No LOR from Research Advisor

[CavsFan2016]

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Hi guys, one more quick question before I submit my primary application later this week.

I have 2 years of research experience in a lab on campus, but I chose not to get a LOR from my research advisor. I struggled in the beginning stages of my time in the lab, and she said she could write me a solid letter but would have to include some of these negative aspects as well, so I decided to have someone else write a LOR instead. I was wondering how significantly this will impact my application given how important research is for many of the medical schools out there.

Thank you!

 

[Avicenna]

but would have to include some of these negative aspects as well

lol she sounds like a ****

 

[CavsFan2016]

lol she sounds like a ****

lol I'm just worried medical schools are going to look at all that time I spent in lab and think its a red flag since I don't have a LOR from her.

 

[Avicenna]

lol I'm just worried medical schools are going to look at all that time I spent in lab and think its a red flag since I don't have a LOR from her.

i'm going through the same thing. My PI is kind of an dingus and i'm afraid to ask for a lor bc i'm honestly worried she'll say no, or write me a crap one.

maybe see if you could get her to frame it in a positive way, and talk about how much you improved as opposed to how crap you were at first. if not, I'd avoid one from her.
yeah i've also heard not having your PI lor if you worked in a lab is a red flag.

 

[aldol16]

If you spent a significant amount of time in lab and/or it was a significant experience for you, it would be highly suspect to not have a letter from the PI. See if you can't talk to her about focusing about your growth. Since the negative aspects were at the beginning, she could mention those in the context of your growth over the past two years.

Also, it's highly unusual for a PI to come out and tell you that they will include negative aspects in your letter and I suspect there's something you're not telling us. What is the negative part? Struggling to get acclimated to the lab would not be looked upon unfavorably by a PI so I suspect there's more to this story.

 

[CavsFan2016]

If you spent a significant amount of time in lab and/or it was a significant experience for you, it would be highly suspect to not have a letter from the PI. See if you can't talk to her about focusing about your growth. Since the negative aspects were at the beginning, she could mention those in the context of your growth over the past two years.

Also, it's highly unusual for a PI to come out and tell you that they will include negative aspects in your letter and I suspect there's something you're not telling us. What is the negative part? Struggling to get acclimated to the lab would not be looked upon unfavorably by a PI so I suspect there's more to this story.

To be honest, she was just a tough Professor to work with. Here are the two main things that happened:

• She went on vacation for two weeks, and me and another student were in charge of taking care of the frogs involved in our research. A freak accident led to a significant portion of the frogs dying overnight. This wasn't something that we couldn't recover from though, just a set-back.
• A lot of small things. For example, I gave a presentation at a conference in Washington DC and took down my poster 30 minutes too early by accident. Once she found out, this set her off and she blew up at me.

After improving after that point, she told me she would love to write me a LOR but wanted to wait until I apply next year (I graduated 1 year ago). I kept her up to date on how I was doing and sent her an email letting her know I was applying for medical school now and would need her letter of recommendation - thats when she unexpectedly changed her mind about the recommendation. I would also note that there have been issues with taking care of the frogs in the past few years. In addition, I'm not the only one in her lab she has had problems with.

So would you suggest I downplay the research on my application? Maybe not even include it at all?

 

[Gryffindor20]

Is there anyone else in that lab from whom you could get a letter?

 

[CavsFan2016]

Unfortunately no, she was the only professor I worked with in the lab


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[Gryffindor20]

If I were you, I would sit down with her and explain the crucial importance of having a strong letter, one that emphasizes your strengths and your growth over the last two years, rather than dwelling on a few dead frogs. Just schedule an appointment to speak with her in person, bring your current resume and PS, and calmly explain your concerns. It is important in this meeting that you address her concerns, too. Let her know that you take full responsibility for any mistakes you made during your time in her lab, and explain how you learned from those mistakes and have grown in your meticulousness as a result. It could be that she feels, for whatever reason, that you never really accepted responsibility for your missteps in her lab or that you tried to minimize them, and you may need to set that straight. Meet with her in person, make clear your appreciation for all of the teaching and opportunity that she gave to you, tell her (show rather than tell, if you can) how much you have grown as a result of your past mistakes, and then impress upon her the importance of having a strong letter for medical school applications. That's really all you can do, in my opinion.

 

[Lawpy]

If you spent a significant amount of time in lab and/or it was a significant experience for you, it would be highly suspect to not have a letter from the PI. See if you can't talk to her about focusing about your growth. Since the negative aspects were at the beginning, she could mention those in the context of your growth over the past two years.

Also, it's highly unusual for a PI to come out and tell you that they will include negative aspects in your letter and I suspect there's something you're not telling us. What is the negative part? Struggling to get acclimated to the lab would not be looked upon unfavorably by a PI so I suspect there's more to this story.

This is true but i think the only schools that care about research letters and would view an absence of one to be a red flag are the Top 20 research powerhouses. I see no reason for other schools to care even if the research is marked to be most significant.

OP, you kinda got yourself stuck in a messy situation since your PI seems to be a control freak with abnormally high expectations for an undergrad. Normally in these cases, the idea is to get a postdoc to write the letter and have the PI cosign it.

Unfortunately no, she was the only professor I worked with in the lab


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That lab only had undergrads and the PI? No grad students or postdocs?

 

[bananafish94]

I personally wouldn't get a recommendation from her, or anybody who shows any hesitation about writing one. I worked in one lab for two years but almost never interacted with the PI, so I simply didn't get a letter from her. I ended up getting one from a PI who I worked with directly for a shorter amount of time. You need to control the few things that you can in this process and avoid doing something that will leave you questioning where you went wrong.


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[CavsFan2016]

I personally wouldn't get a recommendation from her, or anybody who shows any hesitation about writing one. I worked in one lab for two years but almost never interacted with the PI, so I simply didn't get a letter from her. I ended up getting one from a PI who I worked with directly for a shorter amount of time. You need to control the few things that you can in this process and avoid doing something that will leave you questioning where you went wrong.


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Thank you for the advice guys. It was a difficult situation. Given the fact there were no other post docs or grad students in the lab, I think the best thing to do is to minimize the research I've done and move forward with my application. Please let me know if there is anything else I should do.

 

[bananafish94]

Thank you for the advice guys. It was a difficult situation. Given the fact there were no other post docs or grad students in the lab, I think the best thing to do is to minimize the research I've done and move forward with my application. Please let me know if there is anything else I should do.

I wouldn't minimize the research you've done! Doing research for two years is neat and should definitely be in your application. This is just me, a non-expert, but I don't think it's a huge deal if you don't have a letter from your PI. From my experience in the world of research, Ph.D applications, grants, etc. are generally written in a way that acknowledges that students and PIs sometimes don't have particularly close relationships. But the best first step would be to start an honest dialogue with your PI.

 

[CavsFan2016]

If I were you, I would sit down with her and explain the crucial importance of having a strong letter, one that emphasizes your strengths and your growth over the last two years, rather than dwelling on a few dead frogs. Just schedule an appointment to speak with her in person, bring your current resume and PS, and calmly explain your concerns. It is important in this meeting that you address her concerns, too. Let her know that you take full responsibility for any mistakes you made during your time in her lab, and explain how you learned from those mistakes and have grown in your meticulousness as a result. It could be that she feels, for whatever reason, that you never really accepted responsibility for your missteps in her lab or that you tried to minimize them, and you may need to set that straight. Meet with her in person, make clear your appreciation for all of the teaching and opportunity that she gave to you, tell her (show rather than tell, if you can) how much you have grown as a result of your past mistakes, and then impress upon her the importance of having a strong letter for medical school applications. That's really all you can do, in my opinion.

Thank you for taking the time to explain this to me. Unfortunately, the professor is very difficult to get a response from, and my undergraduate college is 300 miles away. I am also certain that even after such a meeting, I would still have reservations about how she would make me come across in her letter of recommendation. I think the best decision to make at this point would be to minimize the reserach and focus on other aspects of my application, including my clinical and varsity soccer experience. Please let me know if you have any other suggestions!

 

[LizzyM]

Hi guys, one more quick question before I submit my primary application later this week.

I have 2 years of research experience in a lab on campus, but I chose not to get a LOR from my research advisor. I struggled in the beginning stages of my time in the lab, and she said she could write me a solid letter but would have to include some of these negative aspects as well, so I decided to have someone else write a LOR instead. I was wondering how significantly this will impact my application given how important research is for many of the medical schools out there.

Thank you!

Unless you are shooting for the top 20 research schools I think it wise to downplay but not exclude your research (don't list it as a meaningful experience) and let it go at that. Some top 20s that are looking for a reason to cut you (as they have to cut 85% or more pre-interview) will use that to find fault with your application but schools that put less emphasis on research experience of the student body will not make a big deal of the lack of a LOR from the PI.

 

[CavsFan2016]

I wouldn't minimize the research you've done! Doing research for two years is neat and should definitely be in your application. This is just me, a non-expert, but I don't think it's a huge deal if you don't have a letter from your PI. From my experience in the world of research, Ph.D applications, grants, etc. are generally written in a way that acknowledges that students and PIs sometimes don't have particularly close relationships. But the best first step would be to start an honest dialogue with your PI.

My reserach experience was a positive experience, but if there is a possibility its going to be a red flag on my application, I would rather minimize my discussion of it on the application. Thank you though

 

[CavsFan2016]

Unless you are shooting for the top 20 research schools I think it wise to downplay but not exclude your research (don't list it as a meaningful experience) and let it go at that. Some top 20s that are looking for a reason to cut you (as they have to cut 85% or more pre-interview) will use that to find fault with your application but schools that put less emphasis on research experience of the student body will not make a big deal of the lack of a LOR from the PI.

Thank you for the advice. With my stats (3.65 sGPA, 517 MCAT) I wasn't planning on an acceptance from a top 20 school, so hopefully this will not significantly hurt me at the low and mid-tier schools.

 

[Lawpy]

Just to play devil's advocate, the issue with this OP was he/she started off poorly and the PI would write about that. But how did he/she end up? Would the PI the he/she developed into a competent researcher? So often schools get these glowing recommendation without a critical evaluation. I do not think having such a letter is a bad thing as I think it may be sincere and accurate. My 2 cents

The problem with that is it gives professors an incentive to write bad letters freely and openly, even if they find nothing bad about the applicant. Bad letters can be used to justify the critical evaluation criterion suggested by AAMC

 

[LizzyM]

Just to play devil's advocate, the issue with this OP was he/she started off poorly and the PI would write about that. But how did he/she end up? Would the PI the he/she developed into a competent researcher? So often schools get these glowing recommendation without a critical evaluation. I do not think having such a letter is a bad thing as I think it may be sincere and accurate. My 2 cents

Sadly, "sincere and accurate" will get you no where.

The LORs have become worthless because no one will write a criticism of an applicant because a negative is so rare that it becomes a red flag and a reason to cut an applicant. It has been a downward spiral for a few decades now. With the resources to interview only 10-20% of the applicants, finding reasons not to interview thousands of applicants who have grades and scores above the minimum becomes a sad reality and a letter that goes into details about the applicant's misadventure with the frogs will not go over well, nor will the inability to follow simple instructions about a poster presentation.

 

[CavsFan2016]

Just to play devil's advocate, the issue with this OP was he/she started off poorly and the PI would write about that. But how did he/she end up? Would the PI the he/she developed into a competent researcher? So often schools get these glowing recommendation without a critical evaluation. I do not think having such a letter is a bad thing as I think it may be sincere and accurate. My 2 cents

I did significantly improve from the beginning. She said I was prepared for medical school and had made leaps in progress my last semester. This is what she emailed me late in my senior year:

"Sorry, you caught me in the middle of rushing about and not thinking. I will absolutely write you a letter but want to explain to you the reasons why I would like to wait a year before I do so. When are you free to meet?"

After keeping in touch with her over the past year, I emailed her about writing the LOR this summer. This was the response:

"I would be happy to write you a letter but It is my responsibility to be honest about your performance in my lab, and report on both the good and the bad. That being said, since most places look for extremely positive letters, I think you might be better served by asking someone more recent who can comment on your performance over this past year."

To me, that sounds like a red flag for a letter of recommendation. Therefore, I decided to go with my general chemistry professor who I was very close with instead.

 

[Lawpy]

Sadly, "sincere and accurate" will get you no where.

The LORs have become worthless because no one will write a criticism of an applicant because a negative is so rare that it becomes a red flag and a reason to cut an applicant. It has been a downward spiral for a few decades now. With the resources to interview only 10-20% of the applicants, finding reasons not to interview thousands of applicants who have grades and scores above the minimum becomes a sad reality and a letter that goes into details about the applicant's misadventure with the frogs will not go over well, nor will the inability to follow simple instructions about a poster presentation.

This is why negative admissions is a very bad thing that should be overhauled. It isn't even accurate when applicants with flaws and negatives still get interviews and acceptances, while seemingly perfect applicants (with strong stats. ECs, letters, essays etc) get 0 interviews/acceptances because of a bad school list (like only low yield and OOS state schools).

 

[Avicenna]

Sadly, "sincere and accurate" will get you no where.

The LORs have become worthless because no one will write a criticism of an applicant because a negative is so rare that it becomes a red flag and a reason to cut an applicant. It has been a downward spiral for a few decades now. With the resources to interview only 10-20% of the applicants, finding reasons not to interview thousands of applicants who have grades and scores above the minimum becomes a sad reality and a letter that goes into details about the applicant's misadventure with the frogs will not go over well, nor will the inability to follow simple instructions about a poster presentation.

This is why we need to get rid of the Lor part in the app!

 

[CavsFan2016]

This is why we need to get rid of the Lor part in the app!

Its just a shame that all of the dedication and sacrifices I have made to perform well in this lab will all be nullified on my application. Fortunately, it was a fantastic experience that provided me with a lot of personal growth, but its a shame that medical schools won't be able to see that.

 

[futuremdforme]

I wouldn't push to get a LOR from her because she's clearly stated that she can't write you a positive one. That's actually good that she told you. A lot of people would write a so-so letter.

I do think it is disappointing that she kept you on for 2 years and won't write you a good letter though. I think if she wasn't happy with your work, she could have suggested you find a new experience elsewhere.

 

[CavsFan2016]

Sadly, "sincere and accurate" will get you no where.

The LORs have become worthless because no one will write a criticism of an applicant because a negative is so rare that it becomes a red flag and a reason to cut an applicant. It has been a downward spiral for a few decades now. With the resources to interview only 10-20% of the applicants, finding reasons not to interview thousands of applicants who have grades and scores above the minimum becomes a sad reality and a letter that goes into details about the applicant's misadventure with the frogs will not go over well, nor will the inability to follow simple instructions about a poster presentation.

Thank you all for your advice. I am glad I caught this before I submitted my application.

 

[Chromium Surfer]

Also OP just wanted to let you know that a 3.65 with with a 517 is actually quite competitive. Your GPA is at or below the 1oth percentile for most Top 2o's but you have a stellar MCAT and if you other unique activities that also strengthens your case. Although this fiasco with your PI definitely complicates things. Best of luck with your app cycle!

 

[CavsFan2016]

Also OP just wanted to let you know that a 3.65 with with a 517 is actually quite competitive. Your GPA is at or below the 1oth percentile for most Top 2o's but you have a stellar MCAT and if you other unique activities that also strengthens your case. Although this fiasco with your PI definitely complicates things. Best of luck with your app cycle!

Thank you! Here is a link to the rest of my stats if you are interested in giving me feedback on my school list: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...a-517-mcat-school-list.1206833/#post-17862831

 

[Chromium Surfer]

Thank you! Here is a link to the rest of my stats if you are interested in giving me feedback on my school list: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...a-517-mcat-school-list.1206833/#post-17862831

I am not the most qualified to offer feedback on school lists haha. I just have a general idea of what makes a good app, so I would have to defer to the more seasoned posters and adcom members. Faha is very knowledgeable and also commented on your list, so thats one good resource!

 

[CavsFan2016]

I am not the most qualified to offer feedback on school lists haha. I just have a general idea of what makes a good app, so I would have to defer to the more seasoned posters and adcom members. Faha is very knowledgeable and also commented on your list, so thats one good resource!

Thank you! Just thought I'd ask haha - appreciate the feedback

 

[LizzyM]

This is why negative admissions is a very bad thing that should be overhauled. It isn't even accurate when applicants with flaws and negatives still get interviews and acceptances, while seemingly perfect applicants (with strong stats. ECs, letters, essays etc) get 0 interviews/acceptances because of a bad school list (like only low yield and OOS state schools).

How is this any different than a HS senior with a SAT of 1000 and a 3.1 GPA applies to Yale, Harvard, Princeton, Penn, Duke, Emory, Rice, Hopkins and cries for not having been admitted anywhere? The difference is that a HS senior can usually find some institution of higher learning, even a community college, if they apply wisely whereas there isn't the same safety net (not counting Caribbean) for medical school applicants.

 

[777137]

Unless you are shooting for the top 20 research schools I think it wise to downplay but not exclude your research (don't list it as a meaningful experience) and let it go at that. Some top 20s that are looking for a reason to cut you (as they have to cut 85% or more pre-interview) will use that to find fault with your application but schools that put less emphasis on research experience of the student body will not make a big deal of the lack of a LOR from the PI.

On this note, if I only worked with a professor for one summer (300 hours) and did a poster with the other members of my team (there were 10 of us), would it be weird not to have a letter from him? The work we did was fairly independent of him, so I was probably working with him for less than half the project (which is weird I know). He was a plant ecologist and we were studying something a little out of his area, so he was doing other stuff while we worked on our thing. I think I have stronger letters elsewhere, having a good relationship with a majority of my professors. I have also heard he is terrible about getting the actual letter out (a friend said he had to find another writer because our prof would not answer his emails).

I would like to be able to talk about my research, though, because it was important to me, but if I can't, ill just make it a side note and talk about one of my other experiences. It's unfortunate, though, since my only state school is top 20 (Madison), which would make it difficult to get into since you mentioned they are more research oriented. In about two summers I have 600ish hours total, so it isn't a small part of my app.

 

[Goro]

I don't believe that it will have a bad effect. Keep in mind that even NIH forms for post-docs have space available for you to list LOR writers other than the PI, knowing full well that grads students and post-docs sometime shave poisonous relationships with their mentors.

Also keep in mind that med schools want evidence of your intellectual prowess, not whether you're good in the lab. We're not looking for grad students (although we do like student researchers in our labs).

Hi guys, one more quick question before I submit my primary application later this week.

I have 2 years of research experience in a lab on campus, but I chose not to get a LOR from my research advisor. I struggled in the beginning stages of my time in the lab, and she said she could write me a solid letter but would have to include some of these negative aspects as well, so I decided to have someone else write a LOR instead. I was wondering how significantly this will impact my application given how important research is for many of the medical schools out there.

Thank you!

 

[CavsFan2016]

I don't believe that it will have a bad effect. Keep in mind that even NIH forms for post-docs have space available for you to list LOR writers other than the PI, knowing full well that grads students and post-docs sometime shave poisonous relationships with their mentors.

Also keep in mind that med schools want evidence of your intellectual prowess, not whether you're good in the lab. We're not looking for grad students (although we do like student researchers in our labs).

Thank you for the advice. I think I am going to remove my research as a "meaningful experience" on the works/activite section of my application but otherwise keep the hours and description. I am feeling much better about this now.

 

[itsogre]

To be honest, she was just a tough Professor to work with. Here are the two main things that happened:

• She went on vacation for two weeks, and me and another student were in charge of taking care of the frogs involved in our research. A freak accident led to a significant portion of the frogs dying overnight. This wasn't something that we couldn't recover from though, just a set-back.
• A lot of small things. For example, I gave a presentation at a conference in Washington DC and took down my poster 30 minutes too early by accident. Once she found out, this set her off and she blew up at me.

After improving after that point, she told me she would love to write me a LOR but wanted to wait until I apply next year (I graduated 1 year ago). I kept her up to date on how I was doing and sent her an email letting her know I was applying for medical school now and would need her letter of recommendation - thats when she unexpectedly changed her mind about the recommendation. I would also note that there have been issues with taking care of the frogs in the past few years. In addition, I'm not the only one in her lab she has had problems with.

So would you suggest I downplay the research on my application? Maybe not even include it at all?

good lord she sounds awful :/ this is extremely unprofessional on her part too - part of mentoring undergrad is being willing to tolerate their mistakes with good grace.

I would not ask her for a letter of recommendation.

 

[CavsFan2016]

good lord she sounds awful :/ this is extremely unprofessional on her part too - part of mentoring undergrad is being willing to tolerate their mistakes with good grace.

I would not ask her for a letter of recommendation.

What is done is done. :/ I learned a lot from it which is the main thing. Just trying to prepare best going forward. Thanks for your input.

 

[aldol16]

Thank you for the advice. With my stats (3.65 sGPA, 517 MCAT) I wasn't planning on an acceptance from a top 20 school, so hopefully this will not significantly hurt me at the low and mid-tier schools.

Given the email she sent you, you should not ask her for a letter. If she's telling you to ask someone else, that means that she has doubts about whether she can write you a good letter (or she's lazy and wants to worm her way out of it) - either way, it probably won't be good. I would not downplay the research experience - especially if you got a poster from it and learned/grew from it. Somebody in an interview might ask you why you don't have a letter from your PI since you were there for 2 years and obviously learned a lot from it so you might want to be ready to answer that question. Otherwise, feel free to talk about your research!

 

[CavsFan2016]

Given the email she sent you, you should not ask her for a letter. If she's telling you to ask someone else, that means that she has doubts about whether she can write you a good letter (or she's lazy and wants to worm her way out of it) - either way, it probably won't be good. I would not downplay the research experience - especially if you got a poster from it and learned/grew from it. Somebody in an interview might ask you why you don't have a letter from your PI since you were there for 2 years and obviously learned a lot from it so you might want to be ready to answer that question. Otherwise, feel free to talk about your research!

I've heard from multiple people saying that giving significant importance to your research but not having a LOR from your research advisor is a red flag. Do you not think that this would be the case?

 

[aldol16]

I've heard from multiple people saying that giving significant importance to your research but not having a LOR from your research advisor is a red flag. Do you not think that this would be the case?

Well you said you weren't aiming for the top research powerhouse schools in the country, right? If it's really a meaningful experience to you, then you should mark it as such. Just be ready to answer the question above. I think you should complete this application so that it conveys what you want it to say, not what you think they want to hear.

 

[Lawpy]

How is this any different than a HS senior with a SAT of 1000 and a 3.1 GPA applies to Yale, Harvard, Princeton, Penn, Duke, Emory, Rice, Hopkins and cries for not having been admitted anywhere? The difference is that a HS senior can usually find some institution of higher learning, even a community college, if they apply wisely whereas there isn't the same safety net (not counting Caribbean) for medical school applicants.

Sorry I'm not following the comparison. The example you mentioned is basically someone with poor academics trying to unrealistically aim high but has a safety net of going to a community college. I was just referring to how someone with strong credentials can fail to get in anywhere because of having a bad school list (which doesn't happen in college admissions).

Also, I'm lost how someone with some negative red flags can get an interview and acceptance in a negative admissions process, especially if admissions is willing to search for the negative attributes as a reason to reject the applicant. That still doesn't make much sense especially since ideally, fewest mistakes = zero mistakes.

But I digress! It's a topic for another day.

 

[CavsFan2016]

Well you said you weren't aiming for the top research powerhouse schools in the country, right? If it's really a meaningful experience to you, then you should mark it as such. Just be ready to answer the question above. I think you should complete this application so that it conveys what you want it to say, not what you think they want to hear.

It definitely was a meaningful experience for me. You are absolutely right, thank you. I just wanted to make sure that admission committees wouldn't be taking my experiences the wrong way.

 

[LizzyM]

Sorry I'm not following the comparison. The example you mentioned is basically someone with poor academics trying to unrealistically aim high but has a safety net of going to a community college. I was just referring to how someone with strong credentials can fail to get in anywhere because of having a bad school list (which doesn't happen in college admissions).

Also, I'm lost how someone with some negative red flags can get an interview and acceptance in a negative admissions process, especially if admissions is willing to search for the negative attributes as a reason to reject the applicant. That still doesn't make much sense especially since ideally, fewest mistakes = zero mistakes.

But I digress! It's a topic for another day.

I see someone with strong credentials and a bad school list being the equivalent of having a list with too many reaches and no target or safety schools.

Not sure what a "negative red flag" is. Sometimes we accept some small flaws in an applicant if we think that there are some attributes that the candidate brings to the table that would be otherwise lacking in the class and that are important to us. For example, not having any research experience or not having a PI letter might be a negative but having served in the US Military or the Peace Corps might be enough to counter-balance that negative.

 

[Lawpy]

I see someone with strong credentials and a bad school list being the equivalent of having a list with too many reaches and no target or safety schools.

Not sure what a "negative red flag" is. Sometimes we accept some small flaws in an applicant if we think that there are some attributes that the candidate brings to the table that would be otherwise lacking in the class and that are important to us. For example, not having any research experience or not having a PI letter might be a negative but having served in the US Military or the Peace Corps might be enough to counter-balance that negative.

Hm that's interesting because it'd seem that a bad school list (like too many low yields) can serve as a safety net for medical school admissions. I guess resource management rules that out effectively.

Yeah that was redundant 😛 but I meant like something similar to a 3.2 GPA (no trends), <27 MCAT (but ORM in both cases) but did something extraordinary. From the example you have mentioned, it seems like admissions is really just comparing pros and cons for each applicant and quickly determining the net benefit the applicant can provide to a class.

It's a good approach but it seems to run counter to the negative admissions principle where adcoms are actively looking for negatives as reasons to reject. Maybe some positives are just too good to be overcome by slight negatives (like Military, Peace Corps you have mentioned as well as Rhodes/Gates/Marshall etc.)? On the flip side, something like a cheating IA can't be overcome by any positive.

 

[LizzyM]

Sometimes we say "High risk/high reward". We might be taking a risk with someone with a 3.2/26 but they might bring some experiences to the table that we would not otherwise have: e.g. URM combat medic who grew up in foster care and is now employed in a wet lab at the VA during a glide year and has a LOR from a department chair at our school.

 

[Lawpy]

Sometimes we say "High risk/high reward". We might be taking a risk with someone with a 3.2/26 but they might bring some experiences to the table that we would not otherwise have: e.g. URM combat medic who grew up in foster care and is now employed in a wet lab at the VA during a glide year and has a LOR from a department chair at our school.

Okay thanks! Risk/reward analysis is more reassuring, and it's good to think of admissions as low risk/high reward.

 

[LizzyM]

Okay thanks! Risk/reward analysis is more reassuring, and it's good to think of admissions as low risk/high reward.

There are some applicants that at least some adcom members are willing to take a chance on. Others can be risk adverse and won't give an applicant an opportunity if the risk of failure seems too high. Sort of like taking someone to the OR for surgery that will improve quality of life but where there is a 7% chance that they will die on the table and an even higher probability that you will have many sleepless nights dealing with non-fatal complications.

 

[777137]

I see someone with strong credentials and a bad school list being the equivalent of having a list with too many reaches and no target or safety schools.

Not sure what a "negative red flag" is. Sometimes we accept some small flaws in an applicant if we think that there are some attributes that the candidate brings to the table that would be otherwise lacking in the class and that are important to us. For example, not having any research experience or not having a PI letter might be a negative but having served in the US Military or the Peace Corps might be enough to counter-balance that negative.

Mind elaborating on what the difference is between high and low risk?

 

[LizzyM]

Mind elaborating on what the difference is between high and low risk?

Low risk of flunking out would be the applicant with above average grades and scores, evidence of a good work ethic, strong time management skills, reasonable expectations of what it means to have a career in medicine based on personal experiences acquired as an adult (not, "I shadowed by grandpa when I was 8 and therefore I know what it is to be a doctor"), capacity for self-reflection, able to give and receive feedback and learn from it, good self-care and resilience in tough times.

High risk of flunking out or dropping out due to lack of motivation would be the opposite of the attributes listed above.

 

[Lawpy]

There are some applicants that at least some adcom members are willing to take a chance on. Others can be risk adverse and won't give an applicant an opportunity if the risk of failure seems too high. Sort of like taking someone to the OR for surgery that will improve quality of life but where there is a 7% chance that they will die on the table and an even higher probability that you will have many sleepless nights dealing with non-fatal complications.

Well let's hope that at least one of the adcom members is a gambler who loves taking high risks 😏😏

 

[777137]

Well let's hope that at least one of the adcom members is a gambler who loves taking high risks 😏😏

Amen, let the odds ever be in our favor

 

[aldol16]

Well let's hope that at least one of the adcom members is a gambler who loves taking high risks 😏😏

Most people don't tend to be completely risk averse or risk-taking. They're somewhere on the spectrum. If there's one thing neuroeconomics tells us, it's that.