move towards a 6 year European model. instead of the (90 semester hours pre-med + 4 years). As well as more gov subsidization schemes for education.

 

[qwopty99]

What's funny is that there are already some 6 year MD programs for students out of High School in the US. ... and there have been some discussions around the idea that if the US moves more towards a universal health system.. and if reimbursements go down for physicians, that in order to help those going into medicine, that the suggestion had been made that more US programs move towards a 6 year European model. instead of the (90 semester hours pre-med + 4 years). As well as more gov subsidization schemes for education.

Probably not a bad idea. It's not too common that one's undergrad degree is even relevant once one acquires a professional degree.

A disadvantage is that folks will be deciding on a career in medicine at a much earlier age (18). I don't think people can make this type of mature decision at this age (it'll be their parents telling them to into med school).

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

The "Bachelor of Medicine" gave way to the "Doctor of Medicine". This may be an example of individuals ""fixated on the idea of obtainig (sic) some kind of degree with the word "doctor" in it".

Maybe. I think it's all a bit silly really. To be honest, since all of these degrees are (entry-level) first degrees in their fields. I actually think they should all be called bachelors. Even in Canada, the MD is considered an undergraduate degree.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

So are US optometrists.

Aus optoms may be able to as well. I'm not sure about this one. As I've stated before.. I know vets, doctors, and dentists (and even chiros) are. But again, this has nothing to do with having a "doctorate".

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Probably not a bad idea. It's not too common that one's undergrad degree is even relevant once one acquires a professional degree.

A disadvantage is that folks will be deciding on a career in medicine at a much earlier age (18). I don't think people can make this type of mature decision at this age (it'll be their parents telling them to into med school).

Agreed.

That is exactly why some programs (Cambridge medical school for example) have 2 points of entry. A 6 year course for those out of High school, and a 4 year course for those with previous degrees.