No Flame-War Intended, but...

[MaximusD]

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Please consider what I am saying before getting angry...

I am applying for the first time to medical schools -- both MD and DO. I have decided that I am very satisfied with either degree and am able to buy into DO philosophy. This said, I have developed a few qualms about applying to newer schools. Some of these schools such as LECOM are not even recommended by the Penn State advisors because they often accept students with ridiculously low GPAs and MCATs. My question to the SDN community is whether these qualms are founded or whether they are just due to ignorance.

My 2 cents is that I feel that for 200,000 dollars of debt (or more) the institution better have a solid reputation. It is a very large investment to make on a whim and at this point... my first app cycle during my senior year... I feel that it would be better to not cut myself short seeing as I can reapply with an updated (and presumably better) transcript.

Any comments? PLEASE I am not trying to say that people that went to these schools won't make excellent doctors... I am simply wondering if others take pause before applying to schools such as LECOM, LECOM-BRadenton, and other new DO schools that have sprung up this year.

Thanks for your input... I am just hoping for an open dialogue.

Another question: Do DOs have trouble getting into competitive allopathic residencies? Would this depend on the DO school they go to... ie would a PCOM DO degree serve me better when matching than a LECOM DO degree..??

Thanks guys!

 

[group_theory]

The key point here is how YOU feel. Whether your feeling is based on reality or not really doesn't matter - if you apply and attend a school that you don't want to be there ... you'll be miserable as a student and as an alum, something which both you and the school wish to avoid.

LECOM is new, a little over 10 years old. It's alum are starting to finish residencies and fellowships and moving up the ranks. But it's new and it's alumni base is still small and growing (both numerically and also in position of power)

PCOM is over 100 years old ... and you'll find graduates all over the place. I've met PCOM alums who have done plastics fellowship at Mayo, ortho fellowship at Hopkins, Harvard fellowships, etc.

But it's not to say LECOM doesn't have any grads at places with good names. So go with your gut feeling because all the logic and argument in the world won't change how you feel.


P.S. Every year at PCOM, there's a huge crowd who are from Penn State.

 

[mommy2three]

if i had the option to applu anywhere i wanted to go i too would be hesitant about applying to a first year school. i would be concerned with professors and being the guinea pig so to speak....but that is just me personally.

from what i understand from my advisor who i spoke with extesively regarding securing an allopathic residency after an osteopathic degree it does not so much mater where you go. you will be required to take the usmle and need good solid lors as well as good solid performances in 3rd and 4th yr.

 

[Kuba]

I agree with you, OP. That is why LECOM is last on my list and I am actually holding off on the secondary because I landed a NSUCOM interview for mid-october and I want to wait to see if I get in there before I spend the 50 bucks and the energy for LECOM.

 

[Shinken]

.

 

[erleichda]

Please consider what I am saying before getting angry...

I am applying for the first time to medical schools -- both MD and DO. I have decided that I am very satisfied with either degree and am able to buy into DO philosophy. This said, I have developed a few qualms about applying to newer schools. Some of these schools such as LECOM are not even recommended by the Penn State advisors because they often accept students with ridiculously low GPAs and MCATs. My question to the SDN community is whether these qualms are founded or whether they are just due to ignorance.

My 2 cents is that I feel that for 200,000 dollars of debt (or more) the institution better have a solid reputation. It is a very large investment to make on a whim and at this point... my first app cycle during my senior year... I feel that it would be better to not cut myself short seeing as I can reapply with an updated (and presumably better) transcript.

Any comments? PLEASE I am not trying to say that people that went to these schools won't make excellent doctors... I am simply wondering if others take pause before applying to schools such as LECOM, LECOM-BRadenton, and other new DO schools that have sprung up this year.

Thanks for your input... I am just hoping for an open dialogue.

Another question: Do DOs have trouble getting into competitive allopathic residencies? Would this depend on the DO school they go to... ie would a PCOM DO degree serve me better when matching than a LECOM DO degree..??

Thanks guys!

Many people who are only applying D.O. will not apply to newer schools for the same reason as you. So it's your choice. Some people actually WANT to go to a newer school because it does have some benefits. But it's not for everyone and there's nothing wrong with that.

My other comment is about health professions advisors. While mine has been SO great, I've heard horror stories about these people. Several of my friends had advisors tell them not to apply at all or to specific places and they applied anyway, got in, and are now very happy. So just a word of caution about listening to everything your advisor says.

 

[clement]

if i had the option to applu anywhere i wanted to go i too would be hesitant about applying to a first year school. i would be concerned with professors and being the guinea pig so to speak....but that is just me personally.

from what i understand from my advisor who i spoke with extesively regarding securing an allopathic residency after an osteopathic degree it does not so much mater where you go. you will be required to take the usmle and need good solid lors as well as good solid performances in 3rd and 4th yr.

though connections never hurt, let it be said...especially for more competitive residencies/locations.

 

[LovelyRita]

Bottom-line, when comparing schools, look at their pass rates for Step 1 of the boards. This is a reflection of how well they are preparing you during the 1st couple of years.

 

[Darch]

Bottom-line, when comparing schools, look at their pass rates for Step 1 of the boards. This is a reflection of how well they are preparing you during the 1st couple of years.

does anyone know the pass rates for Step 1 of the boards for any of the D.O schools?

 

[It'sElectric]

First of all, I just want to say to the OP that your post was very reasonable, so don't worry about starting a flame war. If people get up in arms over your post, then they're overly hypersensitive.

I think your worries or concerns are valid and as another poster said, what's going to matter is how you feel about being at whatever school you end up at. That's why people continually say that the best school is the one that fits YOU (not Jim, or Jane, or whoever else)!

I personally felt the same way as you and wanted to go to a DO school that had a solid reputation, which is a part of the reason that my top 3 choices were actually the 3 oldest DO schools that each had a long standing history. A small part of me wanted to graduate from a school that current physicians had heard of and had good things to say about. For me, it matters. For others it doesn't, and that will work out just fine as well. If you work hard, get the grades and board scores, and truly show a passion for medicine, then things will inevitably work out (no matter what you want to go into).

 

[It'sElectric]

does anyone know the pass rates for Step 1 of the boards for any of the D.O schools?

Most of the individual school websites list their Step 1 board pass rates. Although, I would imagine that if it's somewhat below the national average, they might not advertise it.

 

[seismicCHICK]

the doctor i shadowed mentioned something about how some of the newer schools did have students who performed very well while they were on rotation with him. on the same note, he also mentioned how some students from older schools didn't do as well as he would have expected.

i honestly don't think it matters which school you go to because all these schools were accredited. im assuming they had to have passed the same "tests".

 

[Oculus Sinistra]

Please consider what I am saying before getting angry...

I am applying for the first time to medical schools -- both MD and DO. I have decided that I am very satisfied with either degree and am able to buy into DO philosophy. This said, I have developed a few qualms about applying to newer schools.

Another question: Do DOs have trouble getting into competitive allopathic residencies? Would this depend on the DO school they go to... ie would a PCOM DO degree serve me better when matching than a LECOM DO degree..??

Thanks guys!

I agree with you.

I don't want to apply to newer osteopathic programs like LECOM-B, TUCOM-NV, etc, either. I want something with proven history and time to work out the "kinks" in its educational programming ... like PCOM, NSUCOM, NYCOM, DMUCOM, etc.

I'd say MSUCOM but I'm out of state and... well... you know how it is... out-of-state tuition -- to hell with that.

As to your other questions:

Everybody has trouble getting into competitive allopathic residencies.

Since PCOM is older and more established, yes, I think a PCOM degree might give you a fraction of a better chance than LECOM.. but remember there are other factors (USMLE/COMLEX scores, med school grades, LORs, research, etc)

 

[Doctor Bagel]

It's not bad to not apply to every DO school out there. I applied to lots of DO schools but refused to apply to any new schools and to LECOM, for lots of reasons (not saying LECOM's necessarily bad, but I wouldn't be happy there). Going to older, well-established schools means that you'll have a more well-developed alumni network and that residency directors are more likely to be familiar with your school. How much that matters I don't know, but it can't hurt. Also, I think a brand new school would be too chaotic for me. Another issue is that the school won't get accredited until their first class takes the boards, so what happens if your school doesn't get accredited?

 

[Orthodoc40]

OP - I would also be hesitant to apply to very new schools whether they were allopathic OR osteopathic. There are some of both out there, yes??

Everybody - When you keep referring to LECOM being new, are you referring to both locations?

 

[Dancer20]

is LECOM-B not accredited yet???

 

[scpod]

is LECOM-B not accredited yet???

LECOM-B is fully accredited by the Department of Education of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and the American Osteopathic Association, Bureau of Education, Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation (COCA). So, you can also qualify for HPSP scholarships, but won't be able to participate in NHSC loans until the first class graduates in 2008. This is because it is a branch campus. Schools like VCOM, since they are not branch campuses, have only a provisional accreditation until they graduate their first class.

 

[scpod]

if i had the option to applu anywhere i wanted to go i too would be hesitant about applying to a first year school. i would be concerned with professors and being the guinea pig so to speak....but that is just me personally.

The first class is certainly a guinea pig, but that doesn't mean it's going to be bad. I'm in the third class. The best thing that I have seen so far is that the school is constantly making changes from year to year, but it is trying to make things better. Plus, many of the changes were things requested by students and the administration listened. This year, each PBL group is being given an opportunity to speak directly with the dean in order to convey their concerns or suggest changes. Several changes have been made already based on these meetings. Yes, sometimes it seems like things are in a constant flux, but it's reall great to have the faculty and administartion listen to the students. What it means is that things aren't always "set in stone." Personally, I like that.

As for professors, my school was able to lure away quite a few of the best around. A large portion of the Anatomy faculty actually came from the med school at USF. When they hired professors, they looked for those with experience teaching in med school. I know that some of the new DO schools located in smaller areas have trouble attracting faculty that have med school teaching experience, and that can be a problem. But Bradenton is within the metropolitan areas of Tampa, St. Pete and Sarasota-- a combined population of 3.3 million people. It isn't hard to attract professors to a resort area with lots to offer.

from what i understand from my advisor who i spoke with extesively regarding securing an allopathic residency after an osteopathic degree it does not so much mater where you go. you will be required to take the usmle and need good solid lors as well as good solid performances in 3rd and 4th yr.

You are not required to take the USMLE in most cases but a lot of students do it anyway because they want to see how they compare. Most advisors didn't go to med schools, aren't DOs or MDs, and never participated in the match or went through a residency. My advisor from undergrad probably learned more from me than I did for him when it came to the med school process because he was new at it. The old advisor that retired didn't seem to know any medical schools existed in the US other than our two in-state MD schools.

 

[med-i-cal]

Also, if you are looking at DO school sites and they list their average USMLE Step 1 scores, keep in mind that on average only half or less of a class take it. This usually skews the numbers toward the higher end since those who take it know they need to for an allo residency. The majority of grads going into the mainstay of DO residencies (read: primary care) usually opt out of the USMLE because there are a number of good programs in these areas.

 

[wook]

My other comment is about health professions advisors. While mine has been SO great, I've heard horror stories about these people. Several of my friends had advisors tell them not to apply at all or to specific places and they applied anyway, got in, and are now very happy. So just a word of caution about listening to everything your advisor says.

Very true. Mine was useless once I told him I only wanted to apply to Osteopathic schools. He pushed me toward applying to the state school where he has/had contacts, and when I politely advised him that my interest was solely in osteopathic schools, he stopped helping me. Oh well, I'm sure that there are some good advisors out there, but there a few bad apples.


Wook