NJWxMan

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I posted this in another forum, but thought this was a more appropriate place. Is anyone recieving much feedback from programs that they interview at?
 

t33sg1rl

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What kind of feedback are you hoping for?

My thank you notes to PD's are all unanswered. But my thank you notes to chief residents that I talked to on interview days have been answered positively and both have said something along the lines of they would like to have me in the program.
 

NJWxMan

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I am applying for psychiatry. I guess that feedback from the program about ranking is very common. Little did I know, especially since I haven't recieved any.
 
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Colba55o

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I have only interviewed at two places so far. After the first one, my interviewer sent me an email that day saying that he enjoyed the conversation. It wasn't a form letter (ie he mentioned things we talked about) but I did feel kind of weird getting a thank you letter before sending one.
In any event, I think this is incredibly rare. Think of the ratio of interviewers to interviewees; how would you expect them to send each of you feedback?
 

NJWxMan

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Usually it's the PD. Supposedly they contact their favorite applicants telling them that they will be ranked highly. Remember, in Psych, most programs interview only 60-80 people per year.
 

Babycatcher2B

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I went on an interview last week and the program director told me that there are strict rules of the Match. And just because I don't hear back from her, doesn't mean that she is not interested.
 

DonStracci

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I have received feedback from all the PDs with whom I've interviewed so far- maybe that's a Family Med thing. The last one took me by surprise because I got a handwritten thank you note from the PD BEFORE I'd sent mine.:confused:
 

Law2Doc

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I went on an interview last week and the program director told me that there are strict rules of the Match. And just because I don't hear back from her, doesn't mean that she is not interested.

Agreed. Programs are not allowed to tip their hands as to how they will rank. They can be hit with serious penalties if they do so. So I'd be less surprised about not getting feedback than by getting it.
 

peerie

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I have received letters and emails from some PDs before I sent mine. I admit it did feel funny but then I am still not used to being told that (in FM) we applicants can pretty much chose where we want to go. :confused:

That is just mind blowing to me, as I am used to being sort of a whipped med student who was grateful to be mildly tolerated on some rounds and services. Sometimes, I was even told to just 'get lost.' So, it is really refreshing to be treated like a professional person, with intelligence and something decent to offer. Ahhhh, family medicine. It's the best! :thumbup:
 

hippiedoc13

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Agreed. Programs are not allowed to tip their hands as to how they will rank. They can be hit with serious penalties if they do so. So I'd be less surprised about not getting feedback than by getting it.

Actually that's not really true. The same rules apply to both programs and applicants...you can say whatever you want, even volunteer where you plan to rank someone, but it is illegal to ask the other party how they plan to rank you.

That being said, most people/programs tread lightly around this issue, because they don't want to be perceived as trying to "game" the system or seem like they are trying to implicitly obligate the other party to reveal ranking info (which would be breaking the rules).
 

yaah

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True - either side can voluntarily reveal information about ranking. It just can't be done with any tacit agreements or coercion. A program can tell you, "You are ranked to match, we really want you to come here." But the program can't ask you for your response to that statement and they can't say, "We would rank you to match if you really want to come here," and they also can't ask where you are ranking them. I suppose they could ask what you think of their program, in a general sense.

Some programs use this as a way to justify not communicating with any applicants.

But I would not worry if a program doesn't contact you - while some programs do, many do not. It varies from program to program, specialty to specialty, and even year to year. The point is you rank the programs in the order you prefer them - don't let stuff sway you (like whether some program likes you more) that doesn't matter.
 

Law2Doc

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True - either side can voluntarily reveal information about ranking. It just can't be done with any tacit agreements or coercion. A program can tell you, "You are ranked to match, we really want you to come here." But the program can't ask you for your response to that statement and they can't say, "We would rank you to match if you really want to come here," and they also can't ask where you are ranking them. I suppose they could ask what you think of their program, in a general sense.

Some programs use this as a way to justify not communicating with any applicants.

Some med schools tell students this would be a violation. It's also on shaky ground if you read the NRMP rules literally, because neither party is permitted to ask for or make guarantees to the other, and no statements between the parties in terms of rank are permitted to be binding. And at the same time the rules require programs to be honest in all communications with the applicant. So it's not really possible to communicate about ranking with an applicant and not run afoul of one of these rules -- a program really cannot tell you they are ranking you to match, because if this is a guarantee it's a violation, and if it's nonbinding and they change their mind, it is arguably dishonest and a violation.

All I'm saying is don't expect ethical programs to go down this road. Not receiving feedback in terms of ranking is supposed to be the norm.
 

dillinja

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I don't understand how a program can tell you they will be ranking you highly this early in the interview season when they haven't even met half of their applicants ?
 

Law2Doc

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I don't understand how a program can tell you they will be ranking you highly this early in the interview season when they haven't even met half of their applicants ?

Since they cannot make guarantees, yet they cannot be dishonest to an applicant, they probably cannot ethically make such a statement. It's really a catch 22. They'd have to cage it in terms that make it nonbinding -- let you honestly know they aren't promising anything, and that the are free to change their mind. Most programs wouldn't bother going down this road of fuzzy non-promises.
 

Law2Doc

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I was straight up asked at my first interview if that program was my number 1 choice. I tactfully said: "Um, you're my first interview."

If you had a tape recorder, that interviewer could have gotten this program thrown out of the match for the next 3 years. That is blatantly against the rules.
 

yaah

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All I'm saying is don't expect ethical programs to go down this road. Not receiving feedback in terms of ranking is supposed to be the norm.

I think you're right, it is the norm. My interviews were 5 years ago now, but of the 10 I went on, I had two specifically tell me I was ranked to match. Another 3, I think, told me I was "a very strong candidate and they hope I match with them." The others said nothing, unless it was a, "we enjoyed meeting you" follow up to an email to the program director. I know I was ranked highly at at least two of these, because they called me after the match and asked why I ended up choosing a different program (so that they could evaluate their recruitment strategies).

I did actually have two programs who told me to let them know if I was seriously interested in their program, because that might impact their ranking. That is a violation.

I think the point is though that even if programs do communicate with you in this fashion, you should not let it influence your decision. Rank the programs in order that you prefer them. Just because a program wants you to come there doesn't mean you are better suited to it. You also shouldn't necessarily trust if a program says you are ranked to match.

To those curious, I would say that the only person who knows whether you matched at your #1 rank is you, and even if you didn't, you can always lie and tell people you did if that matters to you. ;) While it feels nice to match at your #1 choice, if it isn't really your #1 choice then what's the point?
 

Ashers

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If you had a tape recorder, that interviewer could have gotten this program thrown out of the match for the next 3 years. That is blatantly against the rules.

I was thrown off by the question, especially so early in the interview season, and I thought it was illegal, but I didn't think about that until after the interview was done.
 

dragonfly99

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ashers
technically it is against the Match rules...not illegal per se, but against the Match rules.
However, in reality programs will basically do what they want to you and ask you whatever they want pretty much...kind of like when you are a med student on rotations. Just don't let it affect you too much, and rank the programs however you want. It's just part of the game that some of them try to pressure you because they think you'll rank them higher then. Sometimes it is the sign of a weaker program, or at least a middle of the road one, vs. a better program which doesn't have to do this to fill up with strong applicants.
 

Samoa

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Some med schools tell students this would be a violation. It's also on shaky ground if you read the NRMP rules literally, because neither party is permitted to ask for or make guarantees to the other, and no statements between the parties in terms of rank are permitted to be binding. And at the same time the rules require programs to be honest in all communications with the applicant. So it's not really possible to communicate about ranking with an applicant and not run afoul of one of these rules -- a program really cannot tell you they are ranking you to match, because if this is a guarantee it's a violation, and if it's nonbinding and they change their mind, it is arguably dishonest and a violation.

All I'm saying is don't expect ethical programs to go down this road. Not receiving feedback in terms of ranking is supposed to be the norm.
Programs can tell you where you're ranked, if they want. You can tell them where you ranked them, if you want.

You can mislead and outright lie to each other about your rank list, and it is not a match violation in any way. Unethical, yes. A violation? No. The only thing you CAN'T do is ask each other where you'll be ranked.
 
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