Next Time They Say It's No Longer Worth It...

[Incis0r]

Yeah, it is a DO school they were talking about in that thread though. All DOs are for-profit private schools, and a much higher percentage of DOs end up in primary care. DO is not a great way to go. I would have to say though, that the most expensive dental schools are even more than the most expensive DO schools though.

For example:
Western University DO school cost/year: $81,122.00
Western University dental school cost/year: $106,626.00

That 25,000 dollar a year difference makes $100,000 over 4 years.

That's a big difference.

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[Giovanotto]

Yeah, it is a DO school they were talking about in that thread though. All DOs are for-profit private schools, and a much higher percentage of DOs end up in primary care. DO is not a great way to go. I would have to say though, that the most expensive dental schools are even more than the most expensive DO schools though.

For example:
Western University DO school cost/year: $81,122.00
Western University dental school cost/year: $106,626.00

That 25,000 dollar a year difference makes $100,000 over 4 years.

What? Your example is a non-profit school for starters...

 

[Panis et Circenses]

What? Your example is a non-profit school for starters...

What I mean is that they are all PRIVATE schools. Meaning, they are set up with the goal to make money off people. As Incis0r said, the for-profit/ non-profit doesn't matter, somebody is making a lot of money.

 

[Incis0r]

What I mean is that they are all PRIVATE schools. Meaning, they are set up with the goal to make money off people. As Incis0r said, the for-profit/ non-profit doesn't matter, somebody is making a lot of money.

You made a very good point.

 

[Ollivander]

You made a very good point about the $100K difference b/w dent & med. I didn't want to distract from that, so I went back and edited my post to take out the non-profit vs. profit discussion. That way, people can focus on the point you made (very important one).

At what price point do you believe the opportunity cost isn't worth the investment made of going to dental school? Obviously I'm talking about OOS and private tuition costs here. I was just curious on your take since we've had conversations before on the topic.

 

[Incis0r]

At what price point do you believe the opportunity cost isn't worth the investment made of going to dental school? Obviously I'm talking about OOS and private tuition costs here. I was just curious on your take since we've had conversations before on the topic.

I think it's different for every person.

 

[Ollivander]

I think it's different for every person.

If you're awesome with people, confident, have a keen mind towards business, read DentalTown before bed every night, and dream about your practice...then heck, you'd great even with $500K debt.

If you hate the idea of debt to the point that it makes your stomach turn, and you yearn for the nice, relaxed life, then $250K might be your limit.

What are your thoughts?

I agree with what you're saying. I think I fall somewhere in the middle of those two mindsets. I'm a very aggressive business-minded type of person right now, although I am not naive enough not to be able to admit that part of me will wane as I age, as it will with most people. Eventually most people want to be able to live a comfortable life doing the things that make them happy, and they become less concerned about the monetary figure they're pulling down on an annual basis so they tend to work less.

I think for most people anything that's going to run you $400k+ (considering interest within this figure for the noobs) for cost of attendance is going to take a toll on your psyche and happiness over time, especially when coupled with the debt associated with buying a practice. It's a lot of opportunity cost and risk in general if you're not a business-minded individual. I've seen some people on other forums claim they bought out practices for astronomical figures where I can't even fathom how they plan to pay off in a reasonable amount of time that will allow for financial independence. So you could be paying off debt well into your 50's before you really see the return on your investment that you had hoped for when you chose this career. That's assuming you don't burn out along the way. Anything below $350K is very manageable from my personal perspective, but one of the reasons I made the switch is because I did not see myself gaining acceptance to my target cost-effective schools. Every time I see a post on this forum from someone accepting an OOS acceptance to MUSC or NYU I cringe a little.

Also I know it's been a while, but congratulations on your acceptance to UMD!

 

[Incis0r]

that part of me will wane as I age, as it will with most people. Eventually most people want to be able to live a comfortable life doing the things that make them happy, and they become less concerned about the monetary figure they're pulling down on an annual basis so they tend to work less.

Beautifully put.

I think for most people anything that's going to run you $400k+ (considering interest within this figure for the noobs) for cost of attendance is going to take a toll on your psyche and happiness over time, especially when coupled with the debt associated with buying a practice.

I could see this happening.

 

[distressstudent]

@Cello ....more evidence to support your thread: Pre-Meds are having literally the identical conversations we have here: https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/is-450k-or-500k-worth-it.1236175/

wake up sheeples

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Some argue that student loan forgiveness movement is gaining traction, however.

***TRIGGER WARNING***

Quick, millennial snowflakes, run to your nearest safe space! Big Hoss is about to rain some harsh reality down onto you. (Incis0r, don't worry. You have your head on straight.) Blanket student loan forgiveness is an economic and political impossibility for many, many reasons. (http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2016/08/15/mass_student_loan_forgiveness_is_a_terrible_idea.html) If you were duped by some politician (they absolutely know better) to think otherwise, you're a *****. It's called pandering for your vote and you fell for it.

I was listening to NPR a while back and they were discussing current loan forgiveness options through IBR. There are grumblings about it in Washington DC. Turns out forgiving those loans is going to cost way more than the government originally projected. Surprised? It also turns out that it's disproportionately helping graduate and professional students (read lawyers, doctors, and dentists), which is far from the original intent. Expect a cap on what will be forgiven. I predict around $40,000 to $50,000. I've discussed this elsewhere. (https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/ibr-and-loan-forgiveness.1231197/)

The long and short of it is that you signed your name on the loans and you better be prepared to pay them back.

Big Hoss

 

[Panis et Circenses]

***TRIGGER WARNING***

Quick, millennial snowflakes, run to your nearest safe space! Big Hoss is about to rain some harsh reality down onto you. (Incis0r, don't worry. You have your head on straight.) Blanket student loan forgiveness is an economic and political impossibility for many, many reasons. (http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2016/08/15/mass_student_loan_forgiveness_is_a_terrible_idea.html) If you were duped by some politician (they absolutely know better) to think otherwise, you're a *****. It's called pandering for your vote and you fell for it.

I was listening to NPR a while back and they were discussing current loan forgiveness options through IBR. There are grumblings about it in Washington DC. Turns out forgiving those loans is going to cost way more than the government originally projected. Surprised? It also turns out that it's disproportionately helping graduate and professional students (read lawyers, doctors, and dentists), which is far from the original intent. Expect a cap on what will be forgiven. I predict around $40,000 to $50,000. I've discussed this elsewhere. (https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/ibr-and-loan-forgiveness.1231197/)

The long and short of it is that you signed your name on the loans and you better be prepared to pay them back.

Big Hoss

I'm surprised that this comment is coming from someone who has their location showed as "California"!

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I'm surprised that this comment is coming from someone who has their location showed as "California"!

The state that just made it harder to buy tobacco, but easier to buy weed. Try figuring that one out.

Big Hoss

 

[blablabla1]

The state that just made it harder to buy tobacco, but easier to buy weed. Try figuring that one out.

Big Hoss

Weed isn't addictive (except for very rare cases), doesn't contain nicotine, has way less carcinogens, and has medicinal uses. I'm not seeing anything about that move that doesn't make sense.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Weed isn't addictive (except for very rare cases), doesn't contain nicotine, has way less carcinogens, and has medicinal uses. I'm not seeing anything about that move that doesn't make sense.

Tobacco isn't also linked to a 6 fold increase in the risk of developing schizophrenia/psychosis.

Big Hoss

 

[blablabla1]

Tobacco isn't also linked to a 6 fold increase in the risk of developing schizophrenia/psychosis.

Big Hoss

Only in people already genetically predisposed to the disorder. Though idk why I'm even arguing this lol, smoking is gross

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Only in people already genetically predisposed to the disorder. Though idk why I'm even arguing this lol, smoking is gross

Let's just agree that neither is a health super food, like broccoli or a $5 Little Caesers Hot and Ready pizza.

Big Hoss

 

[Panis et Circenses]

Tobacco isn't also linked to a 6 fold increase in the risk of developing schizophrenia/psychosis.

Big Hoss

Yup, in addition, it also has the same negative effects that tobacco smoke has for the lungs, skin teeth, etc.

 

[Panis et Circenses]

Weed isn't addictive (except for very rare cases), doesn't contain nicotine, has way less carcinogens, and has medicinal uses. I'm not seeing anything about that move that doesn't make sense.

Weed is addictive. Just because it doesn't have withdrawal symptoms (which they use to define other addictions) doesn't mean it's not addictive.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Weed is addictive. Just because it doesn't have withdrawal symptoms (which they use to define other addictions) doesn't mean it's not addictive.

The NIH website says upwards of 30% will develop some level of dependency. And the American Lung Association website points to research that marijuana second hand smoke has as many, if not more, carcinogens than tobacco smoke.

Big Hoss

 

[Panis et Circenses]

Sorry, I didn't want to put out misinformation. But it IS addictive and there ARE in fact withdrawal symptoms for those who try to get off it.
Here's the source: http://www.narconon.org/drug-abuse/marijuana/addictive.html

I read the NIH website, I would say that 30% is a lowball estimate. In fact, the current research shows that marijuana is actually MORE addictive than alcohol.

So to say marijuana isn't addictive is wrong.

 

[blablabla1]

Sorry, I didn't want to put out misinformation. But it IS addictive and there ARE in fact withdrawal symptoms for those who try to get off it.
Here's the source: http://www.narconon.org/drug-abuse/marijuana/addictive.html

I read the NIH website, I would say that 30% is a lowball estimate. In fact, the current research shows that marijuana is actually MORE addictive than alcohol.

So to say marijuana isn't addictive is wrong.

My bad, I went through a few sources and they all said that it isn't very addictive except in certain cases. Didn't check NIH though.

 

[Incis0r]

There are options out there if you look, and there are also plenty of opportunities in dentistry if you look.

 

[786783]

Just spent a few days with a buddy of mine.

He's 22 years old.
Debt. Free.
Bringing in an easy $110K/yr at least.
Traveling all over the country, first class, on his company's dime.
Suite rooms wherever he stays, courtesy of the company.
Enjoys a $200/day allowance for food/starbucks/meals/hotel spending.

He's been to Spain, Russia, Thailand, India, China, and Australia in the last few months. He's traveling to Switzerland soon.

His company is actively hiring.

My point is: there are options out there if you look, and there are also plenty of opportunities in dentistry if you look.

What does he do?

 

[LaughingGas]

I need a second job @Incis0r

 

[distressstudent]

What does he do?

not dentistry that's for sure

 

[Likkriue]

@Cello

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=226881

Honestly if I didn't know this was a Law forum, it would sound identical to the dental forum lol! Read it, sounds eerily similar. Would be a great link to add.

"just do PAYE 10% wage-slavery for life bro

think of it as a child support payment for the accidental pregnancy your law school refused to abort"

 

[PaulS]

I think one of the biggest problems is the astronomical student loans and interest. “The most powerful force in the universe is compound interest” – Albert Einstein

 

[Panis et Circenses]

Don't go based on these averages that are thrown out on some of these websites. Internet wage estimations of dentists' salary sucks too. Why? Because most dentists that are paid a salary are working in academic settings, public health, military, or are just starting. In reality most people have no clue what the average dentist makes. It's usually anywhere between 150K to 200K+ once you're established in your own practice.

You're exactly right. The way I've figured out how much dentists make is looking at the selling price of practices. Usually they will include how much their gross practice income is. From there, you can estimate around a 65% overhead or so, and from there you can see what the dentist will take home. In a majority of cases, private owners end up making around 175k based on what I've seen. Sometimes there will be a dentist making around 300k, but that's more rare, and those practices are a lot more expensive to buy. You also better have a great personality, and have taken a ton of CE courses to be able to do a lot of things that most dentists would refer to specialists, or else patients will stop coming to you and the money well will dry up.

 

[Ollivander]

You're exactly right. The way I've figured out how much dentists make is looking at the selling price of practices. Usually they will include how much their gross practice income is. From there, you can estimate around a 65% overhead or so, and from there you can see what the dentist will take home. In a majority of cases, private owners end up making around 175k based on what I've seen. Sometimes there will be a dentist making around 300k, but that's more rare, and those practices are a lot more expensive to buy. You also better have a great personality, and have taken a ton of CE courses to be able to do a lot of things that most dentists would refer to specialists, or else patients will stop coming to you and the money well will dry up.

This part can't be understated. The revenue stream drying up isn't even the worst of it. If you have a personality where you constantly hate or dread being at work, this will reflect over to the patient and in your work. This can result in a lawsuit if you screw up. The dentist I shadowed told me that your personality and the way you carry yourself while with a patient is everything, because if you screw up it's the relationship built and your personality will help through getting over the learning curve while just starting out. If you don't get along with your patients then expect the worst.

Ditto on the CE courses. That's where the money is heading folks. Stop referring everything out and start putting in time to educate yourself on these procedures. If it's a complex case that you don't feel comfortable with, then refer it out to a specialist and avoid the risk of a lawsuit if something happens. But referring out every case that comes through your office is lost income. Solid post.