newbie question, but why is VR so important?

[majik1213]

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I saw a poster say that a low VR score implied deficient communication skills. After reading that, I began to wonder why on earth VR is such an important section of the MCAT.

whoever said that is wrong .. the writing sample, and only the writing sample, can guage how effectively you communicate your ideas to other individuals. The verbal reasoning section, but not just that section (PS and BS can too to a lesser extent), can effectively guage how well you can comprehend the subtleties of human communication. To me, the situation becomes complicated in light of the fact that the WS receives so little attention.

If I were in charge, I'd flip the importance of the WS vs. VR; that is, I'd have VR receive J to T and WS receive 1 to 15. Now you folks out there who are rocking 10+ scores may think that's a bold statement, but I beg you to continue reading. I think being able to say clearly what you want to say is more important than how well you can absorb subtleties in human communication that IMHO rarely, if ever, occur in medicine. And if they do, that's the kind of stuff BS takes care of because tricky questions do appear to test that you really understand the material.

To be certain, I do see that VR has some value. I did read a blog once of a person who tried to get approval for administering an incorrect drug, the name of which subtly differed from the intended medication. That's the sole time I've ever seen the importance of VR shining through into medicine .. so far. In contrast, the times that I've said, "wow, if only Dr. X had rephrased his communication to that patient" are many.

At the very least, I feel the WS should get a number score, just like the other 3 sections. That's a fair statement, for communicating your thoughts can be just as important as is absorbing new material.

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Now note that I'm easily seen as biased, an 8 in VR and a T on WS; however, I am asking for you to shed light on the matter and to explain why VR receives the importance that, say, BS and PS do. Don't simply point out the correlation between VR and success on the USMLE step 1, although I could see that the WS isn't correlated with success on that multiple choice exam; however, I'm pushing the point that the WS reflects your ability to tell your patient what's up in the clearest possible manner, and in light of the fact that BS and PS have strong USMLE correlations (see signiture), I think VR should be placed last in terms of emphasis.

 

[xrevision]

The writing sample is just not important because you are never going to be speaking to your patient in the form of an essay. You're going to need to get through to them, and while clever use of rhetoric is justified in an essay - it has no place when you're telling a patient they are going to die. The verbal section is important because you will be doing a huge amount of reading in a short period of time, and it is absolutely essential to know what the author is talking about. Especially when you reach even higher levels of education, things simply won't be coming in textbooks. You will be learning about new things from research papers. The writing sample would be more relevant if it were structured to be a research paper, but as it stands right now the writing sample definitely should take a lower value than the verbal section.

 

[armybound]

VR is about being able to read information you're not familiar with and understand what they're trying to say very quickly. This is common practice for med students and physicians.

they also say that VR correlates very well with board scores, so that's another reason why it matters.

 

[RSAgator]

i wouldn't say a low VR implies deficient communication ability. In my opinion one of the reasons VR is so important is that it is the one section where everyone is on the same page. There's no outside information, and you have to use only what you are given to answer questions. It says a lot about a person's ability to read critically and effectively, and good verbal skills will help in every other subject that person studies.

 

[bozz]

The writing score isn't based on a curve..... is it? too many people get Ss and Ts

If it were hypothetically based on a numerical score which would have to be curved, most people who would otherwise get Ts would end up with 10s. So in the end, it really won't help. This is all assuming the writing score is currently not based on a curve.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

The writing score isn't based on a curve..... is it? too many people get Ss and Ts

If it were hypothetically based on a numerical score which would have to be curved, most people who would otherwise get Ts would end up with 10s. So in the end, it really won't help. This is all assuming the writing score is currently not based on a curve.

hardly anyone gets a T, I dont think its possible to really "curve" an essay, but the distribution is fairly bell shaped.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

As far as communication skills is concerned, I read a publication on the AAMC website about them possibly adding a new section to the MCAT. There wasnt much info on it but from what I gathered, You would watch short video clips and answer questions that somehow tested your communication ability.

 

[J ROD]

It's important because it is on the test!

 

[bozz]

It's important because it is on the test!

best answer... once you're done with getting into med school.. regardless of your MCAT score, you're not even gonna care about the MCAT

try and beat the system!

 

[majik1213]

The writing score isn't based on a curve..... is it? too many people get Ss and Ts

If it were hypothetically based on a numerical score which would have to be curved, most people who would otherwise get Ts would end up with 10s. So in the end, it really won't help. This is all assuming the writing score is currently not based on a curve.

it's curved .. O is average score, like 8; 21.6% of test takers got M's in 2007, like 6-7, and many get PQR, like 10. T's and J's are as rare as 15s and 1s

 

[bluemonkey]

The MCAT as a whole is testing logical reasoning. All of the sections except verbal have some outside content that is relevant. The verbal section is solely a test of how well you can logically reason...

 

[majik1213]

It's important because it is on the test!

honestly, I want to take a barbell and smash you, hard, over the head for this answer. Let me rephrase the prompt for you: Suppose you are charged with the task of making an exam to weed out medical students. Justify the implementation of a VR section if you believe it should be there.

 

[majik1213]

The writing sample is just not important because you are never going to be speaking to your patient in the form of an essay. You're going to need to get through to them, and while clever use of rhetoric is justified in an essay - it has no place when you're telling a patient they are going to die. The verbal section is important because you will be doing a huge amount of reading in a short period of time, and it is absolutely essential to know what the author is talking about. Especially when you reach even higher levels of education, things simply won't be coming in textbooks. You will be learning about new things from research papers. The writing sample would be more relevant if it were structured to be a research paper, but as it stands right now the writing sample definitely should take a lower value than the verbal section.

I'm sorry, but the two concepts are entangled. My writing is as sharp as my oratory, and I work hard to speak clearly and effectively. True, what one says may not accurately reflect how one writes, but in general it does. Mark Twain, for example, could whip up verbose, witty, and downright good verbal replies in interviews in addition to his writing. At the same time, a bumbling idiot you find on the streets can't write to save his/her life. As for the shades of gray in between, believe me, I can tell when a person is a good writer. When we work on writing essays, hearing a person express their poorly construed thoughts leaves me feeling written and spoken ideas are basically controlled by the same part of the brain, at least the part regarding the formation of the concepts.

At any rate, the WS works in mysterious ways. I use those proven skills to write great personal statements, and stellar update letters. I applied to 6 schools, and have gotten interviews to 50% of them. I wrote good update material to every one of these schools. Even if the WS has no value on the MCAT, it certainly helps outside of the MCAT, much like the interpersonal skills interviewers assess do.

 

[bluemonkey]

Please...

The writing sample is extremely straightforward. The format is always identical. The subjects are so broad that just about any example will work. You essentially know what you are going to get before the test. The verbal, on the other hand, is a completely different matter...

 

[majik1213]

Please...

The writing sample is extremely straightforward. The format is always identical. The subjects are so broad that just about any example will work. You essentially know what you are going to get before the test. The verbal, on the other hand, is a completely different matter...

i'm afraid that I don't see your point (maybe because I have bad verbal reasoning skills?! lol). But do please keep in mind that all sections have a curve, so 15s are as rare as Ts, and 1s as rare as Js. Apparently, "knowing" ahead of time does little to help the student.

But i'm not trying to focus on that, really. I said I'd flip the importance, and here's why. True, VR correlates to success, but BS and PS each have stronger correlations, so VR isn't the only predictor; it's in fact the weakest. In that light, the importance of the often neglected WS section can contend for 3rd place, and I think it should.

 

[bluemonkey]

It sounds like someone is a little bitter...seriously...The writing sample is a super-basic argument essay. One's ability to communicate has little to do with constructing an argument. The schools can see your PS as well...

 

[bozz]

It sounds like someone is a little bitter...seriously...The writing sample is a super-basic argument essay. One's ability to communicate has little to do with constructing an argument. The schools can see your PS as well...

x2 stop being bitter.. confidence takes you a long way

 

[tncekm]

hardly anyone gets a T, I dont think its possible to really "curve" an essay, but the distribution is fairly bell shaped.

Its curved... If you can attach an ordinal value to something, especially if it distributes itself normally, it can be curved.

 

[BerkReviewTeach]

they also say that VR correlates very well with board scores, so that's another reason why it matters.

So if I understand this correctly, a standardized exam can be used to approximate how you'll do on a standardized exam.

I'm hoping the test people eventually come up with a better explanation for the relevance of an exam. Every standardized test justifies its existence by being a predictor of performance on a different standardized exam.

Given that pretty much everyone who gets into medical school has a good MCAT score and pretty much everyone passes the boards, isn't it pretty much an automatic that a good MCAT score means you will pass the boards?

It's important because it is on the test!

Bwahahahaha... that is the most brilliant answer of all. I don't think you should be struck over the head with a barbell by a stressed out premed.

It's curved .. O is average score, like 8; 21.6% of test takers got M's in 2007, like 6-7, and many get PQR, like 10. T's and J's are as rare as 15s and 1s

So if I understand your view of a bell curve, the following holds true then:

T = 15
S = 11-14
R = 10
Q = 10
P = 10
O = 8
N = 7.431789
M = 6-7
L = 4-5?
K = 2-3?
J = 1

with no 9 given?

Perhaps your very much non-Bell curve for an 11-letter range that does not overlap with a 15-number range is the explanation why they don't give it a number.

The essay score is subjective and the essay itself is nothing more than a madlib where you insert pointless b.s. and quotes and hope they are relevant. I tend to think the adcoms know what they're doing when they generally ignore the essay score.

 

[AWhitehair]

It sounds like someone is a little bitter...seriously...The writing sample is a super-basic argument essay. One's ability to communicate has little to do with constructing an argument. The schools can see your PS as well...

I completely disagree. Argument is based on communicating your ideas to another and trying to convince him/her that your logic is worthy of adopting.

Princeton defines argument as "a discussion in which reasons are advanced for and against some proposition or proposal"...discussion implies communication.

 

[kronickm]

I think VR is considered important because while the BS and PS are greatly affected my rote memorization and learning, the VR is not. Basically, the BS and PS are better judges of how much and how well you can learn science, the VR is a better indicator of how smart you actually are. Please note that this is an opinion based upon my own personal conclusions, and the fact that I score very well on the VR. 😀

 

[hum3a]

I think VR is considered important because while the BS and PS are greatly affected my rote memorization and learning, the VR is not. Basically, the BS and PS are better judges of how much and how well you can learn science, the VR is a better indicator of how smart you actually are. Please note that this is an opinion based upon my own personal conclusions, and the fact that I score very well on the VR. 😀

i agree. When potential med students take the VR they are all essentially on the same playing field. I like it, really separates intelligent people from those that simply spend hours and hours trying to memorize info for tests.

this is why you almost never see people with a high VR and low PS and BS. Its usually the other way around

 

[bluemonkey]

If you confine communication to a rather narrow definition, then perhaps the WS is a measure of communication. Keep in mind, however, that this is the only part of the test where you know exactly what to do ahead of time. I could teach someone to write a R or S WS in about 2 hours and the person would not be a better communicator...

The VR, on the other hand, is definitely a test of how smart a person is. Whatever people say about answers being largely opinions is a bunch of BS. This section is straightforward application of logic, nothing else (except being able to read fairly quickly).

 

[AWhitehair]

If you confine communication to a rather narrow definition, then perhaps the WS is a measure of communication. Keep in mind, however, that this is the only part of the test where you know exactly what to do ahead of time. I could teach someone to write a R or S WS in about 2 hours and the person would not be a better communicator...

The VR, on the other hand, is definitely a test of how smart a person is. Whatever people say about answers being largely opinions is a bunch of BS. This section is straightforward application of logic, nothing else (except being able to read fairly quickly).

Are you sure about that? I think you need to reexamine what "communication" is. It involves aspects like: assessing, listening, questioning, analyzing, evaluating, and expressing. Half of these skills are used in the WS, therefore if you were able to teach someone to improve their writing section, you would also be improving the skills involved in communication.

 

[majik1213]

If you confine communication to a rather narrow definition, then perhaps the WS is a measure of communication. Keep in mind, however, that this is the only part of the test where you know exactly what to do ahead of time. I could teach someone to write a R or S WS in about 2 hours and the person would not be a better communicator...

The VR, on the other hand, is definitely a test of how smart a person is. Whatever people say about answers being largely opinions is a bunch of BS. This section is straightforward application of logic, nothing else (except being able to read fairly quickly).

ahh, now there is a nice argument. I agree to everything you said minus the "straightforward" part lol.

Now if this section is so easy and so straightforward, and yet still we see a normalized distribution, why not just give it a number, 1-15, like the other sections and add it up?

 

[AWhitehair]

ahh, now there is a nice argument. I agree to everything you said minus the "straightforward" part lol.

Now if this section is so easy and so straightforward, and yet still we see a normalized distribution, why not just give it a number, 1-15, like the other sections and add it up?

Looking at his old posts, it seems as though he really does not understand the nature of the MCAT. I don't think he has ever taken the MCAT. Not trying to drill on the guy, but take a look at this one...it does not fair well with his debate with me.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=6253632&postcount=10

 

[bluemonkey]

I'm sorry...I've never taken the MCAT? That's news to me

 

[bluemonkey]

And just to be clear. I never said that schools don't care about the writing sample nor did I say communication is unimportant. I only said that the writing sample does not purely show your abilities to communicate as it is an extremely formullaic essay.

 

[bluemonkey]

I hope we don't get a hard VR section. However, starting off with a hard PS puts a big damper on your confidence for the rest of the test. Who else is going into the test without having practiced the WS?

Apparently I have run into the communication master. I defer to you...

 

[bozz]

T = 15
S = 11-14
R = 10
Q = 10
P = 10
O = 8
N = 7.431789
M = 6-7
L = 4-5?
K = 2-3?
J = 1

Lol... exactly what I was trying to say
You might actually end up getting a worse "numerical" writing score... and then I can see people creating threads.. asking why Writing is a section on the MCAT 😀

 

[majik1213]

T = 15
S = 11-14
R = 10
Q = 10
P = 10
O = 8
N = 7.431789
M = 6-7
L = 4-5?
K = 2-3?
J = 1

suppose instead of each essay being worth 6 points they were worth 8 .. then you got your 1-15 scale:

1+1 = 2 => 1
1+2 = 3 => 2
1+3 = 4 => 3
1+4 = 5 => 4
1+5 = 6 => 5
1+6 = 7 => 6
1+7 = 8 => 7
1+8 = 9 => 8
2+8 = 10 => 9
3+8 = 11 => 10
4+8 = 12 => 11
5+8 = 13 => 12
6+8 = 14 => 13
7+8 = 15 => 14
8+8 = 16 => 15

there would be multiple ways to get an 8 .. (1,8) (8,1) (2,7) (7,2) (3,6) (6,3) (4,5) (5,4) <-- sum to 9, scale to 8

hence, a bell shaped curve

 

[majik1213]

you know, better yet, why not just COMBINE the VR and WS together into a "linguistic science" (LS) section as a measure of communicational skills? Like, just as General Chemistry receives more attention than Physics on the PS section (70%/30% on average) and just like Bio receives more attention than ochem on BS (not sure the ratio), why not have a verbal reasoning section that has like 80% VR / 20% WS weight?

I mean, the idea is that the WS section doesn't mean much to ADCOM anyways UNLESS you do poorly on it .. so if you do super well (like S or T) then if the ratio is 80% / 20%, the stellar performance doesn't very much HELP your overall score; however, if instead you eat **** on the WS, then you most certainly will HURT your chances

if I do say so myself, the idea is rather novel and would definitely put the importance of the WS into context by assigning it the kind of score every other section gets.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

THe thing is, if the WS was actually worth something, ppl would begine preparing for it and then it would become harder to score well. If it actually counted an R or S today might only be equivalent to a O. DOes that make sense?😕


I for one heard that the WS made nearly no difference in your terms of being accepted or not as long as you dont make a j or k. So i put no effort into studying for it and no effort into it on the actual test day. It was more of a break. I mean for one of my essays I was talking about mexicans and soccer🙂.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

The biggest problem with WS is that it is so subjective, whereas the other sections (yes even VR) are much more objective.

 

[Vihsadas]

The writing score isn't based on a curve..... is it? too many people get Ss and Ts

If it were hypothetically based on a numerical score which would have to be curved, most people who would otherwise get Ts would end up with 10s. So in the end, it really won't help. This is all assuming the writing score is currently not based on a curve.

According to my score report an S was 96.9 to 99.6 percentile and 99.6+ was a T. It is curved much like the rest of the exam. The reason the writing sample is on a different scale than the rest of the test is simply because it's not a multiple choice exam. The other three sections are multiple choice so the AAMC chose to use the same grading scale. The WS is not, so it chose letters instead of numbers.

 

[AWhitehair]

And just to be clear. I never said that schools don't care about the writing sample nor did I say communication is unimportant. I only said that the writing sample does not purely show your abilities to communicate as it is an extremely formullaic essay.

Oh brother, I never said that you said that schools don't care about the WS, nor do I say that you said that communication was unimportant. The argument was this: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=6252393&postcount=20 don't get personal or try to change your argument.

Yes, I never studied for the WS, but I did well. I owe that to the jobs I have held in the past which require excellent written and oral communication skills.

 

[bozz]

Oh brother, I never said that you said that schools don't care about the WS, nor do I say that you said that communication was unimportant. The argument was this: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=6252393&postcount=20 don't get personal or try to change your argument.

Yes, I never studied for the WS, but I did well. I owe that to the jobs I have held in the past which require excellent written and oral communication skills.

I'm hoping you're a girl

 

[Cegar]

The truth of it is that the MCAT is not meant as preparation for the practice of medicine.

The SAT isn't meant to be preparation for college.

The LSAT isn't preparation for law school.

They are tests that have developed to rank people's abilities at certain things. Medical schools want intelligent people.

A high verbal score on the MCAT wont mean that you'll be good at talking to people. It means that you can learn and think well.

 

[AWhitehair]

I'm hoping you're a girl

Of course! My Tom Welling avatar and profile pic she give that away. 😉

 

[kronickm]

The WS really is a joke. I have heard from the mouth's of no less than four Admissions committe members of allo med schools that the writing section plays almost no role whatsoever. One of them even said "We really don't even know what the letters mean."

On top of that, the way they grade it, that is, what they're looking for is a joke too. Just look at the way all the test prep companies prepare you. They have a formula to answer it. You don't even need to make any sense with your answer. Just explain the prompt in paragraph 1 with an example, explain the opposite of the prompt in paragraph two with an example, and then using whatever assinine, arbitrary demarcation you can think of, join the first two paragraphs. Your argument does not even have to make logical sense, it need only do these three things with specific examples. After taking the GRE, where the writing section means something, and is a much better judge of actual writing, logical, and argumentative talent, the MCAT WS is simply waste of time. It is put there to tire you out for Bio.

 

[majik1213]

The WS really is a joke. I have heard from the mouth's of no less than four Admissions committe members of allo med schools that the writing section plays almost no role whatsoever. One of them even said "We really don't even know what the letters mean."

On top of that, the way they grade it, that is, what they're looking for is a joke too. Just look at the way all the test prep companies prepare you. They have a formula to answer it. You don't even need to make any sense with your answer. Just explain the prompt in paragraph 1 with an example, explain the opposite of the prompt in paragraph two with an example, and then using whatever assinine, arbitrary demarcation you can think of, join the first two paragraphs. Your argument does not even have to make logical sense, it need only do these three things with specific examples. After taking the GRE, where the writing section means something, and is a much better judge of actual writing, logical, and argumentative talent, the MCAT WS is simply waste of time. It is put there to tire you out for Bio.

yeah and at the same time, I was complimented on my T at all of my interviews .. funny how things work ain't it .. truth is, you can say whatever you want about what you think you know, but you really have no idea and so you should remain open-minded about everything. Describing the section as a waste of time insults those who worked hard to do well on it.

 

[Ms. M]

I have no friggin clue. When I was in your position, VR made me feel like a complete idiot and that I had been "reading" the wrong way all my life. MCAT was the hardest test I've ever taken in my life. Med school gets better..