newbie question/clarification

[twenty-four]

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Hi -- I'm new to this board and not yet completely sure what I want to do in terms of education -- I just started a postbac program (~ 4 weeks ago) and it's going to take me probably 3 years to get through all the required premed courses, if I "do it right." (i.e. take the more demanding and thus more useful classes, do sufficient lab work, etc.) Oh yes-- I'm also working part-time (non-science job) to pay for the whole thing, and that will have to continue for the foreseeable future, although apparently I have one year of eligibility for a Stafford loan so I *might* be able to go full-time for a year. I got a humanities B.A. a year ago from a decent university about which the less said, the better. (Bottom line: I do not want to go to graduate school in the humanities, not even as an alternative to working at McDonald's.) I plan to study neuroscience, and I would also very much like to go to medical school and become a doctor, but there's some question of how I should go about these two goals. The MD/PhD thing is one obvious possibility.

I have one question to start off with: Is it possible to a) switch into an MSTP or b) be admitted to, and somehow work out a plan for getting through, medical school after you've started a PhD program? If possible, is it in any way desirable? I know that several alumni of the neurosci program at my home university are currently in med school, so I know you can do the two in series -- I just don't know to what extent you can do them in parallel.

Thanks in advance for your feedback, and good luck with interviews, etc. for those in process currently.

 

[Neuronix]

Greetings 24. I will try to answer your questions as best as I can.

For part a, switching from a PhD program to a MD/PhD program is rare and forbidden at some schools. While it is possible, I would avoid this route at all costs. The ones who are successful at doing this tend to be the ones who had high ugrad GPAs, tons of research experience, and high MCAT scores, and therefore could have gotten into MD/PhD programs anyway. The MD/PhD program isn't likely to consider your grad school performance very much in this scenario. If you must do this, I would definately go for the schools that have MD/PhD programs and talk to the MD/PhD directors about the possibility of switching when you interview.

For part b, switching from a PhD program to a MD program is also rare. It looks very bad to medical school committees to start one program and then jump to another program, because it shows a lack of commitment. Generally, switching from a PhD or MS program to med school doesn't happen. If you must do anything in this regard, I would go get a master's degree and then apply to medical school. It is possible to complete your PhD and apply to medical school, but keep in mind that your undergrad performance (if it is poor?) will also be evaluated with your application.

I think it may be difficult for you to get the lab experience necessary for MD/PhD. It is adviseable that you work in a lab for 2+ years before applying, though it might be possible after only a single year. A solution may be if you can find a job as a laboratory tech for a couple years, that may cover your bases both financially and for your application. Of course, you don't want to be a tech who has no interest in science. You can take these sorts of jobs in academic labs, learn alot about science, and get your name on papers.

Otherwise, I would focus on getting into medical school. Do what you need to do with both academic and extracirriculars, rock the MCAT, and go from there. It is much more common to switch into MD/PhD programs from an MD program, and this is adviseable. The only catch here is that typically the applicants have lab experience prior to coming into medical school. Often, especially if they have no or little research experience, they are doing some research during their MS1 year (possible, but difficult).

I hope I sufficiently answered your questions. Good luck!

 

[twenty-four]

Yes, you answered my questions. It seems you thought I was asking for advice on making myself look better to admissions committees, though, and that wasn't my concern. (But I'm good and nervous now! Ack.) Part of the concern was financial -- i.e. if I can't get into an MSTP, I could at least get a fellowship and/or employment in a lab or teaching in grad school, and that would give me time to save money before I have to pay for med school -- but also just basic curiosity, since it didn't seem totally impossible. Also, what I had in mind was trying to do the MD and the PhD together, but beginning in the PhD program rather than the MD -- not applying to grad school and then dropping out to go to med school. I'm not sure that was clear either.

That said, your response made sense and I see what you're getting at. And yeah, of course I'll have to start work in a lab at some point, ideally soon -- I made a nonbinding commitment to my current job for a while, since they went out of their way to let me cut back my hours and rearrange my schedule, so of course I can leave whenever I want but I'd like to stay through the school year at least, as courtesy.

There's nothing to stop me from washing glassware & making slides in the evenings, of course, other than the demands of my sanity. I don't see why science must keep bankers' hours anyway...

 

[Spacekat]

twenty-four

Neuronix's passing thought about the masters' seems ideal in your case. I'm doing pretty much what he implied right now - I work full time, do masters' stuff in the late afternoon and evening, including lab work (if you're doing your own project you can keep whatever hours you want). No idea how appealing this will be to adcoms, but it has a couple of objective advantages. There is the opportunity to do research while having money coming in both from work and from school. There is also the idea that most PhD programs have drastically reduced coursework requirements for those who already hold masters degrees, which will/would be helpful in making sure that I don't loiter in an MD/PhD program for 8+ years.

Hang in there and keep plugging. It sounds like you're on the right track.

 

[Airborne]

Maybe I'm the only one who disagrees with Neuronix in his assessment of entrance into an MD/PhD or MD program -

I will agree that entrance into a PhD program is generally considered a bit "beneath" an MD acceptance (No disrespect intended, I hold a PhD degree) - I really think this is more related to gunner type mentality that you will most defintely encounter in your preclincial and clinical years as an MD student! - Trust me on this.

Regardless of that - Neuronix mentions that switching from a PhD program is forbidden - I ask this then - unless one comes from the Harvard, John's Hopkins, UC schools type environment, how are you to really get the publications that the adcoms look for??? I can tell you that as a person from a liberal arts undergraduate school it can be mighty damned hard! And I didn't just wash glass to get my name on the pub!

Sure, if you are aiming for Penn, JH, Harvard or whatever IV league your heart may entail, I would say that jumping ship is definitely NOT in your favor, as you do not have the blue blood to begin with!

However, if you are a hard worker, do the right thing, can see beyond the algorithms and really want to translate bench research into clinical medicine - then an MD/PhD program will see beyond what ever limitations you may have - you simply need to convince them of that! If you're accepted to any - and I truly do mean any - MD/PhD program then you are well ahead of your peers - regardless of which ever med scool they may attend - trust me on this. Although I will say, good on you Neuronix - Penn is fantastic place to train - and many people are very, very envious of your position.

Regardless, if you really want it - only you can make it happen.

Sorry to the forum moderator (Oh that's right, does he have the PhD or MD title yet to be advising future physician scientists - Hmmm!)

Kind regards,

Airborne, PhD (a dime a dozen), MS IV

 

[Neuronix]

Originally posted by Airborne
Regardless of that - Neuronix mentions that switching from a PhD program is forbidden - I ask this then - unless one comes from the Harvard, John's Hopkins, UC schools type environment, how are you to really get the publications that the adcoms look for??? I can tell you that as a person from a liberal arts undergraduate school it can be mighty damned hard! And I didn't just wash glass to get my name on the pub!

Publications are not required for entrance into MD/PhD programs. I didn't have any until after I was accepted, and this did not factor into my acceptance. We have people who swing by SDN on occasion from UCSF, Hopkins, etc... who did not have publications from undergrad. Publications are always just a bonus. Some undergrads have them, some don't.

Sure, if you are aiming for Penn, JH, Harvard or whatever IV league your heart may entail, I would say that jumping ship is definitely NOT in your favor, as you do not have the blue blood to begin with!

Just because you go to an Ivy League med school does not mean you have blue blood. My father had a liver transplant when I was 8 and my mother is a schizophrenic. I grew up poor in the city, went to mostly URM schools, dropped out of HS, did alot of drugs, etc. I am the first member of my family to go to college for example, and all of my friends and family members are still doing/selling drugs and wasting their lives. I decided to clean myself up and went back to my state school and finally got a real full-time acceptance there after being rejected twice. For my first two years of college I worked 30+ hours/week to support myself. After that, I finally started getting some good scholarship money from my ugrad, and so I could finally get the couple years of research I needed to get into a MD/PhD program. I still had to take a year off after ugrad to get more research experience. The moral of my story is that I worked hard and here I am.

Although I will say, good on you Neuronix - Penn is fantastic place to train - and many people are very, very envious of your position.

(slight edit here after re-reading)
Of course I agree with what you are saying about MD/PhDs getting great educations at all varieties of MD/PhD programs. I was accepted to Penn very late off the waitlist and I decided to come here over Northwestern. I loved Northwestern and anyone who goes there will do well. I think the MSTP-certified programs are the way to go for a number of reasons, but the fact that they exist at pretty much only the top-ranked med schools (top-25) creates a stigma of elitism. Medical schools and research institutions get their rankings/prestige from the amount and quality of their medical research, and these places therefore are the best places to be for an MD/PhD.

Regardless, if you really want it - only you can make it happen.

Sorry to the forum moderator (Oh that's right, does he have the PhD or MD title yet to be advising future physician scientists - Hmmm!)

Kind regards,

Airborne, PhD (a dime a dozen), MS IV

The message I have overall here is: "Don't shoot the messenger." I talked to a number of students trying to switch from PhD programs into MD/PhD programs and very few were successful even though they were obviously qualified and intelligent. One comes to mind who was a Penn PhD who was unsuccessful. It is simply the way that it is, that it is very unfavorable for a current PhD student to switch into a MD/PhD program. This is why I suggested to the op either doing alot of research now, going into a MS program, or getting a PhD before applying to medical school or a MD/PhD program. If you or others have other specific advice about what the applicant should do, or have seen otherwise about the success of PhDs switching into MD/PhD, I'd be happy to hear it.

I have tremendous respect for PhDs and I don't understand why you call yourself a dime a dozen. I don't think I've ever tried to sound that way, but I'm sorry if I have.

As for me being a lowly MSI. Yes, I am. It gives me alot of time to sit around here and give people the advice they sometimes desperately need and cannot get elsewhere. When I don't feel that I can advise someone properly, I refer them to the other very busy connections that I have who are MD/PhDs. In any case, typically when I make a mistake, it gets pointed out within minutes. That's the advantage of an open system, and unless there's personal information to be shared, I like to communicate on this open forum-based system.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by Airborne
how are you to really get the publications that the adcoms look for???

Doing a fellowship year at NIH is a GREAT way to get a publication and having expereince at NIH is a HUGE plus applying for MD/PhD programs.

Originally posted by Airborne
Sorry to the forum moderator (Oh that's right, does he have the PhD or MD title yet to be advising future physician scientists - Hmmm!)

Neuronix and I have had our fair share of "disagreements" however, I think this statement is totally unecessary. He IS highly knowledgeable MD/PhD programs in general and he did volunteer to be the moderator which no one else was willing to do

Originally posted by Airborne
Airborne, PhD (a dime a dozen), MS IV

Since I'm the one who referred to certain PhD's being a "dime a dozen" I'll respond to this. Years ago when I was in my Master's program I had the option of pursuing the PhD. I passed all the written cums required for the PhD and had a project that could easily have become a dissertation. However, there were 2 post docs in the lab, working on their 3rd and 4th post docs experiences respectively, that STRONGLY advised me to take the master's and run like hell. Most importanly, I wanted clinically training that a PhD couldn't give me. While on the interview trail, I found out the reason for their advice. At that time, the MS was being recruited for in industry MUCH MORE than the PhD and today I know of far more underemployed/unemployed PhD's than folks with the MS.

So by saying the PhD in certain area's are "a dime a dozen" I certainly didn't intend to offend anyone however if you've read any of most posts, you know I believe in "kepping it real'. But if having a PhD was such a great career move, I imagine you wouldn't be in medical school right now. Now, I must get to class where I'm working on my non "dime a dozen" PhD in Molecular Pathology😉

 

[surge]

Sorry, but Neuronix is right.

I didn't have any pubs in undergrad either, nor did many of my classmates.

Airborne, no one here was attacking your PhD, but having (successfully) gone through the MD/PhD program application process, Neuronix knows what he is talking about. After all, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you started med school AFTER getting your PhD, right?

It would be misleading to tell twenty-four that things like these don't matter in the application process.


Twenty-four, why are you interested in an MD/PhD program, if you don't mind me asking?
As far as starting the PhD portion of the program first, even if you could arrange it, you would first need to be accepted into the MD/PhD program which is something you need the prior research experience for. Just FYI, many schools will let you only do 1 yr of medschool and then do the PhD.

Your best bet is getting an academic research job for a few years while you finish your postbac and then deciding whether you're really interested in research as a career.

Either way, good luck.

 

[twenty-four]

Hi Surge,

I'm not sure I have highly practical reasons for my interest in the MD/PhD -- some of you have raised compelling points about the virtues of MD-only or MD-plus-master's-plus-research activities. The MD/PhD has the advantage of being (apparently) fairly efficient and leading into multiple potential careers, and it seems like people learn a hell of a lot and really enjoy it. That's certainly one benefit.

I definitely want to do research in neuroscience. I like the flexibility that a medical background gives you in terms of work environment. I feel fairly strong communitarian obligations, and I think the greatest appeal is that I wouldn't only be working in an ivory tower, or for a pharmaceutical company or government lab, voltage-clamping rat brains day after day -- there would be the possibility of working directly with at least some other people who do not also have PhDs. But I also want to do the research, because I like challenges, and I think I've learned by now that I need to support the side of myself that deals with things rather than people for hours and hours on end.

I'll work on this before the admissions essays are due, I promise.

The master's degree thing -- only drawback to this is that there's a limited number of master's degrees you can get from the UW-Madison, which is where I am now. I think there's one in immunology. There might be one in chemistry, if I decide I really like chemistry. (I do really like chemistry, actually, but it wasn't exactly what I was planning to do -- although my chem prof tells us, to entice freshmen into the major, that there is "more money than chemistry students to give it to." Woo-hoo!) Neuroscience master's is no go. There are a hundred different biology PhD programs here, but very few of them want to admit people for a short-term, mercenary stay... Of course I could "go somewhere else," but that would take some planning, and I don't know how different things are at other universities or if the minimized master's options are fairly universal.

Anyway, I think I'm getting ahead of myself here. Thanks for all your feedback -- and Neuronix, thanks for sharing your story.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by twenty-four
although my chem prof tells us, to entice freshmen into the major, that there is "more money than chemistry students to give it to." Woo-hoo!)

An extra 7K was added to my predoctoral fellowship stipend because I had an MS in Chemistry. Just a little something to think about😉

 

[Airborne]

First of all -

I do appologize to Neuronix - I believe that I did misunderstand your comments - and in light of your plight, I will say that you are definitely few among many.

To others - No, My PhD was in medical school. And in 2 years.

Regardless - I do believe that I may have spoken a bit out of line - as for the MD/PhD process - I do concurr that Neuronix is _definitely_ cream of the crop -

I do think that, however, one should not think that they need to get into an IVY leagure place (and for that matter to have the qualifications to do so) in order to have a very successful graduate/med-school career.

Sure - who wouldn't love the prestigue of a great school? - but in the end, it really comes down to what you have done as a grad student when grant committees meet -

Regardless, I truly meant that one should NOT be inclinated to NOT elect to apply MD/PhD if their qualifications are less than stellar - Indeed - I can name innumerable scientists and fortuitous physicians who went VERY far because they truly had the innate desire to do so -

In the end, that is really what clinical investigation comes down to.

Best of luck to those who are in the process - It can destroy your soul.

With kind regards,

Airborne

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by Airborne
I do think that, however, one should not think that they need to get into an IVY leagure place (and for that matter to have the qualifications to do so) in order to have a very successful graduate/med-school career.

I think it's true that there's a certain amount of elitism in the MD/PhD thread.( i.e. doing an MSTP from an Ivy is somehow inherently "better" the an MD/PhD)

However, I am one of the few that is pursuing this program at the school that the best "fit" for me and I also won't be looking into MSTP because I get a better stipend deal using other funds. I'll probably happily end up at a Tier 3 school for medicine ( I have no plans to apply to any of the tier 1 schools due to my not wanting to relocate from DC) and a low ranked PhD program.

The bottom line is what you said, everything boils down to what you've DONE WHILE IN SCHOOL.😉